My problem with Stub in the mirror is that it's good while you're ahead, medium or worse while you're even, and bad while you're behind. Something that helps us catch up when things are spiralling is more appealing. Usually there's a removal spell or something in the 75 you could play instead of stub.
I don't particularly like lingering souls right now. Since Jund got BBE, Souls isn't the breaker in the matchup it once was, and it doesn't meaningfully help the Mardu or Control matchups, so I have a hard time justifying it. If you want to beat those decks, frankly, play a different deck.
All of Jund, Shadow, and Mardu play out similarly. Jund being the most difficult because they have the most planeswalkers and the BBE. But in all those matches, it's going to be a discard fest; it's going to topdeck mode. Now against Jund who has copious amounts of land, I would not want Stub, or but maybe only 1x post board (I have 3x main). But against Shadow and Mardu the land count is lower so even soft-stub is likely to be useful. Against Sultai Shadow I cast stub at least twice in the match, once offline and once online that I recall for sure. It's likely the opponent will still tap out for things like LOTV or K-Command. But even without those applications, a "dead" stub in hand is just waiting for a topdeck Traverse/threat because then that threat is protected. Most Shadow players are only using 1-2 Abrupt Decay in the 75 so counters are still pretty relevant. Fatal Push, Terminate, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse, are other relevant problems that make quick work of our threats. I've played against this same Sultai Shadow player before in another event and I recall even casting Stub on his Stub which was trying to counter my removal. (My stub was soft this time but worked because he used his last mana to cast his stub on my Push targeting his Tarmogoyf)
Regarding Lingering Souls - I took it out of my sideboard after my first PPTQ earlier this summer and I haven't missed it. The only reason I would use it is for Jund and Jeskai and it's not helpful enough to warrant so many sideboard slots just for those matches. I just have extra counterspells for those but as I mentioned I've been lucky enough to dodge both archetypes in my last five PPTQs.
I can't stress enough how diverse the modern metagame is overall. Obviously this varies area to area but in 6 PPTQs over the last 8 weeks or so I have seen and faced many different archetypes. To Spooly's credit, I've learned to hedge my bets as far as SB is concerned. I board for the match-ups that are 40/60 or better, and I haven't worried much about the match-ups that are near unwinnable. Humans, Spirits, and Burn are the three decks that I feel are most difficult game 1 but can be turned around the most by sideboard tech. Can't say the same for Jund or Jeskai control.
The K Commands and the Lingering Souls don't look great to me, and I've never been a fan of Ghor-Clan, but otherwise this list makes sense.
Btw, maybe the anti-control hate card we should play is Boil. I've been playing UW control lately, and been losing to that card repeatedly out of Mardu and elsewhere.
It's a traverse-able version of TBR. I like the card in theory and there have certainly been a few games I've lost where I could've won if I'd had a GCR in my deck to search up. My main gripe with the card is that in order to traverse for it you are giving your opponent the info that you have it. At that point they can assign blockers differently to save themselves.
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That list is crazy. Kudos to a MM list placing well, but 3x KC main deck? That's wild.
//sideboard-1
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ranger of Eos
3 Bitterblossom
2 Stony Silence
4 Radiant Flames
3 Duress
Hi ya'll. I've been playing this list and really liking it. The bitterblossoms are great as they help any fair matchups and make it nearly impossible for control to outgrind you. I've been tinkering with the list alot so it's still in the very early stages. I've actually been doing well vs uw control with the blossoms and all of the discard after board. I'm just trying out the stonies. If they're bad I'll cut them. I've tried hazzoret and tireless tracker but I've found ranger to be loads better. In testing I've been finding almost all matchups to be either close or favorable. What do y’all think?
What do You think about "avoid fate" if not splashing blue? It cannot target spells in general but is a great defense against removal
Avoid fate: counter target istant or aura spell that targets a permanent You controllata. Cost 1 green mana
The best part about Stubborn is countering things like Planeswalkers, KCI, or generic spells that advance the opponents game plan such as Faithless Looting.
I don't think it's even close to a replacement for Stub. Even if that effect was satisfactory, I would suggest Vines of Vastwood because it can double as a pump spell and even stop opponents from targeting their own creatures with buffs
How do we think assassins trophy will affect this decks viability going forward? I think 4 and 5 color splashes might not be as viable and we might have to stick to maybe 3 Colors. Any thoughts?
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How do we think assassins trophy will affect this decks viability going forward? I think 4 and 5 color splashes might not be as viable and we might have to stick to maybe 3 Colors. Any thoughts?
I hope everyone switches from Abrupt Decay to Trophy so we can counter it. And if they're trying to attack our manabase, this could be another big reason to play Manamorphose. I've been back on the MM train lately, testing this list
The island is experimental but I'm thinking to use it against field of Ruin decks like UW where my red Mana isn't that important and I need to be able to counter.
I really like the new card Unmoored Ego but I'm not sure how much it really helps us. Tron and KCI have been favored matches in my experience, but Valakut has been 50/50 or worse. Living End and other key card combo decks have been a piece of cake. Overall I'd say it's a waste of SB slots.
Against GBx midrange decks, there should be an Island in 60 and about 2 or 3 red and 5 blue spells pretty much post board. They're likely to attack blue lands so it really shouldn't be a problem.
Are you sure you even want U against them postboard? They can Assassin's Trophy the island too if they draw multiples. I suspect the best plan against them postboard is to be GB only, and let the red/green lands be decoys. Look for your grindy cards in those two colors specifically. Temur Battle Rage and Stubborn Denial aren't great against them anyway, so there isn't a strong reason to rely on either of those colors for anything important in the matchup.
Also, I doubt Maelstrom Pulse is worth it once you're running Assasin's Trophy.
Do you think it's correct to board out any discards against Jund? And if so how many?
In the past, I would shave a couple IoK against Jund, or Thoughtseize against Abzan, if I had enough higher impact stuff to bring in. But they aren't the worst there, so it's entirely possible you have the full 8 discard spells against them postboard. It depends on the cards we have in the SB to bring in.
It occurs to me that despite Jund being better at taxing our 3rd/4th/5th colors now, Hazoret might be significantly better positioned against them than before. Assassin's Trophy can't kill it, while it can kill most other haymakers we throw at them (short of Lingering Souls/Ranger of Eos/Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but the mana tax is too high there), and often they'll ramp us by using Trophy on a Death's Shadow or Tarmogoyf. So maybe the play is to go hard on Jund colors, perhaps cutting blue, so that we can justify the Mountain, and have 1-2 Hazoret in the 75. It sucks that Hazzy is bad against the path decks though. One flaw with this plan is that if Jund leans in to the mana denial from Trophy by running a bunch of Fulminator Mage, they're likely to bring that in against us too, which makes casting a 4 drop pretty hard.
I think Trophy pretty much replaces Fulminator as the anti-tron tech (or at least that's the attitude of BGx players on this forum) so hopefully that risk factor won't be too prevalent.
I've often thought a basic mountain might be useful in the 75 since a lot of time I want to fetch for Overgrown Tomb first but then if I need to Traverse for a basic I already have my two colors so a mountain would be a good option. This Jund-heavy build (probably still some counterspells out of the SB) would allow me to support more Lightning bolt main deck which is a card I was happy with as a 3x in the events I've used it
The BGx players I talk to are all in on fulminator now because Trophy by itself isn't a tron plan, but systematically attacking their mana with trophy + fulminator + recur fulminator is (plus Surgical).
I don't think you want to side out all of the Street Wraiths against Jund unless you're siding in more cantrips. Cantrips = lands, and in a grindy matchup you want to make sure you can hit that 3rd land drop to cast the grindy spells. Shaving 1-2 is fine, but if you're looking for more space after that, it's typically the discard spells (assuming the TBRs have already come out).
Stub vs jund seems to be controversial around here, but I've never liked it. Too conditional, and they have their own discard spells to e.g. take your threats and leave you with a dead stub in hand. It's probably better now since they're cutting Decays for Trophies, but just structurally it's not great for the matchup.
Hazzy doesn't always get hit by LotV minus, and otherwise they can't kill it. It's ridiculously hard for them to deal with if you have a couple other creatures sitting around. That said, the problem since BBE's printing is that they can just go wide and kill you anyway since you're at such a low life total. But maybe there's a way to mitigate that issue, or maybe Assassin's Trophy means we get Hazzy online early enough consistently enough that they don't have as much time to get wide on us (or find that LotV). Idk, just spitballing here.
The BGx players I talk to are all in on fulminator now because Trophy by itself isn't a tron plan, but systematically attacking their mana with trophy + fulminator + recur fulminator is (plus Surgical).
I don't think you want to side out all of the Street Wraiths against Jund unless you're siding in more cantrips. Cantrips = lands, and in a grindy matchup you want to make sure you can hit that 3rd land drop to cast the grindy spells. Shaving 1-2 is fine, but if you're looking for more space after that, it's typically the discard spells (assuming the TBRs have already come out).
Stub vs jund seems to be controversial around here, but I've never liked it. Too conditional, and they have their own discard spells to e.g. take your threats and leave you with a dead stub in hand. It's probably better now since they're cutting Decays for Trophies, but just structurally it's not great for the matchup.
Hazzy doesn't always get hit by LotV minus, and otherwise they can't kill it. It's ridiculously hard for them to deal with if you have a couple other creatures sitting around. That said, the problem since BBE's printing is that they can just go wide and kill you anyway since you're at such a low life total. But maybe there's a way to mitigate that issue, or maybe Assassin's Trophy means we get Hazzy online early enough consistently enough that they don't have as much time to get wide on us (or find that LotV). Idk, just spitballing here.
Hazoret dodges their IOK as well which seems relevant. Do you think it's worth running 1x main board? Assuming I go all in Jund colors, with blue in SB
To be clear on my stance regarding Stubborn - I advise it in the shadow mirror (or vs GDS) but not against Jund. I've been using Spell Snare in my Sideboard and I've only to cast it on Jund once in recent testing, but it felt good. If Jund increased in metagame presence I'll trying going up to 2x SB. Snare has been awesome against Burn too
Spooly, how do you feel about a build foregoing the traverses and baubles, into a build with mausoleum of secrets and architects of will?
It keeps the same number of cantrips and tutors. It will be a tad slower for sure but I can see it finding threats more consistently. And mausoleum seems to be easier to turn on, just needing a streetwraith or an architect cycle to be enabled. What are your thoughts?
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Spooly, how do you feel about a build foregoing the traverses and baubles, into a build with mausoleum of secrets and architects of will?
It keeps the same number of cantrips and tutors. It will be a tad slower for sure but I can see it finding threats more consistently. And mausoleum seems to be easier to turn on, just needing a streetwraith or an architect cycle to be enabled. What are your thoughts?
2 mana is kind of a million for Shadow decks, but the fact that can tutor any black card is enticing. I'm skeptical, partially because it's never tutoring Tarmogoyf or a delve threat, so I guess you have to play Grim Flayer if you want to tutor for a threat that is good when your life total isn't low. Which is pretty medium. For it to work, there has to be significant upside. What else are you tutoring? LotV? That's ok, sometimes. Is there some other haymaker it can find, probably that Traverse couldn't previously find?
Edit: thinking about it even more, 2 mana is a real problem. Shadow decks are basically pure tempo decks, sometimes with some light card advantage, and spending 2 mana to find the big thing then however much mana that costs to play it is really at odds with that. However, I could see it as like a 1-2 of in a more standard traverse build, or as a SB card for grindy matchups to get extra copies of high impact stuff when you need it. Sort of like Snapcaster Mage.
I don't particularly like lingering souls right now. Since Jund got BBE, Souls isn't the breaker in the matchup it once was, and it doesn't meaningfully help the Mardu or Control matchups, so I have a hard time justifying it. If you want to beat those decks, frankly, play a different deck.
All of Jund, Shadow, and Mardu play out similarly. Jund being the most difficult because they have the most planeswalkers and the BBE. But in all those matches, it's going to be a discard fest; it's going to topdeck mode. Now against Jund who has copious amounts of land, I would not want Stub, or but maybe only 1x post board (I have 3x main). But against Shadow and Mardu the land count is lower so even soft-stub is likely to be useful. Against Sultai Shadow I cast stub at least twice in the match, once offline and once online that I recall for sure. It's likely the opponent will still tap out for things like LOTV or K-Command. But even without those applications, a "dead" stub in hand is just waiting for a topdeck Traverse/threat because then that threat is protected. Most Shadow players are only using 1-2 Abrupt Decay in the 75 so counters are still pretty relevant. Fatal Push, Terminate, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse, are other relevant problems that make quick work of our threats. I've played against this same Sultai Shadow player before in another event and I recall even casting Stub on his Stub which was trying to counter my removal. (My stub was soft this time but worked because he used his last mana to cast his stub on my Push targeting his Tarmogoyf)
Regarding Lingering Souls - I took it out of my sideboard after my first PPTQ earlier this summer and I haven't missed it. The only reason I would use it is for Jund and Jeskai and it's not helpful enough to warrant so many sideboard slots just for those matches. I just have extra counterspells for those but as I mentioned I've been lucky enough to dodge both archetypes in my last five PPTQs.
I can't stress enough how diverse the modern metagame is overall. Obviously this varies area to area but in 6 PPTQs over the last 8 weeks or so I have seen and faced many different archetypes. To Spooly's credit, I've learned to hedge my bets as far as SB is concerned. I board for the match-ups that are 40/60 or better, and I haven't worried much about the match-ups that are near unwinnable. Humans, Spirits, and Burn are the three decks that I feel are most difficult game 1 but can be turned around the most by sideboard tech. Can't say the same for Jund or Jeskai control.
Draft My Cube!
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Manamorphose
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Tarfire
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Godless Shrine
The K Commands and the Lingering Souls don't look great to me, and I've never been a fan of Ghor-Clan, but otherwise this list makes sense.
Btw, maybe the anti-control hate card we should play is Boil. I've been playing UW control lately, and been losing to that card repeatedly out of Mardu and elsewhere.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=392928
Modern - Mardu Death's Shadow(needs work)
DnT(mono white cause I had the cards)
Legacy - RUG Delver(almost foiled out)
RG Lands
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That list is crazy. Kudos to a MM list placing well, but 3x KC main deck? That's wild.
Draft My Cube!
3 Manamorphose
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Death's Shadow
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
1 Grim Flayer
1 Godless Shrine
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Street Wraith
1 Swamp
3 Tarfire
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
3 Temur Battle Rage
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Verdant Catacombs
//sideboard-1
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ranger of Eos
3 Bitterblossom
2 Stony Silence
4 Radiant Flames
3 Duress
Hi ya'll. I've been playing this list and really liking it. The bitterblossoms are great as they help any fair matchups and make it nearly impossible for control to outgrind you. I've been tinkering with the list alot so it's still in the very early stages. I've actually been doing well vs uw control with the blossoms and all of the discard after board. I'm just trying out the stonies. If they're bad I'll cut them. I've tried hazzoret and tireless tracker but I've found ranger to be loads better. In testing I've been finding almost all matchups to be either close or favorable. What do y’all think?
Avoid fate: counter target istant or aura spell that targets a permanent You controllata. Cost 1 green mana
The best part about Stubborn is countering things like Planeswalkers, KCI, or generic spells that advance the opponents game plan such as Faithless Looting.
I don't think it's even close to a replacement for Stub. Even if that effect was satisfactory, I would suggest Vines of Vastwood because it can double as a pump spell and even stop opponents from targeting their own creatures with buffs
Draft My Cube!
I hope everyone switches from Abrupt Decay to Trophy so we can counter it. And if they're trying to attack our manabase, this could be another big reason to play Manamorphose. I've been back on the MM train lately, testing this list
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
1 Lightning bolt
1 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
3 Stubborn denial
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
2 Delay
1 Spell Snare
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Radiant flames
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Island
The island is experimental but I'm thinking to use it against field of Ruin decks like UW where my red Mana isn't that important and I need to be able to counter.
I really like the new card Unmoored Ego but I'm not sure how much it really helps us. Tron and KCI have been favored matches in my experience, but Valakut has been 50/50 or worse. Living End and other key card combo decks have been a piece of cake. Overall I'd say it's a waste of SB slots.
Draft My Cube!
Are you sure you even want U against them postboard? They can Assassin's Trophy the island too if they draw multiples. I suspect the best plan against them postboard is to be GB only, and let the red/green lands be decoys. Look for your grindy cards in those two colors specifically. Temur Battle Rage and Stubborn Denial aren't great against them anyway, so there isn't a strong reason to rely on either of those colors for anything important in the matchup.
Also, I doubt Maelstrom Pulse is worth it once you're running Assasin's Trophy.
Draft My Cube!
In the past, I would shave a couple IoK against Jund, or Thoughtseize against Abzan, if I had enough higher impact stuff to bring in. But they aren't the worst there, so it's entirely possible you have the full 8 discard spells against them postboard. It depends on the cards we have in the SB to bring in.
It occurs to me that despite Jund being better at taxing our 3rd/4th/5th colors now, Hazoret might be significantly better positioned against them than before. Assassin's Trophy can't kill it, while it can kill most other haymakers we throw at them (short of Lingering Souls/Ranger of Eos/Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but the mana tax is too high there), and often they'll ramp us by using Trophy on a Death's Shadow or Tarmogoyf. So maybe the play is to go hard on Jund colors, perhaps cutting blue, so that we can justify the Mountain, and have 1-2 Hazoret in the 75. It sucks that Hazzy is bad against the path decks though. One flaw with this plan is that if Jund leans in to the mana denial from Trophy by running a bunch of Fulminator Mage, they're likely to bring that in against us too, which makes casting a 4 drop pretty hard.
I've often thought a basic mountain might be useful in the 75 since a lot of time I want to fetch for Overgrown Tomb first but then if I need to Traverse for a basic I already have my two colors so a mountain would be a good option. This Jund-heavy build (probably still some counterspells out of the SB) would allow me to support more Lightning bolt main deck which is a card I was happy with as a 3x in the events I've used it
Draft My Cube!
I don't think you want to side out all of the Street Wraiths against Jund unless you're siding in more cantrips. Cantrips = lands, and in a grindy matchup you want to make sure you can hit that 3rd land drop to cast the grindy spells. Shaving 1-2 is fine, but if you're looking for more space after that, it's typically the discard spells (assuming the TBRs have already come out).
Stub vs jund seems to be controversial around here, but I've never liked it. Too conditional, and they have their own discard spells to e.g. take your threats and leave you with a dead stub in hand. It's probably better now since they're cutting Decays for Trophies, but just structurally it's not great for the matchup.
Hazzy doesn't always get hit by LotV minus, and otherwise they can't kill it. It's ridiculously hard for them to deal with if you have a couple other creatures sitting around. That said, the problem since BBE's printing is that they can just go wide and kill you anyway since you're at such a low life total. But maybe there's a way to mitigate that issue, or maybe Assassin's Trophy means we get Hazzy online early enough consistently enough that they don't have as much time to get wide on us (or find that LotV). Idk, just spitballing here.
Hazoret dodges their IOK as well which seems relevant. Do you think it's worth running 1x main board? Assuming I go all in Jund colors, with blue in SB
To be clear on my stance regarding Stubborn - I advise it in the shadow mirror (or vs GDS) but not against Jund. I've been using Spell Snare in my Sideboard and I've only to cast it on Jund once in recent testing, but it felt good. If Jund increased in metagame presence I'll trying going up to 2x SB. Snare has been awesome against Burn too
Draft My Cube!
It keeps the same number of cantrips and tutors. It will be a tad slower for sure but I can see it finding threats more consistently. And mausoleum seems to be easier to turn on, just needing a streetwraith or an architect cycle to be enabled. What are your thoughts?
2 mana is kind of a million for Shadow decks, but the fact that can tutor any black card is enticing. I'm skeptical, partially because it's never tutoring Tarmogoyf or a delve threat, so I guess you have to play Grim Flayer if you want to tutor for a threat that is good when your life total isn't low. Which is pretty medium. For it to work, there has to be significant upside. What else are you tutoring? LotV? That's ok, sometimes. Is there some other haymaker it can find, probably that Traverse couldn't previously find?
Edit: thinking about it even more, 2 mana is a real problem. Shadow decks are basically pure tempo decks, sometimes with some light card advantage, and spending 2 mana to find the big thing then however much mana that costs to play it is really at odds with that. However, I could see it as like a 1-2 of in a more standard traverse build, or as a SB card for grindy matchups to get extra copies of high impact stuff when you need it. Sort of like Snapcaster Mage.