The jeskai matchup felt very rough. I kept a pretty good 6 on the draw game one, but I couldn’t shred his hands of all relevant spells - game one felt very bad due to having so many dead cards in the deck. I think sticking Liliana of the veil game one is the easiest path to victory, or if they’ve kept a slow hand it might work.
Game two I simply had too much stuff going on fast and took that game quite quick as far as I recall.
Game three i have lotv in hand and make my game plan to resolve it as my opponent has both burn and path in hand so I can’t reliably stick a shadow (have two in hand) I discard helix out of his hand leaving him with bolt and path and play shadow at 12 life on my turn 3 - hoping he will bolt the shadow. He does and I stick Liliana the next turn, discarding lingering souls (not sure if it is worth bringing in in the matchup but wanted to try it out). Next turn I discard shadow and flashback on souls. I manage to cast traverse for ranger and cast ranger next turn fetching the two remaining shadows, pass without uptick on Liliana and my opponent flashes in snap to bolt Liliana (now at 5 loyalty). The game continues for a while but in the end I feel like the ranger got me too much card advantage - I win off of goyf + 2 new lingering souls attacking.
Hello, just to comment what I'm thinking about:
I'm triyng to play DSJund with only 3 colors (BGR) at less in Game 1 in order to be more explosive.
In G2, when you know what deck you have in front, you can select your splash White or Blue, if any.
In this way Sideboard is a bit weaker, I know. What's your opinion?
I think you should run either Watery Grave or Godless Shrine maindeck. It is not really a problem - keep the other one in the board. I would cut the 2nd Blood Crypt for one of them - this gives you one more sideboard slot, which I think you have to commit to the 3rd stubborn denial (also I don't think the 3rd Temur Battle Rage is needed - you could move either a Collective Brutality or 1 Liliana of the Veil maindeck for it, or simply play more removal - but this is just my personal opinion. I find the TBR good to get out of weird spots but I win most games just fine without ever drawing one).
I was tinkering with a list like this as well before I settled on the 4c lists above. I decided to stick with 4 colors in order to gain more room in the sideboard as you mentioned, but there might be some possibilities with a list like yours. I really value having tons of flexible cards in my sideboard though (in order to combat both resolved chalices, planeswalkers and just straight up more creature removal).
I agree with Kaster, I run bloodcrypt MD in my sultai list without any red spell MD.
Never had any problem with it. SB slot's are precious
I'd love to see your list! I've been really leaning towards a more Sultai build lately but couldn't bare to cut TBR. I would love to play an additional Snapcaster (currently only 1x). Also I'm not sure how much I'll miss lightning bolt. My latest list is on a 1/3 split of Push/Bolt and I find myself siding out Push a lot
I agree with Kaster, I run bloodcrypt MD in my sultai list without any red spell MD.
Never had any problem with it. SB slot's are precious
I'd love to see your list! I've been really leaning towards a more Sultai build lately but couldn't bare to cut TBR. I would love to play an additional Snapcaster (currently only 1x). Also I'm not sure how much I'll miss lightning bolt. My latest list is on a 1/3 split of Push/Bolt and I find myself siding out Push a lot
I tested it on mtgo and I got a record of 36W-6L,So I decided to play it at an FNM level.
Won a 23 people event with this sultai shadow list splash red in sb. All the matchup felt pretty great. I would not make any change to the list for the moment.
The best play I did, I think it was against humans.
I was on the play in the first game and I had Stubborn denial
and thoughseize in hand. I knew stubb is very useless
against them exept to counter their turn 1 vial. So I passed
and just like I wish, he played turn 1 vial that I've been able to counter. Not playing that thoughseize gave me the win !
[quote from="FuneralofGod »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/772090-deaths-shadow-jund?comment=1975"]That's a very interesting list. How has V-Clique been performing? What about Jace? Are you often stuck on Mana and unable to make it to 4?
Clique and Jace are the flex slot. I play Jace because I enjoy playing jace. The deck doesn't need him at all. It should be in sb.
It's definitivly the worst card in the MD.
Clique has been impressive against combo deck and counter company (taking a coco). But I'm actually testing Nissa Stewart as a 1 of in this slot.
She's been fine (tested only 3 games with her). Being able to look your top deck with Bauble (to see if you can 0) or
Drawing the card you scry on top right now with street wraith is pretty fun. Her ultimate can win games too.
To finish, brainstorming with jace putting Tarmo/snap/shadow on top then using her 0 is VALUE.
Honesly, I made this list for my own fun and got insane result with it. It's one of the most fun (and still competitive) deck I ever played.
I'd like to hear Spooly's thoughts on the lack of Manamorphose in any top 8 placing list (that I can find) over the last few months. You've sold me well on the card and I can't bare to play a list without it, but I think for this weekend's PPTQ I'm going to drop MM in favor of more main board removal.
Collective Brutality - for Burn and UR Wizards
K-Command - for KCI, Affinity, Humans, Jund, Mardu, Pyro Prison, Tron
Golgari Charm - for UW/x Control & Mardu
Abrade - for Humans, Spirits, KCI, Affinity, Infect, Pyro Prison
Nihil Spellbomb - against Dredge, Vine, Mardu, KCI
Radiant flames - Affinity, Elves, Humans, Spirits
Fulminator Mage - Tron, Scapeshift, Infect
Delay - Spirits, UW/x Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Burn
Any other Sideboard suggestions please let me know. I'd love to try Alpine Moon but I'm not particularly worried about Infect, Scapeshift, or Tron anyway. If I could add lingering souls it would only be for UW control and Jund, but those match-ups are so difficult to win even with Souls
I'm not Spooly, but I do know Manamorphose has been underrated from the start. Most people just don't believe it's the right deck to play Vegas odds combo mode with.
Now that we're playing more red spells in the main deck, it's a bit more difficult to predict the correct colors. Normally you'd blind name BB or BG and usually end up fine, but that really hurts if you draw a Bolt off it now.
Has a list t8ed at all recently? I think a big factor is that right now the best players aren't playing the deck, for good reason AFAICT, so when someone does happen to spike a tournament with the deck, it's less likely to be the best list.
That said, Humans is still widely played, and Manamorphose is bad against them specifically. So it might just be right to not play Manamorphose.
SCG Modern Classic Philly (AJ Kerrigan, he used both 4x Manamorphose and 3x K-Command main deck, with both white and blue sideboard. Main deck Jund colors)
Ah, well, I wouldn't read too much into IQ or even classic results. Random and weird stuff will always be in the T8 of those. The more important point is the lack of open (or better) t8s. That's a decent signal that the deck isn't good, no matter whether it's playing manamorphose or not
Came in 1st at a 32-man PPTQ with this list. I'm new to Traverse Shadow, although I have past experience with Abzan Traverse and GDS. This list was sent to me by a friend who cashed a number of competitive events with it. I changed 3 cards for the PPTQ meta, replacing Kommand in the side with Abrade, taking out a fetchland for Breeding Pool, and running Radiant Flames over a second EE because I only own one.
Round 1: Mono G Tron 2-1
Round 2: Bogles 2-1
Round 3: Hollow One 2-1
Round 4: ID
Round 5: ID
Quarterfinals (3rd seed): BW Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
Semifinals: GDS 2-0
Finals: Split, invite plus some some credit
The list needs some refining but I really like having access to white. If I were to go down to 4 colors, I'd probably add in grindy cards like a single Snapcaster to the side. I'd probably also like an additional piece of removal in the main. Liliana the Last Hope has been decent but she might be relegated to the side soon. I like her -2 in this deck because it almost always reads "get yourself a threat, buff your dudes, and/or draw a card." Her floor is much higher here than Jund.
Having recently switched from Jund to this, my personal opinion is that it's better positioned than any other Thoughtseize deck.
It feels like a straight upgrade from Jund. Titanshift becomes a bye, I feel favored versus Tron, and Hardened Scales becomes winnable. Jeskai is awful but Jund never really beat Jeskai anyway. UW is slightly worse. My strategy versus UW is to slow-roll threats, waiting to play the next threat after they've dealt with the previous one while disrupting them along the way. Post-board I take out red for white. Slamming a turn 3 Lili also works very well.
Regarding Mardu, that deck has very few good matchups if any at the moment and gets murdered by all the graveyard hate running around.
Then there's Abzan Traverse, but that deck cannot beat control and has a very hard time versus big mana. Lingering Souls is merely okay at the moment and Abzan needs Lingering Souls to be perfect to win.
Now for the GDS comparison. The deck has way more air, half of its threats require significant setup, it has a hard time casting multiple threats, and it has a very hard time versus Leyline. It also feels super bad to get a hand with multiple snapcasters or gurmags. I think Traverse is the superior shadow deck at the moment.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
Amulet Titan
BGx
Dredge
GDS
Hollow One
Living End
Mardu
Traverse Death's Shadow
Thanks for the report, I might see myself trying that list (or something similiar) at some point, although it seems a bit light on removal for my taste. I really do like the looks of the list however!
Do you value blue highly at the moment? (you can see I posted some lists only in Jund colors main and with white in the board a few posts back) I have felt most matchups to be quite good with the white only board - also it is nice not feeling like you have to keep blue mana open for Stubby D. I'm still refining my list with hopes of getting some positive control MU as well as making sure Humans and Spirits are good matchups. With my limited testing against Hardened Scales the matchup has felt extremely favored to me.
Once again, thank you for the writeup and the list, it looks good!
This card hurts us more than it helps tbh. Our manabase is pretty fragile, even in pure Jund. We just can't play that many basics.
I disagree, people will replace Decay with it. We will be able to counter it not decay.
It helps against: Gurmag, Tasigur, Teferi, Jace, TKS, KCI, Tron lands, Manlands and more ! BIG UPSIDE.
Game two I simply had too much stuff going on fast and took that game quite quick as far as I recall.
Game three i have lotv in hand and make my game plan to resolve it as my opponent has both burn and path in hand so I can’t reliably stick a shadow (have two in hand) I discard helix out of his hand leaving him with bolt and path and play shadow at 12 life on my turn 3 - hoping he will bolt the shadow. He does and I stick Liliana the next turn, discarding lingering souls (not sure if it is worth bringing in in the matchup but wanted to try it out). Next turn I discard shadow and flashback on souls. I manage to cast traverse for ranger and cast ranger next turn fetching the two remaining shadows, pass without uptick on Liliana and my opponent flashes in snap to bolt Liliana (now at 5 loyalty). The game continues for a while but in the end I feel like the ranger got me too much card advantage - I win off of goyf + 2 new lingering souls attacking.
I'm triyng to play DSJund with only 3 colors (BGR) at less in Game 1 in order to be more explosive.
In G2, when you know what deck you have in front, you can select your splash White or Blue, if any.
In this way Sideboard is a bit weaker, I know. What's your opinion?
18 LANDS
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Grounds
2 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Swamp
13 CREATURES
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
29 SPELLS
4 Toughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra Bouble
3 Temur Battle Rage
3 Fatal Push
1 Tarfire
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Faithless Looting
2 Lighting Bolt
1 Dismember
60 MAIN
15 SIDEBOARD
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
3 Lingering Souls
1 Watery Grave
2 Stubborn Denial
I was tinkering with a list like this as well before I settled on the 4c lists above. I decided to stick with 4 colors in order to gain more room in the sideboard as you mentioned, but there might be some possibilities with a list like yours. I really value having tons of flexible cards in my sideboard though (in order to combat both resolved chalices, planeswalkers and just straight up more creature removal).
Let us know how the list works out though!
Never had any problem with it. SB slot's are precious
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I'd love to see your list! I've been really leaning towards a more Sultai build lately but couldn't bare to cut TBR. I would love to play an additional Snapcaster (currently only 1x). Also I'm not sure how much I'll miss lightning bolt. My latest list is on a 1/3 split of Push/Bolt and I find myself siding out Push a lot
Draft My Cube!
I tested it on mtgo and I got a record of 36W-6L,So I decided to play it at an FNM level.
Won a 23 people event with this sultai shadow list splash red in sb. All the matchup felt pretty great. I would not make any change to the list for the moment.
2-0 Boggles
2-0 Humans
2-0 Affinity
2-1 Counter company
2-1 Eldrazi & Taxes
Won a liliana of the veil (=
The best play I did, I think it was against humans.
I was on the play in the first game and I had Stubborn denial
and thoughseize in hand. I knew stubb is very useless
against them exept to counter their turn 1 vial. So I passed
and just like I wish, he played turn 1 vial that I've been able to counter. Not playing that thoughseize gave me the win !
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's shadow
4 Street wraith
2 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
Instant(12)
4 Fatal push
2 Abrupt decay
1 Dismember
2 Opt
3 Stubborn denial
Sorcery(8)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker(3)
2 Liliana of the veil
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
Land(18)
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire
4 Polluted delta
2 Misty rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Overgrown tomb
2 Watery grave
1 Blood crypt
1 Breeding pool
2 Ceremonious rejection
1 Stubborn denial
1 Disdainful stroke
2 Surgical extraction
1 Collective brutality
2 Liliana, the last hope
2 Temur battle rage
1 Abrade
1 Radiant flames
1 Izzet staticaster
1 Engineered explosives
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Draft My Cube!
I made it; (look back at my last comment)
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Draft My Cube!
Clique and Jace are the flex slot. I play Jace because I enjoy playing jace. The deck doesn't need him at all. It should be in sb.
It's definitivly the worst card in the MD.
Clique has been impressive against combo deck and counter company (taking a coco). But I'm actually testing Nissa Stewart as a 1 of in this slot.
She's been fine (tested only 3 games with her). Being able to look your top deck with Bauble (to see if you can 0) or
Drawing the card you scry on top right now with street wraith is pretty fun. Her ultimate can win games too.
To finish, brainstorming with jace putting Tarmo/snap/shadow on top then using her 0 is VALUE.
Honesly, I made this list for my own fun and got insane result with it. It's one of the most fun (and still competitive) deck I ever played.
Try it (=
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ghor-clan Rampager
Spells:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning bolt
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrade
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Radiant flames
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Delay
Collective Brutality - for Burn and UR Wizards
K-Command - for KCI, Affinity, Humans, Jund, Mardu, Pyro Prison, Tron
Golgari Charm - for UW/x Control & Mardu
Abrade - for Humans, Spirits, KCI, Affinity, Infect, Pyro Prison
Nihil Spellbomb - against Dredge, Vine, Mardu, KCI
Radiant flames - Affinity, Elves, Humans, Spirits
Fulminator Mage - Tron, Scapeshift, Infect
Delay - Spirits, UW/x Control, Tron, Scapeshift, Burn
Any other Sideboard suggestions please let me know. I'd love to try Alpine Moon but I'm not particularly worried about Infect, Scapeshift, or Tron anyway. If I could add lingering souls it would only be for UW control and Jund, but those match-ups are so difficult to win even with Souls
Draft My Cube!
Now that we're playing more red spells in the main deck, it's a bit more difficult to predict the correct colors. Normally you'd blind name BB or BG and usually end up fine, but that really hurts if you draw a Bolt off it now.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
That said, Humans is still widely played, and Manamorphose is bad against them specifically. So it might just be right to not play Manamorphose.
SCG Open Dallas (20th place but still respectable)
SCG Modern IQ Falls Church (no lightning bolts here)
SCG Modern IQ Toronto (Kolaghan's Command and Lingering Souls main deck)
SCG Modern Classic Philly (AJ Kerrigan, he used both 4x Manamorphose and 3x K-Command main deck, with both white and blue sideboard. Main deck Jund colors)
SCG Modern Classic Worcester (Two main deck Snapcaster, 9th place)
I forgot about AJ's Manamorphose list. I really like it but I've come to prefer Bolt over Tarfire.
Draft My Cube!
4 Mishra's Bauble
Creature (14)
4 Death's Shadow
2 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Instant (11)
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
1 Manamorphose
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
Land (18)
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Marsh Flats
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorcery (10)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Delay
1 Abrade
1 Godless Shrine
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Radiant Flames
Round 1: Mono G Tron 2-1
Round 2: Bogles 2-1
Round 3: Hollow One 2-1
Round 4: ID
Round 5: ID
Quarterfinals (3rd seed): BW Eldrazi and Taxes 2-0
Semifinals: GDS 2-0
Finals: Split, invite plus some some credit
The list needs some refining but I really like having access to white. If I were to go down to 4 colors, I'd probably add in grindy cards like a single Snapcaster to the side. I'd probably also like an additional piece of removal in the main. Liliana the Last Hope has been decent but she might be relegated to the side soon. I like her -2 in this deck because it almost always reads "get yourself a threat, buff your dudes, and/or draw a card." Her floor is much higher here than Jund.
Having recently switched from Jund to this, my personal opinion is that it's better positioned than any other Thoughtseize deck.
It feels like a straight upgrade from Jund. Titanshift becomes a bye, I feel favored versus Tron, and Hardened Scales becomes winnable. Jeskai is awful but Jund never really beat Jeskai anyway. UW is slightly worse. My strategy versus UW is to slow-roll threats, waiting to play the next threat after they've dealt with the previous one while disrupting them along the way. Post-board I take out red for white. Slamming a turn 3 Lili also works very well.
Regarding Mardu, that deck has very few good matchups if any at the moment and gets murdered by all the graveyard hate running around.
Then there's Abzan Traverse, but that deck cannot beat control and has a very hard time versus big mana. Lingering Souls is merely okay at the moment and Abzan needs Lingering Souls to be perfect to win.
Now for the GDS comparison. The deck has way more air, half of its threats require significant setup, it has a hard time casting multiple threats, and it has a very hard time versus Leyline. It also feels super bad to get a hand with multiple snapcasters or gurmags. I think Traverse is the superior shadow deck at the moment.
Amulet Titan
BGx
Dredge
GDS
Hollow One
Living End
Mardu
Traverse Death's Shadow
Do you value blue highly at the moment? (you can see I posted some lists only in Jund colors main and with white in the board a few posts back) I have felt most matchups to be quite good with the white only board - also it is nice not feeling like you have to keep blue mana open for Stubby D. I'm still refining my list with hopes of getting some positive control MU as well as making sure Humans and Spirits are good matchups. With my limited testing against Hardened Scales the matchup has felt extremely favored to me.
Once again, thank you for the writeup and the list, it looks good!
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
This card hurts us more than it helps tbh. Our manabase is pretty fragile, even in pure Jund. We just can't play that many basics.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund