In my previous post I was implying to cut down To 3 colors only maindeck, which would suggest that manamorphos would also not be needed. Admittedly I still haven't tried a 4x Manamorphos 17x land build yet. I also can't seem to find any top 8 list in the last year running that configuration which leads me to question it's potency.
Regarding Grim Lavamancer out of the side board - is he really enough against humans? I mean if the case for Bolt > Tar is that 3 toughness matters, then how effective is Lavamancer vs let's say a 3-dmg sweeper? All they need is to slam a Lieutenant and it puts a ton of their creatures out of shock range.
The removal configuration I have right now is 3 Bolt, 2 Push, 2 Decay, 2 Dismember which feels pretty solid. I feel like I am in need of TBR more often than I actually draw it so I might try going up to 3x. Currently at 17 land with 1x Faithless and it's been helpful. Never short on land though I've had to keep some questionable 1-land openers (which ended up ok). Faithless flashback is super relevant in a drawn out game where you're holding only 1-2 blank cards and have plenty of land on the board already. It's a helpful way to pitch traverse also if delirium isn't realistically going to be enabled any time soon. If I was playing maindeck Snapcaster then I would try 2x Faithless but for now I'll stick with 1x
Back with my match report of the 5-0 from a couple weeks back, since they've been late with the stream for weeks now unfortunately:
Round 1 vs Ponza (2-1)
Game 1: Mull to 6 but multiple discard spells take care of Utopia Sprawl and Blood Moon, Tarfire takes care of Tireless Tracker. Opponent casts BBE cascading into Blood Moon, but at this point I have a huge Goyf out, and a second Tarfire takes care of the BBE after which I just beat down to win.
Game 2: On the draw, have to mull again and have no answer for T1 Utopia Sprawl into T2 Molten Rain. Blood Moon comes down next turn and I can't contend with Tracker/Pia and Kiran.
Game 3: On the play, have the classic curve once again of discard (Utopia Sprawl) into Goyf and then a big Death's Shadow. Had all the answers for his creatures, had Golgari Charm for Blood Moon, and the quick clock was too much for him to handle.
Round 2 vs Bogles (2-1)
Game 1: On the draw, keep a very good 7 with potential for an absurdly fast clock (Shadow, Dismember, Thoughtseize). Opponent plays Thicket and passes, I fetch and Thoughtseize him and see that he's on Bogles. I take his only creature (Ledgewalker) and pass. He tries to find a creature after I cast DS and he is forced to fetch for Dryad Arbor, which I promptly Dismember to make DS a 9/9. I swing, he takes one more draw step and scoops.
Game 2: On the draw, keep an OK looking 6 with some SB cards, but he's just too fast. I Thoughtseize away a Runed Halo and hope that he jams Coronet T3 with only 2 lands (Stub in hand), but he finds one off the top and makes his Scout huge. I'm able to cast and crack Engineered Explosives, but he fetches an arbor, attaches a couple Auras, and ends it.
Game 3: On the play, he has T0 Leyline after I mull to 5 so it's not looking good. My hand is 3 fetches, Death's Shadow, and TBR. He plays his Bogle but luckily doesn't find a haymaker aura, just swinging in with Rancor+Gryff's Boon and another aura I don't recall. I get my Death's Shadow out which stalls him for a little as he does the combat math, and later cast a 1/2 Tarmogoyf. Eventually, he decides to swing in with his Bogle, leaving back an unenchanted Scout to block. I block with Tarmogoyf and go to 4 life, he is at 17. He passes, I crack the fetch I'd been sitting on and shock myself down to 1 to get a Watery Grave. I then untap and swing with Death's Shadow, he blocks with Scout. I cast TBR with counterspell backup (Delay) which he clearly was not expecting, and I get the win.
Round 3 vs RW Blasphemous Act (2-0)
Game 1: On the play, I Thoughtseize him and see mostly lands, with a Stuffy Doll and a Blood Moon. I take the Doll as I have multiple Traverses in hand that I use to get my basic Swamp & Forest. He eventually casts Blood Moon, but by this time I have a big Tarmogoyf beating down, and the Stuffy Doll he draws is hit by Dismember, after which he doesn't draw anything relevant and loses.
Game 2: On the draw, he has T0 Leyline, but I play tight to fade Blood Moon while putting out a massive 6/7 Goyf thanks to removal and drawing engine pieces like Wraith/Bauble. He has a Grandmaster in play he hit me with a couple times, so he's at 24 when he attempts to cast Rest in Peace. I crack the fetch I'd been sitting on to get Watery Grave and Stubborn Denial the RIP. I get an attack in with Goyf and then cast Death's Shadow, then Traverse for another Shadow which I also put on the board. He simply passes the turn with an untapped Plains and Vantage, and I go down to 5 life, swing with everything and TBR the Goyf that he attempts to block for the win.
Round 4 vs Jund Shadow feat. Bomat Courier (2-0)
Game 1: I keep a great hand of Thoughtseize, a couple removal spells, and DS/Goyf. I'm on the play and Thoughtseize his Reveler away, also taking note of a Grim Flayer and Courier. He casts Courier which gets Pushed. I Traverse for Shadow but don't cast it, worried about Bolt. Next turn his 4/4 Flayer is stonewalled by my 5/5 Shadows, and eventually I fetch-shock again and TBR for the win.
Game 2: On the draw, I keep another fantastic hand. I manage to go lower faster with multiple Wraiths, and cast a DS which starts getting in, although I know I won't win the long game since I Thoughtseized him earlier and took an IoK to prevent him from taking my TBR (also saw Traverse, Shadow, and a Reveler). He plays a Ghost Quarter and Dismembers my Shadow, then plays a Shadow of his own. I Traverse for another DS and cast it, and he doesn't have removal so there is a standoff. The pivotal moment comes when he taps out to cast Reveler while at 7 life and passes the turn. I topdeck a Dismember, which kills the Reveler and puts me to 3. I then swing with my Shadow, he blocks with his, and the first strike + trample damage from TBR gets there.
Round 5 vs Humans (2-0)
Game 1: On the draw with discard and 2x Shadow, he casts T1 Vial and passes. I Thoughtseize him and see Meddling Mage and Thalia. I take Meddling Mage, so T2 he casts Thalia. He gets in for 2 and passes on T3, and because of normal Death's Shadow things, I am at 8. I cast 3 Shadows on my T3 and pass with Dismember in hand. He topdecks a Freebooter to strip Dismember, and casts a Champion as well, but when I untap I fetch-shock to make my Shadows 8/8 and force him to block 2 of them, sending Thalia and Champion to the GY. He untaps and passes, and on my draw step Vials in another Freebooter. I reveal a basic Forest and with no cards in hand, he concedes.
Game 2: On the draw again, this time he plays a land and passes. I Thoughtseize him and see Meddling Mage, Thalia, Auriok Champion, and 2 Phantasmal Images. I take Auriok Champ and pass. He casts Mage naming Death's Shadow, and on my turn I Tarfire the Mage and cast my 5/5 Death's Shadow. He plays Thalia the next turn, but I just Fatal Push it and swing for 7 to put him to 12. He casts Thalia's Lieutenant and passes. I decline to attack because of the Images in his hand, and instead cast Faithless Looting, which draws me into a Traverse and Kozilek's Return (binned 2 lands). I Traverse for a second Shadow and pass. He plays a Vial and casts a Phantasmal Image copying my Shadow. I untap and cast Kozilek's Return, wiping his board and then swinging in for lethal.
On the current talk in this thread: 3 color Shadow is still good, but imo you really need Blue in order to protect your threats. It's a disruptive aggro deck at its core, so drawn out resource-exchanging games is generally not where you want to be. Utilizing 2x Looting you're able to pitch Stub in G1 matchups where it's not great, and Looting can also draw you into action to end games before they become drawn out and you lose momentum. If you do go 3 color though, you can run an additional TBR and things like Anger of the Gods more easily.
Lavamancer has been great for me on traditional Jund, but with Traverse it can be more of a balancing act to maintain delirium. It's still a fantastic option against Humans, but the games have to line up correctly (lots of removal or a sweeper into Lavaman to lock down whatever they might play) and multiple Mantis Riders/Reflector Mages are terrible, but with or without Lavaman those are rough for our deck to see anyway.
When I play it again I'll either try to squeeze a Grim Flayer into the main (maybe cutting Decay) or drop the Tarfires for Bolts just for the extra % of damage. I previously had been running 17 lands with 4 Manamorphose, and I still like those lists but I wanted to drop it and see how Looting would perform. Manamorphose lets you accelerate your busted starts and really helps if you have a lot of Blood Moon around, or if you're on only 1 basic. However I also found it to be pretty awkward getting openers with multiple manamorphose or several cantrips and then cycling into no action. The deck is pretty customize-able and I don't believe there to be a truly "optimal build" because of the # of colors we're able to run, so testing a couple different configurations and seeing what you're most comfortable with is the way to go imo
MY EXPERIENCE WITH DELIRIUM SHADOWS AT PTQ BARCELONE
INTRO
I arrived to Barcelone after a long and problematic intercontinental trip and went fast to the venue to play one Legacy and one Modern side events before closing.
I had register online for the next day PTQ and I had prepared a list and all cards to play a kind of Jund DS with U and SB W splashs, following your last advices. Thank you so much to whocansay and to Spooly
But... before unsleeve and re-sleeve I decided a last try testing a bit my horrible Mardu DS list versus Gift Storm, Jeskai Control and Grixis DS and after that I directly started to unsleeve it in the very same table. There was no point.
15 SIDEBOARD
1 Golgary Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
2 Lingering Souls
1 Hazoret the Fervent
THE ROUNDS
The six PTQ rounds [it was my first high level (or Competitive Rules Enforcement Level) tournament]
Round 1 versus Affinity with Karn Scion of Urza I won 2-1 but they were difficult matches
Round 2 versus UrzaTRON (tron lands + mana artifacts + Pws Ujin, Karn Liberated) win 2 -0 mainly because he played slow and I got discard him some key parts: Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated...
I won 2-0 in two very fast games
Round 3 versus UR Breach ( Through the Breach combo with Emrakul) .
In G1 I was developing my play, dominating the board and suddenly he comboed Through the Breach plus Emrakul and all finished abruptly.
For G2 I sideboarded the Fatal Pushes and boarded in the two Liliana of the Veil in order to have maximum discard power but it was not enough…
I discard him one Emrakul buying some time, he shuffle GY and library and he will need to find it (one of his copies) other time
I cannot use Stubborn ( not in my hand) when he casted Through the Breach So, I lost 0-2
Round 4 versus URZA TRON tron lands+ mana artifacts + Pws Ugin the SD, Karn Liberated (very simmilar deck than round 2) but I lost 0-2
Arrived late to my table and the judge give me G1 lost ( it was my fault, iit was OK)
My oponent in G2 was faster in both assembling tron combo and casting both PWS very fast. I lost 0-2
Round 5 versus Humans
My oponnent was unaware what I was playing and hit me some life points first turns Played 1 Tarmo and 2 shadows fast and he understand but too late. I won the G1
At G2 and G3 my oponnent boards in Mirran Crusaders with protection against black and green and Relic of Progenitus that were a bit hard to overcome specially for the Tarmos. II lost G2 and won G3 with DS + TBR so I won 2-1
Round 6 Versus A kind of Infect Humans CoCo
G1 I lost because I took fast poison counters with blighted agent and Inkmoth Nexus plus instants giving some +|+ effects ehat means a lot of poison counters
G2 I boarded in Lingering Souls but when finally I had LS in my hand I had not white mana and I cannot discard ( no looting then) to cast it as flashback and poison counters were 10 before I can react propeerly.
Summary:
I'm really happy. I feel my deck consistent and I played more organized and better than in my previous LGS tournaments. Using well the deck core and SB tools like LIliana, LS, faithless looting, etc. and committing less errors.
My sideboard was also better for me. I did n’t include specific cards against Boggles or certain artifact hate but I had a SB less meta-dependent ,more multipurpose like a swiss-knife.
I had luck not playing against KCI, I was afraid of …
I have learned a lot in this tournament. I played versus decks like Urza TRon or UR Breach that were totally new for me.
My pending tasks:
- BLUE was in my deck but honestly I didn't play blue at all I didn"t use the Stubborns in alll the 6 rounds
Even, I boarded them out incorrectly in G2 and G3 of last round because I could try to use them against CoCo but it was because I did not see the CoCo in G1 and I considered it as an “all -creatures” deck not reminding about CoCo
-I used one SB slot for Hazoret without any proper idea of when boarded in...
Thank you for reading.
I board out Stubs against CoCo, I think it's the correct move. The only things it counters are Company and Path and I don't think it's worth it to run Stubs just for those cards. We have discard to deal with that nonsense anyway. I'd rather overload on anything that kills creatures and punch through with TBR. If they have Path, well, tough break.
Hazoret is great against grindy decks that don't run Path, as it's very hard for them to deal with it once it's on the battlefield (Jund, GDS, etc.) and against decks where you just have to race in order to win. Tron, Burn..KCI perhaps?
What do you mean by Temur DS? Maybe you mean Mardu? Temur doesn't run black. I'm also assuming the Disintegrate in your deck is a Dismember.
I'm not sold on just 2 copies of Souls in your sideboard. If you're gonna run them they'll be the MVPs in a lot of matches so I reckon you need 3 in order to see them consistently. The single Leyline seems weird too, you want that card in your opening hand or not at all. Drawing it halfway through the game is just awful.
I have corrected the Mardu / Dissintegrate errors in my post.
Thanks for your comments,you are right about the Leyline, so it's better to eliminate it and in this way we have the slot for the third LS.
After many tests, I'm not convinced that the splash W for LS is relevant in this metagame :
1 - Our threats are more difficult to manage since lightning bolt presence increase instead of fatal push, so the plan A DS + TBR is stronger ;
2 - Decks with LS, like mardu pyro, grind better.
On friday, i played one side event to practice :
- 2-1 Humans
- 2-1 BR Hollow one
- 2-0 Jund
Sunday
- 0-2 Martyr Life
- 2-0 Bogles
- 2-0 Affinity
- 2-0 Burn
- 1-2 Humans
- 1-2 Burn. I gave him the last game. Maybe this 3rd defeat against human was still in my head.
Drop.
We are close to a good performance, but these three defeats against humans showed me i have work before GP Pragues and master the MU.
The +++ :
- Liliana of the Veil is not so good in this metagame, and i thought the inclusion of 2x Snapcaster mage was really good to grind in midgame and keep advantage. Split 1/1 Lotv is enought.
- One-off tarfire is really nice for Tarmogoyf, Delirium and you can finish your opponent with Snap+choc. I like split him with a traditionnal lightning bolt.
The --- :
MD :
- Architect of will, maybe i can found a better slot ;
- 1x stubborn MD and keep 2 ? With so much humans in the metagame, 3 stubborn MD seems too much.
SB :
- 1/2x Nihil spellbomb. I'have played 3x copies for BR Hollow one, Mardu Pyro and KCI. Maybe 2 copies are OK with a one-off Surgical extraction ?
- 1x Izzet staticaster
- 1/2x Radiant flames
- 1x Ancient grudge
Hi everyone! I am considering buying into DS Jund. What are your thoughts on running straight jund with BBE as curve topper/gas? Or is stubborn denial just to important, even with 7-8 discard spells?
Pretty much the latter. This has been discussed quite a bit in this thread, but it basically comes down to the fact that if you want to grind, GDS and regular Jund are better options.
Yes, Stub is that good in the matchups where it's crucial for a win.
BBE into Bauble / TBR is also a pretty miserable experience.
On an unrelated note, I tried swapping out the Manamorphoses yesterday to test a build with Flayer, Snapcaster, the 3rd Stub and a Looting. Didn't really get enough games in to comment on most of them but the Snapcaster was just god-awful. I realized it's the only card in the entire deck that is not keepable on its own merit in your opening hand. It's too slow for the meta, runs counter to our gameplan and I never wanted to see it when I did.
Hi everyone! I am considering buying into DS Jund. What are your thoughts on running straight jund with BBE as curve topper/gas? Or is stubborn denial just to important, even with 7-8 discard spells?
Pretty much the latter. This has been discussed quite a bit in this thread, but it basically comes down to the fact that if you want to grind, GDS and regular Jund are better options.
Yes, Stub is that good in the matchups where it's crucial for a win.
BBE into Bauble / TBR is also a pretty miserable experience.
Also, Shadow decks just aren't the best set up for playing a longer, grindier game. When you put yourself at such a low life total, the more turns you play the more time you give the opponent to steal a win with a random Colonnade hit, or a bolt, or bolt + snap + bolt, or going wide enough to alpha strike past your couple of blockers, especially with a manland activation or a haste creature like your opponent's BBE. If you really want to grind, it's probably best to move off Death's Shadow. (But it's modern... you should never want to grind.)
On an unrelated note, I tried swapping out the Manamorphoses yesterday to test a build with Flayer, Snapcaster, the 3rd Stub and a Looting. Didn't really get enough games in to comment on most of them but the Snapcaster was just god-awful. I realized it's the only card in the entire deck that is not keepable on its own merit in your opening hand. It's too slow for the meta, runs counter to our gameplan and I never wanted to see it when I did.
Yes, exactly! There's a reason legacy Delver doesn't play Snapcaster. We shouldn't play it for the same reasons, plus it's hard (or impossible!) for us to flash back blue spells with it.
Oh for sure. I adjusted the manabase so I could flashback blue but still... any card that doesn't do anything until turn 3 is just not a card I want to see in this deck at all before sideboarding.
I immediately ran into delirium-enabling issues without the Manamorphose too. Back in they go - as much of a liability as they can be sometimes.
Yeah Snapcaster really isn't great in this deck. However, recently I've been testing and been pleasantly surprised by Jace Vryn's Prodigy. You're already filling your graveyard quickly so it almost always flips the turn after you play it and flashing back Traverse and disruption is no joke. Gives you more game against Jeskai, as if they don't want to deal with a strong turn 3 planeswalker, they have to use one of their valuable removal spells. It also enables some strong double and triple spell turn 3s against quicker decks that they often can't recover from. I definitely want to get in more testing with it but I think there's something here.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grixis Shadow UBR Grixis Control UBR Bubble Hulk UBR
I don't think I'm on board with the Jeskai thing at all. Jace gives them something to spend their otherwise fairly useless (as far as removal goes) Bolts and Helixes on.
Nine out of ten times my turn two play is a 3/4, or bigger, Goyf that blanks all their removal spells except for Path. We need to apply pressure fast, not give Jeskai the time it needs to inevitably beat us by giving it a creature that they can kill on the spot before it's even done anything.
JVP isn't good enough for Grixis, I don't see how it's anywhere near good enough for us. It doesn't improve our bad matchups to a meaningful extent at all and forces us to fetch blue sooner than we might want to.
On turn 2 you want to be slamming fatties or destroying their hand, that's what this deck is all about.
1. Three sources is unnecessary, two is more than enough. For a long time we only ran one.
2. Meta call. Lot of Humans? Play Radiant Flames. Lot of Affinity? Kozilek's Return. No creature decks, no need for sweepers. Pulse is slow but it can be a nice catch-all. Really depends on what you're up against. I've been considering Hero's Downfall lately as it's the only card that reliably deals with a t5 Teferi (Pulse will just get countered) in addition to other problematic cards in the current metagame like Karn, Ugin, Lili, Jace, Wurmcoil, World Breaker, Gurmag... Worth a shot I reckon.
3. Cage turns off your Souls as much as it turns off their Snapcaster. I don't think it's worth it and I would keep the 4th Traverse instead as you need to land a threat asap against control. You won't beat them in the long game, which is why I don't really like Souls in general either. We don't want to grind against grindy decks as they're invariably better at it than we are. Kolaghan's Command seems lackluster also, they don't really play any artifacts or meaningful targets for the dmg, but I guess the recursion and discard can be useful. I'd rather run Liliana, the Last Hope as my 3cmc haymaker.
Looks like none other than kanister himself is rocking good old Suicide Zoo to 5-0 finishes on MTGO. I remember him giving me a sound thrashing with this deck at a PPTQ back in the day.
I never played this archetype before GDS came along - can anyone offer me some valuable insight on what might have caused it to be the correct choice again?
Looks like none other than kanister himself is rocking good old Suicide Zoo to 5-0 finishes on MTGO. I remember him giving me a sound thrashing with this deck at a PPTQ back in the day.
I never played this archetype before GDS came along - can anyone offer me some valuable insight on what might have caused it to be the correct choice again?
I'm not sure what makes it the right deck to play in the MTGO meta. Maybe a little better against humans with the 4x TBR? I know this deck evolved into Shadow Jund after Gitaxian probe was banned in Modern (about a year and a half ago?)
It looks awfully similar to the new GB Infect decks that have been surfacing the online meta. I've definitely been feeling that my build could use a 3rd TBR and maybe his 5-0 finishing is another indicator of this. I rarely lose the game if I draw TBR
Regarding Grim Lavamancer out of the side board - is he really enough against humans? I mean if the case for Bolt > Tar is that 3 toughness matters, then how effective is Lavamancer vs let's say a 3-dmg sweeper? All they need is to slam a Lieutenant and it puts a ton of their creatures out of shock range.
The removal configuration I have right now is 3 Bolt, 2 Push, 2 Decay, 2 Dismember which feels pretty solid. I feel like I am in need of TBR more often than I actually draw it so I might try going up to 3x. Currently at 17 land with 1x Faithless and it's been helpful. Never short on land though I've had to keep some questionable 1-land openers (which ended up ok). Faithless flashback is super relevant in a drawn out game where you're holding only 1-2 blank cards and have plenty of land on the board already. It's a helpful way to pitch traverse also if delirium isn't realistically going to be enabled any time soon. If I was playing maindeck Snapcaster then I would try 2x Faithless but for now I'll stick with 1x
Draft My Cube!
Round 1 vs Ponza (2-1)
Game 1: Mull to 6 but multiple discard spells take care of Utopia Sprawl and Blood Moon, Tarfire takes care of Tireless Tracker. Opponent casts BBE cascading into Blood Moon, but at this point I have a huge Goyf out, and a second Tarfire takes care of the BBE after which I just beat down to win.
Game 2: On the draw, have to mull again and have no answer for T1 Utopia Sprawl into T2 Molten Rain. Blood Moon comes down next turn and I can't contend with Tracker/Pia and Kiran.
Game 3: On the play, have the classic curve once again of discard (Utopia Sprawl) into Goyf and then a big Death's Shadow. Had all the answers for his creatures, had Golgari Charm for Blood Moon, and the quick clock was too much for him to handle.
Round 2 vs Bogles (2-1)
Game 1: On the draw, keep a very good 7 with potential for an absurdly fast clock (Shadow, Dismember, Thoughtseize). Opponent plays Thicket and passes, I fetch and Thoughtseize him and see that he's on Bogles. I take his only creature (Ledgewalker) and pass. He tries to find a creature after I cast DS and he is forced to fetch for Dryad Arbor, which I promptly Dismember to make DS a 9/9. I swing, he takes one more draw step and scoops.
Game 2: On the draw, keep an OK looking 6 with some SB cards, but he's just too fast. I Thoughtseize away a Runed Halo and hope that he jams Coronet T3 with only 2 lands (Stub in hand), but he finds one off the top and makes his Scout huge. I'm able to cast and crack Engineered Explosives, but he fetches an arbor, attaches a couple Auras, and ends it.
Game 3: On the play, he has T0 Leyline after I mull to 5 so it's not looking good. My hand is 3 fetches, Death's Shadow, and TBR. He plays his Bogle but luckily doesn't find a haymaker aura, just swinging in with Rancor+Gryff's Boon and another aura I don't recall. I get my Death's Shadow out which stalls him for a little as he does the combat math, and later cast a 1/2 Tarmogoyf. Eventually, he decides to swing in with his Bogle, leaving back an unenchanted Scout to block. I block with Tarmogoyf and go to 4 life, he is at 17. He passes, I crack the fetch I'd been sitting on and shock myself down to 1 to get a Watery Grave. I then untap and swing with Death's Shadow, he blocks with Scout. I cast TBR with counterspell backup (Delay) which he clearly was not expecting, and I get the win.
Round 3 vs RW Blasphemous Act (2-0)
Game 1: On the play, I Thoughtseize him and see mostly lands, with a Stuffy Doll and a Blood Moon. I take the Doll as I have multiple Traverses in hand that I use to get my basic Swamp & Forest. He eventually casts Blood Moon, but by this time I have a big Tarmogoyf beating down, and the Stuffy Doll he draws is hit by Dismember, after which he doesn't draw anything relevant and loses.
Game 2: On the draw, he has T0 Leyline, but I play tight to fade Blood Moon while putting out a massive 6/7 Goyf thanks to removal and drawing engine pieces like Wraith/Bauble. He has a Grandmaster in play he hit me with a couple times, so he's at 24 when he attempts to cast Rest in Peace. I crack the fetch I'd been sitting on to get Watery Grave and Stubborn Denial the RIP. I get an attack in with Goyf and then cast Death's Shadow, then Traverse for another Shadow which I also put on the board. He simply passes the turn with an untapped Plains and Vantage, and I go down to 5 life, swing with everything and TBR the Goyf that he attempts to block for the win.
Round 4 vs Jund Shadow feat. Bomat Courier (2-0)
Game 1: I keep a great hand of Thoughtseize, a couple removal spells, and DS/Goyf. I'm on the play and Thoughtseize his Reveler away, also taking note of a Grim Flayer and Courier. He casts Courier which gets Pushed. I Traverse for Shadow but don't cast it, worried about Bolt. Next turn his 4/4 Flayer is stonewalled by my 5/5 Shadows, and eventually I fetch-shock again and TBR for the win.
Game 2: On the draw, I keep another fantastic hand. I manage to go lower faster with multiple Wraiths, and cast a DS which starts getting in, although I know I won't win the long game since I Thoughtseized him earlier and took an IoK to prevent him from taking my TBR (also saw Traverse, Shadow, and a Reveler). He plays a Ghost Quarter and Dismembers my Shadow, then plays a Shadow of his own. I Traverse for another DS and cast it, and he doesn't have removal so there is a standoff. The pivotal moment comes when he taps out to cast Reveler while at 7 life and passes the turn. I topdeck a Dismember, which kills the Reveler and puts me to 3. I then swing with my Shadow, he blocks with his, and the first strike + trample damage from TBR gets there.
Round 5 vs Humans (2-0)
Game 1: On the draw with discard and 2x Shadow, he casts T1 Vial and passes. I Thoughtseize him and see Meddling Mage and Thalia. I take Meddling Mage, so T2 he casts Thalia. He gets in for 2 and passes on T3, and because of normal Death's Shadow things, I am at 8. I cast 3 Shadows on my T3 and pass with Dismember in hand. He topdecks a Freebooter to strip Dismember, and casts a Champion as well, but when I untap I fetch-shock to make my Shadows 8/8 and force him to block 2 of them, sending Thalia and Champion to the GY. He untaps and passes, and on my draw step Vials in another Freebooter. I reveal a basic Forest and with no cards in hand, he concedes.
Game 2: On the draw again, this time he plays a land and passes. I Thoughtseize him and see Meddling Mage, Thalia, Auriok Champion, and 2 Phantasmal Images. I take Auriok Champ and pass. He casts Mage naming Death's Shadow, and on my turn I Tarfire the Mage and cast my 5/5 Death's Shadow. He plays Thalia the next turn, but I just Fatal Push it and swing for 7 to put him to 12. He casts Thalia's Lieutenant and passes. I decline to attack because of the Images in his hand, and instead cast Faithless Looting, which draws me into a Traverse and Kozilek's Return (binned 2 lands). I Traverse for a second Shadow and pass. He plays a Vial and casts a Phantasmal Image copying my Shadow. I untap and cast Kozilek's Return, wiping his board and then swinging in for lethal.
On the current talk in this thread: 3 color Shadow is still good, but imo you really need Blue in order to protect your threats. It's a disruptive aggro deck at its core, so drawn out resource-exchanging games is generally not where you want to be. Utilizing 2x Looting you're able to pitch Stub in G1 matchups where it's not great, and Looting can also draw you into action to end games before they become drawn out and you lose momentum. If you do go 3 color though, you can run an additional TBR and things like Anger of the Gods more easily.
Lavamancer has been great for me on traditional Jund, but with Traverse it can be more of a balancing act to maintain delirium. It's still a fantastic option against Humans, but the games have to line up correctly (lots of removal or a sweeper into Lavaman to lock down whatever they might play) and multiple Mantis Riders/Reflector Mages are terrible, but with or without Lavaman those are rough for our deck to see anyway.
Draft My Cube!
When I play it again I'll either try to squeeze a Grim Flayer into the main (maybe cutting Decay) or drop the Tarfires for Bolts just for the extra % of damage. I previously had been running 17 lands with 4 Manamorphose, and I still like those lists but I wanted to drop it and see how Looting would perform. Manamorphose lets you accelerate your busted starts and really helps if you have a lot of Blood Moon around, or if you're on only 1 basic. However I also found it to be pretty awkward getting openers with multiple manamorphose or several cantrips and then cycling into no action. The deck is pretty customize-able and I don't believe there to be a truly "optimal build" because of the # of colors we're able to run, so testing a couple different configurations and seeing what you're most comfortable with is the way to go imo
INTRO
I arrived to Barcelone after a long and problematic intercontinental trip and went fast to the venue to play one Legacy and one Modern side events before closing.
I had register online for the next day PTQ and I had prepared a list and all cards to play a kind of Jund DS with U and SB W splashs, following your last advices. Thank you so much to whocansay and to Spooly
But... before unsleeve and re-sleeve I decided a last try testing a bit my horrible Mardu DS list versus Gift Storm, Jeskai Control and Grixis DS and after that I directly started to unsleeve it in the very same table. There was no point.
This is the decklist I register for PTQ:
MY DECK
18 LANDS
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Swamp
13 CREATURES
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
29 SPELLS
4 Toughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra Bouble
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Fatal Push
1 Tarfire
2 Faithless Looting
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Lighting Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Stubborn Denial
60 MAIN
15 SIDEBOARD
1 Golgary Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
2 Lingering Souls
1 Hazoret the Fervent
THE ROUNDS
The six PTQ rounds [it was my first high level (or Competitive Rules Enforcement Level) tournament]
Round 1 versus Affinity with Karn Scion of Urza I won 2-1 but they were difficult matches
Round 2 versus UrzaTRON (tron lands + mana artifacts + Pws Ujin, Karn Liberated) win 2 -0 mainly because he played slow and I got discard him some key parts: Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated...
I won 2-0 in two very fast games
Round 3 versus UR Breach ( Through the Breach combo with Emrakul) .
In G1 I was developing my play, dominating the board and suddenly he comboed Through the Breach plus Emrakul and all finished abruptly.
For G2 I sideboarded the Fatal Pushes and boarded in the two Liliana of the Veil in order to have maximum discard power but it was not enough…
I discard him one Emrakul buying some time, he shuffle GY and library and he will need to find it (one of his copies) other time
I cannot use Stubborn ( not in my hand) when he casted Through the Breach So, I lost 0-2
Round 4 versus URZA TRON tron lands+ mana artifacts + Pws Ugin the SD, Karn Liberated (very simmilar deck than round 2) but I lost 0-2
Arrived late to my table and the judge give me G1 lost ( it was my fault, iit was OK)
My oponent in G2 was faster in both assembling tron combo and casting both PWS very fast. I lost 0-2
Round 5 versus Humans
My oponnent was unaware what I was playing and hit me some life points first turns Played 1 Tarmo and 2 shadows fast and he understand but too late. I won the G1
At G2 and G3 my oponnent boards in Mirran Crusaders with protection against black and green and Relic of Progenitus that were a bit hard to overcome specially for the Tarmos. II lost G2 and won G3 with DS + TBR so I won 2-1
Round 6 Versus A kind of Infect Humans CoCo
G1 I lost because I took fast poison counters with blighted agent and Inkmoth Nexus plus instants giving some +|+ effects ehat means a lot of poison counters
G2 I boarded in Lingering Souls but when finally I had LS in my hand I had not white mana and I cannot discard ( no looting then) to cast it as flashback and poison counters were 10 before I can react propeerly.
Summary:
I'm really happy. I feel my deck consistent and I played more organized and better than in my previous LGS tournaments. Using well the deck core and SB tools like LIliana, LS, faithless looting, etc. and committing less errors.
My sideboard was also better for me. I did n’t include specific cards against Boggles or certain artifact hate but I had a SB less meta-dependent ,more multipurpose like a swiss-knife.
I had luck not playing against KCI, I was afraid of …
I have learned a lot in this tournament. I played versus decks like Urza TRon or UR Breach that were totally new for me.
My pending tasks:
- BLUE was in my deck but honestly I didn't play blue at all I didn"t use the Stubborns in alll the 6 rounds
Even, I boarded them out incorrectly in G2 and G3 of last round because I could try to use them against CoCo but it was because I did not see the CoCo in G1 and I considered it as an “all -creatures” deck not reminding about CoCo
-I used one SB slot for Hazoret without any proper idea of when boarded in...
Thank you for reading.
Hazoret is great against grindy decks that don't run Path, as it's very hard for them to deal with it once it's on the battlefield (Jund, GDS, etc.) and against decks where you just have to race in order to win. Tron, Burn..KCI perhaps?
What do you mean by Temur DS? Maybe you mean Mardu? Temur doesn't run black. I'm also assuming the Disintegrate in your deck is a Dismember.
I'm not sold on just 2 copies of Souls in your sideboard. If you're gonna run them they'll be the MVPs in a lot of matches so I reckon you need 3 in order to see them consistently. The single Leyline seems weird too, you want that card in your opening hand or not at all. Drawing it halfway through the game is just awful.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Thanks for your comments,you are right about the Leyline, so it's better to eliminate it and in this way we have the slot for the third LS.
First post on this topic. I'm coming back from Barcelona where I played this list of traverse shadow (4C) :
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant
1 Tarfire
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Dismember
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Abrade
2 Golgari Charm
1 Radiant Flames
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
After many tests, I'm not convinced that the splash W for LS is relevant in this metagame :
1 - Our threats are more difficult to manage since lightning bolt presence increase instead of fatal push, so the plan A DS + TBR is stronger ;
2 - Decks with LS, like mardu pyro, grind better.
On friday, i played one side event to practice :
- 2-1 Humans
- 2-1 BR Hollow one
- 2-0 Jund
Saturday (2 byes)
- 2-0 RG Eldrazi
- 2-1 Jeskai
- 2-0 G Tron
- 1-2 Humans
- 0-2 Humans
- 2-0 Grixis DS
Sunday
- 0-2 Martyr Life
- 2-0 Bogles
- 2-0 Affinity
- 2-0 Burn
- 1-2 Humans
- 1-2 Burn. I gave him the last game. Maybe this 3rd defeat against human was still in my head.
Drop.
We are close to a good performance, but these three defeats against humans showed me i have work before GP Pragues and master the MU.
The +++ :
- Liliana of the Veil is not so good in this metagame, and i thought the inclusion of 2x Snapcaster mage was really good to grind in midgame and keep advantage. Split 1/1 Lotv is enought.
- One-off tarfire is really nice for Tarmogoyf, Delirium and you can finish your opponent with Snap+choc. I like split him with a traditionnal lightning bolt.
The --- :
MD :
- Architect of will, maybe i can found a better slot ;
- 1x stubborn MD and keep 2 ? With so much humans in the metagame, 3 stubborn MD seems too much.
SB :
- 1/2x Nihil spellbomb. I'have played 3x copies for BR Hollow one, Mardu Pyro and KCI. Maybe 2 copies are OK with a one-off Surgical extraction ?
- 1x Izzet staticaster
- 1/2x Radiant flames
- 1x Ancient grudge
+ 1x Abrade ?
+ 1/2x Pyroclasm ?
+ 1/2x Kolaghan's Command ?
+ 1/2x Surgical Extraction ?
+ 1/2x Grim Lavamancer ?
What's the best cards against humans ??
Thanks for reading,
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
1) Bolt 2) Lavamancer 3) Radiant Flames
Definitely in that order.
Yes, Stub is that good in the matchups where it's crucial for a win.
BBE into Bauble / TBR is also a pretty miserable experience.
On an unrelated note, I tried swapping out the Manamorphoses yesterday to test a build with Flayer, Snapcaster, the 3rd Stub and a Looting. Didn't really get enough games in to comment on most of them but the Snapcaster was just god-awful. I realized it's the only card in the entire deck that is not keepable on its own merit in your opening hand. It's too slow for the meta, runs counter to our gameplan and I never wanted to see it when I did.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Also, Shadow decks just aren't the best set up for playing a longer, grindier game. When you put yourself at such a low life total, the more turns you play the more time you give the opponent to steal a win with a random Colonnade hit, or a bolt, or bolt + snap + bolt, or going wide enough to alpha strike past your couple of blockers, especially with a manland activation or a haste creature like your opponent's BBE. If you really want to grind, it's probably best to move off Death's Shadow. (But it's modern... you should never want to grind.)
Yes, exactly! There's a reason legacy Delver doesn't play Snapcaster. We shouldn't play it for the same reasons, plus it's hard (or impossible!) for us to flash back blue spells with it.
I immediately ran into delirium-enabling issues without the Manamorphose too. Back in they go - as much of a liability as they can be sometimes.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Nine out of ten times my turn two play is a 3/4, or bigger, Goyf that blanks all their removal spells except for Path. We need to apply pressure fast, not give Jeskai the time it needs to inevitably beat us by giving it a creature that they can kill on the spot before it's even done anything.
JVP isn't good enough for Grixis, I don't see how it's anywhere near good enough for us. It doesn't improve our bad matchups to a meaningful extent at all and forces us to fetch blue sooner than we might want to.
On turn 2 you want to be slamming fatties or destroying their hand, that's what this deck is all about.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
2. Meta call. Lot of Humans? Play Radiant Flames. Lot of Affinity? Kozilek's Return. No creature decks, no need for sweepers. Pulse is slow but it can be a nice catch-all. Really depends on what you're up against. I've been considering Hero's Downfall lately as it's the only card that reliably deals with a t5 Teferi (Pulse will just get countered) in addition to other problematic cards in the current metagame like Karn, Ugin, Lili, Jace, Wurmcoil, World Breaker, Gurmag... Worth a shot I reckon.
3. Cage turns off your Souls as much as it turns off their Snapcaster. I don't think it's worth it and I would keep the 4th Traverse instead as you need to land a threat asap against control. You won't beat them in the long game, which is why I don't really like Souls in general either. We don't want to grind against grindy decks as they're invariably better at it than we are. Kolaghan's Command seems lackluster also, they don't really play any artifacts or meaningful targets for the dmg, but I guess the recursion and discard can be useful. I'd rather run Liliana, the Last Hope as my 3cmc haymaker.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I never played this archetype before GDS came along - can anyone offer me some valuable insight on what might have caused it to be the correct choice again?
List:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Street Wraith
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Thoughtseize
3 Become Immense
2 Blossoming Defense
1 Dismember
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damping Sphere
1 Faith's Shield
1 Forest
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
3 Tarmogoyf
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'm not sure what makes it the right deck to play in the MTGO meta. Maybe a little better against humans with the 4x TBR? I know this deck evolved into Shadow Jund after Gitaxian probe was banned in Modern (about a year and a half ago?)
It looks awfully similar to the new GB Infect decks that have been surfacing the online meta. I've definitely been feeling that my build could use a 3rd TBR and maybe his 5-0 finishing is another indicator of this. I rarely lose the game if I draw TBR
Draft My Cube!