Because of Mardu (with Blood Moon), I think I'd rather have the second basic than the second blue source. But I haven't played the deck, or much magic at all really, for the past month or two, so take that with a grain of salt.
The main reason to want 2 blue sources before humans blew up was because of Worldbreaker out of Tron, and maybe also Ponza - you wanted to be able to counter haymakers in those matchups even if you got a blue source blown up. (The other reason was if you played Snapcaster Mage, but I don't think that's very good).
Right now, this just doesn't seem like a major consideration.
Agreed, but that's a bad plan to begin with if you run 2 Stubs as your only counters in the entire 75..
Hello boys,
I did my promised testing,and I have included some notes:
Vs. VALUE TOWN
Not so bad but finally I lost more games than win
Discard targets were important: the Reliquary and the Tireless Tracker were the most convenient to choose. Collected Company only with Toughtsize
GQ to my Godless Shrine left me without white
Since mid game the paths hit my creatures without basic lands to look for… this was a problem.
VS. DREDGE (it was an original list, playing regular Dredge but with 4xHollow One)
Dificult pairing specially for G1s
-Creatures find always blockers returning from GY
-Fatal Push has no value here. You need exile the creatures not just killing.
-Discards are also bad they are mostly welcoming for Dredge
No answers except GY Hate.
Surgical Extraction to Prized Amalgam was a good point but not enough.
Nihil Spellbomb was also good, but it will be better with more cards in the GY. I used it too early IMHO
VS. KCI (Krark-Clan Ironworks)
Krark-Clan Ironworks is the key card that give the name to the deck
This was impossible.
Not only because the deck but also because the player (it was an OPEN champion and he dominated the KCI deck)
I played 4 games against KCI and I lost all of them.
He assembled the key parts of his combo as faster as T2 or T3 (more frequently T2)
After that he plays very long turns that he call “loops” activating and sacrifying artifacts for mana and returning artifacts from the graveyard, earning life points and drawing more cards.
Until he use a lot of mana to kill you using an Pirite Spellbomb
You cannot use Pitting Needle against activated habilities if they are considered “mana habilities” so I played Pitthing Needle naming Pirite Spellbomb
In this way he must play a longer loop in order to look for Engineered Explosives to destroy my Needle. And after that same result.
Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction are also goods to create some disruption.
But INHO only with real artifact-hate cards you can expect to do something: Stony Silence, Shatterstorm … but only with Ancient Grudge or Reclamation Sage you are dead.
Vs. Martyr’s Proc
I Win more than lost but anyway, a card like Rain of Gore would be fantastic in the SB against this type of pairings but I had not.
Vs. Counters Company
Not easy. Both decks were at the similar level.
There was a plan B as Infinite life combo using Kitchen Finks.
Vs, Merfolfs
My DS really crack this deck without big effort.
Vs. a RG Myr Superion Deck full of mana-creatures and mostly red direct damage spells.
They were easy victories. (Probably because I know well the deck because I played merfolks before)
VS. DEATH SHADOWS BUT NOT MIRROR
I played versus a Death Shadows deck playing Black, White and Red with DELVE using Gurmag Angler as major threat.
There was almost levelled but his deck had more consistency and finally I lost.
I like so much this type of deck, and probably I will try it in the near future. Gurmag in T3 is very interesting
VS. AFFINITY
I feel that my deck was a bit better than his deck, but I was afraid about poison counters.
Using Ancient Grudge, Abrupt Decay and Reclamation Sage to destroy faster the Opal Moxes and using Fata Push against his creatures.
Liliana Of the Veil was not so good because his man-lands avoiding the edicts.
Well this time was not so bad, but it is a hard deck for sure.
VS. UWR CONTROL (not the classic UW Control, because he plays LBs and Kolaghan Command also)
I used Pitting Needle against Jace TMS that was very good
Liliana Of the Veil was very good in this pairing
This pairing was not so bad, but still hard.
IN CONSEQUENCE:
My conclusions of this test are:
1)
I cannot play with only ONE BASIC LAND
I need at less ONE SWAMP AND ONE FOREST
2) I have changed my way to play the Street Wraiths.
I was cycling the Street Wraiths as soon as I draw it except if I was in a serious life problem or/and without DSs in the battlefield /hand.
Now, I have started to keep them in my hand, cycling only in turns without land in my hand.
3) My 4 SB cards of White Splash, the 3x Lingering Souls and 1x Godless Shrine were absolutely fantastic. The best incorporation very effective against midrange creatures, Affinity, etc. It was the first time I played and they give me a very good result.
4) Blue was not good for me. Stubborn Denial is great in very specific moments, but I cannot use it in many, many others.
cannot counter creatures, when I have creatures with 4 P/T is good but before normally they will have one mana more to spend.
Moreover, I suffered once when with a 4/4 DS on the battlefield and Stubborn Denial in my hand I was ready to counter his spell... and my opponent tapped his Grove of the Burnwillows and cast his spell without problems... (I was unaware about that!)
5) I have changed a bit also my way to play the fetchlands against creature decks: except in the first three turns, I try to keep one fetch in the battlefield jut to wait for Fatla Push creatures CC3 or 4 who need Revolt.
6)
I have found serious difficulties. I must reconfigure my deck or my way to play it
NOTE: I’m not a PRO, I’m not even a good player,but just a crazy collector who loves MTG and try to improve. Understand my conclusions in this context
NOTE2: I have mixed tournaments with cassual play also. That is because there is no structured info about results but only my feelings and if I win or lost more times. Sorry.
I disagree with your Dredge evaluation - you definitely need to keep a few Pushes in to kill Stinkweed Imps so you can break through. Yes they're gonna come back but you can't beat their late game anyway. You have to punch a hole and hit them hard. I cut my Inquisitions for counters and grave hate. Keep Thoughtseize for the life loss and to take key enablers like T1 Looting on the play.
Lost to Dredge at the 33-player weekly today but this guy wins Modern Challenges and 5-0s leagues like nobody's business so I can live with it. Didn't sideboard ideally and got greedy, could have gotten 1-2 at the very least otherwise. Third place overall - I really believe the Manamorphose build absolutely still has the chops once you get comfortable with it.
Didn't board in Lingering Souls all evening, thinking I might just free up those 4 slots as I never really want to grind against grindy decks anyway.
I just want to note that he lists 12 decks that his list is at least slightly unfavorable against, while Traverse Shadow is favored against at least half of that list. I still see no reason to play Grixis over Traverse, unless you just have to play with Snapcaster Mage for some reason.
Piloted Traverse for the first time in about a month tonight and went 5-0 (beat Humans, Ponza, Bogles, Blasphemous Act, and Jund Shadow). First time I've finished so well with the deck, and while I definitely ran hot with some absurd starts, the topdecks were live all night and I found that I didn't miss Manamorphose as much as I thought. I liked the cards being mostly business outside of the normal engine, and Faithless Looting was fantastic at filtering draws (pitching Stubborn Denial in irrelevant situations, finding the game-winning Kozilek's Return against Humans). Manamorphose is still a great choice for the deck, but the list I decided on tonight felt really efficient and ran like a buzzsaw. I'll definitely keep testing with Looting and updating the removal suite here and there. Decklist here:
It's late but I did take notes and plan to do a write up later on the individual games. Will post it here once I'm through, and when they upload the round I played on stream to Youtube I may post that here as well.
Thanks! Unfortunately the guy running the camera left after round 4 vs jund shadow (featuring bomat courier), so the finals match against Humans which is probably more relevant to this meta was not on camera. I'll include a match report when they stream it on monday.
The Tarfires were pretty medium; the idea was to go efficient to Traverse ASAP and get some huge Goyfs, but the Tribal wasn't relevant as much as I thought it would be. I can see how it sets up quick Traverses if you want to fire it off, and against Humans I luckily wasn't punished for not running multiple Bolts instead. Other than that match, the 2 damage vs 3 was pretty negligible, but I like having at least 2 direct damage spells somewhere in the 75 as they're pretty flexible. For example in G1 against Bogles, after Thoughtseizing his Ledgewalker and casting DS, he was forced to fetch for a Dryad Arbor. I Dismembered it, Tarfired myself, and suddenly he was on a 2 turn clock. Whether you play those, Seal of Fire, Bolt, even additional Decays etc seems like personal preference, but I enjoyed the flexibility of direct damage with the more low to the ground list than trying to hold up Decays for problem permanents.
I'm thinking about this deck and I have a couple of questions:
1) Must I play more aggressively the mulligans?
I'm not very comfortable with Mulligan, so if I have one land and one discard spell. I go.
Perhaps could be fine mulligan upto get one land + one discard spell + one Tarmo or Grim flayer in order to be sure you get a T2 threat. And if you have a DS in opening hand check if you have enough fetchs+TSs+Dismember auto-damage to have the DS at T3
2) is really impossible to play Gurmag if you keep the Delirium suite (Tarmos and traverses, perhaps not the Grim)?
Thanks.
Congratulations on the finish! Mostly curious how you liked Architects and KCommand, and whether you brought Souls in at all. I'm really looking to free up those 4 slots from my sideboard but maybe it's wrong.
My only gripe is the same one I have with most of these lists that don't run Manamorphose: after sideboarding, red is a seriously important color in the matchups where you bring in red cards, as they all tend to come in quite often (against Affinity, Hollow One, Humans..) and then your sole Blood Crypt has to carry the game. The second red source is really important after sideboarding but there's no spot for it in the maindeck unless we warp the rest of the 60 around a Stomping Ground and then your counter suite suffers as a result. Another reason why I like Manamorphose..
What is e consensus on sweeper of choice out of the sideboard? Radiant flames? I think Anger of the Gods seems too red-intensive but I could be wrong.
Totally new to this archetype. Finally acquired the pieces to put this together (porting over from UBx Death's Shadow decks I've played for the last 2 years). I think Fatal Push is the main reason Grix Shadow is more popular than this version, but if you look at the competitive metagame, lists are running less and less FP. Even Jund and Grixis are running max 1-2 copies. So now I think is the time to switch over to this version. A few other questions I've had:
Tarfire over Architects of Will - doesn't it make more sense to use Tarfire? The flexibility of being a removal spell or a buff to your Shadow with the bonus of delirium fuel...vs only a cantrip that doubles down on delirium.
3 or 4 Traverse - what is the best number and why? And does it make sense to Max out your Traverse before including your first copy of Grim Flayer?
Kolaghan's Command - recently several pros have made a solid case for not including K-Command in the maindeck of Shadow variants. I guess this depends on your local meta?
Most of the lists I see placing on mtgtop8 include a maindeck Snapcaster. But I'm not seeing much love for Snappy in lists here in the thread. Thoughts?
Not much to add there, Spooly said it best. One thing i would like to point out is that Humans tend to run Auriok Champion out of the sideboard against us, which dodges Radiant Flames completely. I like Kozilek's Return but it doesn't hit a few of their other cards either. Meta call.
Grixis is definitely the more popular deck but I'm not sure why either. Their manabase is smoother for sure and they get some strong sideboard options that we simply don't have room for. They grind better but we do a pretty decent job too post-board. But yeah, Snapcaster is a hell of a card whichever way you look at it.
Oh and Traverse is an automatic 4-of, we only run 8 or 9 real threats and this helps you find them. Post-board it's a shortcut to your silver bullets and sometimes you can use it to find a fetch (into shock for lethal Shadow, to turn on revolt, find that one red land for TBR, etc. ) or Street Wraith to dig deeper.. It also lets you keep one-landers on occasion as you can just Traverse for a basic land turn 1. No contest, always play 4.
What is e consensus on sweeper of choice out of the sideboard? Radiant flames? I think Anger of the Gods seems too red-intensive but I could be wrong.
Totally new to this archetype. Finally acquired the pieces to put this together (porting over from UBx Death's Shadow decks I've played for the last 2 years). I think Fatal Push is the main reason Grix Shadow is more popular than this version, but if you look at the competitive metagame, lists are running less and less FP. Even Jund and Grixis are running max 1-2 copies. So now I think is the time to switch over to this version. A few other questions I've had:
Tarfire over Architects of Will - doesn't it make more sense to use Tarfire? The flexibility of being a removal spell or a buff to your Shadow with the bonus of delirium fuel...vs only a cantrip that doubles down on delirium.
3 or 4 Traverse - what is the best number and why? And does it make sense to Max out your Traverse before including your first copy of Grim Flayer?
Kolaghan's Command - recently several pros have made a solid case for not including K-Command in the maindeck of Shadow variants. I guess this depends on your local meta?
Most of the lists I see placing on mtgtop8 include a maindeck Snapcaster. But I'm not seeing much love for Snappy in lists here in the thread. Thoughts?
Radiant Flames or Kozilek's Return are the best sweepers, depending on the decks you expect to face. Flames is definitely the best vs. Humans, though you should be running 2 Grim Lavamancer in your SB to fight that matchup before you think about sweepers.
I think the biggest reason Grixis sees more play than Traverse is that people are addicted to playing Snapcaster Mage. It's a fun card to play! But I'm not sure the Grixis shell ever really was better. You're right that the amount of fatal push in the format is a key reason why Grixis might be better. But you can usually find a Traverse shell that is better than the Grixis shell in any given format. (Not that finding it is easy, or that worse Traverse shells will be as good as Grixis).
Absolutely max out on Traverse. And probably on Manamorphose too. Humans is on the downswing in most places, and Manamorphose is just makes the deck hum. I'm not sure finding space for a Flayer is worth it unless you aren't running Manamorphose.
K Command is a SB card at best. 3 mana is too much most of the time, and against a lot of decks it's pretty low impact. In Grixis it at least gives you access to the Snap + K Command grind plan, but even then, that's mana intensive and slow. Right now, the best flexible-but-good-against-artifacts card to have in the SB is Abrade. Cheap red removal is really valuable against humans, and cheap artifact destruction is really valuable against Hollow One.
Snapcaster is a SB card at best too, again because of how mana intensive it is. Also, Snap + Stub is hard to pull off in this shell because getting double blue is so hard (some lists don't even have 2 blue lands in the deck!), which reduces the utility of Snappy. Anyway, right now you should probably only have 1 blue land and 2 red lands to fuel Lavamancer + red removal (like Abrade or Lightning Bolt).
Have you been playing more recently, Spooly? If so, what does your deck look like now?
Have you tried out Friedman's idea about the Faithless looting instead of manamorphose?
I haven't played much at all lately, and when I have it's been this shell.
But I have spent some time thinking about how to build Traverse Shadow in the current metagame, especially now that humans is being pushed out a bit, and Tron is rising up to prey on these silly control decks. But I still don't have a ton of time right now. If I were grinding real events - like the modern pptq season that is about to occur - I'd be thinking a lot about how to build Traverse, but probably sink all of my time into mastering KCI until something gets banned* or the metagame truly adapts to it.
* I don't think it deserves a ban, but it might push WOTC's buttons enough to end up getting one.
That's something like the SB I have sleeved up anyway. I'm not as sure about the details there. Maybe I want a grindy haymaker, or maybe I just want to try to get under those decks (control & mardu) or dodge them (jund). There's also an argument for making the Spellbombs into something stronger against KCI - e.g. Surgicals. But I do know that I want those bolts in the MD for humans. And no, they shouldn't be Tarfire - you gotta kill Mantis Rider.
If I were to consider changing this configuration, I could see cutting the 2 Stubs for 2 Faithless Looting to improve consistency and filter through air/lands as the game progresses. What's preventing me so far is the fear of losing the additional axis of interaction that Stub provides.
A change that I think is more in line with that you have indicated in your previous post is cutting 1 Push and 2 Denials for 2 Bolts and the Temur Battle Rage #3. Between the additional reach that Bolt provides (while also allowing for more explosive Shadows) and the absence of Stubborn Denial, I think the 3rd Battle Rage gives us back the relative "speed" we lose by being able to timewalk our opponent with Stub.
In the event that blue is cut entirely from the maindeck, we have the opportunity to reconsider what colour we would like to splash out of the sideboard. I still a huge fan of blue, but a white package of 3x Souls takes up less space than 3 Stub + 2 Delay, and it gives us more flexibility to play the grind game if appropriate for the matchup.
Finally, I think your musings about Surgical are really interesting. With 8 discard spells, coupled with it being a "free" spell that also grows our Shadows, I think there's a lot to be said for Surgical. Will definitely have to think about it some more.
Yeah, I don't really see the value of Looting given all of the other cantrips we are running. If we had something we could discard for value like Lingering Souls, I'd be more on board. But also, paying mana for air is just not something I want to do in this shell. I want my air to be free!
On blue vs. white, I think it's a question of how much will access to those cards move the needle in the matchups they impact. Countermagic helps a lot vs all of the combo decks, burn & bogles and other weirdo aggro/combo decks, and big mana decks, and helps some to try to get under some of the control and midrange decks. In the control and midrange matchups, Lingering Souls helps a little bit more - having a higher impact in some matchups than others, and helps in a few aggro matchups. But it's just not the slam dunk it used to be against a lot of these decks. Now that Jund has BBE, they can get wide and force damage through too easily to try to play a grindy long game against them. Souls helps, don't get me wrong, but they can fight it when getting one attacker through means a bolt kills us. And Souls isn't the best to help the Jeskai matchup since, going long, bolt + snap + bolt is live to just kill you from nowhere. Stubborn Denial, on the other hand, is pretty hot vs. Teferi. Against Mardu, your Souls plan is just a worse version of theirs w/ Pyromancer on top of things, especially when they're live to lock you out with Blood Moon, so getting under them is often just a better plan. Plus, again, random burn can kill you from nowhere.
So if white is to become the new 4th color, I think it needs to justify itself in ways beyond Lingering Souls. A key point here is that when we side into super-grindy game plan against these midrange and control decks, we're often only getting slightly more grindy than the deck we're playing against. Sometimes not even as grindy as them. But we still have this massive disadvantage where our deck deals a ton of damage to us in order to turn on a key threat, so a stiff breeze is enough to lethal us. Between bolts, flying threats, and just going wide, all of the grindy decks seeing much play in the format have plenty of ways to steal wins when we prolong the game. This makes Lingering Souls less of the haymaker it once was.
Agreed, but that's a bad plan to begin with if you run 2 Stubs as your only counters in the entire 75..
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I did my promised testing,and I have included some notes:
Vs. VALUE TOWN
Not so bad but finally I lost more games than win
Discard targets were important: the Reliquary and the Tireless Tracker were the most convenient to choose. Collected Company only with Toughtsize
GQ to my Godless Shrine left me without white
Since mid game the paths hit my creatures without basic lands to look for… this was a problem.
VS. DREDGE (it was an original list, playing regular Dredge but with 4xHollow One)
Dificult pairing specially for G1s
-Creatures find always blockers returning from GY
-Fatal Push has no value here. You need exile the creatures not just killing.
-Discards are also bad they are mostly welcoming for Dredge
No answers except GY Hate.
Surgical Extraction to Prized Amalgam was a good point but not enough.
Nihil Spellbomb was also good, but it will be better with more cards in the GY. I used it too early IMHO
VS. KCI (Krark-Clan Ironworks)
Krark-Clan Ironworks is the key card that give the name to the deck
This was impossible.
Not only because the deck but also because the player (it was an OPEN champion and he dominated the KCI deck)
I played 4 games against KCI and I lost all of them.
He assembled the key parts of his combo as faster as T2 or T3 (more frequently T2)
After that he plays very long turns that he call “loops” activating and sacrifying artifacts for mana and returning artifacts from the graveyard, earning life points and drawing more cards.
Until he use a lot of mana to kill you using an Pirite Spellbomb
You cannot use Pitting Needle against activated habilities if they are considered “mana habilities” so I played Pitthing Needle naming Pirite Spellbomb
In this way he must play a longer loop in order to look for Engineered Explosives to destroy my Needle. And after that same result.
Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction are also goods to create some disruption.
But INHO only with real artifact-hate cards you can expect to do something: Stony Silence, Shatterstorm … but only with Ancient Grudge or Reclamation Sage you are dead.
Vs. Martyr’s Proc
I Win more than lost but anyway, a card like Rain of Gore would be fantastic in the SB against this type of pairings but I had not.
Vs. Counters Company
Not easy. Both decks were at the similar level.
There was a plan B as Infinite life combo using Kitchen Finks.
Vs, Merfolfs
My DS really crack this deck without big effort.
Vs. a RG Myr Superion Deck full of mana-creatures and mostly red direct damage spells.
They were easy victories. (Probably because I know well the deck because I played merfolks before)
VS. DEATH SHADOWS BUT NOT MIRROR
I played versus a Death Shadows deck playing Black, White and Red with DELVE using Gurmag Angler as major threat.
There was almost levelled but his deck had more consistency and finally I lost.
I like so much this type of deck, and probably I will try it in the near future. Gurmag in T3 is very interesting
VS. AFFINITY
I feel that my deck was a bit better than his deck, but I was afraid about poison counters.
Using Ancient Grudge, Abrupt Decay and Reclamation Sage to destroy faster the Opal Moxes and using Fata Push against his creatures.
Liliana Of the Veil was not so good because his man-lands avoiding the edicts.
Well this time was not so bad, but it is a hard deck for sure.
VS. UWR CONTROL (not the classic UW Control, because he plays LBs and Kolaghan Command also)
I used Pitting Needle against Jace TMS that was very good
Liliana Of the Veil was very good in this pairing
This pairing was not so bad, but still hard.
IN CONSEQUENCE:
My conclusions of this test are:
1)
I cannot play with only ONE BASIC LAND
I need at less ONE SWAMP AND ONE FOREST
2) I have changed my way to play the Street Wraiths.
I was cycling the Street Wraiths as soon as I draw it except if I was in a serious life problem or/and without DSs in the battlefield /hand.
Now, I have started to keep them in my hand, cycling only in turns without land in my hand.
3) My 4 SB cards of White Splash, the 3x Lingering Souls and 1x Godless Shrine were absolutely fantastic. The best incorporation very effective against midrange creatures, Affinity, etc. It was the first time I played and they give me a very good result.
4) Blue was not good for me. Stubborn Denial is great in very specific moments, but I cannot use it in many, many others.
cannot counter creatures, when I have creatures with 4 P/T is good but before normally they will have one mana more to spend.
Moreover, I suffered once when with a 4/4 DS on the battlefield and Stubborn Denial in my hand I was ready to counter his spell... and my opponent tapped his Grove of the Burnwillows and cast his spell without problems... (I was unaware about that!)
5) I have changed a bit also my way to play the fetchlands against creature decks: except in the first three turns, I try to keep one fetch in the battlefield jut to wait for Fatla Push creatures CC3 or 4 who need Revolt.
6)
I have found serious difficulties. I must reconfigure my deck or my way to play it
NOTE: I’m not a PRO, I’m not even a good player,but just a crazy collector who loves MTG and try to improve. Understand my conclusions in this context
NOTE2: I have mixed tournaments with cassual play also. That is because there is no structured info about results but only my feelings and if I win or lost more times. Sorry.
Thanks
Lost to Dredge at the 33-player weekly today but this guy wins Modern Challenges and 5-0s leagues like nobody's business so I can live with it. Didn't sideboard ideally and got greedy, could have gotten 1-2 at the very least otherwise. Third place overall - I really believe the Manamorphose build absolutely still has the chops once you get comfortable with it.
Didn't board in Lingering Souls all evening, thinking I might just free up those 4 slots as I never really want to grind against grindy decks anyway.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I just want to note that he lists 12 decks that his list is at least slightly unfavorable against, while Traverse Shadow is favored against at least half of that list. I still see no reason to play Grixis over Traverse, unless you just have to play with Snapcaster Mage for some reason.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Spells:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
2 Tarfire
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Faithless Looting
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
It's late but I did take notes and plan to do a write up later on the individual games. Will post it here once I'm through, and when they upload the round I played on stream to Youtube I may post that here as well.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
The Tarfires were pretty medium; the idea was to go efficient to Traverse ASAP and get some huge Goyfs, but the Tribal wasn't relevant as much as I thought it would be. I can see how it sets up quick Traverses if you want to fire it off, and against Humans I luckily wasn't punished for not running multiple Bolts instead. Other than that match, the 2 damage vs 3 was pretty negligible, but I like having at least 2 direct damage spells somewhere in the 75 as they're pretty flexible. For example in G1 against Bogles, after Thoughtseizing his Ledgewalker and casting DS, he was forced to fetch for a Dryad Arbor. I Dismembered it, Tarfired myself, and suddenly he was on a 2 turn clock. Whether you play those, Seal of Fire, Bolt, even additional Decays etc seems like personal preference, but I enjoyed the flexibility of direct damage with the more low to the ground list than trying to hold up Decays for problem permanents.
1) Must I play more aggressively the mulligans?
I'm not very comfortable with Mulligan, so if I have one land and one discard spell. I go.
Perhaps could be fine mulligan upto get one land + one discard spell + one Tarmo or Grim flayer in order to be sure you get a T2 threat. And if you have a DS in opening hand check if you have enough fetchs+TSs+Dismember auto-damage to have the DS at T3
2) is really impossible to play Gurmag if you keep the Delirium suite (Tarmos and traverses, perhaps not the Grim)?
Thanks.
Question 2 - yeah, no thought scour and focus on fast delirium make angler a very bad option for our deck.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
My only gripe is the same one I have with most of these lists that don't run Manamorphose: after sideboarding, red is a seriously important color in the matchups where you bring in red cards, as they all tend to come in quite often (against Affinity, Hollow One, Humans..) and then your sole Blood Crypt has to carry the game. The second red source is really important after sideboarding but there's no spot for it in the maindeck unless we warp the rest of the 60 around a Stomping Ground and then your counter suite suffers as a result. Another reason why I like Manamorphose..
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Totally new to this archetype. Finally acquired the pieces to put this together (porting over from UBx Death's Shadow decks I've played for the last 2 years). I think Fatal Push is the main reason Grix Shadow is more popular than this version, but if you look at the competitive metagame, lists are running less and less FP. Even Jund and Grixis are running max 1-2 copies. So now I think is the time to switch over to this version. A few other questions I've had:
Tarfire over Architects of Will - doesn't it make more sense to use Tarfire? The flexibility of being a removal spell or a buff to your Shadow with the bonus of delirium fuel...vs only a cantrip that doubles down on delirium.
3 or 4 Traverse - what is the best number and why? And does it make sense to Max out your Traverse before including your first copy of Grim Flayer?
Kolaghan's Command - recently several pros have made a solid case for not including K-Command in the maindeck of Shadow variants. I guess this depends on your local meta?
Most of the lists I see placing on mtgtop8 include a maindeck Snapcaster. But I'm not seeing much love for Snappy in lists here in the thread. Thoughts?
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
1 Snapcaster mage
1 Ghor-clan rampager
Inst/Sorc
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Temur battle rage
2 Tarfire
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery grave
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Lingering souls
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fulminator mage
1 Radiant flames
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the last hope
Draft My Cube!
Grixis is definitely the more popular deck but I'm not sure why either. Their manabase is smoother for sure and they get some strong sideboard options that we simply don't have room for. They grind better but we do a pretty decent job too post-board. But yeah, Snapcaster is a hell of a card whichever way you look at it.
Oh and Traverse is an automatic 4-of, we only run 8 or 9 real threats and this helps you find them. Post-board it's a shortcut to your silver bullets and sometimes you can use it to find a fetch (into shock for lethal Shadow, to turn on revolt, find that one red land for TBR, etc. ) or Street Wraith to dig deeper.. It also lets you keep one-landers on occasion as you can just Traverse for a basic land turn 1. No contest, always play 4.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Radiant Flames or Kozilek's Return are the best sweepers, depending on the decks you expect to face. Flames is definitely the best vs. Humans, though you should be running 2 Grim Lavamancer in your SB to fight that matchup before you think about sweepers.
I think the biggest reason Grixis sees more play than Traverse is that people are addicted to playing Snapcaster Mage. It's a fun card to play! But I'm not sure the Grixis shell ever really was better. You're right that the amount of fatal push in the format is a key reason why Grixis might be better. But you can usually find a Traverse shell that is better than the Grixis shell in any given format. (Not that finding it is easy, or that worse Traverse shells will be as good as Grixis).
Absolutely max out on Traverse. And probably on Manamorphose too. Humans is on the downswing in most places, and Manamorphose is just makes the deck hum. I'm not sure finding space for a Flayer is worth it unless you aren't running Manamorphose.
K Command is a SB card at best. 3 mana is too much most of the time, and against a lot of decks it's pretty low impact. In Grixis it at least gives you access to the Snap + K Command grind plan, but even then, that's mana intensive and slow. Right now, the best flexible-but-good-against-artifacts card to have in the SB is Abrade. Cheap red removal is really valuable against humans, and cheap artifact destruction is really valuable against Hollow One.
Snapcaster is a SB card at best too, again because of how mana intensive it is. Also, Snap + Stub is hard to pull off in this shell because getting double blue is so hard (some lists don't even have 2 blue lands in the deck!), which reduces the utility of Snappy. Anyway, right now you should probably only have 1 blue land and 2 red lands to fuel Lavamancer + red removal (like Abrade or Lightning Bolt).
Have you tried out Friedman's idea about the Faithless looting instead of manamorphose?
I haven't played much at all lately, and when I have it's been this shell.
But I have spent some time thinking about how to build Traverse Shadow in the current metagame, especially now that humans is being pushed out a bit, and Tron is rising up to prey on these silly control decks. But I still don't have a ton of time right now. If I were grinding real events - like the modern pptq season that is about to occur - I'd be thinking a lot about how to build Traverse, but probably sink all of my time into mastering KCI until something gets banned* or the metagame truly adapts to it.
* I don't think it deserves a ban, but it might push WOTC's buttons enough to end up getting one.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
12 threats (including traverse)
12 cantrips (including manamorphose)
8 discard spells
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Radiant Flames
2 Abrade
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Delay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Collective Brutality
That's something like the SB I have sleeved up anyway. I'm not as sure about the details there. Maybe I want a grindy haymaker, or maybe I just want to try to get under those decks (control & mardu) or dodge them (jund). There's also an argument for making the Spellbombs into something stronger against KCI - e.g. Surgicals. But I do know that I want those bolts in the MD for humans. And no, they shouldn't be Tarfire - you gotta kill Mantis Rider.
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Manamorphose
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Abrade
2 Collective Brutality
2 Delay
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stubborn Denial
If I were to consider changing this configuration, I could see cutting the 2 Stubs for 2 Faithless Looting to improve consistency and filter through air/lands as the game progresses. What's preventing me so far is the fear of losing the additional axis of interaction that Stub provides.
A change that I think is more in line with that you have indicated in your previous post is cutting 1 Push and 2 Denials for 2 Bolts and the Temur Battle Rage #3. Between the additional reach that Bolt provides (while also allowing for more explosive Shadows) and the absence of Stubborn Denial, I think the 3rd Battle Rage gives us back the relative "speed" we lose by being able to timewalk our opponent with Stub.
In the event that blue is cut entirely from the maindeck, we have the opportunity to reconsider what colour we would like to splash out of the sideboard. I still a huge fan of blue, but a white package of 3x Souls takes up less space than 3 Stub + 2 Delay, and it gives us more flexibility to play the grind game if appropriate for the matchup.
Finally, I think your musings about Surgical are really interesting. With 8 discard spells, coupled with it being a "free" spell that also grows our Shadows, I think there's a lot to be said for Surgical. Will definitely have to think about it some more.
On blue vs. white, I think it's a question of how much will access to those cards move the needle in the matchups they impact. Countermagic helps a lot vs all of the combo decks, burn & bogles and other weirdo aggro/combo decks, and big mana decks, and helps some to try to get under some of the control and midrange decks. In the control and midrange matchups, Lingering Souls helps a little bit more - having a higher impact in some matchups than others, and helps in a few aggro matchups. But it's just not the slam dunk it used to be against a lot of these decks. Now that Jund has BBE, they can get wide and force damage through too easily to try to play a grindy long game against them. Souls helps, don't get me wrong, but they can fight it when getting one attacker through means a bolt kills us. And Souls isn't the best to help the Jeskai matchup since, going long, bolt + snap + bolt is live to just kill you from nowhere. Stubborn Denial, on the other hand, is pretty hot vs. Teferi. Against Mardu, your Souls plan is just a worse version of theirs w/ Pyromancer on top of things, especially when they're live to lock you out with Blood Moon, so getting under them is often just a better plan. Plus, again, random burn can kill you from nowhere.
So if white is to become the new 4th color, I think it needs to justify itself in ways beyond Lingering Souls. A key point here is that when we side into super-grindy game plan against these midrange and control decks, we're often only getting slightly more grindy than the deck we're playing against. Sometimes not even as grindy as them. But we still have this massive disadvantage where our deck deals a ton of damage to us in order to turn on a key threat, so a stiff breeze is enough to lethal us. Between bolts, flying threats, and just going wide, all of the grindy decks seeing much play in the format have plenty of ways to steal wins when we prolong the game. This makes Lingering Souls less of the haymaker it once was.