Minister of Pain isn't quite Izzet staticaster, but it's still really good against Mardu Pyro. I opted for anger of the gods in my sideboard instead because now our mana is amazing and we can afford to play double red. The minister can be traversed for though, which is sweet.
We also aren't susceptible to blood moon any more, which may surprise your Mardu opponent now.
Overall, the matchup is probably close. We both have really powerful tools. They have Reveler+Souls+Pyromancer, we have Traverse+Kcommand+BBE.
But Traverse Shadow instead makes the 3/2 body itself more relevant and it plays WAY more effective copies of BBE. I usually drown my opponent in BBE's. It is not uncommon to cast a BBE multiple turns in a row until my opponent is dead.
Essentially Jund gets manlands, Shadow gets Traverse.
Jund gets Bob/Ooze, Shadow gets.. Shadow.
Jund gets Liliana, Shadow gets zero mana cantrips.
Shadow is also happy to play all 4 thoughtseize which is now really relevant with the amount of 4+ drops being played now.
So I tried this list last night (Got a 2-2 result).
Lost against Mono W Taxes and Grixis Control. Won against Jeskai Control and Gideon Tribal.
I have did however shave 1 Grim Flayer for the 4th Goyf, and played dropped 2 x Dreadbore and 1 x K-com for 3 x Lily's.
My feedback is: Can we drop 4 x Mishra's Bauble and add 4 x Architects of Will? My 3 first Bloodbraid Elf's hit Mishra's Bauble and it sucked. It still draws you a card and adds Creature and Artifact to the yard, but its not a poor hit with Bloodbraid Elf. What do you think? I'll try 4 as soon as I get the cards.
I played about 15-20 games last night with geneyquakes' list last night and had pretty good success against a variety of builds. Some thoughts / comments based on a small sample size:
I liked the list a lot. It is really aggressive and gets to a point where you just BBE the opponent every turn. It has more of a "normal jund" feel to it than some of the 4/5c shadow decks, so I agree it is more of a Traverse deck than a "Shadow" deck. I felt like I was playing Jund but instead of gambling w bob and using him for my CA engine I simply put out huge beaters and searched up BBE after BBE to end the game quickly rather than "durdle" with a 24-25 land midrange build.
The fourth Goyf is definitely needed but I'm not sure where to cut for him yet. The obvious choice is the second Grim Flayer, but I really like the high threat density and Flayer is such a beating in a lot of matchups. I could see the cut also being something like the second Dreadbore.
The mana base was pretty good. The addition of a few basics helps a bunch against Field of Ruin / Path to Exile and also has applications to save some life when needed. The key really is to use Traverse even for basics to ensure you have 4 mana on turn four and then just start the BBE beatings, like geneyquakes mentioned.
For some reason I felt like I couldn't put out Death's Shadow as quickly as I can with the 4/5 color versions. Probably has to do w a somewhat less vital need to shock yourself into oblivion with only 3 colors, but could also just be variance.
I thought I would miss not having any Liliana of the Veil or Inquisition of Kozilek in the 75, but it wasn't that noticeable.
The addition of tribal and enchantment types in Tarfire and Seal of Fire really helps a lot with ensuring Delirium for Traversing to BBEs asap as well as huge goyfs. I don't think I ever swung with smaller than a 5/6 all night.
I'm not a huge fan of the sideboard but its mostly personal preference here. I don't think any of the choices are objectively wrong. Cards I would probably not run based on years of "normal" jund experience and a handful of months of shadow experience:
I would be interested in fitting in some combination of Temur Battle Rage, Liliana of the Veil or Last Hope, Maelstrom Pulse, an extra Collective Brutality or two, Kozileks return or Anger of the Gods in the board over the above choices right now. I feel that TBR is still the best plan against decks where I would want blood moon, and Jund Charm while decent seems better served as a dedicated sweeper effect to me. Given that the main only runs 4 Thoughtseize as its targeted discard I could totally see a world where I would want more than just the two brutalities in the board given their ridiculous versatility.
I spent a lot of time trying to make Grim Flayer work in Jund when he was spoiled and never got consistent delirium until these street wraith / mishra's bauble shells became a reality. During that time I thought about utilizing traverse too since I was jumping through so many hoops to enable delirium but just couldn't see how to fit it in. This variant is kind of what I was trying to get to work but never cracked, so I'm kind of excited to test it more.
I think you're severely understating the moon effects in this build. You stated your reasoning was your experience with regular jund.
The moon plays out much differently here than in regular jund. You'll have access to the effect a lot more consistently because of traverse, and this deck doesn't rely on manlands as additional threats. You also will almost never screw yourself with it because the deck has 12 fetches and 4 traverse vs Jund's 9ish fetches. This deck is also much better at applying pressure, so the disruption given from the moon is a lot more substantial. Regular jund could give the opponent enough time to draw out of their color screw.
I mean we need something for big mana and such, were you planning on packing a bunch of fulminator instead? I don't think that is as good, but I guess it is an option I can start testing.
EDIT: oh, you want to play TBR in that slot to just kill them instead of trying to disrupt them. Hmm. That's an option I hadn't really considered. That's probably also reasonable. I'm not sure we could actually race them without the blue counter magic, but I guess BBE could also change things.
I just don't feel the need for that many threats at all, and I would much rather have more interaction spells. The BBE's alone make the deck already way more threat dense than we have ever been, and you're adding even more with the grim flayers. I don't think we need more dudes.
I'm curious to those who are running a basic mountain how bad the downsides have been. I understand the upside against field of ruin, which is absolutely running rampant right now, but I also can't really wrap my head around how bad it would feel having a land that does not create green or black in the opening hand.
I'm running 19 lands as well, pretty typical, 11 fetch, 2 basic, and the extra land I have added is a second blood crypt. I have noticed that with 19 lands I have taken noticeably less mulligans than before. I'm scared that a basic mountain would lead much more mulligans on average but maybe it's not enough to outweigh the field of ruin effect benefit? Maybe it's just a meta call and neither is correct?
I think you're severely understating the moon effects in this build. You stated your reasoning was your experience with regular jund.
The moon plays out much differently here than in regular jund. You'll have access to the effect a lot more consistently because of traverse, and this deck doesn't rely on manlands as additional threats. You also will almost never screw yourself with it because the deck has 12 fetches and 4 traverse vs Jund's 9ish fetches. This deck is also much better at applying pressure, so the disruption given from the moon is a lot more substantial. Regular jund could give the opponent enough time to draw out of their color screw.
I mean we need something for big mana and such, were you planning on packing a bunch of fulminator instead? I don't think that is as good, but I guess it is an option I can start testing.
EDIT: oh, you want to play TBR in that slot to just kill them instead of trying to disrupt them. Hmm. That's an option I hadn't really considered. That's probably also reasonable. I'm not sure we could actually race them without the blue counter magic, but I guess BBE could also change things.
Yea, I think I would rather just try to race and call it a day. My experience with blood moon against things like tron is its nice as a delay but it doesn't necessarily win the game on its own. Other folks may have different opinions and tactics here. I guess I could have explained my thinking better, but in many ways I agree with this angle posited by geneyquakes:
. Against removal heavy decks where your turn two Goyf often dies, you probably don't want TBR anyway. Against Affinity, Storm, Tron, Valakut and the like - matches where you very much want Battle Rage - your turn two and three creatures are much more likely to be alive when elf flips over a TBR on turn 4, and this will quite often represent lethal.
When fighting linear strategies I would rather just have TBR as my card to board in to rather than something like blood moon. I also am not a huge fan of fulminator mages and am always on the lookout for something better in those slots too. I've gone so far as to replace them with Anathemancer to varying degrees of success at times - again, just looking to push through those last few points of damage rather than simply trying to grind the opp out.
Well the current version I'm playing has 21 red spells in the 75 (2 of which are Anger), 23 black spells, and 14 green.
So as crazy as it sounds, I need red just as much as black! So while mountain would have been awful in previous versions of the deck (I thought similarly to you, and cut the basic mountain at first) I quickly added it back in. Field of Ruin is rampant, the deck leans on Traverse as a manasource more often than ever, and I'm playing a lot of reach and kcommands and dreadbores and such.
I don't think Architects of Will is completely unreasonable, especially because it is also a creature, but Bauble costing zero mana while this costs 1 is a huge plus. In addition, the selection off of Bauble is very important. It is great with the all of the fetchlands in the deck, especially with the added 4 drops. Definitely interested to hear about your thoughts if you do test them out.
I will say that if you add architects then you probably want to find room for a Breeding Pool, probably in place of a Bloodstained Mire. Everyone knows that casting Street Wraith is never plan A, but it does happen. Architects not having Swampwalk hurts, but there are times when a Hill Giant would be better than a random card.
@dcovino
Thanks for the feedback, it is super helpful to have some other people give it a whirl and add some other perspectives.
I really like Grim Flayer so I am definitely happy to play it, but I am not sure of the exact number of creatures you want to play. Adding the elves already bumps the threat density up from normal Shadow, but having more for turn 2 is something to think about.
I also think the mana base feels quite good, I am pretty confident you want the basic mountain even if you don't love it in your opening hand sometimes. It matters not only against Field of Ruin but also against Burn, Affinity, and also control decks with Lightning Bolt.
You are right that Shadow often doesn't come out as big or as quickly in this deck. I still tend to just fetch-shock early against anything but burn, but you can still maintain pretty good closing speed even without being super cavalier with your life total. Also, as you mentioned, this decks Goyfs are massive and you have more burn than normal so it can often balance out.
I am also not sure about some of the sideboard. I am a bit sketchy on Jund Charm but it was fine as a Pyroclasm effect. There is value to the graveyard hate side of it but a three mana Tormod's Crypt is unspectacular (if you want that effect plus extra Rakdos Charm could be better, or just Nihil Spellbomb). I haven't gone as far as adding enchantment Blood Moons, but Magus as a Traverse target has been a nice option. I could definitely get behind more Collective Brutalities, because Burn is close but tricky and resolving a Brutality usually pushes you over the edge. Extra Duresses is also a boon against combo and control, where you want less removal but these can still work as reach. I haven't tried TBR yet but I think it is worth a shot. I agree that sometimes this is the best sideboard plan against random nonsense. I have played Grixis Shadow with zero graveyard hate and just planned to trample over. Planeswalkers would also bump the power level up, but Fulminator Mages also work pretty well in a lot of the same matchups, especially with so many Kolaghan's Commands.
I am pretty happy with the core shell of the deck, but there is still a lot to play around with and I have almost certainly made a few mistakes somewhere. Chaining Bloodbraid Elves and punching people in the face with them, however, is definitely something I will be trying to do quite a bit of in the near future.
I will agree that you don't often want the basic mountain in your opening hand, but I think you do need/want it in the deck. The deck is quite red heavy, and also needs 4th untapped mana later on. With normal Shadow you will often play three shocks but then slow down later on and put them in tapped to play a bit more carefully, and the deck doesn't have a lot of 4-mana plays to begin with. Bloodbraid Elf and Lightning Bolt are two of the big reasons to play this deck, so you want to be able to play them with flexibility and on time. This deck also sometimes secretly loves getting Pathed to Exiled, because BBE and Command get quite mana hungry and having three basics gives you better options here. I would consider Grim Flayer one of the only big arguments against the mountain, but it doesn't overtake the other issues. There are no maindeck Abrupt Decays or Lilianas, and most of the removal is at least partially red.
I actually do think there could easily be merit to the second Blood Crypt (I have always liked the second Blood Crypt in Grixis Shadow for an extra fetchable), but my instinct would be to replace a fetch, not the mountain.
@qel- yes, I've been thoroughly impressed with the deck. You don't totally smash the unfair decks in the same way that 4/5c Shadow did (no Stub and less hand disruption), but I still feel okay there, and in return I also feel favored in almost any fair matchup now too (UW can still be rough). Like Geneyquakes said, you just chain BBE's. The deck feels closer to a sleek oldschool Jund than the traditional Traverse Shadow. Instead of grinding with Confidant/Ooze/Liliana, we get 1 mana 8/8's and A LOT of BBE's to just overwhelm them instead.
The manabase is amazing. Also something that hasn't really been mentioned yet is that the BBE version is a lot easier to play. I know that part of the draw of the deck is that its fun to tinker around with all of these little decisions and such. There's still Bauble/Wraith tricks, but the deck is much less exhausting to play, which is a big plus when you're planning on playing 9 rounds in a day.
You'll never have complicated fetching decisions, you almost always get another BBE if you have the mana to cast her, you don't have to decide when you can and can't leave blue mana up, etc.
The manabase is amazing. Also something that hasn't really been mentioned yet is that the BBE version is a lot easier to play. I know that part of the draw of the deck is that its fun to tinker around with all of these little decisions and such. There's still Bauble/Wraith tricks, but the deck is much less exhausting to play, which is a big plus when you're planning on playing 9 rounds in a day.
You'll never have complicated fetching decisions, you almost always get another BBE if you have the mana to cast her, you don't have to decide when you can and can't leave blue mana up, etc.
I felt the same thing in testing various 3 color BBE versions over the last week as well and forgot to mention it. My brain hurts significantly less with this style of the deck than the 5 color variant. For FNM-length tournaments, it isn't a make or break consideration but playing 9+ round days all those decision trees add up to the overall mental fatigue.
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What do you side in against them? (I'll fight one tonight)
I thought about Night of soul's betrayal and some GY hate. Your thoughts?
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
4 Death's Shadow
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
2 Manamorphose
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Fatal Push
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Collective Brutality
1 Delay
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Duress
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
A 5-0 list from MTGO leagues.
Minister of Pain isn't quite Izzet staticaster, but it's still really good against Mardu Pyro. I opted for anger of the gods in my sideboard instead because now our mana is amazing and we can afford to play double red. The minister can be traversed for though, which is sweet.
We also aren't susceptible to blood moon any more, which may surprise your Mardu opponent now.
Overall, the matchup is probably close. We both have really powerful tools. They have Reveler+Souls+Pyromancer, we have Traverse+Kcommand+BBE.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
But Traverse Shadow instead makes the 3/2 body itself more relevant and it plays WAY more effective copies of BBE. I usually drown my opponent in BBE's. It is not uncommon to cast a BBE multiple turns in a row until my opponent is dead.
Essentially Jund gets manlands, Shadow gets Traverse.
Jund gets Bob/Ooze, Shadow gets.. Shadow.
Jund gets Liliana, Shadow gets zero mana cantrips.
Shadow is also happy to play all 4 thoughtseize which is now really relevant with the amount of 4+ drops being played now.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
So I tried this list last night (Got a 2-2 result).
Lost against Mono W Taxes and Grixis Control. Won against Jeskai Control and Gideon Tribal.
I have did however shave 1 Grim Flayer for the 4th Goyf, and played dropped 2 x Dreadbore and 1 x K-com for 3 x Lily's.
My feedback is: Can we drop 4 x Mishra's Bauble and add 4 x Architects of Will? My 3 first Bloodbraid Elf's hit Mishra's Bauble and it sucked. It still draws you a card and adds Creature and Artifact to the yard, but its not a poor hit with Bloodbraid Elf. What do you think? I'll try 4 as soon as I get the cards.
The former is free. The latter costs mana. So, no.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
The moon plays out much differently here than in regular jund. You'll have access to the effect a lot more consistently because of traverse, and this deck doesn't rely on manlands as additional threats. You also will almost never screw yourself with it because the deck has 12 fetches and 4 traverse vs Jund's 9ish fetches. This deck is also much better at applying pressure, so the disruption given from the moon is a lot more substantial. Regular jund could give the opponent enough time to draw out of their color screw.
I mean we need something for big mana and such, were you planning on packing a bunch of fulminator instead? I don't think that is as good, but I guess it is an option I can start testing.
EDIT: oh, you want to play TBR in that slot to just kill them instead of trying to disrupt them. Hmm. That's an option I hadn't really considered. That's probably also reasonable. I'm not sure we could actually race them without the blue counter magic, but I guess BBE could also change things.
I am going to try cutting Dreadbore entirely for a single Dismember and another Tarmogoyf. If that doesn't work I will drop 1 for a Tarmogoyf.
I'm running 19 lands as well, pretty typical, 11 fetch, 2 basic, and the extra land I have added is a second blood crypt. I have noticed that with 19 lands I have taken noticeably less mulligans than before. I'm scared that a basic mountain would lead much more mulligans on average but maybe it's not enough to outweigh the field of ruin effect benefit? Maybe it's just a meta call and neither is correct?
Yea, I think I would rather just try to race and call it a day. My experience with blood moon against things like tron is its nice as a delay but it doesn't necessarily win the game on its own. Other folks may have different opinions and tactics here. I guess I could have explained my thinking better, but in many ways I agree with this angle posited by geneyquakes:
When fighting linear strategies I would rather just have TBR as my card to board in to rather than something like blood moon. I also am not a huge fan of fulminator mages and am always on the lookout for something better in those slots too. I've gone so far as to replace them with Anathemancer to varying degrees of success at times - again, just looking to push through those last few points of damage rather than simply trying to grind the opp out.
So as crazy as it sounds, I need red just as much as black! So while mountain would have been awful in previous versions of the deck (I thought similarly to you, and cut the basic mountain at first) I quickly added it back in. Field of Ruin is rampant, the deck leans on Traverse as a manasource more often than ever, and I'm playing a lot of reach and kcommands and dreadbores and such.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Seal of Fire
2 Dreadbore
2 Fatal Push
1 Tarfire
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Collective Brutality
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Fatal Push
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command
I am thinking of bringing it to a large tournament this weekend.
I don't think Architects of Will is completely unreasonable, especially because it is also a creature, but Bauble costing zero mana while this costs 1 is a huge plus. In addition, the selection off of Bauble is very important. It is great with the all of the fetchlands in the deck, especially with the added 4 drops. Definitely interested to hear about your thoughts if you do test them out.
I will say that if you add architects then you probably want to find room for a Breeding Pool, probably in place of a Bloodstained Mire. Everyone knows that casting Street Wraith is never plan A, but it does happen. Architects not having Swampwalk hurts, but there are times when a Hill Giant would be better than a random card.
@dcovino
Thanks for the feedback, it is super helpful to have some other people give it a whirl and add some other perspectives.
I really like Grim Flayer so I am definitely happy to play it, but I am not sure of the exact number of creatures you want to play. Adding the elves already bumps the threat density up from normal Shadow, but having more for turn 2 is something to think about.
I also think the mana base feels quite good, I am pretty confident you want the basic mountain even if you don't love it in your opening hand sometimes. It matters not only against Field of Ruin but also against Burn, Affinity, and also control decks with Lightning Bolt.
You are right that Shadow often doesn't come out as big or as quickly in this deck. I still tend to just fetch-shock early against anything but burn, but you can still maintain pretty good closing speed even without being super cavalier with your life total. Also, as you mentioned, this decks Goyfs are massive and you have more burn than normal so it can often balance out.
I am also not sure about some of the sideboard. I am a bit sketchy on Jund Charm but it was fine as a Pyroclasm effect. There is value to the graveyard hate side of it but a three mana Tormod's Crypt is unspectacular (if you want that effect plus extra Rakdos Charm could be better, or just Nihil Spellbomb). I haven't gone as far as adding enchantment Blood Moons, but Magus as a Traverse target has been a nice option. I could definitely get behind more Collective Brutalities, because Burn is close but tricky and resolving a Brutality usually pushes you over the edge. Extra Duresses is also a boon against combo and control, where you want less removal but these can still work as reach. I haven't tried TBR yet but I think it is worth a shot. I agree that sometimes this is the best sideboard plan against random nonsense. I have played Grixis Shadow with zero graveyard hate and just planned to trample over. Planeswalkers would also bump the power level up, but Fulminator Mages also work pretty well in a lot of the same matchups, especially with so many Kolaghan's Commands.
I am pretty happy with the core shell of the deck, but there is still a lot to play around with and I have almost certainly made a few mistakes somewhere. Chaining Bloodbraid Elves and punching people in the face with them, however, is definitely something I will be trying to do quite a bit of in the near future.
I will agree that you don't often want the basic mountain in your opening hand, but I think you do need/want it in the deck. The deck is quite red heavy, and also needs 4th untapped mana later on. With normal Shadow you will often play three shocks but then slow down later on and put them in tapped to play a bit more carefully, and the deck doesn't have a lot of 4-mana plays to begin with. Bloodbraid Elf and Lightning Bolt are two of the big reasons to play this deck, so you want to be able to play them with flexibility and on time. This deck also sometimes secretly loves getting Pathed to Exiled, because BBE and Command get quite mana hungry and having three basics gives you better options here. I would consider Grim Flayer one of the only big arguments against the mountain, but it doesn't overtake the other issues. There are no maindeck Abrupt Decays or Lilianas, and most of the removal is at least partially red.
I actually do think there could easily be merit to the second Blood Crypt (I have always liked the second Blood Crypt in Grixis Shadow for an extra fetchable), but my instinct would be to replace a fetch, not the mountain.
The manabase is amazing. Also something that hasn't really been mentioned yet is that the BBE version is a lot easier to play. I know that part of the draw of the deck is that its fun to tinker around with all of these little decisions and such. There's still Bauble/Wraith tricks, but the deck is much less exhausting to play, which is a big plus when you're planning on playing 9 rounds in a day.
You'll never have complicated fetching decisions, you almost always get another BBE if you have the mana to cast her, you don't have to decide when you can and can't leave blue mana up, etc.
I felt the same thing in testing various 3 color BBE versions over the last week as well and forgot to mention it. My brain hurts significantly less with this style of the deck than the 5 color variant. For FNM-length tournaments, it isn't a make or break consideration but playing 9+ round days all those decision trees add up to the overall mental fatigue.