@kodieyost- I'll get you all the way to the bolt side eventually!
2 bolts is a hedge towards some strategies.
4 bolts and snaps make a solid game plan.
I plan to try it out tonight, so wish me luck!
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Stub usually requires a threat to counter anything. But if your only threat is a traverse, and you need the stub in the yard for traverse, you're in trouble. Or you're spewing the stub to make them tap a mana.
I tested between rounds of standard so a few games got cut short where it would’ve closed the game out. Had my UW Opp on 2 life for 6 turns getting my two 0/1 goyfs stonewalled by a Snapcaster (he blew relic and I drew nothing but garbage for a little while). The removal I was sandbagging got cryptic, Etc etc
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I like Selar1666's list but minus the 2 Tarfire for 3 Lightning Bolts and drop 1 Fatal Push to add that to the SB. My only issue with Tarfire is the power level of the spell in a vacuum. If the use case is:
How do we get an instant in the graveyard to enable delirium?
-I would rather jam Lightning Bolt.
However, if we just want Delirium then, I guess Tarfire... I just don't like the card because Lightning Bolt exists.
It looks Selar1666 was really anticipating Lantern, Affinity, and/or Tron. So, I guess that Ingot chewer is spicy if you evoke that to take out a Wurmcoil or Bridge. The maindeck of Selar's is super fun! Played a few air games (against myself) and it just flies through the deck and manifests a super huge board t-3 to t-5. It seems this version is much more resilient to Blood Moon, Field of Ruin, and Spreading Seas. Going to jam 10 or so games with some friends tonight to see how this pans out.
I played a spicy 4 Manamorphose build today in an IQ. Ended up 3-3 due to some bad luck/matchups, but also more importantly some punts and getting punished by a couple deckbuilding choices. But Manamorphoses were great. I'm pretty sure 3-4 is right. It was clutch to hit delirium early several times, and fixed my mana several more. Including with a Blood Moon in play. The only time it was actively bad was vs. Thalia out of Humans - which he topdecked after I IoKed the first one.
I also had a Delay in the SB and it was pretty clutch vs. tron to counter a Relic to protect my Goyf (though I lost due to a poor choice of fetches in my manabase).
I played a spicy 4 Manamorphose build today in an IQ. Ended up 3-3 due to some bad luck/matchups, but also more importantly some punts and getting punished by a couple deckbuilding choices. But Manamorphoses were great. I'm pretty sure 3-4 is right. It was clutch to hit delirium early several times, and fixed my mana several more. Including with a Blood Moon in play. The only time it was actively bad was vs. Thalia out of Humans - which he topdecked after I IoKed the first one.
I also had a Delay in the SB and it was pretty clutch vs. tron to counter a Relic to protect my Goyf (though I lost due to a poor choice of fetches in my manabase).
Could this be the time to revisit Whispers of Emrakul?
So we can say there is a concensus that Manamorphose is great at helping with delirium (getting an instant into yard is one big argument against noninteractive matchups) and thinning the deck.
My next update will likely include the addition of the card into the deck then.
So we can say there is a concensus that Manamorphose is great at helping with delirium (getting an instant into yard is one big argument against noninteractive matchups) and thinning the deck.
My next update will likely include the addition of the card into the deck then.
I wouldn't call it a consensus, but I think it's good. To be honest we probably won't really know if it should be in the deck until we see a couple more opens / GPs.
So we can say there is a concensus that Manamorphose is great at helping with delirium (getting an instant into yard is one big argument against noninteractive matchups) and thinning the deck.
My next update will likely include the addition of the card into the deck then.
I wouldn't call it a consensus, but I think it's good. To be honest we probably won't really know if it should be in the deck until we see a couple more opens / GPs.
I’m willing to place a significant portion of my collection on a bet that the Pro Tour competitors are strong enough players to recognize a good thing. Even in other decks that played manamorphose, they absolutely loved the card — it’s a broken spell, if you can afford the deck space you should consider some
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I wouldn't take that bet! But I do think there's still some uncertainty. There may be something that we're missing. Or in the few games we've played, we may have just gotten lucky to mostly come across the upside scenarios. Certainty, or relative certainty, requires the hive mind to get on this.
Running Snapcaster to traverse for seems really sweet, but I cant really think of why I would not run white honestly. I feel we just cant conceed against Abzan and Control decks.
Running Snapcaster to traverse for seems really sweet, but I cant really think of why I would not run white honestly. I feel we just cant conceed against Abzan and Control decks.
I'been running 4c version with blue and tbh I don't miss Lingering Souls against control that much. Sure that card helps against control but I can do it most of the time with the combination of discard, counter spells and Lilianas. Midrange decks are more problematic from that aspect in my opinion as think that Lingering Souls is stronger against them but I've still been doing fine against them although Abzan is different story.
I like 4c version since it has better mana base and it's easier to build sb with it comparing to 5c one. Among both options I prefer the one with blue splash over white so far. White gives you Lingering Souls which is cool as the card helps you to beat control and midrange decks. As I said you can still win most of games against those decks without it though. With playing all 3 versions (4c with blue and 4c with white splash and 5 color) I like 4c version the most (so far) for the reasons above. Also when I played the version with white splash I was missing Stubborn Denial more than I'm missing Lingering Souls when I play blue splash but that's just my opinion though.
At first when I decided to try blue splash I was worried about the lack of Lingering Souls against fair decks and that this would be too big of an issue. As I said I've been working fine against fair decks most of the time so far. Not saying that Lingering Souls doesn't help but I think you can do without it, more so than without Stubborn Denial.
What does your list look like? Any Manamorphose and or Snapcasters in the deck?
Manamorphose has been good in tests, sometimes it's a do-nothing spell but the ability to put instant in the gy is nice, plus I played both Temur Battle Rage in the same turn thanks to the mana fixing last FNM, it was pretty fun. But I don't know about the second one over Liliana of the Veil #2.
The part i'm not sure about is in the sideboard, since I didn't play against Human, I don't know if both Radiant Flames and Kozilek's Return are needed, maybe one of those or the Fatal Push could be an other piece for control / grindy match-ups.
Vs. humans you want cheap spot removal. Radiant Flames is only medium, and Kozilek's Return is significantly worse. Thalia's Lietenant can get their dudes out of range, and Freebooter, Meddling Mage, and Thalia really punish expensive spells like these. Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt are the cards you want. Hostage Taker is also good if you have it in your board.
Running Snapcaster to traverse for seems really sweet, but I cant really think of why I would not run white honestly. I feel we just cant conceed against Abzan and Control decks.
Honestly, Lingering Souls isn't great against control. You don't want to play a prolonged, grindy game against them because they have to tools to dominate that sort of game. You want to get under them and kill them before they get established. Countermagic is decent, and so is Fulminator Mage, but because we can't counter Supreme Verdict nothing is really great. Thought I've been trying Golgari Charm to help with that lately. Souls fine sometimes, but it feels like it's playing right into their hands.
Not having Lingering Souls does hurt a lot vs. Jund, Abzan, and other Shadow decks. But you can play some nearly as good stuff without having to play white. Hostage Taker, Snapcaster Mage, Hazoret, and more Lilianas are the highlights. I'm also keen on bring Fulminator in against other Shadow decks.
I think you mean Lingering Souls is not great vs Control in our deck. Generally, if you play Abzan for example, Souls is amazing against Control. I agree though that Souls does shine alot less here since the nature of the deck is to kill the opponent fast. I would not call it bad still. Unless in the worst case (which is Verdict always) Souls almost certainly trades 2-for-1 or more.
Yeah I think if you play 4c with blue you just dont stand a chance against a good GBx pilot. Having something like the cards you mentioned is for sure mandatory.
To explain this further, the control decks have piles of card advantage. We have very little. Boarding in a card which generates card advantage just prolongs the game and lets their card advantage take over in most situations. Yes, they need specific cards to trade evenly with Souls. But they can throw away a couple cards there and still crush us. Plus they have lots of ways to pick off souls tokens for free without losing much value. Cryptic to nab a token while doing something else relevant. Electrolyze to get two. Maybe a Verdict if necessary. And they can just race the souls, since we often put ourselves at such a low life total, and, depending on the control deck, they pack a pile of burn spells and evasive manlands. Plus, many of the control decks have 4 Field of Ruin and potentially more mana denial elements, which makes relying on a splash off a single fetchable land very dicy, and makes playing the long game even dicier.
I think if you want to beat control, you need to get under them. Press the advantage generated by punching a hole in their hand with discard spells, and hope they don't draw verdict. And if you want to beat verdict, there's always stuff like Hazoret and Golgari Charm.
So what you're saying is that you're starting to come around the Bolt plan, eh?
Regarding Bolt: the undefeated decks of Day One at the GP seemed pretty strong vs Bolt. Not many decks weak to damage based removal, which means more often than not just a burn spell to the dome. Does that change anything?
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I plan to try it out tonight, so wish me luck!
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Beat Mono white tax's.
Still don't know how I feel.
I get sometimes we need to put an instant in the GY, but what about a stubborn detail going into that GY?
I changed the list a little, I cut the Ranger and Rampager, and added 1x Grim, I fit in 2x Tarfire, too.
I know one thing for sure, the single copy of Grim Flayer belongs in this deck.
Maybe this weekend's SCG will have an idea where these decks are going.
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How do we get an instant in the graveyard to enable delirium?
-I would rather jam Lightning Bolt.
However, if we just want Delirium then, I guess Tarfire... I just don't like the card because Lightning Bolt exists.
It looks Selar1666 was really anticipating Lantern, Affinity, and/or Tron. So, I guess that Ingot chewer is spicy if you evoke that to take out a Wurmcoil or Bridge. The maindeck of Selar's is super fun! Played a few air games (against myself) and it just flies through the deck and manifests a super huge board t-3 to t-5. It seems this version is much more resilient to Blood Moon, Field of Ruin, and Spreading Seas. Going to jam 10 or so games with some friends tonight to see how this pans out.
I also had a Delay in the SB and it was pretty clutch vs. tron to counter a Relic to protect my Goyf (though I lost due to a poor choice of fetches in my manabase).
Could this be the time to revisit Whispers of Emrakul?
My next update will likely include the addition of the card into the deck then.
Haha, no, I don't think so. It's really hard to enable and the payoff is not quite there.
I wouldn't call it a consensus, but I think it's good. To be honest we probably won't really know if it should be in the deck until we see a couple more opens / GPs.
I’m willing to place a significant portion of my collection on a bet that the Pro Tour competitors are strong enough players to recognize a good thing. Even in other decks that played manamorphose, they absolutely loved the card — it’s a broken spell, if you can afford the deck space you should consider some
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What does your list look like? Any Manamorphose and or Snapcasters in the deck?
Vs. humans you want cheap spot removal. Radiant Flames is only medium, and Kozilek's Return is significantly worse. Thalia's Lietenant can get their dudes out of range, and Freebooter, Meddling Mage, and Thalia really punish expensive spells like these. Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt are the cards you want. Hostage Taker is also good if you have it in your board.
Honestly, Lingering Souls isn't great against control. You don't want to play a prolonged, grindy game against them because they have to tools to dominate that sort of game. You want to get under them and kill them before they get established. Countermagic is decent, and so is Fulminator Mage, but because we can't counter Supreme Verdict nothing is really great. Thought I've been trying Golgari Charm to help with that lately. Souls fine sometimes, but it feels like it's playing right into their hands.
Not having Lingering Souls does hurt a lot vs. Jund, Abzan, and other Shadow decks. But you can play some nearly as good stuff without having to play white. Hostage Taker, Snapcaster Mage, Hazoret, and more Lilianas are the highlights. I'm also keen on bring Fulminator in against other Shadow decks.
Yeah I think if you play 4c with blue you just dont stand a chance against a good GBx pilot. Having something like the cards you mentioned is for sure mandatory.
Of course. I'm talking about whether to play it in this deck.
I think if you want to beat control, you need to get under them. Press the advantage generated by punching a hole in their hand with discard spells, and hope they don't draw verdict. And if you want to beat verdict, there's always stuff like Hazoret and Golgari Charm.
Regarding Bolt: the undefeated decks of Day One at the GP seemed pretty strong vs Bolt. Not many decks weak to damage based removal, which means more often than not just a burn spell to the dome. Does that change anything?
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