After additional testing, I think I'm closing in on the 75 I will be playing at Indy next weekend. The Bolts have been seriously amazing. I haven't missed the additional mainboard hard removal spells because instead of trying to control their board, I've just reached across the table and finished em off with bolts instead.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
Has anyone liked that Manamorphose list by Andrew Baeckstrom? I found the Ranger and Ghor Clan absolutely detrimental to have, I do wonder if the deck would feel smoother if it became a grim flayer or something
Also, how are you guys feeling with these lists cutting lingering souls?
I can't decide whether to go 5C, 4C with blue splash, or 4c with white splash.
I personally think, you should go for a 4c build as hard as you can. It just makes the manabase and the SB slots alot less restrictive.
If the meta is more grindy, I would go for white. If the meta has more combo/big mana in it, I would go for blue. Its more or less similar to a switching process between Abzan and Jund, if you know what I mean.
I personally never liked Ghor Clan at all. Even not in the orginal build. Its just not a TBR.
Ranger is a card I also did have not amazing experience with. Been liking the Hazoret loads more there.
I think the best way to decide which version you should play is to just make a comparison to the other archetype you're 'transforming' into. The core of the deck is really the same in all of them, its just the ~10 or so flex slots that change.
4c splash White turns into an Abzan deck.
4c splash Blue plays more like Grixis.
5c gets both at the cost of a sideboard slot and your whole sideboard is dedicated to just those two plans which can leave little room for other niche/hate cards.
So evaluate each of those and try to determine whether Grixis or Abzan would be better suited to your meta. Although I will say that if you don't have any sort of plan for the fair decks (Lingering Souls, a pile of Liliana's or Snap/Bolt in my case) then you're just going to get smashed. It could be reasonable to decide to fold to the fair decks (unlikely, but it depends upon your expected meta).
Mine plays like a legacy Delver deck. I think that's the path least explored so far because everyone has been so high on fatal push, which has pushed (har har) bolt to the wayside.
Personally, I think there are not enough matchups where Souls can shine to justify 4 sb-slots (including the land). I like them against control decks, but they will attack your mana base and they might be stranded in your hand. Souls are also good against Jund/Rock and in the mirror, but I don't think we are unfavoured against midrange (unless they play souls by themselves) and in the mirror Hostage Taker is a bomb.
I prefer Gerschenson's 4c list from the PT with Snap in the sb, which is amazing against fair and unfair matchups: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/923084#paper
I am currently considering Lavamancer as well in order to improve the humans matchup, how is he performing for you?
Any tips on how to side against UW control? My local meta has 2 UW control players and I feel this is the hardest matchup for me. Between the field of ruins, spreading seas and Supreme Veredicts I cant seem to pull ahead.
I usually try to land a threat/liliana as early as possible and pressure them fast. Enabling traverse is a bit complicated due to the low creature count they have, and getting an instant in the grave is a problem.
My sideboard plan generally goes like this:
OUT: 4 pushes, 2 temur battle rage, 1 inquisition, 1 blood crypt (I leave in dismember to deal with gideons, and 2 abrupt decays to deal with detention sphere, 3 mana gideon, search for azcanta, spreading seas, rest in peace)
I agree that playing 4c version is better than 5c one, most of the time at least. It makes your mana base better and easier way to build your sideboard. I'm more inclined to play 4c versions splashing blue as I love Stubborn Denial. I've played 5c, 4c with blue and 4c with white and I liked the 4c version splashing blue the most so far. Lingering Souls is good against midrange and control but Stubborn Denial is just too good to drop blue in my opinion. Stubborn Denial has won me more games than Lingering Souls which leads me to conclusion that playing blue is better than white unless you expect to play against grindy decks more often.
I agree on Ranger of Eos not being great. It has some use but he's not amazing and Hostage Taker and Hazoret are better. Hostage Taker sees especially nice since it's good against Lantern (you can deal with Bridge even if your opponent has Welding Jar in the play) and it's also useful against attrition based decks or other problematic cards such as Wurmcoil.
I also like Gerschenson's list (md). I'm just not sure about sb yet, this will certainly need a lot of work and testing to see what configuration fits the best, what I like and what not.
I started to think that Snapcaster Mage as a 1 of in sb actually wouldn't be that bad. I also like the idea of Grim Lavamancer to fight creature decks such as Humans or Affinity. I'm a bit worried about gy being too stressed with Traverse, Grim, Goyf and Snapcaster but it might work regardless.
I tested a dozen games Against Jeskai and another dozen against GW Company tonight with a 4c blue list, I’m a believer in 3 traverse 1 snap. Also 2 bolt MB, push hasn’t pulled much weight lately, and traverse for snap to bolt them is strong
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@RoboMemer on Discord
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
4-1 last tournament,
Lost against Tribal zoo, won against Burn, Scapeshift, Elves and Affinity.
Loving the deck. I was lucky i guess that i played against so many creature decks, but still. I think i could have won against the tribal zoo if i played more carefully.
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (12)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Sorcery (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
@kodieyost- I'll get you all the way to the bolt side eventually!
2 bolts is a hedge towards some strategies.
4 bolts and snaps make a solid game plan.
After additional testing, I think I'm closing in on the 75 I will be playing at Indy next weekend. The Bolts have been seriously amazing. I haven't missed the additional mainboard hard removal spells because instead of trying to control their board, I've just reached across the table and finished em off with bolts instead.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it; do you miss having Liliana of the Veil in if for nothing more than another card type for Tarmogoyf / Delirium? Seems you could sub 1 Lightning Bolt for a Tarfire to offset that while still enabling the bolt-snap-bolt outs you are going for. I used to run Delay in counter-cat type decks and always loved it. It works even better here, obviously. For all intents and purposes, it is Counterspell to shadow decks.
Turning on delirium is mostly an issue when you need a threat fast. Vs. aggro decks, combo decks, and big mana decks. In those matchups, LotV is mostly irrelevant for turning on delirium because you typically don't have a quick way to get it to the GY (except when you have Brutality).
Played a few matches with friends last night and we found that Immanuel's list is what we believe the closest to being optimal. I do think Spooly's list is baseline and that the list was tuned from there. From my testing last night, I am completely on board with dropping white after playing Traverse, Snap, TBR for the win in two matches that I had no business winning. These games had me "Dead on board" (Check out the podcast) and I either top decked the Traverse or the Snap. I was playing against Mardu Pizzy and Bant Coco so, I had to go the more controlling route of nailing the right time to shift into offense. In both of those games I had eventually discarded my TBR to Collective Brutality. The look on my friends face when I topped Traverse, Snap, TBR was just priceless.
So, yeah, I wanted to give credit to Immanuel for being to see through that weakness that we had in those matches. Do not underestimate the 1 Snap out of the board because the lines of play are fruitful and Traverse gives us 3 psuedo copies. What bold move... I love that Sideboard addition.
I don't think we know what the optimal list is at all. Both major teams on Traverse shadow had major innovations to bring to the table, and it's not clear how to combine them. Plus the PT metagame was particularly humans-centric, which is not necessarily true for any metagame you might be participating in. This changes the value of things like Grim Lavamancer, Hostage Taker, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, etc.
There is A LOT left to learn about this deck after the PT.
I haven't missed the Lilianas at all. (Which is really saying something, I f-in love that card, I fought against Spooly when he initially started cutting it)
Delirium hasn't been any more of an issue than it always has been, because the bolts give you another way to apply pressure. Extra pushes would be rotting in hand against the decks you struggle with delirium anyway (the combo, aggro, and big mana decks) and Liliana is okay in those matchups, but she probably isn't helping with delirium. Against the aggro deck Lili is pretty bad and the bolts are obviously great. Push is good too, but bolt is even better since now the ubiquity of push has made 3 mana x/3s more prevalent. (Seriously mantis rider and spell queller are obnoxious). So even if you don't have delirium the extra 1 mana removal spells against aggro can let you control the board pretty well until you get delirium on.
And yes, delay has been perfect in this deck. I forgot the card existed until I saw it at the PT.
@Ayiluss- Looking at decks on the whole first page of mtggoldfish, bolt is on par or better against all of them other than Eldrazitron (Thoughtknot). I'm not exaggerating. I know that bolt doesn't kill shadow, but playing 4 bolts and some snaps gives you a really good shot of just bolting them out of game anyway which is even better than pushing their shadow.
@qel- I'm not going to GP Toronto, but I will be at SCG Indy next weekend.
Funny, I think Manamorphose out of the other team's deck is the most important piece of innovation. And we already have a list that 5-0ed a league using that technology: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/929088#paper
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
2 Delay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Hostage Taker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Izzet Staticaster
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Death's Shadow
1x Grim Flayer
4x Street Wraith
Spells (29)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Stubborn Denial
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
2x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Watery Grave
1x Swamp
3x Collective Brutality
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Kozilek's Return
1x Temur Battle Rage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Hazoret, the Fervent
1x Stubborn Denial
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Fatal Push
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
And
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Death's Shadow
2x Grim Flayer
4x Street Wraith
Spells (29)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Tarfire
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
1x Godless Shrine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Lingering Souls
1x Hazoret, the Fervent
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Kozilek's Return
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Collective Brutality
1x Temur Battle Rage
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
Has anyone liked that Manamorphose list by Andrew Baeckstrom? I found the Ranger and Ghor Clan absolutely detrimental to have, I do wonder if the deck would feel smoother if it became a grim flayer or something
Also, how are you guys feeling with these lists cutting lingering souls?
I can't decide whether to go 5C, 4C with blue splash, or 4c with white splash.
If the meta is more grindy, I would go for white. If the meta has more combo/big mana in it, I would go for blue. Its more or less similar to a switching process between Abzan and Jund, if you know what I mean.
I personally never liked Ghor Clan at all. Even not in the orginal build. Its just not a TBR.
Ranger is a card I also did have not amazing experience with. Been liking the Hazoret loads more there.
4c splash White turns into an Abzan deck.
4c splash Blue plays more like Grixis.
5c gets both at the cost of a sideboard slot and your whole sideboard is dedicated to just those two plans which can leave little room for other niche/hate cards.
So evaluate each of those and try to determine whether Grixis or Abzan would be better suited to your meta. Although I will say that if you don't have any sort of plan for the fair decks (Lingering Souls, a pile of Liliana's or Snap/Bolt in my case) then you're just going to get smashed. It could be reasonable to decide to fold to the fair decks (unlikely, but it depends upon your expected meta).
Mine plays like a legacy Delver deck. I think that's the path least explored so far because everyone has been so high on fatal push, which has pushed (har har) bolt to the wayside.
I prefer Gerschenson's 4c list from the PT with Snap in the sb, which is amazing against fair and unfair matchups:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/923084#paper
I am currently considering Lavamancer as well in order to improve the humans matchup, how is he performing for you?
Dropped haz down with Goyf and it was game. Hazoret has just felt so much better than ranger.
I think I should consider a snapcaster mage now that you're talking about it.
I'm playing haz instead of hostage taker. I have 2x blood crypt because my board is leaning on red a lot and I cannot afford just 1 red source.
Gershens list is basically what i based my first list off of, mainly tinkered with the sideboard since I agreed with his maindeck choices.
After watching Reid, I just go all in against jeskai. Our deck cannot afford to play the long game and play around wraths.
I have 3x cb for a lot of decks, I like it against control decks too.
I just don't think souls can be justified for 4 slots.
I usually try to land a threat/liliana as early as possible and pressure them fast. Enabling traverse is a bit complicated due to the low creature count they have, and getting an instant in the grave is a problem.
My sideboard plan generally goes like this:
OUT: 4 pushes, 2 temur battle rage, 1 inquisition, 1 blood crypt (I leave in dismember to deal with gideons, and 2 abrupt decays to deal with detention sphere, 3 mana gideon, search for azcanta, spreading seas, rest in peace)
IN: 1 Godless shrine, 3 lingering souls, 1 Ranger of eos, 1 stubborn denial, 2 disdainful stroke
To those who have tested Delay, how has it fared compared to disdainful stroke? What is the reasoning to have one over the other?
I tested a dozen games Against Jeskai and another dozen against GW Company tonight with a 4c blue list, I’m a believer in 3 traverse 1 snap. Also 2 bolt MB, push hasn’t pulled much weight lately, and traverse for snap to bolt them is strong
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Lost against Tribal zoo, won against Burn, Scapeshift, Elves and Affinity.
Loving the deck. I was lucky i guess that i played against so many creature decks, but still. I think i could have won against the tribal zoo if i played more carefully.
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (12)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Sorcery (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (12)
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Tarfire
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
Artifact (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
Land (18)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Forest
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Fatal Push 3 Fulminator Mage 2 Collective Brutallity 2 Surgical Extraction 1 Liliana the Last Hope 2 Ancient Grudge 3 Lingering Souls 1 Hazoret the Fervent
That 'article' was pretty much directly copy-pasted from Gerschenson's original:
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/immanuel-gerschenson/traversing-at-pro-tour-rix
Weak.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
2 bolts is a hedge towards some strategies.
4 bolts and snaps make a solid game plan.
Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it; do you miss having Liliana of the Veil in if for nothing more than another card type for Tarmogoyf / Delirium? Seems you could sub 1 Lightning Bolt for a Tarfire to offset that while still enabling the bolt-snap-bolt outs you are going for. I used to run Delay in counter-cat type decks and always loved it. It works even better here, obviously. For all intents and purposes, it is Counterspell to shadow decks.
So, yeah, I wanted to give credit to Immanuel for being to see through that weakness that we had in those matches. Do not underestimate the 1 Snap out of the board because the lines of play are fruitful and Traverse gives us 3 psuedo copies. What bold move... I love that Sideboard addition.
There is A LOT left to learn about this deck after the PT.
Delirium hasn't been any more of an issue than it always has been, because the bolts give you another way to apply pressure. Extra pushes would be rotting in hand against the decks you struggle with delirium anyway (the combo, aggro, and big mana decks) and Liliana is okay in those matchups, but she probably isn't helping with delirium. Against the aggro deck Lili is pretty bad and the bolts are obviously great. Push is good too, but bolt is even better since now the ubiquity of push has made 3 mana x/3s more prevalent. (Seriously mantis rider and spell queller are obnoxious). So even if you don't have delirium the extra 1 mana removal spells against aggro can let you control the board pretty well until you get delirium on.
And yes, delay has been perfect in this deck. I forgot the card existed until I saw it at the PT.
@Ayiluss- Looking at decks on the whole first page of mtggoldfish, bolt is on par or better against all of them other than Eldrazitron (Thoughtknot). I'm not exaggerating. I know that bolt doesn't kill shadow, but playing 4 bolts and some snaps gives you a really good shot of just bolting them out of game anyway which is even better than pushing their shadow.
@qel- I'm not going to GP Toronto, but I will be at SCG Indy next weekend.