I'm surprised that you went with Liliana, the Last Hope in the Lingering Souls mainboard decklist. You mention that you chose this because you can hit souls off of Last Hope's -2. But Liliana of the Veil synergizes with souls just as well considering you can discard them to her +1. You're also sacrificing some percentage points against the combo decks when you swap to white instead of blue. The Last Hope loses you even more percentage points there as well.
I guess you could also be just be going all in against the go wide decks with the Last Hope over Veil?
(this is probably an unnecessary amount of conjecture about just a 1-of in a theoretical list haha)
I'm surprised that you went with Liliana, the Last Hope in the Lingering Souls mainboard decklist. You mention that you chose this because you can hit souls off of Last Hope's -2. But Liliana of the Veil synergizes with souls just as well considering you can discard them to her +1. You're also sacrificing some percentage points against the combo decks when you swap to white instead of blue. The Last Hope loses you even more percentage points there as well.
I guess you could also be just be going all in against the go wide decks with the Last Hope over Veil?
(this is probably an unnecessary amount of conjecture about just a 1-of in a theoretical list haha)
That list is intentionally sacrificing percentage points against combo in order to beat other things, but the Last Hope is less of an intentional choice and more of an experiment.
Last Hope is also very relevant in breaking the Lingering Souls mirror, which you would be expecting if the meta has slowed to the point where you want the Souls in the main.
I played at my LGS last night. It was a relatively small event (16 players) but I did pretty well and had a good time. I haven't been able to play much lately, so it was nice to be back.
I played something similar to what Spooly suggested in his article, and I went with the maindeck lingering souls. I had no idea what the meta was like there, so I just picked a 75 and went with it. This is what I brought with me:
I beat counter company in round 1. He has no company nor chord, and just a couple removal spells on his combo pieces gives me time to eventually battlerage an 11/11 shadow in g1. Staticaster basically locked him out in g2.
Round 2 I lost to Titanshift. G1 I had 2 6/6 shadows and he was able to valakut trigger 1 and trade prime time for the other then I lost to a follow up scapeshift. G2 I went to 6 and kept 1 land, 2 street wraith, 2 discard spells, and a goyf. Then he said "I have pregame effects" and I was sad as he put a leyline into play and I didn't see a second land til turn 4.
Round 3 I played a friend of mine on GW Company (with Ghost Quarters and Runamap Excavator). Uh oh. G1 I played 3 discard spells that prevented him from doing anything relevant as I followed up with Souls and a Shadow. Game 2 I fumbled around with no threat on board for a while. He played patiently not allowing me to get shadows online until I was basically dead. Game 3 went similarly to g1, I discarded his whole hand then followed up with quick shadow. He ghost quartered me once in the 3 games.
Round 4 I played the saltiest player ever. I was warned that he's a regular there and is usually on death and taxes, so I was prepared to lose. I was excited when I thoughtseized him turn 1 and saw 1 land, 3 serum visions, a sleight of hand, and a lotus bloom. Took the lotus and killed him with turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf while he fumbled with his cantrips. G2 he opened with turn 0 leyline. I inquisition, target myself making him exclaim, "that's target opponent!" He's wrong, so I revealed my hand to him took my other inquisition so I can just get sorcery in the yard for goyf. He combos me on turn 4 which I have the disdainful stroke for, but he also has pact of negation. G3 he keeps 1 land, no leyline, but a couple cantrips and a primatic. I play turn 1 thoughtseize, 2 thoughtseizes turn 2, turn 3 liliana which he pacts (And angels graces next turn) followed by turn 4 brutality and 6/7 goyf. I finish him off with a Battlerage shortly after as he grumbling about how different the game would have been if he "just had a stupid leyline."
Oh well. I didn't let him bother me. I had a fun time regardless.
I'm not sure I would play the Lingering Souls in the main at that LGS again, and I might even try out just the four color build with a Bunch of Liliana's as my grind plan. With the new Planewalker rule, I think that just playing Last Hopes and maybe even a 4th Veil in the side could be a reasonable way to play the long game without having to play the 19th land in the deck.
I'm hearing lots of reports that Hazoret works really well as the grind plan. Lots of decks just can never deal with it. So if you want to cut the 5th color to free up that SB slot, it looks really attractive. Though you can probably only play a max of two, so supplementing with additional walkers is prudent. Especially Last Hope to fight those dang spirit tokens out of the Lingering Souls decks.
I'm hearing lots of reports that Hazoret works really well as the grind plan. Lots of decks just can never deal with it. So if you want to cut the 5th color to free up that SB slot, it looks really attractive. Though you can probably only play a max of two, so supplementing with additional walkers is prudent. Especially Last Hope to fight those dang spirit tokens out of the Lingering Souls decks.
How does it shore up our bad matchups though? Control and Abzan will just path it and Humans can chump forever.
@whocansay - Saying that Control and Abzan will be able to "just path it" isn't entirely fair considering we have a lot of ways to take their removal out of their hand (or have stubborn as your last card against control) and all of our threats need a removal spell, and they have to have specifically path for her. Shes also really hard for Grixis Shadow to deal with as well.
Hazoret isn't for the humans matchup.
@spooly- yeah, I think this is what I will go with for now:
The maindeck tarfire is a hedge against the little creature decks, and I was having some trouble with delirium, so I wanted another easy/cheap enabler. The two Mistys over the last 2 Polluted Deltas are so I have a couple extra ways to get Stomping Ground so its easier to get the double red for Pia.
@whocansay - Saying that Control and Abzan will be able to "just path it" isn't entirely fair considering we have a lot of ways to take their removal out of their hand (or have stubborn as your last card against control) and all of our threats need a removal spell, and they have to have specifically path for her. Shes also really hard for Grixis Shadow to deal with as well.
Hazoret isn't for the humans matchup.
Ok, well then they'll chump her with Souls, for which we don't have any efficient ways of interacting. I'm not worried at all about Grixis Shadow, seeing as we run Souls as well.
I'm hearing lots of reports that Hazoret works really well as the grind plan. Lots of decks just can never deal with it. So if you want to cut the 5th color to free up that SB slot, it looks really attractive. Though you can probably only play a max of two, so supplementing with additional walkers is prudent. Especially Last Hope to fight those dang spirit tokens out of the Lingering Souls decks.
How does it shore up our bad matchups though? Control and Abzan will just path it and Humans can chump forever.
Well if Hazoret replaces Souls, it frees up a SB slot that was dedicated to a land that you can put towards beating any deck you want.
But it's not about shoring up a bad matchup anyway. It's about maximizing your win percentage against the expected metagame. Sometimes to do that you have to give up on a matchup.
And even so, I tried to take the loss of Lingering Souls seriously. I think that with the tools I put in the sideboard, I think even the BGx and UWx matchups will be okay.
Fair enough, if it works it works. The midrange and UW control matchups are the only ones I consistently lose with this deck though, and I can't help but feel like there has to be a way to improve them. Well, maybe not Abzan, that's just miserable.
I'm *thinking* that the 4th liliana of the veil and the last hopes (especially if you recur pia) will be just as good as lingering souls against the control decks.
I don't mind losing to abzan. The games are fun and interactive. And if someone is choosing to play abzan over our deck they are sacrificing so much against the rest of the field. So eh, they can have the win against me.
Hey all,
i got one quick question - Why do we SB out inquisition against eldrazi tron? I understand its kinda bad since it doesnt catch the big threats, but isn't chalice alone that devastating that we should keep inquisitions in?
Hey all,
i got one quick question - Why do we SB out inquisition against eldrazi tron? I understand its kinda bad since it doesnt catch the big threats, but isn't chalice alone that devastating that we should keep inquisitions in?
But also, we aren't as susceptible to Chalice as Grixis is. Goyf costs 2 and doesn't require setup, Terminate costs 2, Disdainful Stroke costs 2, Bauble (to dig) costs 0, we get to play Abrupt Decay and postboard Ancient Grudge, etc. That said, feel free to experiment with keeping some in.
Hazoret doesn't necessarily slam dunk those matchups, but she is just an all around solid threat. She resistant to removal, she lets us attack on an angle that we don't normally get (hasty), she's decent in size, and she can allow us to turn dead cards into reach. That's why I think she is maindeckable.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but I think that if you asked a UWx control player which card they are more scared of, Liliana of the Veil or Souls, I think Veil is scarier for them, for sure. The last hopes are also quite good against them, either threatening an ultimate or recurring our threats.
I think last hope is also how you are going to beat opposing lingering souls decks.
Give it a shot! I'm not saying you will now smash them, but I think this configuration has some legs.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but I think that if you asked a UWx control player which card they are more scared of, Liliana of the Veil or Souls, I think Veil is scarier for them, for sure.
Agreed, but it's also easier to deal with for them. Detention Sphere, counterspells and Cryptic Command bounce-effects can get rid of her for good. Souls require a 2-for-1 answer like Sphere or Verdict in addition to grave hate to keep them from coming back. Either way, Veil and Souls are no doubt our best tools against pure UW control decks.
Ah... I'm not sure about it though. LoTV is definitely fairly better than Lingering Souls against control but against midrange decks Lingering Souls is still very good, worse than LoTV though.
Lingering Souls is better than Liliana against basically all control and midrange matchups IMO. Midrange especially. Souls will win the game on its own vs Grixis Shadow and Jund, and is one of the only cards that allows you to reasonably fight Abzan's own Lingering Souls. And if you draw Souls and they don't, you're in a very good spot. (You'll still lose to their SB Gideons though). Against control, it often forces them to have one of a very narrow set of cards that they play, or to 3-1 themselves dealing with the tokens. LotV is great and is often a 2-1 in all of these matchups, but she typically can't just win the game on her own. They have Decays, or burn spells, or random bodies (Lingering Souls, Snapcaster, manlands) to get her off the board. She's still great, but not Souls level.
The only exception to this I think is vs. UW control specifically, because they have so many wraths and so many fewer ways to attack planeswalkers.
I guess you could also be just be going all in against the go wide decks with the Last Hope over Veil?
(this is probably an unnecessary amount of conjecture about just a 1-of in a theoretical list haha)
That list is intentionally sacrificing percentage points against combo in order to beat other things, but the Last Hope is less of an intentional choice and more of an experiment.
I played something similar to what Spooly suggested in his article, and I went with the maindeck lingering souls. I had no idea what the meta was like there, so I just picked a 75 and went with it. This is what I brought with me:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lingering Souls
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lingering Souls
1 Watery Grave
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
I beat counter company in round 1. He has no company nor chord, and just a couple removal spells on his combo pieces gives me time to eventually battlerage an 11/11 shadow in g1. Staticaster basically locked him out in g2.
Round 2 I lost to Titanshift. G1 I had 2 6/6 shadows and he was able to valakut trigger 1 and trade prime time for the other then I lost to a follow up scapeshift. G2 I went to 6 and kept 1 land, 2 street wraith, 2 discard spells, and a goyf. Then he said "I have pregame effects" and I was sad as he put a leyline into play and I didn't see a second land til turn 4.
Round 3 I played a friend of mine on GW Company (with Ghost Quarters and Runamap Excavator). Uh oh. G1 I played 3 discard spells that prevented him from doing anything relevant as I followed up with Souls and a Shadow. Game 2 I fumbled around with no threat on board for a while. He played patiently not allowing me to get shadows online until I was basically dead. Game 3 went similarly to g1, I discarded his whole hand then followed up with quick shadow. He ghost quartered me once in the 3 games.
Round 4 I played the saltiest player ever. I was warned that he's a regular there and is usually on death and taxes, so I was prepared to lose. I was excited when I thoughtseized him turn 1 and saw 1 land, 3 serum visions, a sleight of hand, and a lotus bloom. Took the lotus and killed him with turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf while he fumbled with his cantrips. G2 he opened with turn 0 leyline. I inquisition, target myself making him exclaim, "that's target opponent!" He's wrong, so I revealed my hand to him took my other inquisition so I can just get sorcery in the yard for goyf. He combos me on turn 4 which I have the disdainful stroke for, but he also has pact of negation. G3 he keeps 1 land, no leyline, but a couple cantrips and a primatic. I play turn 1 thoughtseize, 2 thoughtseizes turn 2, turn 3 liliana which he pacts (And angels graces next turn) followed by turn 4 brutality and 6/7 goyf. I finish him off with a Battlerage shortly after as he grumbling about how different the game would have been if he "just had a stupid leyline."
Oh well. I didn't let him bother me. I had a fun time regardless.
I'm not sure I would play the Lingering Souls in the main at that LGS again, and I might even try out just the four color build with a Bunch of Liliana's as my grind plan. With the new Planewalker rule, I think that just playing Last Hopes and maybe even a 4th Veil in the side could be a reasonable way to play the long game without having to play the 19th land in the deck.
How does it shore up our bad matchups though? Control and Abzan will just path it and Humans can chump forever.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Hazoret isn't for the humans matchup.
@spooly- yeah, I think this is what I will go with for now:
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Tarfire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
The maindeck tarfire is a hedge against the little creature decks, and I was having some trouble with delirium, so I wanted another easy/cheap enabler. The two Mistys over the last 2 Polluted Deltas are so I have a couple extra ways to get Stomping Ground so its easier to get the double red for Pia.
Ok, well then they'll chump her with Souls, for which we don't have any efficient ways of interacting. I'm not worried at all about Grixis Shadow, seeing as we run Souls as well.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Well if Hazoret replaces Souls, it frees up a SB slot that was dedicated to a land that you can put towards beating any deck you want.
But it's not about shoring up a bad matchup anyway. It's about maximizing your win percentage against the expected metagame. Sometimes to do that you have to give up on a matchup.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I don't mind losing to abzan. The games are fun and interactive. And if someone is choosing to play abzan over our deck they are sacrificing so much against the rest of the field. So eh, they can have the win against me.
i got one quick question - Why do we SB out inquisition against eldrazi tron? I understand its kinda bad since it doesnt catch the big threats, but isn't chalice alone that devastating that we should keep inquisitions in?
Thanks
The real answer: because Magnus Lantto said to do it in this article: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/magnus-lantto/the-ultimate-deaths-shadow-matchup-guide
But also, we aren't as susceptible to Chalice as Grixis is. Goyf costs 2 and doesn't require setup, Terminate costs 2, Disdainful Stroke costs 2, Bauble (to dig) costs 0, we get to play Abrupt Decay and postboard Ancient Grudge, etc. That said, feel free to experiment with keeping some in.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but I think that if you asked a UWx control player which card they are more scared of, Liliana of the Veil or Souls, I think Veil is scarier for them, for sure. The last hopes are also quite good against them, either threatening an ultimate or recurring our threats.
I think last hope is also how you are going to beat opposing lingering souls decks.
Give it a shot! I'm not saying you will now smash them, but I think this configuration has some legs.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Agreed, but it's also easier to deal with for them. Detention Sphere, counterspells and Cryptic Command bounce-effects can get rid of her for good. Souls require a 2-for-1 answer like Sphere or Verdict in addition to grave hate to keep them from coming back. Either way, Veil and Souls are no doubt our best tools against pure UW control decks.
Uhh.. Huh?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Lingering Souls is better than Liliana against basically all control and midrange matchups IMO. Midrange especially. Souls will win the game on its own vs Grixis Shadow and Jund, and is one of the only cards that allows you to reasonably fight Abzan's own Lingering Souls. And if you draw Souls and they don't, you're in a very good spot. (You'll still lose to their SB Gideons though). Against control, it often forces them to have one of a very narrow set of cards that they play, or to 3-1 themselves dealing with the tokens. LotV is great and is often a 2-1 in all of these matchups, but she typically can't just win the game on her own. They have Decays, or burn spells, or random bodies (Lingering Souls, Snapcaster, manlands) to get her off the board. She's still great, but not Souls level.
The only exception to this I think is vs. UW control specifically, because they have so many wraths and so many fewer ways to attack planeswalkers.
I guess it would probably just be easier to be straightforward and ask what 75 you're liking right now