Well, there's no also enough proof that Hazoret is just a win more card and you said that it was mediocre.
And just losing few games with the build will not conclude that the card was bad. Better test it with more games. Do not base it on those games because that's not enough proof.
It is not a win more card. Hazoret breaks a stalled board when slammed. Great against Grixis and Eldrazi decks. If you are losing on board with Smashers then slammed a Hazoret, would you feel better than slamming a different 4-drop?
On the Blood Moon discussion, that is your preference. I personally split 2 Blood Moons and 2 Fulminator Mages on my SB for variance. I know how to play around with my own Blood Moon. And that does not screw my mana base a lot. I cripple a little, but my Eldrazi/Tron opponent will suffer a lot. Abzan also, if they can't play around against it.
Well, there's no also enough proof that Hazoret is just a win more card and you said that it was mediocre.
And just losing few games with the build will not conclude that the card was bad. Better test it with more games. Do not base it on those games because that's not enough proof.
It is not a win more card. Hazoret breaks a stalled board when slammed. Great against Grixis and Eldrazi decks. If you are losing on board with Smashers then slammed a Hazoret, would you feel better than slamming a different 4-drop?
On the Blood Moon discussion, that is your preference. I personally split 2 Blood Moons and 2 Fulminator Mages on my SB for variance. I know how to play around with my own Blood Moon. And that does not screw my mana base a lot. I cripple a little, but my Eldrazi/Tron opponent will suffer a lot. Abzan also, if they can't play around against it.
You are correct... 6 pages of Hazoret the Fervent being a win-more card is not proof. Why care about statistics anyways?
There is not a single example in the last 6 pages of Hazoret breaking a stalled board state or winning a game from behind. Not one.
I keep asking for such an example... and I keep getting criticized for that question.
Also, if you are facing down a board of smashers that you have not dealt with... that can only mean two things. Either you have drawn all lands OR you have dead cards in hand (Fatal Pushes, Ancient Grudges with no targets, etc.) If you are drawing only lands or only dead cards... very unlikely that you'd actually be able to turn on Hazorate. So yes... in that case I would prefer a card like Huntsmaster to buy me extra turns to find a damnation. Because at that point Damnation is the only way you are winning that game.
EDIT: That being said... if you want a "closer" there is no better card than Hazoret the Fervent.
I am not blathering on. I am simply responding to someone who was responding to my argument. Would never have brought it up again if someone didn't directly reference my argument. Additionally - the 6 pages I reference to are NOT my own comments, but people posting specific examples of how the God was good. In every case (that I read) they were already ahead. Hence my comment.
Also - can we not keep this topic constructive? Your post literally has nothing to do with either keeping things on topic or Jund.
It serves zero purpose.
Hazorate is a great closer if you are already ahead... but based on my own play testing (and other testimonies here) it doesn't do alot if you are behind.
Technically it is. Yes the sample size is not large enough to actually come to a 100% conclusion (hence why I keep asking for other examples)
but it IS statistics and actual game play.
Statistics are numbers. Game results ARE numbers. If 90% of the games where hazorate is good you're already ahead... there is a good chance it's a card that is only good when you are ahead.
Really? Against what decks? How much testing have you done? Can you break it down against different archetypes?
90% (another number you've pulled from air it seems) of a crappy sample size is a good way to spread misinformation. I'm just asking you to prove your own statements or at least provide more than personal sentiment. IIRC, you personally tried it for one night?
Btw, it's not just you. I am skeptical of a lot that's been put on this particular subforum for about the last ten pages. There's a boat load of theorycrafting and personal sentiment.
Really? Against what decks? How much testing have you done? Can you break it down against different archetypes?
90% (another number you've pulled from air it seems) of a crappy sample size is a good way to spread misinformation. I'm just asking you to prove your own statements or at least provide more than personal sentiment. IIRC, you personally tried it for one night?
Btw, it's not just you. I am skeptical of a lot that's been put on this particular subforum for about the last ten pages. There's a boat load of theorycrafting and personal sentiment.
FYI: the 90% number was theoretical and arbitrary (not actual). I wasn't saying that 90% of the games WHERE that way.
So far that appears to be the case... but thats only out of a couple dozen games (which is not enough).
My apologizes if my statement was confusing.
I personally have about a dozen games on free programs testing against myself (plus the posts here).
To play devil's advocate (Against myself) maybe we do need a win more card?
Arguably our worst matchups (tron, Eldrazi Tron) only get worse the longer the game goes on.... maybe we need a win-more card to close out the game quickly.
i have not tested hazoret yet but she she might be what the deck needs, i dont think its win more because the linear decks are so consistent and redundant that you cant control them with good generic answers, you can only buy time.
Personally, I tend to like Chandra, Torch of Defiance in midrange mirrors or against control. I'm not as big a fan as most others are. That said, it's seemingly a fine choice to generate card advantage or pressure via her ultimate, which is usually game-ending.
As far as Grove of the Burnwillows against Death's Shadow, that's getting a little too cute. Midrange decks usually have a pretty good game against Death's Shadow as-is. My only suggestion is to add at least 1 more Fatal Push in the sideboard or main deck somewhere. It's particularly good against Death's Shadow.
Also, you have to be careful with activating Hazoret against Death's Shadow. The first person to mess up the combat math usually loses.
Plus you often leave in thought-seizes against Tron as well.
You mean "always"
Concerning Hazoret, I am generally a bit torn apart whether I like it or not. I didn't play it myself yet so I can't tell anything right now, but just by thinking about it, Hazoret seems really amazing in topdeck mode, but veery bad in a situation where you need a big fatty on board but you happen to have extra cards in hand. Sometimes we have to play with clunky hands like these and here Hazoret does seem like a 4 mana do nothin card (if you cast him and have extra cards in hand) and I generally don't like such cards. Usually such cards are devastating topdecks, but not with Hazoret at the very least, which is a positive aspect. Maybe running him in a more cheaper manacurve is the best way, but I am not sure whether I like that or not. There is not much I want to cut from the 3 cmc range, I like the Lilis and KCommands, so Idk if it would change much.
On Chandra: Been there, tested her, was very unexcited. I think she is only good against midrange and control, and out of these two I probably only want her against control, because we have enough tools to win grindy games (and she doesn't help vs. Lingering Souls in any way, which is a huge factor for me).
It never felt great minusing 3 in order to deal 4 dmg to a creature, which does not kill anything relevant atm (also sadly looking at you bolt). The ultimate is gg, but I don't rate planeswalkers primarily after their ultimate. Her both +1 abilities are ok, but the CA ability is the only intriguing for me. I rarely need extra red (the least important colour) mana, especially after bolt disappeared.
I tested Chandra, Torch of Defiance and she's really cool. Harder to kill than any other 4drop creature we tend to use and the CA is always welcome. All I wanted to share is that I've actually used the +1 RR of Chandra a lot when I had to animate Raging Ravine while keeping mana up for a spot removal on opponent's turn rather than tapping out in my turn.
Also keep in mind that her -3 ability kills bodies such as Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Thought-Knot Seer, Restoration Angel which bolt and decay cannot. I'm a fan of her in the 4drop slot maybe alongside Huntmaster if your list can fit both
Activating Ravine is pretty much the only scenario where I liked her mana ramping as well, but for the rest it was pretty mediocre in my experience.
Kalitas and Resto are both creatures not played very often nowadays, killing TKS is great, but its just one creature. I am more concerned that her -3 won't kill a DS, Goyf, Titan or Smasher. And if you look at the rest of the most played creatures right now, does -3ing Chandra feel great on Lingering Souls Token, Llanovar Elves, Ornithopter/Memnite, Prized Amalgam, Narcomoeba, Bloodghast, Kitchen Finks? I highly doubt it TBH.
In my experience, always when I needed to -3 her in order to kill a creature, she just died the next turn through attacks. And at this point I was questioning if I want to play a 4 mana deal 4 dmg card in my deck (which it more or less was in this scenario). For me, the answer was just no.
I am big time lurker (sounded less creepy in my head) here in the Jund forum. A current dining room table scrub with a Cube and a dream. That dream was to start playing Magic outside of my house. Never been a huge Standard fan and looked to a format with no rotation without the expense of dual lands, so here I am. The deck choice was never an option, I have always loved Jund and whether it was the best or the worst deck, I was building it. I'll be taking it to a local shop in the next few weeks and I already know the answer to this question is going to be very meta dependant, but what is everyone thoughts on the most vanilla Jund build I can take to the first event before I tweak it to the local meta. Vanilla perhaps isnt the best term and maybe there isnt even a good answer to this. I saw this on Goldfish today and it looked, interesting. Sideboard was pretty ecletic but not unusual. I have been following the chatter on Hazoret and Glorybringer and decided to test one of each or atleast try to fit them. The discussions, overviews and primers have been very helpful for a new player such a myself. You have added another midrange monster to the fold.
(Example from Goldfish)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Chandra, Pyromaster is usually only a consideration for the main deck when you expect a lot of 1-toughness creatures (tokens usually). Otherwise, she doesn't really do much to challenge for board control. Her +0 ability does provide a form of card advantage, but it's almost the same a Outpost Siege. It's more commonplace these days to see Chandra, Torch of Defiance in that slot instead. The card advantage she provides is pretty decent against midrange and control decks and it leads to a very threatening ultimate ability. Other than that, the list looks pretty close to a "stock" list. Do you have any idea of what people like to play in your area? I know you've been killing it on the kitchen table, but I assume you might have at least heard what's going on around you?
I am big time lurker (sounded less creepy in my head) here in the Jund forum. A current dining room table scrub with a Cube and a dream. That dream was to start playing Magic outside of my house. Never been a huge Standard fan and looked to a format with no rotation without the expense of dual lands, so here I am. The deck choice was never an option, I have always loved Jund and whether it was the best or the worst deck, I was building it. I'll be taking it to a local shop in the next few weeks and I already know the answer to this question is going to be very meta dependant, but what is everyone thoughts on the most vanilla Jund build I can take to the first event before I tweak it to the local meta. Vanilla perhaps isnt the best term and maybe there isnt even a good answer to this. I saw this on Goldfish today and it looked, interesting. Sideboard was pretty ecletic but not unusual. I have been following the chatter on Hazoret and Glorybringer and decided to test one of each or atleast try to fit them. The discussions, overviews and primers have been very helpful for a new player such a myself. You have added another midrange monster to the fold.
Personally, I cringe seeing only one Abrupt Decay. I like three, but two is currently more common. A Maelstrom Pulse needs to somewhere; I like one main and one side but that might not be best for a blind meta.
Six discard is almost dogma, but seven probably isn't the worst idea in the world.
Main-deck Fulminator Mage is somewhat unusual but not unheard of. I don't think one would call it "vanilla", rather a meta-game specific call.
Someone else has already commented on the Chandras; Chandra, Torch of Defiance is more common these days, but again, it's probably not "vanilla" but a little spice.
Apologies, I probably should have posted what I have sleeved up currently and I also didnt realise that was a Chandra Pyro, weird. 100% agree it will be a meta call and I have no take on what it is, I just want to bring along a fairly standard build and go from there, except I do have a Hazoret and Glorybringer in but not entirely happy with only 2 Scavenging Ooze mainboard. Thoughts, ideas, your expertise, all greatly appreciated. I am here to learn.
I would play Nihil Spellbomb instead of Cage first, because Spellbomb ist the most "general" GY hate we have and you don't know if there will be many coco decks yet. I think, if you want to run 4 Ravines, then cut the Filter land and play Stomping Ground in your case. Do not cut Stomping Ground. And I assume your Fetid Heath should be Twilight Mire there.
I like your list other than that, jam a couple games and see how your meta looks like.
The Jund Master's latest list. Nice to see Reid pilot Jund again.
Yes indeed! Lets hope he recorded his tournament, would be interesting to hear about some card choises.
Why 2 x Chandra, when based on his sideboard he was expecting lots of affinity?
Why 2 x Leyline of the Void? Against what matchup are you willing to mulligan hard to find one of those anyways?
Zero board sweepers feels also risky to me, but I guess he was planning to stop Collected Company with Cages.
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And just losing few games with the build will not conclude that the card was bad. Better test it with more games. Do not base it on those games because that's not enough proof.
It is not a win more card. Hazoret breaks a stalled board when slammed. Great against Grixis and Eldrazi decks. If you are losing on board with Smashers then slammed a Hazoret, would you feel better than slamming a different 4-drop?
On the Blood Moon discussion, that is your preference. I personally split 2 Blood Moons and 2 Fulminator Mages on my SB for variance. I know how to play around with my own Blood Moon. And that does not screw my mana base a lot. I cripple a little, but my Eldrazi/Tron opponent will suffer a lot. Abzan also, if they can't play around against it.
You are correct... 6 pages of Hazoret the Fervent being a win-more card is not proof. Why care about statistics anyways?
There is not a single example in the last 6 pages of Hazoret breaking a stalled board state or winning a game from behind. Not one.
I keep asking for such an example... and I keep getting criticized for that question.
Also, if you are facing down a board of smashers that you have not dealt with... that can only mean two things. Either you have drawn all lands OR you have dead cards in hand (Fatal Pushes, Ancient Grudges with no targets, etc.) If you are drawing only lands or only dead cards... very unlikely that you'd actually be able to turn on Hazorate. So yes... in that case I would prefer a card like Huntsmaster to buy me extra turns to find a damnation. Because at that point Damnation is the only way you are winning that game.
EDIT: That being said... if you want a "closer" there is no better card than Hazoret the Fervent.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I am not blathering on. I am simply responding to someone who was responding to my argument. Would never have brought it up again if someone didn't directly reference my argument. Additionally - the 6 pages I reference to are NOT my own comments, but people posting specific examples of how the God was good. In every case (that I read) they were already ahead. Hence my comment.
Also - can we not keep this topic constructive? Your post literally has nothing to do with either keeping things on topic or Jund.
It serves zero purpose.
Hazorate is a great closer if you are already ahead... but based on my own play testing (and other testimonies here) it doesn't do alot if you are behind.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Technically it is. Yes the sample size is not large enough to actually come to a 100% conclusion (hence why I keep asking for other examples)
but it IS statistics and actual game play.
Statistics are numbers. Game results ARE numbers. If 90% of the games where hazorate is good you're already ahead... there is a good chance it's a card that is only good when you are ahead.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
90% (another number you've pulled from air it seems) of a crappy sample size is a good way to spread misinformation. I'm just asking you to prove your own statements or at least provide more than personal sentiment. IIRC, you personally tried it for one night?
Btw, it's not just you. I am skeptical of a lot that's been put on this particular subforum for about the last ten pages. There's a boat load of theorycrafting and personal sentiment.
FYI: the 90% number was theoretical and arbitrary (not actual). I wasn't saying that 90% of the games WHERE that way.
So far that appears to be the case... but thats only out of a couple dozen games (which is not enough).
My apologizes if my statement was confusing.
I personally have about a dozen games on free programs testing against myself (plus the posts here).
To play devil's advocate (Against myself) maybe we do need a win more card?
Arguably our worst matchups (tron, Eldrazi Tron) only get worse the longer the game goes on.... maybe we need a win-more card to close out the game quickly.
Again.... not enough games to know for sure.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4 tarmogoy
3 scavenging ooze
4 dark confidant
1 chandra torch of defense
4 liliana of the veil
2 kolaghan's command
1 maelstron pulse
2 abrupt decay
3 terminate
2 fatal push
3 lightning bolt
3 thoughtseize
4 iok
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
2 blood cryptic
1 overgrown tomb
2 swamp
1 forest
3 blackcleave cliffs
1 fast land bg
2 grove of burnwillows
3 raging ravne
For now that is my list, thinking about huntmaster instead of chandra.
(Sorry for my englissh dudes)
Personally, I tend to like Chandra, Torch of Defiance in midrange mirrors or against control. I'm not as big a fan as most others are. That said, it's seemingly a fine choice to generate card advantage or pressure via her ultimate, which is usually game-ending.
As far as Grove of the Burnwillows against Death's Shadow, that's getting a little too cute. Midrange decks usually have a pretty good game against Death's Shadow as-is. My only suggestion is to add at least 1 more Fatal Push in the sideboard or main deck somewhere. It's particularly good against Death's Shadow.
Also, you have to be careful with activating Hazoret against Death's Shadow. The first person to mess up the combat math usually loses.
Good luck.
You mean "always"
Concerning Hazoret, I am generally a bit torn apart whether I like it or not. I didn't play it myself yet so I can't tell anything right now, but just by thinking about it, Hazoret seems really amazing in topdeck mode, but veery bad in a situation where you need a big fatty on board but you happen to have extra cards in hand. Sometimes we have to play with clunky hands like these and here Hazoret does seem like a 4 mana do nothin card (if you cast him and have extra cards in hand) and I generally don't like such cards. Usually such cards are devastating topdecks, but not with Hazoret at the very least, which is a positive aspect. Maybe running him in a more cheaper manacurve is the best way, but I am not sure whether I like that or not. There is not much I want to cut from the 3 cmc range, I like the Lilis and KCommands, so Idk if it would change much.
On Chandra: Been there, tested her, was very unexcited. I think she is only good against midrange and control, and out of these two I probably only want her against control, because we have enough tools to win grindy games (and she doesn't help vs. Lingering Souls in any way, which is a huge factor for me).
It never felt great minusing 3 in order to deal 4 dmg to a creature, which does not kill anything relevant atm (also sadly looking at you bolt). The ultimate is gg, but I don't rate planeswalkers primarily after their ultimate. Her both +1 abilities are ok, but the CA ability is the only intriguing for me. I rarely need extra red (the least important colour) mana, especially after bolt disappeared.
Activating Ravine is pretty much the only scenario where I liked her mana ramping as well, but for the rest it was pretty mediocre in my experience.
Kalitas and Resto are both creatures not played very often nowadays, killing TKS is great, but its just one creature. I am more concerned that her -3 won't kill a DS, Goyf, Titan or Smasher. And if you look at the rest of the most played creatures right now, does -3ing Chandra feel great on Lingering Souls Token, Llanovar Elves, Ornithopter/Memnite, Prized Amalgam, Narcomoeba, Bloodghast, Kitchen Finks? I highly doubt it TBH.
In my experience, always when I needed to -3 her in order to kill a creature, she just died the next turn through attacks. And at this point I was questioning if I want to play a 4 mana deal 4 dmg card in my deck (which it more or less was in this scenario). For me, the answer was just no.
(Example from Goldfish)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Terminate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Modern: Jund
Without Lightning Bolt, Blackcleave Cliffs doesn't seem like a four-of. Folks on the Fatal Push-plan usually run two Blooming Marsh in place of two Cliffs.
Personally, I cringe seeing only one Abrupt Decay. I like three, but two is currently more common. A Maelstrom Pulse needs to somewhere; I like one main and one side but that might not be best for a blind meta.
Six discard is almost dogma, but seven probably isn't the worst idea in the world.
Main-deck Fulminator Mage is somewhat unusual but not unheard of. I don't think one would call it "vanilla", rather a meta-game specific call.
Someone else has already commented on the Chandras; Chandra, Torch of Defiance is more common these days, but again, it's probably not "vanilla" but a little spice.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Hazoret, The Fervent
1x Glorybringer
Planeswalkers
4x Liliana, of the Veil
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Spells
3x Fatal Push
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Terminate
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Kolaghan’s Command
2x Lightning Bolt
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Raging Ravine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Fetid Heath
1x Liliana, The Last Hope
1x Obstinate Baloth
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Ancient Grudge
Modern: Jund
I like your list other than that, jam a couple games and see how your meta looks like.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Spells (19)
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Shatterstorm
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/655660#paper]
Yes indeed! Lets hope he recorded his tournament, would be interesting to hear about some card choises.
Why 2 x Chandra, when based on his sideboard he was expecting lots of affinity?
Why 2 x Leyline of the Void? Against what matchup are you willing to mulligan hard to find one of those anyways?
Zero board sweepers feels also risky to me, but I guess he was planning to stop Collected Company with Cages.