Took the list above to an disappointing result of 2-2.
R1: 2-1 against hardened scales walking ballista combo
R2: 2-1 against UR gifts storm
R3: 0-2 against BANT CoCo (2 Bobs on table drew only lands, not the DAMNations or any other removal for that matter!)
R4: 0-2 against random GW hatebear eldrazi planeswalker deck (Planeswalkers + Sicarda are baaad for jund!)
10 discard + surgical snatching empty the warrens made UR storm feel like a BYE. R1 I sided all discard out and R3&R4 I only kept thoughtseizes in.
Only drew Hazoret once during the whole evening, against the hardened scales deck and she won the game (sided her out against storm). I have to say that she can be a HUGE nonbo if you have an active Bob on the table. I kept drawing several lands in a row so it was hard to get her active. Opponent was pinging me with small creatures so I wanted to keep Hazoret in my hand so that I could drop her as a surprise haste swing for 5 dmg. When I finally got down to one card in hand, I managed to swing for 5. Next turn I drew Damnation and wiped away all but Hazoret and Finks and I swinged in for lethal.
When thinking this play afterwards, it prolly would have been correct play to just play her out even without her being able to attack/block and then just dump the excess cards next turn with her ability.
I can feel that Hazoret has potential. I prolly would have played some other 4 drop (Kalitas, Huntmaster) earlier in the above scenario. Kalitas generating tokens from Damnation would have also won the game for me I think. On R4 I was thinking that topdecked Hazoret + Ravine would have won me the race against lonely Sicarda, but of course I was only drawing lands..
Haste and indestructibility give a huge edge against the other 4 drops we usually run. Jund likes to be at the topdeck war anyways, so in general it shouldn't be a problem to get Hazoret hasted out.
Fatal Push took out some big creatures during R1, where bolt wouldn't have been able to do it. BANT CoCo player had Mirran Crusader, so here the bolt would have been good.
Hey everybody, first time poster long time lurker, been off jund for a while to play abzan and with arrival of some new additions it has made me keen to lace up old faithful again. Looking forward to some constructive discussion and playtesting. Feels good to be back.
So after playing the more aggressive build of Jund tonight...
I now know why I dislike Hazoret the Fervent.
Jund <for me> has always been out valuing your opponent by both one-for-ones and generating card advantage through cards like Dark Confident.
The aggro version (and Hazoret specifically) does not play nicely with card-advantage or card-drawing engines.
It makes cards like Dark Confident and Painful Truths less optimal.
Bottom line: I would rather win my games by outvauling my opponents (not simply controlling the board state until I can land a threat that can close the game quickly). If I wanted the later... I would personally just play Suicide Jund.
It could be good... but it does take Jund into a different direction than traditional lists.
It also dramatically impacts sideboard/mainboard choices.
Hey everybody, first time poster long time lurker, been off jund for a while to play abzan and with arrival of some new additions it has made me keen to lace up old faithful again. Looking forward to some constructive discussion and playtesting. Feels good to be back.
Welcome back! What does your current build look like?
Just moved houses got no net for a while but have ordered my Hazorets and Glorybringers in paper to play around with. Going to try something along the lines of:
Hazoret, the Fervent is actually interesting to run.
The argument that it can be removed easily is not accurate. Hazoret does not often come down on turn 4. Same as our other 4-drops. Your opponent will be exhausting all of their removals already to your Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf before you play Hazoret.
Most of the time, Jund goes hellbent. The reasons why you have too many cards on hand late game is because either your Bob lived long enough to get you extra cards, or Painful Truths, or you are not casting spells correctly. If Bob lived too long, you already won the game most of the time.
Hazoret and Death's Shadow close the game quickly. But I still choose Hazoret because Death's Shadow is too fragile to run even though it is a consistent deck. Traditional Jund requires a lot of skills and experience.
Better test the card out hundreds or thousands of times before you argue that the card is bad.
Hazoret, the Fervent is actually interesting to run.
The argument that it can be removed easily is not accurate. Hazoret does not often come down on turn 4. Same as our other 4-drops. Your opponent will be exhausting all of their removals already to your Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf before you play Hazoret.
Most of the time, Jund goes hellbent. The reasons why you have too many cards on hand late game is because either your Bob lived long enough to get you extra cards, or Painful Truths, or you are not casting spells correctly. If Bob lived too long, you already won the game most of the time.
Hazoret and Death's Shadow close the game quickly. But I still choose Hazoret because Death's Shadow is too fragile to run even though it is a consistent deck. Traditional Jund requires a lot of skills and experience.
Better test the card out hundreds or thousands of times before you argue that the card is bad.
It isn't a jund card. If you want what hazoret is offering, you'd be better going suicide jund imo
Playing hazorart requires fundemening building your deck in a different way. If you just try slamming hazorat into a traditional list it will be mediocre.
I have no doubt hazorat can win games... but for me that doesn't mean it's good or something we even want.
2-0 against Burn
2-1 against Abzan Elves
2-1 against GB Elves
Out of the 8 games, Hazoret won me 4. The hasted 5 damage indestructible body is quite excellect. It forces opponents into either unfavourable chump blocks or face an insanely fast clock backed up by bolts and his shock ability.
Against burn I was at 7 life at one point, he was on 15. I played Hazoret and attacked for 5. Next turn draw a bolt, attack for 5, bolt for 3, Kommand for 2. 15 damage in 2 turns.
Against Elves, I managed a damnation. Then Hazoret onto an empty board for 5, next turn 5 + 2 from activation, close out with bolt. Another game I kept his board low on creatures, and they were forced to chump block Hazoret again and again.
I can see Hazoret stand up against Tasigur, Smashers, Thoughtknots, Anglers all day and come out ahead. Don't forget he can stare just them down and ping them for 2 or more every turn.
Of course, the maindeck has to accomodate him i.e. I was playing a lot more 1 drops to lower my curve - 3 bolts, 3 pushes, 4 Ioks, 3 Thoughtseize.
I did play a mainboard Thundermaw Hellkite (should be a Glorybringer, but I'm waiting for the Gameday promo + my meta has a ton of lingering souls) but didn't get to see him all night. All I did was pitch him to Brutality once.
Maybe I ran hot or got good match ups, so I'll have to test him more. All I can say is that I'm impressed thus far.
Against burn I was at 7 life at one point, he was on 15. I played Hazoret and attacked for 5. Next turn draw a bolt, attack for 5, bolt for 3, Kommand for 2. 15 damage in 2 turns.
You were able to more damage in two turns than a burn player (who is dedicated to dealing damage).
This is the type of situation I am talking about where I say any other 4 drop would probably have won you the game as well.
Feed the clans, Huntmaster, etc. would have all won you this game on the spot as well. A burn player could easily take you down from 7 to zero in 2-3 turns. Because he didn't... I am guessing he drew all lands. You were more than likely going to win this game anyways.
Against Elves, I managed a damnation. Then Hazoret onto an empty board for 5, next turn 5 + 2 from activation, close out with bolt. Another game I kept his board low on creatures, and they were forced to chump block Hazoret again and again.
In both cases you were already winning the game. With damnation (unless he had collected company or 4-5 cards in hand) he's not coming back from that.
In the second case: if he was chump blocking the God he probably would have been forced to chump block a Tarmagoyf as well. (or completely dead to Huntsmaster).
Against burn I was at 7 life at one point, he was on 15. I played Hazoret and attacked for 5. Next turn draw a bolt, attack for 5, bolt for 3, Kommand for 2. 15 damage in 2 turns.
You were able to more damage in two turns than a burn player (who is dedicated to dealing damage).
This is the type of situation I am talking about where I say any other 4 drop would probably have won you the game as well.
Feed the clans, Huntmaster, etc. would have all won you this game on the spot as well. A burn player could easily take you down from 7 to zero in 2-3 turns. Because he didn't... I am guessing he drew all lands. You were more than likely going to win this game anyways.
Against Elves, I managed a damnation. Then Hazoret onto an empty board for 5, next turn 5 + 2 from activation, close out with bolt. Another game I kept his board low on creatures, and they were forced to chump block Hazoret again and again.
In both cases you were already winning the game. With damnation (unless he had collected company or 4-5 cards in hand) he's not coming back from that.
In the second case: if he was chump blocking the God he probably would have been forced to chump block a Tarmagoyf as well. (or completely dead to Huntsmaster).
That may very well be true, I got decent to good matchups tonight which I know how to play. I'll try to run it through a gauntlet of different decks and see how it measures up. So far I've liked it over Huntmaster.
Also, in this meta I'll cut bolts completely if I'm not running Hazoret. Was on a bolt-less jund list for the last 1-2 months and doing well
Against burn I was at 7 life at one point, he was on 15. I played Hazoret and attacked for 5. Next turn draw a bolt, attack for 5, bolt for 3, Kommand for 2. 15 damage in 2 turns.
You were able to more damage in two turns than a burn player (who is dedicated to dealing damage).
This is the type of situation I am talking about where I say any other 4 drop would probably have won you the game as well.
Feed the clans, Huntmaster, etc. would have all won you this game on the spot as well. A burn player could easily take you down from 7 to zero in 2-3 turns. Because he didn't... I am guessing he drew all lands. You were more than likely going to win this game anyways.
Against Elves, I managed a damnation. Then Hazoret onto an empty board for 5, next turn 5 + 2 from activation, close out with bolt. Another game I kept his board low on creatures, and they were forced to chump block Hazoret again and again.
In both cases you were already winning the game. With damnation (unless he had collected company or 4-5 cards in hand) he's not coming back from that.
In the second case: if he was chump blocking the God he probably would have been forced to chump block a Tarmagoyf as well. (or completely dead to Huntsmaster).
That may very well be true, I got decent to good matchups tonight which I know how to play. I'll try to run it through a gauntlet of different decks and see how it measures up. So far I've liked it over Huntmaster.
Also, in this meta I'll cut bolts completely if I'm not running Hazoret. Was on a bolt-less jund list for the last 1-2 months and doing well
I don't know, after playing a bolt-less version last night.. I miss that card.
It was the first time in a few months I went 0-2 drop. Going back to my traditional build :P.
Also - I apologize if I seem too harsh/opinionated. My hunch is Hazoret the Fervent is a very hard to evaluate unbiased.
Closing out the game quickly feels good regardless of whether the card deserves a spot.
If it works for you, that's fantastic. I think my problem is I'd rather win by card advantage.
After debating this for 6+ pages... I think it boils down to two different methodologies
The Hazorate version wants to one-for-one until you can drop a threat that can close out the game quickly. It's less midrange and more aggro-control. (in my biased opinion).
The non-god versions want to one-for-one and out value their opponents through sheer card advantage. Either drawing cards off of Bob/Painful Truths or generating card advantage through creatures like Kalitas and Huntsmaster.
I'm still running a Huntmaster because I think he's better than Hazoret when you're behind, but Hazoret is better for closing out games and being aggressive.
So far in testing Hazoret has felt great. I've blocked a few game winning DS swings and gave enough crack back to pull through. I haven't been able to utilize Glorybringer that much so my opinion on him is still up in the air. If I cut him I'll probably slide into another Hazoret or Huntmaster depending on the meta.
Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
My attitude towards hellkite has always been: if you expect alot of Abzan or BW tokens - play it.
Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
Hellkite is good, I'm even playing one MB in my souls-infested meta but that's a niche case. Flying 5/5 haste puts on serious pressure and only path / terminate can deal with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Raging Ravine
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Fatal Push
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Took the list above to an disappointing result of 2-2.
R1: 2-1 against hardened scales walking ballista combo
R2: 2-1 against UR gifts storm
R3: 0-2 against BANT CoCo (2 Bobs on table drew only lands, not the DAMNations or any other removal for that matter!)
R4: 0-2 against random GW hatebear eldrazi planeswalker deck (Planeswalkers + Sicarda are baaad for jund!)
10 discard + surgical snatching empty the warrens made UR storm feel like a BYE. R1 I sided all discard out and R3&R4 I only kept thoughtseizes in.
Only drew Hazoret once during the whole evening, against the hardened scales deck and she won the game (sided her out against storm). I have to say that she can be a HUGE nonbo if you have an active Bob on the table. I kept drawing several lands in a row so it was hard to get her active. Opponent was pinging me with small creatures so I wanted to keep Hazoret in my hand so that I could drop her as a surprise haste swing for 5 dmg. When I finally got down to one card in hand, I managed to swing for 5. Next turn I drew Damnation and wiped away all but Hazoret and Finks and I swinged in for lethal.
When thinking this play afterwards, it prolly would have been correct play to just play her out even without her being able to attack/block and then just dump the excess cards next turn with her ability.
I can feel that Hazoret has potential. I prolly would have played some other 4 drop (Kalitas, Huntmaster) earlier in the above scenario. Kalitas generating tokens from Damnation would have also won the game for me I think. On R4 I was thinking that topdecked Hazoret + Ravine would have won me the race against lonely Sicarda, but of course I was only drawing lands..
Haste and indestructibility give a huge edge against the other 4 drops we usually run. Jund likes to be at the topdeck war anyways, so in general it shouldn't be a problem to get Hazoret hasted out.
Fatal Push took out some big creatures during R1, where bolt wouldn't have been able to do it. BANT CoCo player had Mirran Crusader, so here the bolt would have been good.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I now know why I dislike Hazoret the Fervent.
Jund <for me> has always been out valuing your opponent by both one-for-ones and generating card advantage through cards like Dark Confident.
The aggro version (and Hazoret specifically) does not play nicely with card-advantage or card-drawing engines.
It makes cards like Dark Confident and Painful Truths less optimal.
Bottom line: I would rather win my games by outvauling my opponents (not simply controlling the board state until I can land a threat that can close the game quickly). If I wanted the later... I would personally just play Suicide Jund.
It could be good... but it does take Jund into a different direction than traditional lists.
It also dramatically impacts sideboard/mainboard choices.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Welcome back! What does your current build look like?
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hazoret the Fervant
1 Glorybringer
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Collective Brutality
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Boom//Bust
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
The argument that it can be removed easily is not accurate. Hazoret does not often come down on turn 4. Same as our other 4-drops. Your opponent will be exhausting all of their removals already to your Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze or Tarmogoyf before you play Hazoret.
Most of the time, Jund goes hellbent. The reasons why you have too many cards on hand late game is because either your Bob lived long enough to get you extra cards, or Painful Truths, or you are not casting spells correctly. If Bob lived too long, you already won the game most of the time.
Hazoret and Death's Shadow close the game quickly. But I still choose Hazoret because Death's Shadow is too fragile to run even though it is a consistent deck. Traditional Jund requires a lot of skills and experience.
Better test the card out hundreds or thousands of times before you argue that the card is bad.
It isn't a jund card. If you want what hazoret is offering, you'd be better going suicide jund imo
Playing hazorart requires fundemening building your deck in a different way. If you just try slamming hazorat into a traditional list it will be mediocre.
I have no doubt hazorat can win games... but for me that doesn't mean it's good or something we even want.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
2-0 against Burn
2-1 against Abzan Elves
2-1 against GB Elves
Out of the 8 games, Hazoret won me 4. The hasted 5 damage indestructible body is quite excellect. It forces opponents into either unfavourable chump blocks or face an insanely fast clock backed up by bolts and his shock ability.
Against burn I was at 7 life at one point, he was on 15. I played Hazoret and attacked for 5. Next turn draw a bolt, attack for 5, bolt for 3, Kommand for 2. 15 damage in 2 turns.
Against Elves, I managed a damnation. Then Hazoret onto an empty board for 5, next turn 5 + 2 from activation, close out with bolt. Another game I kept his board low on creatures, and they were forced to chump block Hazoret again and again.
I can see Hazoret stand up against Tasigur, Smashers, Thoughtknots, Anglers all day and come out ahead. Don't forget he can stare just them down and ping them for 2 or more every turn.
Of course, the maindeck has to accomodate him i.e. I was playing a lot more 1 drops to lower my curve - 3 bolts, 3 pushes, 4 Ioks, 3 Thoughtseize.
I did play a mainboard Thundermaw Hellkite (should be a Glorybringer, but I'm waiting for the Gameday promo + my meta has a ton of lingering souls) but didn't get to see him all night. All I did was pitch him to Brutality once.
Maybe I ran hot or got good match ups, so I'll have to test him more. All I can say is that I'm impressed thus far.
You were able to more damage in two turns than a burn player (who is dedicated to dealing damage).
This is the type of situation I am talking about where I say any other 4 drop would probably have won you the game as well.
Feed the clans, Huntmaster, etc. would have all won you this game on the spot as well. A burn player could easily take you down from 7 to zero in 2-3 turns. Because he didn't... I am guessing he drew all lands. You were more than likely going to win this game anyways.
In both cases you were already winning the game. With damnation (unless he had collected company or 4-5 cards in hand) he's not coming back from that.
In the second case: if he was chump blocking the God he probably would have been forced to chump block a Tarmagoyf as well. (or completely dead to Huntsmaster).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
That may very well be true, I got decent to good matchups tonight which I know how to play. I'll try to run it through a gauntlet of different decks and see how it measures up. So far I've liked it over Huntmaster.
Also, in this meta I'll cut bolts completely if I'm not running Hazoret. Was on a bolt-less jund list for the last 1-2 months and doing well
I don't know, after playing a bolt-less version last night.. I miss that card.
It was the first time in a few months I went 0-2 drop. Going back to my traditional build :P.
Also - I apologize if I seem too harsh/opinionated. My hunch is Hazoret the Fervent is a very hard to evaluate unbiased.
Closing out the game quickly feels good regardless of whether the card deserves a spot.
If it works for you, that's fantastic. I think my problem is I'd rather win by card advantage.
After debating this for 6+ pages... I think it boils down to two different methodologies
The Hazorate version wants to one-for-one until you can drop a threat that can close out the game quickly. It's less midrange and more aggro-control. (in my biased opinion).
The non-god versions want to one-for-one and out value their opponents through sheer card advantage. Either drawing cards off of Bob/Painful Truths or generating card advantage through creatures like Kalitas and Huntsmaster.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Why would we play the ooze over finks or vice versa?
mainboard GY hate. The exile clause can be super relevant.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Glorybringer
Zaps
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Ladies
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Grounds
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I'm still running a Huntmaster because I think he's better than Hazoret when you're behind, but Hazoret is better for closing out games and being aggressive.
So far in testing Hazoret has felt great. I've blocked a few game winning DS swings and gave enough crack back to pull through. I haven't been able to utilize Glorybringer that much so my opinion on him is still up in the air. If I cut him I'll probably slide into another Hazoret or Huntmaster depending on the meta.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
My attitude towards hellkite has always been: if you expect alot of Abzan or BW tokens - play it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Hellkite is good, I'm even playing one MB in my souls-infested meta but that's a niche case. Flying 5/5 haste puts on serious pressure and only path / terminate can deal with it.