What can't you understand? I said he put pressure on the opponent.
End the game quicker. Hard to remove. That's what he gives to me.That's what I want. If you want a drop 4 winning the game for you IF he doesnt get answered. Play it. I'm looking for an agressive and consistent list who's not always trying to defend. My oponent feel behind most of time because
my creatures hit hard. The haste is dangerous and surprising. Of course the
sky of kalitas/Olivia against aggro is higher but is it good against everything? Just like Hazoret is? NO. You don't have to like him. He's like my turn 4+ beat down creature. He's my death shadow without having to go low on life total.
@Godrik Actually I am wondering, did you have any situations where you wanted to play Hazoret and you had too many cards in hand to make him a creature? Thats basically the only fear I have playing him, sometimes, like, when you need a blocker, you want to play him and block, but just can't because its not a creature.
In that regard I feel Hazoret doesn't help when you are behind, like when you are screwed in mana or just get outtempoed by some aggressive decks.
What can't you understand? I said he put pressure on the opponent.
End the game quicker. Hard to remove. That's what he gives to me.That's what I want. If you want a drop 4 winning the game for you IF he doesnt get answered. Play it. I'm looking for an agressive and consistent list who's not always trying to defend. My oponent feel behind most of time because
my creatures hit hard. The haste is dangerous and surprising. Of course the
sky of kalitas/Olivia against aggro is higher but is it good against everything? Just like Hazoret is? NO. You don't have to like him. He's like my turn 4+ beat down creature. He's my death shadow without having to go low on life total.
Unless you are consistently hellbent by turn 4... this isn't a traditional 4 drop.
Also - you still don't get my question. I get why you play it. I get its role.
My question - is that role actually good enough to deserve a slot? Or is it just redundancy?
Most lists that have been doing well (with the exception of the most recent post) include both the God and Glorybringer.
Additionally there have been lists with Glorybringer (and no God) that have also done well.
That begs the question: is the deck good because of Hazoret or Glorybringer? (or perhaps both?). That is why I ask those questions.
Just because Hazoret "End[s] the game quicker. Hard to remove" does not mean it's the best card to fulfill that role or even the card you want to play to fulfill that role.
Here is another list to discuss, it had 3 Hazoret and a closer to normal average CMC, with a sideboard that isn't as different as Nunomgg's.
I like that list a lot, its basically what I also would run, I would run the same spellbase and creaturebase basically. I do think 24 lands is still safer though.
Unless you are consistently hellbent by turn 4... this isn't a traditional 4 drop.
I have to say, from experience I can definitely tell, most of our 4 drops usually don't come down on turn 4. So I disagree with your assessment of a traditional 4 drop here.
Unless you are consistently hellbent by turn 4... this isn't a traditional 4 drop.
I have to say, from experience I can definitely tell, most of our 4 drops usually don't come down on turn 4. So I disagree with your assessment of a traditional 4 drop here.
There is a difference between wanting to play a drop on turn 4... and not playing that said drop on turn 4 because we have better things to do.
Alot of our traditional four drops you'd actually be more than happy to cast on turn 4.
Agreed though in practice a lot of our four drops come down later due to wanting to cast removal and/or hand disruption instead (or cheaper threats).
@Godrik Actually I am wondering, did you have any situations where you wanted to play Hazoret and you had too many cards in hand to make him a creature? Thats basically the only fear I have playing him, sometimes, like, when you need a blocker, you want to play him and block, but just can't because its not a creature.
In that regard I feel Hazoret doesn't help when you are behind, like when you are screwed in mana or just get outtempoed by some aggressive decks.
It happened that I had no pressure from my oponent and I played him on turn 4 with 3-4 cards in hand. Of course, If I can.. I will dark or tarmo first
to keep removal up. Everytime I droped him without having 1 or fewer card in hand, the next turn I had 1 or fewer card in hand. so all I lost in the
'HASTE' value.
Against very agressif deck (elf, goblins, affinity) I think it's the only matchups where I would sb him out for some sweeper.
I would really test the first list I posted first.. then make the changes you want. I fear your curve being too high and dont like him.
With 15 drop 1 (9discards).. the hand get empty pretty quickly. Maybe the duress could be collective brutality tho.
Axman, the deck is good because of both card together. Glorybringer just had to the agressive aspect of the deck why being able to remove a blocker.
I would not play 2 glory bringer; Curve would be a bit too high. As I said, on mtgo I drew most of time Hazoret without drawing Glorybringer and
I'm definitivly sure he deserve a slot. I think 3 is a bit too much tho because you want to empty your hand before playing him;; when you have 2 copies in hand,it a bit harder to play him with haste. It's the best 4 drop in my opinion to fulfill that role. Anyway man, I think we are at a point you should test him yourself to make your own opinion (with the list I posted). You will see if you like or not. To finish, of course Glorybringer is pretty good. I dont remember I lost a game when I drop him. But it's a 5 drop.. I would not play more than 1 x 5 drop in jund.
@Godrik Actually I am wondering, did you have any situations where you wanted to play Hazoret and you had too many cards in hand to make him a creature? Thats basically the only fear I have playing him, sometimes, like, when you need a blocker, you want to play him and block, but just can't because its not a creature.
In that regard I feel Hazoret doesn't help when you are behind, like when you are screwed in mana or just get outtempoed by some aggressive decks.
It happened that I had no pressure from my oponent and I played him on turn 4 with 3-4 cards in hand. Of course, If I can.. I will dark or tarmo first
to keep removal up. Everytime I droped him without having 1 or fewer card in hand, the next turn I had 1 or fewer card in hand. so all I lost in the
'HASTE' value.
Against very agressif deck (elf, goblins, affinity) I think it's the only matchups where I would sb him out for some sweeper.
I would really test the first list I posted first.. then make the changes you want. I fear your curve being too high and dont like him.
With 15 drop 1 (9discards).. the hand get empty pretty quickly. Maybe the duress could be collective brutality tho.
Axman, the deck is good because of both card together. Glorybringer just had to the agressive aspect of the deck why being able to remove a blocker.
I would not play 2 glory bringer; Curve would be a bit too high. As I said, on mtgo I drew most of time Hazoret without drawing Glorybringer and
I'm definitivly sure he deserve a slot. I think 3 is a bit too much tho because you want to empty your hand before playing him;; when you have 2 copies in hand,it a bit harder to play him with haste. It's the best 4 drop in my opinion to fulfill that role. Anyway man, I think we are at a point you should test him yourself to make your own opinion (with the list I posted). You will see if you like or not. To finish, of course Glorybringer is pretty good. I dont remember I lost a game when I drop him. But it's a 5 drop.. I would not play more than 1 x 5 drop in jund.
There have been alot of lists lately with x2 GloryBringer which have done very very well. Only reason I mention playing two.
Also - do you stream and/or capture video on MTGO? Would be great to watch games.
I got out of MTGO to build Jund in person. So no online testing for me.
Unless you are consistently hellbent by turn 4... this isn't a traditional 4 drop.
I have to say, from experience I can definitely tell, most of our 4 drops usually don't come down on turn 4. So I disagree with your assessment of a traditional 4 drop here.
There is a difference between wanting to play a drop on turn 4... and not playing that said drop on turn 4 because we have better things to do.
Alot of our traditional four drops you'd actually be more than happy to cast on turn 4.
Agreed though in practice a lot of our four drops come down later due to wanting to cast removal and/or hand disruption instead (or cheaper threats).
Well, since reality is different, it doesn't matter whether we want to play a card on turn 4 or not, as you said, usually we have more important things to do, and therefore our 4 drops just aren't 4 drops in a lot of cases. And thats what matters here. If I see a Jund player always jamming down a 4 drop on turn 4 as soon as possible, then I highly question the skills of a given Jund player I must say (of course there are cases where we actually do play our 4 drops on turn 4, but definitely not always).
@Godrik Well investing 4 mana into something which doesn't do anything right away is always something I didn't like I must say. If I feel I have to do this regularly then I am not impressed by this card. But we'll see.
I think you are for sure right going for a lower curve makes sense. But I really dislike going up in discard spells all that much. 7 is the max for me.
I dont stream.. but just a small screenshot exemple..
The dude attacked with deathshadow probably because he had snap to block tarmo or push to kill tarmo.
I played Hazoret on turn 5. He cant answer both so I win.
That's the perfect exemple about what I mean when I say. It's surprise the oponnent.
If you drew a land instead of Hazorat you would have also had lethal unless your opponent had exactly two fatal pushes or an additional fatal push + bolt in hand. (which is statistically unlikely considering he had already cast a fatal push and one bolt).
That's actually a tricky spot to evaluate because it relies 100% on what is in his hand. (and we don't know that).
Flyingdelver, I said that sometimes (Rarely) I have nothing to play, nothing to kill. So I played him without being actived to
get value next turn. I played over 80 games with the list. So alot of situations happens in 80 games.. Most of time I dont play
him on turn 4.
Imagine my next turn if I draw land?
Hazoret + Tarmo + ravine. You see how agressive and beatdown it is?
I was 100% win. Would you take the risk to die to DS next turn if he had it (Bolt+push)?
He knows I had ravine on board, he knows I had tarmo on board and attacked anyway.
Bolt would have kill ravine too. Imagine my next turn?
Hazoret + Tarmo + ravine. You see how agressive and beatdown it is?
I was 100% win. Would you take the risk to die to DS next turn if he had it?
He knows I had ravine on board, he knows I had tarmo on board and attacked anyway.
Yes. But that's because alot of people forget about man-lands (especially online).
I do not have that tools to calculate the odds he had both fatal push + bolt (or double push) but I would imagine it would be less then 50%.
EDIT: Basically what I am saying is in that specific case... X% of the time Hazorat will be better than any other card in that exact same spot. Is that percentage high enough to warrant the card's inclusion?
Unfortunately... a single person play testing it won't get enough data points to actually make that conclusion 100%.
I'll keep this last list for Grand Prix Copenhague, next week.
My principal target is to finish at 10-5 without any Bye (I did 9-6 next summmer at Lille so it's possible)
I'll keep this last list for Grand Prix Copenhague, next week.
My principal target is to finish at 10-5 without any Bye (I did 9-6 next summmer at Lille so it's possible)
Gus
What do you think of cutting bolts and adding glorybringers? (like my above list)
End the game quicker. Hard to remove. That's what he gives to me.That's what I want. If you want a drop 4 winning the game for you IF he doesnt get answered. Play it. I'm looking for an agressive and consistent list who's not always trying to defend. My oponent feel behind most of time because
my creatures hit hard. The haste is dangerous and surprising. Of course the
sky of kalitas/Olivia against aggro is higher but is it good against everything? Just like Hazoret is? NO. You don't have to like him. He's like my turn 4+ beat down creature. He's my death shadow without having to go low on life total.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
In that regard I feel Hazoret doesn't help when you are behind, like when you are screwed in mana or just get outtempoed by some aggressive decks.
Here is another list to discuss, it had 3 Hazoret and a closer to normal average CMC, with a sideboard that isn't as different as Nunomgg's.
Unless you are consistently hellbent by turn 4... this isn't a traditional 4 drop.
Also - you still don't get my question. I get why you play it. I get its role.
My question - is that role actually good enough to deserve a slot? Or is it just redundancy?
Most lists that have been doing well (with the exception of the most recent post) include both the God and Glorybringer.
Additionally there have been lists with Glorybringer (and no God) that have also done well.
That begs the question: is the deck good because of Hazoret or Glorybringer? (or perhaps both?). That is why I ask those questions.
Just because Hazoret "End[s] the game quicker. Hard to remove" does not mean it's the best card to fulfill that role or even the card you want to play to fulfill that role.
Hence my questions.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I like that list a lot, its basically what I also would run, I would run the same spellbase and creaturebase basically. I do think 24 lands is still safer though.
I have to say, from experience I can definitely tell, most of our 4 drops usually don't come down on turn 4. So I disagree with your assessment of a traditional 4 drop here.
There is a difference between wanting to play a drop on turn 4... and not playing that said drop on turn 4 because we have better things to do.
Alot of our traditional four drops you'd actually be more than happy to cast on turn 4.
Agreed though in practice a lot of our four drops come down later due to wanting to cast removal and/or hand disruption instead (or cheaper threats).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
It happened that I had no pressure from my oponent and I played him on turn 4 with 3-4 cards in hand. Of course, If I can.. I will dark or tarmo first
to keep removal up. Everytime I droped him without having 1 or fewer card in hand, the next turn I had 1 or fewer card in hand. so all I lost in the
'HASTE' value.
Against very agressif deck (elf, goblins, affinity) I think it's the only matchups where I would sb him out for some sweeper.
I would really test the first list I posted first.. then make the changes you want. I fear your curve being too high and dont like him.
With 15 drop 1 (9discards).. the hand get empty pretty quickly. Maybe the duress could be collective brutality tho.
Axman, the deck is good because of both card together. Glorybringer just had to the agressive aspect of the deck why being able to remove a blocker.
I would not play 2 glory bringer; Curve would be a bit too high. As I said, on mtgo I drew most of time Hazoret without drawing Glorybringer and
I'm definitivly sure he deserve a slot. I think 3 is a bit too much tho because you want to empty your hand before playing him;; when you have 2 copies in hand,it a bit harder to play him with haste. It's the best 4 drop in my opinion to fulfill that role. Anyway man, I think we are at a point you should test him yourself to make your own opinion (with the list I posted). You will see if you like or not. To finish, of course Glorybringer is pretty good. I dont remember I lost a game when I drop him. But it's a 5 drop.. I would not play more than 1 x 5 drop in jund.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
There have been alot of lists lately with x2 GloryBringer which have done very very well. Only reason I mention playing two.
Also - do you stream and/or capture video on MTGO? Would be great to watch games.
I got out of MTGO to build Jund in person. So no online testing for me.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
The dude attacked with deathshadow probably because he had snap to block tarmo or push to kill tarmo.
I played Hazoret on turn 5. He cant answer both so I win.
That's the perfect exemple about what I mean when I say. It surprise the oponnent.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Well, since reality is different, it doesn't matter whether we want to play a card on turn 4 or not, as you said, usually we have more important things to do, and therefore our 4 drops just aren't 4 drops in a lot of cases. And thats what matters here. If I see a Jund player always jamming down a 4 drop on turn 4 as soon as possible, then I highly question the skills of a given Jund player I must say (of course there are cases where we actually do play our 4 drops on turn 4, but definitely not always).
@Godrik Well investing 4 mana into something which doesn't do anything right away is always something I didn't like I must say. If I feel I have to do this regularly then I am not impressed by this card. But we'll see.
I think you are for sure right going for a lower curve makes sense. But I really dislike going up in discard spells all that much. 7 is the max for me.
If you drew a land instead of Hazorat you would have also had lethal unless your opponent had exactly two fatal pushes or an additional fatal push + bolt in hand. (which is statistically unlikely considering he had already cast a fatal push and one bolt).
That's actually a tricky spot to evaluate because it relies 100% on what is in his hand. (and we don't know that).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
get value next turn. I played over 80 games with the list. So alot of situations happens in 80 games.. Most of time I dont play
him on turn 4.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Hazoret + Tarmo + ravine. You see how agressive and beatdown it is?
I was 100% win. Would you take the risk to die to DS next turn if he had it (Bolt+push)?
He knows I had ravine on board, he knows I had tarmo on board and attacked anyway.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Yes. But that's because alot of people forget about man-lands (especially online).
I do not have that tools to calculate the odds he had both fatal push + bolt (or double push) but I would imagine it would be less then 50%.
EDIT: Basically what I am saying is in that specific case... X% of the time Hazorat will be better than any other card in that exact same spot. Is that percentage high enough to warrant the card's inclusion?
Unfortunately... a single person play testing it won't get enough data points to actually make that conclusion 100%.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Which is why I have decided to reserve further comment until I test them out more. Will be taking it to FNM this week and share my observations
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Collective Brutality
1 Painful Truths
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
Here are the results :
Grixis Control
1-2 pre side board
3-1 post side
Eldrazi Tron
1-1 pre side board
2-1 post side
Burn
2-0 pre side board
2-1 post side
I'll keep this last list for Grand Prix Copenhague, next week.
My principal target is to finish at 10-5 without any Bye (I did 9-6 next summmer at Lille so it's possible)
Gus
What do you think of cutting bolts and adding glorybringers? (like my above list)
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA