@axman
Saying that something is ridiculous, when it is in fact ridiculous, is not a personal attack. If you are here to be 'victim' when the people don't agree with your points then please excuse yourself from this thread and do not return. You're telling me I can't win the argument but you are replying to only 1 of 4 points. Over, and over, and over, the members of this thread do not agree with your points, does that mean nothing to you?
@axman
Saying that something is ridiculous, when it is in fact ridiculous, is not a personal attack. If you are here to be 'victim' when the people don't agree with your points then please excuse yourself from this thread and do not return. You're telling me I can't win the argument but you are replying to only 1 of 4 points. Over, and over, and over, the members of this thread do not agree with your points, does that mean nothing to you?
@axman
Saying that something is ridiculous, when it is in fact ridiculous, is not a personal attack. If you are here to be 'victim' when the people don't agree with your points then please excuse yourself from this thread and do not return. You're telling me I can't win the argument but you are replying to only 1 of 4 points. Over, and over, and over, the members of this thread do not agree with your points, does that mean nothing to you?
You do realize you are partaking in the same exact thing you are accusing me of?
That is the only ridiculousle thing Here.
You accuse me of using my "biased meta" to justify my opinions... while using biased information yourself.
That's like the kettle calling the pot black.
It's equally rediculous that you think in a big tourney a good players won't play around a potential haste creature from a jund player.
And for the sake of forum sanity, I suggest we agree to disagree. We won't come to a census on this and "spinning our wheels" is not helping anyone
You are still not replying to my counterpoints. If I was exerting any personal meta bias into my logic then I'd be here convincing everyone to drop all their discard for value cards. I can assure you that you will find none of that in my comment history. I'm not sure where my bias is? I've participated in discussion on Hazoret and I never said it was amazing, just that it could be a good Jund 4-drop, while including multiple scenarios and situations where it could be used with versatility, so I'm confused about your accusation of my bias. I've also stated multiple times to be open minded and logical, rather than theoretical and closed minded. Those are not personal attacks and you shouldn't be taking them that way.
I will be seeing myself out of this unproductive discussion now.
You are still not replying to my counterpoints. If I was exerting any personal meta bias into my logic then I'd be here convincing everyone to drop all their discard for value cards. I can assure you that you will find none of that in my comment history. I'm not sure where my bias is? I've participated in discussion on Hazoret and I never said it was amazing, just that it could be a good Jund 4-drop, while including multiple scenarios and situations where it could be used with versatility, so I'm confused about your accusation of my bias. I've also stated multiple times to be open minded and logical, rather than theoretical and closed minded. Those are not personal attacks and you shouldn't be taking them that way.
I will be seeing myself out of this unproductive discussion now.
The fact that a smart player with play around it is NOT hypothetical and very much logical.
(happens all the time). The logical approach goes beyond "can this card be good" and analyses "is this the most ideal card".
There are several cards that power depends not on you or your deck... but the person sitting across from you.
Played with the 2x hazoret 1x glorybringer list tonight in a 20 people FNM. Finished third with 3-1.
Win 2-0 Grixis Shadow; (He was 0-0)
In third game he had 6/6 DS on play and I have Tarmogoyf 4/5; He attacks and I take it going down to 10.
Then he played snap into inquisition. I have Land, Baloth and Glorybringer in hand. He discard nothing.
At my turn, Glorybringer killing his blocker (snapcaster). He took 8 and died. As I said, the list is insane
against DS.
Win 2-0 Boggle Hexproof (He was 1-0)
In game 2 he played leyline on turn 4. Made the game a bit taugher but I won.
Lose 1-2 Infect (He was 2-0)
It was a free win to me.. I rarely lose to infect. It's a 80/20 Mu to me. I won game 1 with hazoret on board puting pressure
and played Glorybringer on turn 5 to get a blocker against his inkmoth. Then I won.
In game 2, I kept a hand with 4 lands. On turn 4 I still had 3 lands in hand.. I totally flooded.
In game 3, He drew 2 inkmoth and all my removal were sorcery speed or nonland destroyer. Never drew any Push, Bolt, ancient grudge.
I dont think I played wrong. Just badluck.
Win 2-1 Spirit (He was 3-0)
Game 1 has been won easy with early pressure. He was a bit curse.
Game 2; I had 2 lands on turn 5.. I lost.
Game 3 was insane. I have lili and hazoret on board. I +1 lili then he played in respond collected company.
Captain and spellqueller enter the battlefield. I play Glorybringer killing the captain. He had 8 hp so had to block.
I won the game on the next turn.
So as you can see, Hazoret and Glorybringer DID the job tonight once again.
Alot of people arround were saying ;; WTF??? hazoret and Glorybringer in jund??!!!!!!
YES GUYS YES!!
And the guy in front on me said;; Yes.... and it's good... They did the job.
Meiten, if you can't say it's Amazing. I say it. With the right list. It's strong.
As you can see, Every single round I made, I was against an undefeated person.
I lost dice roll on the first 3 round.
Oh one more thing, Hazoret has never been removed tonight ! and won every single game I casted him.
I don't care if you like or not. Personnally I'm amazed by the card and wanted to share it with you.
@Godrik1374 Thanks for the report and congrats on your finish! My 2 copies of Hazoret are in the mail and I'm excited to be testing with them in the next week. I had a long discussion about Hazoret with my buddies at weekly Modern last night and I'm strongly considering playing them at Vegas, pending testing. Your reports are exciting though and I'm looking forward to something new to the deck that many won't necessarily be expecting. I like how aggressive it can be.
This new heavier discard list with Hazoret and Glorybringer had honestly rejuvenated my interest with Jund. Will try it in my next FNM. Also, with the concern of Hazoret being easily removed by PTE or Edict effects, that is why we are playing a deluge of discard spells so we can play around it.
This new heavier discard list with Hazoret and Glorybringer had honestly rejuvenated my interest with Jund. Will try it in my next FNM. Also, with the concern of Hazoret being easily removed by PTE or Edict effects, that is why we are playing a deluge of discard spells so we can play around it.
Could I see your MB and SB? I've tried hazoret in a higher CMC list but he was a bit clunky. It appears that moving up to 8-10 MB discard with bolts is the correct shell. Any thoughts on Thundermaw over Glorybringer?
Wtyyy, read my report please Yes the curve need to be low with arround 15 drop 1 (9 discard/3bolt/3push)
Glory won me 2 importants games. Destroying their last blocker while having a 4/4 haste (+tarmo or hazoret) on board surprise the oponnent and deal serious damage.
Exept if your meta is full of abzan, I would not play Thundermaw over Glorybringer
Glorybringer is more versatile. Thundermaw is just a sb card to me.
Wtyyy, read my report please Yes the curve need to be low with arround 15 drop 1 (9 discard/3bolt/3push)
Glory won me 2 importants games. Destroying their last blocker while having a 4/4 haste (+tarmo or hazoret) on board surprise the oponnent and deal serious damage.
Exept if your meta is full of abzan, I would not play Thundermaw over Glorybringer
Glorybringer is more versatile. Thundermaw is just a sb card to me.
Played with the 2x hazoret 1x glorybringer list tonight in a 20 people FNM. Finished third with 3-1.
Win 2-0 Grixis Shadow; (He was 0-0)
In third game he had 6/6 DS on play and I have Tarmogoyf 4/5; He attacks and I take it going down to 10.
Then he played snap into inquisition. I have Land, Baloth and Glorybringer in hand. He discard nothing.
At my turn, Glorybringer killing his blocker (snapcaster). He took 8 and died. As I said, the list is insane
against DS.
Win 2-0 Boggle Hexproof (He was 1-0)
In game 2 he played leyline on turn 4. Made the game a bit taugher but I won.
Lose 1-2 Infect (He was 2-0)
It was a free win to me.. I rarely lose to infect. It's a 80/20 Mu to me. I won game 1 with hazoret on board puting pressure
and played Glorybringer on turn 5 to get a blocker against his inkmoth. Then I won.
In game 2, I kept a hand with 4 lands. On turn 4 I still had 3 lands in hand.. I totally flooded.
In game 3, He drew 2 inkmoth and all my removal were sorcery speed or nonland destroyer. Never drew any Push, Bolt, ancient grudge.
I dont think I played wrong. Just badluck.
Win 2-1 Spirit (He was 3-0)
Game 1 has been won easy with early pressure. He was a bit curse.
Game 2; I had 2 lands on turn 5.. I lost.
Game 3 was insane. I have lili and hazoret on board. I +1 lili then he played in respond collected company.
Captain and spellqueller enter the battlefield. I play Glorybringer killing the captain. He had 8 hp so had to block.
I won the game on the next turn.
So as you can see, Hazoret and Glorybringer DID the job tonight once again.
Alot of people arround were saying ;; WTF??? hazoret and Glorybringer in jund??!!!!!!
YES GUYS YES!!
And the guy in front on me said;; Yes.... and it's good... They did the job.
Meiten, if you can't say it's Amazing. I say it. With the right list. It's strong.
As you can see, Every single round I made, I was against an undefeated person.
I lost dice roll on the first 3 round.
Oh one more thing, Hazoret has never been removed tonight ! and won every single game I casted him.
I don't care if you like or not. Personnally I'm amazed by the card and wanted to share it with you.
Not to criticize your analysis - however it looks like every time you cast Hazoret the Fervent you also had GloryBringer. Glorybringer is an AMAZING card for Jund. I would argue based on your analysis you would probably have won the games you cast Hazoret the Fervent anyways even if it had been a different card (assuming all of your other draws remained the same).
When evaluating cards, I take the "would I still have won had it been any other card?" approach.
Was there any time when the God alone swung the game in your favor?
Wtyyy, read my report please Yes the curve need to be low with arround 15 drop 1 (9 discard/3bolt/3push)
Glory won me 2 importants games. Destroying their last blocker while having a 4/4 haste (+tarmo or hazoret) on board surprise the oponnent and deal serious damage.
Exept if your meta is full of abzan, I would not play Thundermaw over Glorybringer
Glorybringer is more versatile. Thundermaw is just a sb card to me.
Are you running the exact sideboard? Just wondering about the 4 SB leylines and 4 boom/busts
Looks like I'll have to take Glorybringer for a spin and see for myself
Oh no, my sb is totally different. Graveyard deck is not present in my meta Leyline could be good against grixis but the Matchup is already easy with the list.
Hm, I can see the potential of Hazoret, might will give him a try as well, using the referenced list as a basis. Glorybringer could be interesting but unsure yet, will post results when I get some.
The god has been good "Alone" in the way my oponent was never able to answer him.
He was taking at the very least 5 dmg per turn (or losing a creature) putting huge pressure on him. He helped to close the game quicker. There's a good synergie with dark confidant too. Being able at a point of the game to discard 2 cards per turn is great.
Huntmaster will get bolted with a 2/2 left and 2 life gained. I don't hate the card but
I expect better from a 4 drop (Rip BBE).
(MEUH)
Kalitas will be killed most of time with no zombies. Bad against control and combo deck.
(MEUH)
Hazoret is ALWAYS good. Insane pressure. Hard to deal with. Block forever any creatures on ground (hello reality smasher). Kill combo deck faster. The god is very consitent. That's why I love him so much.
Yes, yesterday I drew Hazoret into Glorybringer often. On mtgo I don't draw Glorybringer so often. Hazoret still helps me to win most of my game on mtgo without Glorybringer.
As I wrote earlier, the clock is fast with him. It happened I'm under 10 lifes and my oponent over 18 lifes,I top deck Hazoret. 3 turns later he's dead.
5 dmg + 7dmg + 7dmg ;;gg
I don't think I want to go up too much on discard spells, therefore only going up to 7 right now. I fear that I don't have that much to bring in in grindy matchups.
The god as been good "Alone" in the way my oponent was never able to answer him.
He was taking at the very least 5 dmg per turn (or losing a creature) putting huge pressure on him. He helped to close the game quicker. There's a good synergie with dark confidant too. Being able at a point of the game to discard 2 cards per turn is great.
Huntmaster will get bolted with a 2/2 left and 2 life gained.
(MEUH)
Kalitas will be killed most of time with no zombies.
(MEUH)
Hazoret is ALWAYS good. Insane pressure. Hard to deal with. Block forever any creatures on ground. Kill combo deck faster. The god is very consitent. That's why I love him so much.
I don't think you understand what I was asking...
Any card is
good "Alone"
if your opponent can't deal with. That goes for any card: huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, Liliana, Wurmcoil Engine, Goblin Rabblemaster, etc. (I could go on). Each of those cards will win you the game if they are not dealt with. Doesn't mean they necessarily deserve a spot. They "could" but that requires in depth analysis.
What I was asking... was there any game where casting the God substantially changed the game state? (either putting you ahead while behind or catching up).
The reason I ask is some of your game descriptions sounded like you could have lost even with Hazorate on the field, and it was other cards (such as Glorbringer) that actually allowed you to win. (either that or you where so far ahead it didn't matter).
EDIT: I am not saying that the above is 100% the case (because I can't watch your matches) but that's why I am asking.
Saying that something is ridiculous, when it is in fact ridiculous, is not a personal attack. If you are here to be 'victim' when the people don't agree with your points then please excuse yourself from this thread and do not return. You're telling me I can't win the argument but you are replying to only 1 of 4 points. Over, and over, and over, the members of this thread do not agree with your points, does that mean nothing to you?
You do realize you are partaking in the same exact thing you are accusing me of?
That is the only ridiculousle thing Here.
You accuse me of using my "biased meta" to justify my opinions... while using biased information yourself.
That's like the kettle calling the pot black.
It's equally rediculous that you think in a big tourney a good players won't play around a potential haste creature from a jund player.
And for the sake of forum sanity, I suggest we agree to disagree. We won't come to a census on this and "spinning our wheels" is not helping anyone
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I will be seeing myself out of this unproductive discussion now.
The fact that a smart player with play around it is NOT hypothetical and very much logical.
(happens all the time). The logical approach goes beyond "can this card be good" and analyses "is this the most ideal card".
There are several cards that power depends not on you or your deck... but the person sitting across from you.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Win 2-0 Grixis Shadow; (He was 0-0)
In third game he had 6/6 DS on play and I have Tarmogoyf 4/5; He attacks and I take it going down to 10.
Then he played snap into inquisition. I have Land, Baloth and Glorybringer in hand. He discard nothing.
At my turn, Glorybringer killing his blocker (snapcaster). He took 8 and died. As I said, the list is insane
against DS.
Win 2-0 Boggle Hexproof (He was 1-0)
In game 2 he played leyline on turn 4. Made the game a bit taugher but I won.
Lose 1-2 Infect (He was 2-0)
It was a free win to me.. I rarely lose to infect. It's a 80/20 Mu to me. I won game 1 with hazoret on board puting pressure
and played Glorybringer on turn 5 to get a blocker against his inkmoth. Then I won.
In game 2, I kept a hand with 4 lands. On turn 4 I still had 3 lands in hand.. I totally flooded.
In game 3, He drew 2 inkmoth and all my removal were sorcery speed or nonland destroyer. Never drew any Push, Bolt, ancient grudge.
I dont think I played wrong. Just badluck.
Win 2-1 Spirit (He was 3-0)
Game 1 has been won easy with early pressure. He was a bit curse.
Game 2; I had 2 lands on turn 5.. I lost.
Game 3 was insane. I have lili and hazoret on board. I +1 lili then he played in respond collected company.
Captain and spellqueller enter the battlefield. I play Glorybringer killing the captain. He had 8 hp so had to block.
I won the game on the next turn.
So as you can see, Hazoret and Glorybringer DID the job tonight once again.
Alot of people arround were saying ;; WTF??? hazoret and Glorybringer in jund??!!!!!!
YES GUYS YES!!
And the guy in front on me said;; Yes.... and it's good... They did the job.
Meiten, if you can't say it's Amazing. I say it. With the right list. It's strong.
As you can see, Every single round I made, I was against an undefeated person.
I lost dice roll on the first 3 round.
Oh one more thing, Hazoret has never been removed tonight ! and won every single game I casted him.
I don't care if you like or not. Personnally I'm amazed by the card and wanted to share it with you.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
UR Twin - RIP
Could I see your MB and SB? I've tried hazoret in a higher CMC list but he was a bit clunky. It appears that moving up to 8-10 MB discard with bolts is the correct shell. Any thoughts on Thundermaw over Glorybringer?
Glory won me 2 importants games. Destroying their last blocker while having a 4/4 haste (+tarmo or hazoret) on board surprise the oponnent and deal serious damage.
Exept if your meta is full of abzan, I would not play Thundermaw over Glorybringer
Glorybringer is more versatile. Thundermaw is just a sb card to me.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Yupp I read the report, I saw that you made reference to this original list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/640776#online
Are you running the exact sideboard? Just wondering about the 4 SB leylines and 4 boom/busts
Looks like I'll have to take Glorybringer for a spin and see for myself
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
3x Terminate
Planeswalker (5)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x GloryBringer
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Not to criticize your analysis - however it looks like every time you cast Hazoret the Fervent you also had GloryBringer.
Glorybringer is an AMAZING card for Jund. I would argue based on your analysis you would probably have won the games you cast Hazoret the Fervent anyways even if it had been a different card (assuming all of your other draws remained the same).
When evaluating cards, I take the "would I still have won had it been any other card?" approach.
Was there any time when the God alone swung the game in your favor?
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Oh no, my sb is totally different. Graveyard deck is not present in my meta Leyline could be good against grixis but the Matchup is already easy with the list.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
He was taking at the very least 5 dmg per turn (or losing a creature) putting huge pressure on him. He helped to close the game quicker. There's a good synergie with dark confidant too. Being able at a point of the game to discard 2 cards per turn is great.
Huntmaster will get bolted with a 2/2 left and 2 life gained. I don't hate the card but
I expect better from a 4 drop (Rip BBE).
(MEUH)
Kalitas will be killed most of time with no zombies. Bad against control and combo deck.
(MEUH)
Hazoret is ALWAYS good. Insane pressure. Hard to deal with. Block forever any creatures on ground (hello reality smasher). Kill combo deck faster. The god is very consitent. That's why I love him so much.
Yes, yesterday I drew Hazoret into Glorybringer often. On mtgo I don't draw Glorybringer so often. Hazoret still helps me to win most of my game on mtgo without Glorybringer.
As I wrote earlier, the clock is fast with him. It happened I'm under 10 lifes and my oponent over 18 lifes,I top deck Hazoret. 3 turns later he's dead.
5 dmg + 7dmg + 7dmg ;;gg
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Hazoret the Fervent
Noncreature Spells [24]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
I don't think I want to go up too much on discard spells, therefore only going up to 7 right now. I fear that I don't have that much to bring in in grindy matchups.
Thinking about this sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Olivia Voldaren
Could also see Thundermaw in the place of Olivia, but unsure yet.
I don't think you understand what I was asking...
Any card is if your opponent can't deal with. That goes for any card: huntmaster, Kalitas, Chandra, Liliana, Wurmcoil Engine, Goblin Rabblemaster, etc. (I could go on). Each of those cards will win you the game if they are not dealt with. Doesn't mean they necessarily deserve a spot. They "could" but that requires in depth analysis.
What I was asking... was there any game where casting the God substantially changed the game state? (either putting you ahead while behind or catching up).
The reason I ask is some of your game descriptions sounded like you could have lost even with Hazorate on the field, and it was other cards (such as Glorbringer) that actually allowed you to win. (either that or you where so far ahead it didn't matter).
EDIT: I am not saying that the above is 100% the case (because I can't watch your matches) but that's why I am asking.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA