And yes, I agree, I unfortunately think with BBE nowadays we just do need that 25 land build.
I'm slightly frustrated with Jund because it very much feels like these aggro decks can easily go under us and we easily can have this other decks go way over us.
I played UW Control last night, and while it was fun, I was a mess with it in person despite feeling like I wasn't slow. Misstapping lands and wrong triggers. Uw Control is good but I actually went to time for the first time in over a year and a half; it made me miss GBx (as I don't have time issues with it). I may literally sell all my blue staples as I'm not sure I'm meant to play a control deck, especially in a long tournament.
I think I'm pretty much stuck with GBx despite it's placement, it's like an abusive husband that won't let me go
I probably didn't need the basic Mountain in retrospect. What I noticed in the run up to the GP was that everyone seemed to be expecting a huge rise in big mana decks (specifically Tron) to combat Dredge. To beat a potential rise in Tron, people seemed to leaning heavily on aggro. I didn't really get it since I hadn't seen Tron numbers rising online or anywhere else. I did see a huge uptick in Burn and UR Phoenix decks though. I didn't see people playing the mono-red Phoenix variants but I was aware of them as well. That's why Kitchen Finks and Huntmaster seemed particularly useless. They do next to nothing impactful in other matches and aren't all that overwhelming against what I'm expecting. Collective Brutality, however, was a boss, and it was amazing throughout day 1. Day 2 the metagame shifted a bit. Even without a rise in aggro, I just don't think Kitchen Finks and Huntmaster are all that good any more. There isn't a single match up where I'm thinking, "Man, I wish I had a Finks right now." I really don't understand why Jadine is all aboard with it, and I'm glad it's kicking ass for her. That's just one train I refuse to get on until something changes.
I also can't just make the switch between control and Jund quickly any more even though I've played Jeskai flash and control builds longer than any other Modern deck. I think you need to give it some time if you're interested in becoming a competitive control player. UW miracles seems like one of the strongest decks to me. I just know I can't take it to any event that lasts longer than 4 rounds because I will personally lose my mind.
@chaos021 Congratz on the result, I really like your list a lot. Control is indeed very tough to play at a big tournament. I find Jund alone exhausting enough. So I can definitely understand that.
How do we feel about trying an old staple, Olivia Voldaren, again? She can block in the air as well as shoot down X/1's or even something bigger when combined with Liliana the Last Hope. I haven't played her in a year but I always felt like untapping with her was enough to lock a game up. She might be too slow, but just a suggestion.
How do we feel about trying an old staple, Olivia Voldaren, again? She can block in the air as well as shoot down X/1's or even something bigger when combined with Liliana the Last Hope. I haven't played her in a year but I always felt like untapping with her was enough to lock a game up. She might be too slow, but just a suggestion.
When I started playing MtG/Jund again this year I sleeved up Olivia for my sideboard because I used to wreck shop with her (especially against Melira Pod, I pulled some memorable wins out of my a** with her in that grindfest of a MU). She didn’t stay in my SB long though. She just seems too slow now. I feel like the decks we want to bring her in against already have us up against a wall by the time she’s online and ready to start pinging and jacking critters. She used to be awesome with Lavaman. Now I feel like Lili,tLH fills that role a lot more efficiently. If you find a way to make her work or she ends up just performing really well for you I’d like to hear it, because I love that card.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I'm slightly frustrated with Jund because it very much feels like these aggro decks can easily go under us and we easily can have this other decks go way over us.
This was the overall conclusion that I came to after testing various B/G/x decks after Assassin's Trophy came out. It just feels like everything is a bad matchup now, even the creature-based matchups that were traditionally favorable for us. I ended up moving to Traverse Shadow and then back to Grixis Shadow, which is what I've been playing this year up until the Trophy printing. I would actually play either Shadow deck over one of the other B/G/x decks right now, because they operate similarly but have much higher card efficiency, which lets them keep pace with the faster decks of the format. Grixis, specifically, also has an absurd amount of flexibility in how you build/sideboard/execute it.
It's hard to even say what it is that Jund actually needs at this point. Trophy did so much for the deck's bad matchups and freeing up it's sideboard, but the clunky set of removal it replaced was the most glaring issue in the deck's shell. I really liked Jadine's recent list and how it lowered the overall curve of the deck, but even then it's still a 24 land deck that can't filter its draws. I think that the high land count and inability to really mitigate flooding are what's made grinding with Jund so much harder lately.
I agree. At one point, I was trying to jam a 4th Dark Confidant or a Tireless Tracker somewhere in the 75, but they're both actually slower than what I really want. I may try Traverse Shadow again. I absolutely am not a fan of Grixis Shadow.
Thats the exact reason why I like to make my aggro matchups favourable. 4 Bolts and 2 Pushs main for me. 3 CBs in the 75. 2 LtLH in the 75. I think its not unreasonable to have 1 Decay in the main as well. I think you can definitely hedge a bit, without too many costs.
Thats the exact reason why I like to make my aggro matchups favourable. 4 Bolts and 2 Pushs main for me. 3 CBs in the 75. 2 LtLH in the 75. I think its not unreasonable to have 1 Decay in the main as well. I think you can definitely hedge a bit, without too many costs.
I agree, but what would you cut in the list I posted to add a second Fatal Push to the main deck? That was a question I couldn't answer myself.
EDIT: I should say that I did have an answer. It just didn't make sense (Liliana of the Veil).
Thats the exact reason why I like to make my aggro matchups favourable. 4 Bolts and 2 Pushs main for me. 3 CBs in the 75. 2 LtLH in the 75. I think its not unreasonable to have 1 Decay in the main as well. I think you can definitely hedge a bit, without too many costs.
I agree, but what would you cut in the list I posted to add a second Fatal Push to the main deck? That was a question I couldn't answer myself.
EDIT: I should say that I did have an answer. It just didn't make sense (Liliana of the Veil).
I guess Pulse, which could be then shifted into the SB, or be in the deck instead of the third Trophy. But I personally am not running it atm. Here is my current list:
I'm slightly frustrated with Jund because it very much feels like these aggro decks can easily go under us and we easily can have this other decks go way over us.
This was the overall conclusion that I came to after testing various B/G/x decks after Assassin's Trophy came out. It just feels like everything is a bad matchup now, even the creature-based matchups that were traditionally favorable for us. I ended up moving to Traverse Shadow and then back to Grixis Shadow, which is what I've been playing this year up until the Trophy printing. I would actually play either Shadow deck over one of the other B/G/x decks right now, because they operate similarly but have much higher card efficiency, which lets them keep pace with the faster decks of the format. Grixis, specifically, also has an absurd amount of flexibility in how you build/sideboard/execute it.
It's hard to even say what it is that Jund actually needs at this point. Trophy did so much for the deck's bad matchups and freeing up it's sideboard, but the clunky set of removal it replaced was the most glaring issue in the deck's shell. I really liked Jadine's recent list and how it lowered the overall curve of the deck, but even then it's still a 24 land deck that can't filter its draws. I think that the high land count and inability to really mitigate flooding are what's made grinding with Jund so much harder lately.
Yeah, bro, we are often on the same page here. I felt trampled on.
Maybe I'll hold onto my snapcasters and foil tarns.
I think uw control is a straight up better deck than gbx, but I don't think I have the skill or mental ability to pilot it well.
Jund needs something, I just dont know what. It already has removal. I find myself falling behind in spot removal now, something that wasnt common.
Filtering is becoming a must in modern. The gp proved that ancient stirrings and faithless looting were massive factors in deck building. You cannot afford to draw 4 lands in a row.
Maybe Oath of Nissa is good card to filter cards, like a "green Ponder"
It certanly is a good card, in much the same way that ancient stirings is a good card. It also has some synergies being legendary and enchantment.
That being said the jund deck has far to many dead cards for it. All the discard and removal is bad with it and that is the core of jund. Perhaps if you reworked the deck from the ground up with mox amber, superfriends, oath of liliana and reki, historian of kamigawa you would have enough dencety to use it and also benefit from the legendary status. But the deck would not be jund. And the lack of discard means you have no good awnsers vs combo.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Hmm. Maybe there is some merit to a Jund Arclight deck? Similar in construction to Mardu Pyro but with green for a better clock and removal? Arclight gives some payoff to faithless looting that doesnt require white.
I'm not sure this is on topic for this thread anymore though. This would be a completely difference deck.
The idea of playing 0 LOTV sounds awful, she's a huge part to beating combo decks.
Jund needs some good card filtering in it's colors.
I can't state what type of card would turn all this around, but luckily Jund is a popular color.
UW control was a trash deck until this year, with Azcanta, a Jace unban, Teferi and using terminus in conjunction. It can happen to any deck. Whatever the solution is, I don't think it's a top tier removal that's going to push jund over the edge.
I do think the solution is that new cards need to come out, and that it's less about trying to come up with funky ideas suggested here.
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Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Did you post your list?
And yes, I agree, I unfortunately think with BBE nowadays we just do need that 25 land build.
I'm slightly frustrated with Jund because it very much feels like these aggro decks can easily go under us and we easily can have this other decks go way over us.
I played UW Control last night, and while it was fun, I was a mess with it in person despite feeling like I wasn't slow. Misstapping lands and wrong triggers. Uw Control is good but I actually went to time for the first time in over a year and a half; it made me miss GBx (as I don't have time issues with it). I may literally sell all my blue staples as I'm not sure I'm meant to play a control deck, especially in a long tournament.
I think I'm pretty much stuck with GBx despite it's placement, it's like an abusive husband that won't let me go
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants(11)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push
Sorceries (6)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Collective Brutality
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
I probably didn't need the basic Mountain in retrospect. What I noticed in the run up to the GP was that everyone seemed to be expecting a huge rise in big mana decks (specifically Tron) to combat Dredge. To beat a potential rise in Tron, people seemed to leaning heavily on aggro. I didn't really get it since I hadn't seen Tron numbers rising online or anywhere else. I did see a huge uptick in Burn and UR Phoenix decks though. I didn't see people playing the mono-red Phoenix variants but I was aware of them as well. That's why Kitchen Finks and Huntmaster seemed particularly useless. They do next to nothing impactful in other matches and aren't all that overwhelming against what I'm expecting. Collective Brutality, however, was a boss, and it was amazing throughout day 1. Day 2 the metagame shifted a bit. Even without a rise in aggro, I just don't think Kitchen Finks and Huntmaster are all that good any more. There isn't a single match up where I'm thinking, "Man, I wish I had a Finks right now." I really don't understand why Jadine is all aboard with it, and I'm glad it's kicking ass for her. That's just one train I refuse to get on until something changes.
When I started playing MtG/Jund again this year I sleeved up Olivia for my sideboard because I used to wreck shop with her (especially against Melira Pod, I pulled some memorable wins out of my a** with her in that grindfest of a MU). She didn’t stay in my SB long though. She just seems too slow now. I feel like the decks we want to bring her in against already have us up against a wall by the time she’s online and ready to start pinging and jacking critters. She used to be awesome with Lavaman. Now I feel like Lili,tLH fills that role a lot more efficiently. If you find a way to make her work or she ends up just performing really well for you I’d like to hear it, because I love that card.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
This was the overall conclusion that I came to after testing various B/G/x decks after Assassin's Trophy came out. It just feels like everything is a bad matchup now, even the creature-based matchups that were traditionally favorable for us. I ended up moving to Traverse Shadow and then back to Grixis Shadow, which is what I've been playing this year up until the Trophy printing. I would actually play either Shadow deck over one of the other B/G/x decks right now, because they operate similarly but have much higher card efficiency, which lets them keep pace with the faster decks of the format. Grixis, specifically, also has an absurd amount of flexibility in how you build/sideboard/execute it.
It's hard to even say what it is that Jund actually needs at this point. Trophy did so much for the deck's bad matchups and freeing up it's sideboard, but the clunky set of removal it replaced was the most glaring issue in the deck's shell. I really liked Jadine's recent list and how it lowered the overall curve of the deck, but even then it's still a 24 land deck that can't filter its draws. I think that the high land count and inability to really mitigate flooding are what's made grinding with Jund so much harder lately.
I agree, but what would you cut in the list I posted to add a second Fatal Push to the main deck? That was a question I couldn't answer myself.
EDIT: I should say that I did have an answer. It just didn't make sense (Liliana of the Veil).
I guess Pulse, which could be then shifted into the SB, or be in the deck instead of the third Trophy. But I personally am not running it atm. Here is my current list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1428312#paper
EDIT: Ah ok. I would have to cut a Trophy.
Yeah, bro, we are often on the same page here. I felt trampled on.
Maybe I'll hold onto my snapcasters and foil tarns.
I think uw control is a straight up better deck than gbx, but I don't think I have the skill or mental ability to pilot it well.
Jund needs something, I just dont know what. It already has removal. I find myself falling behind in spot removal now, something that wasnt common.
Filtering is becoming a must in modern. The gp proved that ancient stirrings and faithless looting were massive factors in deck building. You cannot afford to draw 4 lands in a row.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
It certanly is a good card, in much the same way that ancient stirings is a good card. It also has some synergies being legendary and enchantment.
That being said the jund deck has far to many dead cards for it. All the discard and removal is bad with it and that is the core of jund. Perhaps if you reworked the deck from the ground up with mox amber, superfriends, oath of liliana and reki, historian of kamigawa you would have enough dencety to use it and also benefit from the legendary status. But the deck would not be jund. And the lack of discard means you have no good awnsers vs combo.
I'm not sure this is on topic for this thread anymore though. This would be a completely difference deck.
Jund needs some good card filtering in it's colors.
I can't state what type of card would turn all this around, but luckily Jund is a popular color.
UW control was a trash deck until this year, with Azcanta, a Jace unban, Teferi and using terminus in conjunction. It can happen to any deck. Whatever the solution is, I don't think it's a top tier removal that's going to push jund over the edge.
I do think the solution is that new cards need to come out, and that it's less about trying to come up with funky ideas suggested here.