I think that confidant is the best turn 2 play the deck has against every deck in the format other than burn and bushwacker zoo.
Other exceptions are if your opponent looks like he is looking to play a grindy game and you have another turn 2 play then you play that first to bait out their removal and play confidant after.
I also think that against most decks mana efficiency/tempo is more important than life. Casting your spells on time will usually save you more life in the end than taking turns off to play it safe. (This is a rule of thumb and not an ALWAYS thing. Magic is too complicated for rules like that)
If you guys are interested, I wrote a guide for building consistant manabases for GBx decks. Here you can see in detail how I do it and what I think about it. Lately people don't pay enough attention to this topic, and manabases are all over the place. If you are interested in being consistant, then I would advice reading this.
Really a good read material for me as a Jund beginner Appreciate for your write-up.
I am agreed on the point that utilization of every single mana to reach the max point of deck's consistency. We should try to play every spell in our hand without leaving any room for unused mana to get value and outgrind opponent as many of our spells are 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and we are able to do so as every turn we able to hit land drop. No matter how, Jund playstyle is winning mtg game by out-value opponent. With present of red with bolt, BBE and command, we can be on fast and on par with other aggro deck compared to BG rock or other blue control decks.
Just some point in my head, we will need to fix our color first, I would know that first few turn would be painful due to fixing the manabase. If the beginning hand is abit risky and painful, do we still play the spell consistently especially against fast deck such as human and hollow one? We know they will have a fast play, do we start with fetch to thoughtseize? or turn 2 still hit dark confident assume there is no other best turn 2 play?
Just want to know your idea and opinion on consistency VS matchup or risky play.
Thanks for your nice words. The consistancy I am tackling in my article is only based on deckbuilding itself. When it comes down to playing, you want early interaction. So in the dark, turn 1 TS is always correct. If you know the matchup, you can evaluate specifically. But usually the turn 1 discard and turn 2 threat is correct.
That’s 18xB, 18xR, and 16xG. So based on Karsten’s model, that should be fine as long as I don’t run any Kitchen Finks right? Is there something I’m not seeing here? I’m trying to figure out a good way to jam in a basic Mountain, and I noticed that in doing so it opened up a way for me to run Treetop. Since we’re not playing Terminate anymore (at least at the moment) the ol’ “best two-land combo” of Swamp + Ravine/Stomping Ground is no longer necessary to cast all our spells. I’m just wondering if I’m missing something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
That’s 18xB, 18xR, and 16xG. So based on Karsten’s model, that should be fine as long as I don’t run any Kitchen Finks right? Is there something I’m not seeing here? I’m trying to figure out a good way to jam in a basic Mountain, and I noticed that in doing so it opened up a way for me to run Treetop. Since we’re not playing Terminate anymore (at least at the moment) the ol’ “best two-land combo” of Swamp + Ravine/Stomping Ground is no longer necessary to cast all our spells. I’m just wondering if I’m missing something.
This manabase is certainly good. If you don't have Finks but do have Anger its a good manabase. Also you have the advantage of running Treetop here and also have the mountain for FoR decks. Overall this manabase is strong vs Control as a 24 landbase. You can find this combination of lands in the article as the last point in the table for Jund.
The classical swamp + stomping ground combo is indeed not that much needed anymore, but note that its still the best combo of 2 lands as you are then able to cast double one mana spells in the form of discard/push + bolt.
This manabase is certainly good. If you don't have Finks but do have Anger its a good manabase. Also you have the advantage of running Treetop here and also have the mountain for FoR decks. Overall this manabase is strong vs Control as a 24 landbase. You can find this combination of lands in the article as the last point in the table for Jund.
The classical swamp + stomping ground combo is indeed not that much needed anymore, but note that its still the best combo of 2 lands as you are then able to cast double one mana spells in the form of discard/push + bolt.
Good point about the discard+bolt. I do in fact run two Anger’s in my SB (they’ve been in there for awhile now, I seldom find myself wanting anything else in those two slots), and currently I’m trying a 4/2 Bolt/Push split, plus a MB Grim Lavamancer. I may end up wanting that third Ravine just because of how badly I want early R, in addition to ensuring discard+bolt.
It’s just something I wanted to try. I’m also running a Lili,tLH main, and I’ve switched from a 1/1 split of KCommand and Pulse to just running two KCommands. I wanted to go heavy on the reach and pinging abilities for all these creature decks (plus Lili,tLH and Lavaman make those Bolts a lot more effective on bigger creatures, or vice versa), and hedge heavily against combo in my side. We’ll just have to see how the Control/Midrange MU’s look after testing more.
Who knows, I may just miss my second Forest too much and switch right back, but I figured it’d be worth a look.
i was high on grim flayer and looting last week and i would like to say that Bob (Dark Confidant) is where we want our 2 drop to be. meta is shifting to where bob is good again. having bob against humans is not bad, because u can still block low to the ground creatures. they only hinderance is spirits where u dont want bob. even it gets u to find your removal, its not worth the life and not even a blocker for flyers.
Humans...does not feel like the easy match it did when the deck first came onto the scene. It didn't help I was drawing more creatures than removal. I kept reasonable hands that contained 2x lands, 1x piece of removal, and a Bob.
A few questions for you guys,
do you always bolt noble hierarch on turn 1? Or do you go for the discard in hopes of taking something like Thalia or a bigger threat?
Are you guys dropping Bob or are you dropping Goyf and hoping to apply that early pressure backed by 1 or 2 removal in hand?
Went up against Tron after him, followed by a bye and called it a night. Had a respectable game against Tron and wasn't stomped, but was still fighting uphill.
Rust is certainly there, but felt clunky. I do wonder how well Jund is positioned between Dredge, Titan decks arising, UW Control and whatnot.
Here is another take on Jund for the GP in Atlanta. I cut the maelstrom pulse to add a second fatal push to lower the curve a little bit allowing for a 24 land build while keeping 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Bloodbraid Elf. I think my mana base follows the rules set forth by FlyingDelver. I do have a couple questions regarding my list.
1) Does Leyline of the Void affect how your mana base is built due to aggressive mulligans and a CMC of 4?
2) Can a 24 land build support a 5 mana planeswalker out of the sideboard?
3) Is my manabase built correctly with the cards I have chosen thus far?
According to what I've read, my mana base doesn't support Kitchen Finks so I've added the 3rd Fulminator Mage since big mana decks did so well at the SCG Open. But now, I have no idea what to run as slots 14 and 15 in the sideboard. Basically I'm trying to keep the mana curve low so as to not overload myself with expensive cards post sideboard with only 24 lands. I find myself being tempted to add more 4 and/or 5 drops. I Need some help here with these last 2 slots. Here is the list for reference.
@SSpeigel, I've also been having trouble with Humans lately. I don't really have my bearings lately with Jund. I'm glad Jadine is crushing with it, but I feel Jund is really weak right now.
I asked this already in a dedicated thread but didn't get that many responses so I figured I might ask people playing the deck directly. Here is the short version of it. Im a returning player who left shorty after the AV/Sword unbannings but now I want to get into Magic again. I am an online only player and I can either get Jund or UW Control but not both. I have already played both decks in the past so I know what Im getting into.
So how do you guys see Jund positioned currently and in the foreseeable future? Is it a good time to get into the deck?
And lastly what happened in the last two years? When I left BG/x decks and Affinity for that matter were pretty much always Tier 1. Other decks came and go but you could also count on those to show up and deliever but that seems to have changed somehow.
Humans...does not feel like the easy match it did when the deck first came onto the scene. It didn't help I was drawing more creatures than removal. I kept reasonable hands that contained 2x lands, 1x piece of removal, and a Bob.
A few questions for you guys,
do you always bolt noble hierarch on turn 1? Or do you go for the discard in hopes of taking something like Thalia or a bigger threat?
Are you guys dropping Bob or are you dropping Goyf and hoping to apply that early pressure backed by 1 or 2 removal in hand?
Went up against Tron after him, followed by a bye and called it a night. Had a respectable game against Tron and wasn't stomped, but was still fighting uphill.
Rust is certainly there, but felt clunky. I do wonder how well Jund is positioned between Dredge, Titan decks arising, UW Control and whatnot.
Humans is definitely not a bye because its a creature based matchup. I shortly tackled the matchup in my manabase article, Humans is strong because it breaks up the traditional definition of an aggro deck in magic. It can disrupt effectively while also be the aggressor. So with this in mind, yeah, you can loose to Humans. Its definitely not easy.
I think if you have a draw which evolves around having many creatures, especially goyf, then it would be a good idea to build up a strong board presence. Bob alone, especially on the draw against them, is rather weak and dangerous, as the pure aggression from them being on the play really makes the lifeloss from Bob matter big time. But when you are on the play, dropping a turn 2 Bob can help to pull a head when you draw a good amount of removal off of him.
I think, overall Jund is okay-ish right now. It can beat the aggressive decks if you arent too greedy in your deckbuilding and make small hedges agaisnt those matchups. I really think making hedges in the manabase is also a good way to fight that, according to my article. It can also win against Tron. Last week I went 5-0 beating Spirits 2 times, Tron, Storm and Jeskai Control. I didnt have an uphill battle once actually, it always felt on partiy. But of course this is just a miser tournament, not meaning much.
I am still figuring out what version is better against aggro overall, Jund with the better removal spells but with the more painful manabase, or Rock with the weaker removals but with painfree manabase. Also Rock has a good game agaisnt Tron through FoR, but Jund has the reach. It all feels almost identical to me. But its tough to decide which version to run I think.
Here is another take on Jund for the GP in Atlanta. I cut the maelstrom pulse to add a second fatal push to lower the curve a little bit allowing for a 24 land build while keeping 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Bloodbraid Elf. I think my mana base follows the rules set forth by FlyingDelver. I do have a couple questions regarding my list.
1) Does Leyline of the Void affect how your mana base is built due to aggressive mulligans and a CMC of 4?
2) Can a 24 land build support a 5 mana planeswalker out of the sideboard?
3) Is my manabase built correctly with the cards I have chosen thus far?
According to what I've read, my mana base doesn't support Kitchen Finks so I've added the 3rd Fulminator Mage since big mana decks did so well at the SCG Open. But now, I have no idea what to run as slots 14 and 15 in the sideboard. Basically I'm trying to keep the mana curve low so as to not overload myself with expensive cards post sideboard with only 24 lands. I find myself being tempted to add more 4 and/or 5 drops. I Need some help here with these last 2 slots. Here is the list for reference.
1) Leyline should not effect the way you build a manabase. Its a sideboard card and the way you want to play it is to drop in on turn 0. The only aspect which could matter is the difference of mulligans of a 24 and a 25 landbase. But I think the difference is not that big.
2) It can, for the simple reason that you want the PW against midrange and Control matchups mostly. Those games are naturally long lasting, and in both types of matchups there is either Path and/or Trophy present, which also help you to cast her. Having 1 five mana walker in the board is not that big of a deal for that reason.
3) I count 18 black sources and 18 red sources for Lilis and Angers, which are the highest requirements you have. Seems perfectly fine. I noticed you chose the Mountain + Twilight Mire combo, which is essentially the best build for aggro matchups as its as painfree as it gets while still being as consistant as possible.
Concerning your last 2 slots, you should add something for the mirror for sure. Right now you only have 3 Fulminators to bring in. I would play something like Kalitas, PKN, Huntmaster or Nissa and a second Liliana, the Last Hope probably. But note this all depends on your meta and what you expect!
I asked this already in a dedicated thread but didn't get that many responses so I figured I might ask people playing the deck directly. Here is the short version of it. Im a returning player who left shorty after the AV/Sword unbannings but now I want to get into Magic again. I am an online only player and I can either get Jund or UW Control but not both. I have already played both decks in the past so I know what Im getting into.
So how do you guys see Jund positioned currently and in the foreseeable future? Is it a good time to get into the deck?
And lastly what happened in the last two years? When I left BG/x decks and Affinity for that matter were pretty much always Tier 1. Other decks came and go but you could also count on those to show up and deliever but that seems to have changed somehow.
So, the short story of Jund is this:
Gitaxian Probe was banned (destroying Infect, one of the best matchups for Jund back then) and Fatal Push was introduced. Tarmogoyf got incredibly weak after that as Push was amazing against us. Push was such a warping card that people were only successful by playing strategies that dodged it. Jund was not good against those strategies and as Push was also good agaisnt Jund it went down. BBE unban came and Jund got some hype, leading to false interpretations of the decks strength. It remained Tier 2 despite being popular. Also the BBE unban completely destroyed the standard for a good Jund build imo. People pretty much always played greedy versions then. However, we are right now again either in a hype period due to trophy or are really getting stronger. I am personally not sure. I can honestly say, UW Control would be the overall more stable choice right now. But if you enjoy the deck, there is nothing wrong in playing it. I think you can certainly do well.
It's unfortunate to hear but that honesty is valuable. Hype can often be a negative thing.
I thought of Fatal Push as a tool for Jund but I didn't think about that it is also pretty good against Jund. Jund certainly often enables Revolt for the opponent.
Can you also clarify what you mean with how BBE destroyed the standard for a good Jund build? You mean in the sense of upping the mana curve?
buy into UW. Jund honestly has been kinda lacking for over a year.
The moment Gitaxian Probe was banned, this deck really fell down hard. Infect and Twin sorta made Jund a police deck. Fatal Push hurt cards like Goyf, Siege Rhino, and had the meta look into big threats not hit by push.
Jund ran hot for a little after BBE was unbanned, but the meta adjusted very fast. It took modern almost a year to adjust to Shadow and nearly push shadow decks out of modern.
UW, which totally plays differently, kinda has Jace, Teferi and Terminus now. I think that's where you want to be.
The thing is owning Jund and UW are great, you basically get to play everything in modern that isn't a tribal or pure combo deck.
I have Jund foiled out...but the deck has been wavering between tier 2 and tier 3 for 2 years now, Trophy isn't changing that. Jund's shares will dip. It's going to take 2 or 3 major Golgari cards to bring Jund to prevalence. And the truth is, being so soft to big mana decks has been difficult in modern.
As for what he meant about a good standard build, there used to be a very huge consensus on what Jund decks looked like. It was decidedly 24 lands, X amount of man-lands, 4x LOTV, 4x Bobs...Jund basically looked identical from list to list except the sideboard and your options of Kalitas/Huntmaster/Olivia.
Now, BBE made people unsure about a 24 or 25 land base, 3 or 4 BBE, 3 or 4 Bobs, 3 or 4 LOTV. The Jund list used to be pretty decided on.
Played a 4-round tourney with my new list and went 4-0.
Round 1: URThing in the Ice 2-0
This was pretty easy. My removal lined up well and that was that. Not much to say here, except Lili and Bob together are good. Who’d a thought?
Round 2: Dredge* 2-1
Game-one felt pretty rough. Scooze held his own but kept dying to Conflagrate. Games two and three felt unlosable. There’s just too much hate in my SB for this MU, and what’s nice is a lot of it is simply incidental. It feels mean having grave hate but saving it because you know you’re about to exile all their good s*** anyway with an Anger.
Round 3: Bogles 2-1
This one didn’t feel great, but I found my Ass-Trophies when I needed to get rid of Leylines and managed to keep drawing my Lilianas. My list doesn’t feel too terribly well suited for this MU, but Trophy makes it waaaaay better (if you can find it) than it would be otherwise.
Round 4: Hardened Scales 2-0
All my removal lined up really well here. I never didn’t have it.
Thoughts: If it has creatures (without hexproof), I’m $$$. I really liked my removal suite. Bob felt better than ever, especially with my lower curve. I’m worried about Control and Midrange. I still need to see how I’ll fare in those MU’s. My SB isn’t that well suited for them, and honestly I’m not that tight of a player, so I’m skeptical. I think Combo is probably in the bag. I still need to assess the big mana MU’s. I feel confident about them, but maybe I shouldn’t be. Oh, and I will probably go back to 3x Ravines. I just don’t think it’s worth it on the Treetop. Still undecided on this basic mountain.
It's unfortunate to hear but that honesty is valuable. Hype can often be a negative thing.
I thought of Fatal Push as a tool for Jund but I didn't think about that it is also pretty good against Jund. Jund certainly often enables Revolt for the opponent.
Can you also clarify what you mean with how BBE destroyed the standard for a good Jund build? You mean in the sense of upping the mana curve?
Before Probe was unbanned, we had a pretty good set of rules everybody followed and understood. We always ran 24 lands, maximum 3 manlands, and 1-2 four drops to go with it as topenders. And this rules ensured a consistant positive performance for the deck.
With BBE being unbanned, obviously people started to jam the card as a 4 of. And rightfully so, this would mean adding another land is a nobrainer. Coming from 1-2 max four drops, you actually need a 25 land if you now have suddenly 4 four drops in your deck. In order to prevent flooding, that 25th land naturally was a 4th manland. All up to this point makese sense. However, people are naturally very greedy in deckbuilding (according to my epxerience) and people really like to skimp on lands since people always hate flooding more than screwing. So people decided to cut a land again here and there, and the problem was, they did not cut the 4th manland which was added, and just kept the 4 manlands. They just cut something else, because manlands are great right? Now, bad performance should now punish you, but the problem is, many people did this, and due to variance even with a greedy manabase you can of course win tournaments and perform well. This is simple statistics. And when those greedy lists started to pop up, people felt confirmed in their deckbuilding of course. Results say everything as we know (sarcasm). And when many people do similar things, it slowly starts to become the norm. In the past, it was never even possible to post a list with 4 four drops and only 24 lands to this forum and not get criticized about the manabase. Now its just normal. The interesting part about this is, modern as a format was way less punishing in the past. Nowadays though decks are more linear, more consistant and more punishing overall. But people still have more greedy manabases. So I guess you get the point, its completely twisted.
So up to this point, we need more definition about greedyness. Therefore I am spending a lot of time on this topic, and my goal is to bring people back on track. Thats why I write articles, address problems with manabases and the mana curve mainly. Its just the funamental part of each deck and when other decks are so consistant, we need to keep with that in order to perform well. Thats my opinion on that.
When I look on mtgtop8 at the jund decks that got into a top 8 in the past two weeks the average landbase is 24, bloodbraid count is 4 and average 7drop count is 8. Sure this is all on average, but im seeing a lot of jund decks getting away with greed. Jadines did run 24 lands last weekend but only 3 BBE and 7 3drops, but still does the 1 less BBE not make here list greedy? I guess it doesnt, but then why is everyone else advocating for 25 lands? I want to run less lands and more cards too. #thirdworldproblems
What do you guys think about Ancient Grudge? I saw plenty of lists without it and after some thinking I came to the conclusion that it's not very good right now. There's no (standard) Affinity, Hardened Scales Affinity and Lantern which makes Ancient Grudge a lot worse (since these are decks Grudge is the best Against) but I'm not sure about that.
In case I cut Ancient Grudge what could I bring in instead of it?
Side note: I play 1x Nihil Spellbomb in the md (that's why only 1 in the sb).
Another matchup that Ancient Grudge is tron if you have / expect tron player in your store. It can kill Wurmcoil Engine, flashback it again to kill the deathtouch wurm token to let your creature continue to hit them. Without that card, we are really a dead meat when they hit turn 3 tronland and follow by wurmcoil engine.
But man, now that you mention it, you’ve got me thinking about cutting one of my Grudges. I dunno about cutting it completely in your case. Having none at all feels wrong. But I’m not so sure I need both of them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
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Other exceptions are if your opponent looks like he is looking to play a grindy game and you have another turn 2 play then you play that first to bait out their removal and play confidant after.
I also think that against most decks mana efficiency/tempo is more important than life. Casting your spells on time will usually save you more life in the end than taking turns off to play it safe. (This is a rule of thumb and not an ALWAYS thing. Magic is too complicated for rules like that)
Thanks for your nice words. The consistancy I am tackling in my article is only based on deckbuilding itself. When it comes down to playing, you want early interaction. So in the dark, turn 1 TS is always correct. If you know the matchup, you can evaluate specifically. But usually the turn 1 discard and turn 2 threat is correct.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Raging Ravine
1x Treetop Village
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
That’s 18xB, 18xR, and 16xG. So based on Karsten’s model, that should be fine as long as I don’t run any Kitchen Finks right? Is there something I’m not seeing here? I’m trying to figure out a good way to jam in a basic Mountain, and I noticed that in doing so it opened up a way for me to run Treetop. Since we’re not playing Terminate anymore (at least at the moment) the ol’ “best two-land combo” of Swamp + Ravine/Stomping Ground is no longer necessary to cast all our spells. I’m just wondering if I’m missing something.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
This manabase is certainly good. If you don't have Finks but do have Anger its a good manabase. Also you have the advantage of running Treetop here and also have the mountain for FoR decks. Overall this manabase is strong vs Control as a 24 landbase. You can find this combination of lands in the article as the last point in the table for Jund.
The classical swamp + stomping ground combo is indeed not that much needed anymore, but note that its still the best combo of 2 lands as you are then able to cast double one mana spells in the form of discard/push + bolt.
Good point about the discard+bolt. I do in fact run two Anger’s in my SB (they’ve been in there for awhile now, I seldom find myself wanting anything else in those two slots), and currently I’m trying a 4/2 Bolt/Push split, plus a MB Grim Lavamancer. I may end up wanting that third Ravine just because of how badly I want early R, in addition to ensuring discard+bolt.
It’s just something I wanted to try. I’m also running a Lili,tLH main, and I’ve switched from a 1/1 split of KCommand and Pulse to just running two KCommands. I wanted to go heavy on the reach and pinging abilities for all these creature decks (plus Lili,tLH and Lavaman make those Bolts a lot more effective on bigger creatures, or vice versa), and hedge heavily against combo in my side. We’ll just have to see how the Control/Midrange MU’s look after testing more.
Who knows, I may just miss my second Forest too much and switch right back, but I figured it’d be worth a look.
Here’s the list for reference:
3x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grim Lavamancer
Instants(11)
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Fatal Push
3x Assassin’s Trophy
2x Kolaghan’s Commanf
Sorceries(6)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers(4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Raging Ravine
1x Treetop Village
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Damnation
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Damping Sphere
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Humans...does not feel like the easy match it did when the deck first came onto the scene. It didn't help I was drawing more creatures than removal. I kept reasonable hands that contained 2x lands, 1x piece of removal, and a Bob.
A few questions for you guys,
do you always bolt noble hierarch on turn 1? Or do you go for the discard in hopes of taking something like Thalia or a bigger threat?
Are you guys dropping Bob or are you dropping Goyf and hoping to apply that early pressure backed by 1 or 2 removal in hand?
Went up against Tron after him, followed by a bye and called it a night. Had a respectable game against Tron and wasn't stomped, but was still fighting uphill.
Rust is certainly there, but felt clunky. I do wonder how well Jund is positioned between Dredge, Titan decks arising, UW Control and whatnot.
1) Does Leyline of the Void affect how your mana base is built due to aggressive mulligans and a CMC of 4?
2) Can a 24 land build support a 5 mana planeswalker out of the sideboard?
3) Is my manabase built correctly with the cards I have chosen thus far?
According to what I've read, my mana base doesn't support Kitchen Finks so I've added the 3rd Fulminator Mage since big mana decks did so well at the SCG Open. But now, I have no idea what to run as slots 14 and 15 in the sideboard. Basically I'm trying to keep the mana curve low so as to not overload myself with expensive cards post sideboard with only 24 lands. I find myself being tempted to add more 4 and/or 5 drops. I Need some help here with these last 2 slots. Here is the list for reference.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Twilight Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells 17
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
I asked this already in a dedicated thread but didn't get that many responses so I figured I might ask people playing the deck directly. Here is the short version of it. Im a returning player who left shorty after the AV/Sword unbannings but now I want to get into Magic again. I am an online only player and I can either get Jund or UW Control but not both. I have already played both decks in the past so I know what Im getting into.
So how do you guys see Jund positioned currently and in the foreseeable future? Is it a good time to get into the deck?
And lastly what happened in the last two years? When I left BG/x decks and Affinity for that matter were pretty much always Tier 1. Other decks came and go but you could also count on those to show up and deliever but that seems to have changed somehow.
Humans is definitely not a bye because its a creature based matchup. I shortly tackled the matchup in my manabase article, Humans is strong because it breaks up the traditional definition of an aggro deck in magic. It can disrupt effectively while also be the aggressor. So with this in mind, yeah, you can loose to Humans. Its definitely not easy.
I think if you have a draw which evolves around having many creatures, especially goyf, then it would be a good idea to build up a strong board presence. Bob alone, especially on the draw against them, is rather weak and dangerous, as the pure aggression from them being on the play really makes the lifeloss from Bob matter big time. But when you are on the play, dropping a turn 2 Bob can help to pull a head when you draw a good amount of removal off of him.
I think, overall Jund is okay-ish right now. It can beat the aggressive decks if you arent too greedy in your deckbuilding and make small hedges agaisnt those matchups. I really think making hedges in the manabase is also a good way to fight that, according to my article. It can also win against Tron. Last week I went 5-0 beating Spirits 2 times, Tron, Storm and Jeskai Control. I didnt have an uphill battle once actually, it always felt on partiy. But of course this is just a miser tournament, not meaning much.
Here is the decklist in any case:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidantr
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Noncreature Spells [21]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lighting Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Collective Brutality
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Damnation
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I am still figuring out what version is better against aggro overall, Jund with the better removal spells but with the more painful manabase, or Rock with the weaker removals but with painfree manabase. Also Rock has a good game agaisnt Tron through FoR, but Jund has the reach. It all feels almost identical to me. But its tough to decide which version to run I think.
On your questions:
1) Leyline should not effect the way you build a manabase. Its a sideboard card and the way you want to play it is to drop in on turn 0. The only aspect which could matter is the difference of mulligans of a 24 and a 25 landbase. But I think the difference is not that big.
2) It can, for the simple reason that you want the PW against midrange and Control matchups mostly. Those games are naturally long lasting, and in both types of matchups there is either Path and/or Trophy present, which also help you to cast her. Having 1 five mana walker in the board is not that big of a deal for that reason.
3) I count 18 black sources and 18 red sources for Lilis and Angers, which are the highest requirements you have. Seems perfectly fine. I noticed you chose the Mountain + Twilight Mire combo, which is essentially the best build for aggro matchups as its as painfree as it gets while still being as consistant as possible.
Concerning your last 2 slots, you should add something for the mirror for sure. Right now you only have 3 Fulminators to bring in. I would play something like Kalitas, PKN, Huntmaster or Nissa and a second Liliana, the Last Hope probably. But note this all depends on your meta and what you expect!
So, the short story of Jund is this:
Gitaxian Probe was banned (destroying Infect, one of the best matchups for Jund back then) and Fatal Push was introduced. Tarmogoyf got incredibly weak after that as Push was amazing against us. Push was such a warping card that people were only successful by playing strategies that dodged it. Jund was not good against those strategies and as Push was also good agaisnt Jund it went down. BBE unban came and Jund got some hype, leading to false interpretations of the decks strength. It remained Tier 2 despite being popular. Also the BBE unban completely destroyed the standard for a good Jund build imo. People pretty much always played greedy versions then. However, we are right now again either in a hype period due to trophy or are really getting stronger. I am personally not sure. I can honestly say, UW Control would be the overall more stable choice right now. But if you enjoy the deck, there is nothing wrong in playing it. I think you can certainly do well.
It's unfortunate to hear but that honesty is valuable. Hype can often be a negative thing.
I thought of Fatal Push as a tool for Jund but I didn't think about that it is also pretty good against Jund. Jund certainly often enables Revolt for the opponent.
Can you also clarify what you mean with how BBE destroyed the standard for a good Jund build? You mean in the sense of upping the mana curve?
buy into UW. Jund honestly has been kinda lacking for over a year.
The moment Gitaxian Probe was banned, this deck really fell down hard. Infect and Twin sorta made Jund a police deck. Fatal Push hurt cards like Goyf, Siege Rhino, and had the meta look into big threats not hit by push.
Jund ran hot for a little after BBE was unbanned, but the meta adjusted very fast. It took modern almost a year to adjust to Shadow and nearly push shadow decks out of modern.
UW, which totally plays differently, kinda has Jace, Teferi and Terminus now. I think that's where you want to be.
The thing is owning Jund and UW are great, you basically get to play everything in modern that isn't a tribal or pure combo deck.
I have Jund foiled out...but the deck has been wavering between tier 2 and tier 3 for 2 years now, Trophy isn't changing that. Jund's shares will dip. It's going to take 2 or 3 major Golgari cards to bring Jund to prevalence. And the truth is, being so soft to big mana decks has been difficult in modern.
As for what he meant about a good standard build, there used to be a very huge consensus on what Jund decks looked like. It was decidedly 24 lands, X amount of man-lands, 4x LOTV, 4x Bobs...Jund basically looked identical from list to list except the sideboard and your options of Kalitas/Huntmaster/Olivia.
Now, BBE made people unsure about a 24 or 25 land base, 3 or 4 BBE, 3 or 4 Bobs, 3 or 4 LOTV. The Jund list used to be pretty decided on.
UW has that issue, too though.
Played a 4-round tourney with my new list and went 4-0.
Round 1: URThing in the Ice 2-0
This was pretty easy. My removal lined up well and that was that. Not much to say here, except Lili and Bob together are good. Who’d a thought?
Round 2: Dredge* 2-1
Game-one felt pretty rough. Scooze held his own but kept dying to Conflagrate. Games two and three felt unlosable. There’s just too much hate in my SB for this MU, and what’s nice is a lot of it is simply incidental. It feels mean having grave hate but saving it because you know you’re about to exile all their good s*** anyway with an Anger.
Round 3: Bogles 2-1
This one didn’t feel great, but I found my Ass-Trophies when I needed to get rid of Leylines and managed to keep drawing my Lilianas. My list doesn’t feel too terribly well suited for this MU, but Trophy makes it waaaaay better (if you can find it) than it would be otherwise.
Round 4: Hardened Scales 2-0
All my removal lined up really well here. I never didn’t have it.
Thoughts: If it has creatures (without hexproof), I’m $$$. I really liked my removal suite. Bob felt better than ever, especially with my lower curve. I’m worried about Control and Midrange. I still need to see how I’ll fare in those MU’s. My SB isn’t that well suited for them, and honestly I’m not that tight of a player, so I’m skeptical. I think Combo is probably in the bag. I still need to assess the big mana MU’s. I feel confident about them, but maybe I shouldn’t be. Oh, and I will probably go back to 3x Ravines. I just don’t think it’s worth it on the Treetop. Still undecided on this basic mountain.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Before Probe was unbanned, we had a pretty good set of rules everybody followed and understood. We always ran 24 lands, maximum 3 manlands, and 1-2 four drops to go with it as topenders. And this rules ensured a consistant positive performance for the deck.
With BBE being unbanned, obviously people started to jam the card as a 4 of. And rightfully so, this would mean adding another land is a nobrainer. Coming from 1-2 max four drops, you actually need a 25 land if you now have suddenly 4 four drops in your deck. In order to prevent flooding, that 25th land naturally was a 4th manland. All up to this point makese sense. However, people are naturally very greedy in deckbuilding (according to my epxerience) and people really like to skimp on lands since people always hate flooding more than screwing. So people decided to cut a land again here and there, and the problem was, they did not cut the 4th manland which was added, and just kept the 4 manlands. They just cut something else, because manlands are great right? Now, bad performance should now punish you, but the problem is, many people did this, and due to variance even with a greedy manabase you can of course win tournaments and perform well. This is simple statistics. And when those greedy lists started to pop up, people felt confirmed in their deckbuilding of course. Results say everything as we know (sarcasm). And when many people do similar things, it slowly starts to become the norm. In the past, it was never even possible to post a list with 4 four drops and only 24 lands to this forum and not get criticized about the manabase. Now its just normal. The interesting part about this is, modern as a format was way less punishing in the past. Nowadays though decks are more linear, more consistant and more punishing overall. But people still have more greedy manabases. So I guess you get the point, its completely twisted.
So up to this point, we need more definition about greedyness. Therefore I am spending a lot of time on this topic, and my goal is to bring people back on track. Thats why I write articles, address problems with manabases and the mana curve mainly. Its just the funamental part of each deck and when other decks are so consistant, we need to keep with that in order to perform well. Thats my opinion on that.
Another matchup that Ancient Grudge is tron if you have / expect tron player in your store. It can kill Wurmcoil Engine, flashback it again to kill the deathtouch wurm token to let your creature continue to hit them. Without that card, we are really a dead meat when they hit turn 3 tronland and follow by wurmcoil engine.
But man, now that you mention it, you’ve got me thinking about cutting one of my Grudges. I dunno about cutting it completely in your case. Having none at all feels wrong. But I’m not so sure I need both of them.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB