Never thought about Harsh Mentor as Tron hate but it definitely makes sense. I guess it technically doubles as Affinity hate as well since their main win-con is 100 Ravenger activations onto one unblocked creature.
I'll probably try it out in the coming weeks.
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"The worst part isn't the pain, or the smell, or even the fear of death. It's hearing the clatter of bone on stone and knowing the bones are yours."BRG
My current list contains 24 lands, 3 of them are basics (2 swamps, 1 forest). Now I have the feeling that more often than not I am in need of an untapped, painless red source in turn 2 or 3. My meta is full of Revolt Zoo, Burn and some weird Naya Human lists, against which a Bolt, Terminate or K-Command are helpful when not needing to shock myself for it in the very first turns.
Is it totally unreasonable to include a Basic Mountain (instead of the Twilight Mire), as I don´t see it mentioned in the primer or used in any other lists from tournaments?
My current list contains 24 lands, 3 of them are basics (2 swamps, 1 forest). Now I have the feeling that more often than not I am in need of an untapped, painless red source in turn 2 or 3. My meta is full of Revolt Zoo, Burn and some weird Naya Human lists, against which a Bolt, Terminate or K-Command are helpful when not needing to shock myself for it in the very first turns.
Is it totally unreasonable to include a Basic Mountain (instead of the Twilight Mire), as I don´t see it mentioned in the primer or used in any other lists from tournaments?
Commonly you would see online lists run the basic Mountain with the expectation that they would be playing against more burn and aggro decks. But if you're running Push instead of Bolt then you don't really need the mountain.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
My current list contains 24 lands, 3 of them are basics (2 swamps, 1 forest). Now I have the feeling that more often than not I am in need of an untapped, painless red source in turn 2 or 3. My meta is full of Revolt Zoo, Burn and some weird Naya Human lists, against which a Bolt, Terminate or K-Command are helpful when not needing to shock myself for it in the very first turns.
Is it totally unreasonable to include a Basic Mountain (instead of the Twilight Mire), as I don´t see it mentioned in the primer or used in any other lists from tournaments?
Why don't you run Pushes instead? This helps very much for preserving life totals as you are now even able to fetch for a basic swamp turn 1 in order to cast IOK/TS and have still mana for push next turn. Otherwise, I think it is not worth it still. A mountain is so bad in this deck, it has high mana requirements which mostly are in black and green, for which reason I wouldn't do it personally. But if you want to try it and experiment, then go ahead. It has been done in the past to play a basic mountain, but not frequently. It did pop up though.
@Harsh Mentor: If it did hit planeswalker activations as well, then I think Harsh Mentor would be really considerable. But as it is I doubt it will improve our Tron Matchup. It is good against Affinity, Lantern and Bant Eldrazi though, which is nice, but still not the most problematic matchups for us. I did mention that in the post I talked about Harsh Mentor earlier as well. So I doubt it will see play in Jund, but who knows.
My current list contains 24 lands, 3 of them are basics (2 swamps, 1 forest). Now I have the feeling that more often than not I am in need of an untapped, painless red source in turn 2 or 3. My meta is full of Revolt Zoo, Burn and some weird Naya Human lists, against which a Bolt, Terminate or K-Command are helpful when not needing to shock myself for it in the very first turns.
Is it totally unreasonable to include a Basic Mountain (instead of the Twilight Mire), as I don´t see it mentioned in the primer or used in any other lists from tournaments?
Why don't you run Pushes instead? This helps very much for preserving life totals as you are now even able to fetch for a basic swamp turn 1 in order to cast IOK/TS and have still mana for push next turn. Otherwise, I think it is not worth it still. A mountain is so bad in this deck, it has high mana requirements which mostly are in black and green, for which reason I wouldn't do it personally. But if you want to try it and experiment, then go ahead. It has been done in the past to play a basic mountain, but not frequently. It did pop up though.
I actually run Push. My current list contains 3 Pushes and 2 Bolts.
Yes, I see your point, and it is obvious that the deck requires black and green mana much more than red, but there are some situations in which a mountain could be useful. I dont´t like fetching for a basic swamp in turn 1 (exception would be if I had Overgrown Tomb or Ravine already in hand, but even then I prefer a Crypt/2nd Tomb), because there is usually both black and/or green mana needed in turn 2. So the second fetchland is sacrificed for either a Crypt or a Stomping Ground, which costs me again 2 points of life. It basically comes to turn 3, when I believe fetching for a Mountain is useful. That´s the turn I usually need all 3 lands untapped; either for K-Command, 2-mana Creature + 1-mana spell or Terminate/Decay + 1-mana spell.
Of course there is a chance you have a Ravine/Cliffs in your opening hand and my argumentation makes no sense, but fetching for Tomb + either Forest or Swamp and Mountain in the 3rd turn can save you up to 4 life, which is a relevant number against aggressive decks. I am aware that there are hundreds of differents situations and fetching for a Mountain might not often make sense, I just wanted to express my thoughts, as it is something that comes to my mind when playing against aggressive decks. Of course a 4th basic has other advantages (several Paths, Ghostquarters or Fulminator Mages), but I feel the main reason why I would want to try the Mountain is because there is a chance I might save a couple points of life against fast decks that try to punish Jund´s greedy manabase.
Good Morning mates (at least in Brazil), I'm having problems with my list lately. I can't find my mojo again and I'm losing several matchs that I were supposed to win or have a good match against it.
Could you guys analyze the following 74. I'm 1 card short because I'm not sure about what to include.
@Harsh Mentor: If it did hit planeswalker activations as well, then I think Harsh Mentor would be really considerable. But as it is I doubt it will improve our Tron Matchup. It is good against Affinity, Lantern and Bant Eldrazi though, which is nice, but still not the most problematic matchups for us. I did mention that in the post I talked about Harsh Mentor earlier as well. So I doubt it will see play in Jund, but who knows.
I agree. Personally I wish it included triggered abilities too, but that might have made it too strong.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Good Morning mates (at least in Brazil), I'm having problems with my list lately. I can't find my mojo again and I'm losing several matchs that I were supposed to win or have a good match against it.
Could you guys analyze the following 74. I'm 1 card short because I'm not sure about what to include.
I noticed in your list you have a lot of brutalities. I used to have 2 but cut down to 1. I haven't faced a lot of burn in testing so far, so maybe the number will go back up, but 3 feels like a lot. Huntmaster is a card I love, but only seems to do work like 33% of the time when I play him. I have put olivia mainboard because with the decrease in number of bolts in modern, she is a pretty scary 3/3 flier. She blocks skyspawners all day, picks off dorks and lets you steal some creatures from time to time. I like just having the ability to have some play in the air available in the main. I put batterskull in the board just because against it is an awesome card. Thundermaw is a nod to the tons of spirits that are seeing play these days, and it is basically a 5 cmc, do 5 damage card, so against death's shadow and abzan I figure it is solid choice. As mentioned above I would like to try harsh mentor's out, but not sure where I will put them.
My last thought is I would consider grafdigger's cage over spell bomb. If you track MTGGoldFish at all, you will see dredge is poised to take the crown from DS aggro as having the most success in modern (MTGO and paper combined). Dredge was #1 last night, but they appear to have flipped again. Spell bomb is good for clearing the yard for a KoTR, or for keeping delve down, but Lingering souls is being played a lot, control strats with snaps are coming back and storm is a thing now too. Cage shuts down all of those strats pretty effectively. Otherwise I would consider Leylines, but that is my personal preference.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Good Morning mates (at least in Brazil), I'm having problems with my list lately. I can't find my mojo again and I'm losing several matchs that I were supposed to win or have a good match against it.
Could you guys analyze the following 74. I'm 1 card short because I'm not sure about what to include.
I noticed in your list you have a lot of brutalities. I used to have 2 but cut down to 1. I haven't faced a lot of burn in testing so far, so maybe the number will go back up, but 3 feels like a lot. Huntmaster is a card I love, but only seems to do work like 33% of the time when I play him. I have put olivia mainboard because with the decrease in number of bolts in modern, she is a pretty scary 3/3 flier. She blocks skyspawners all day, picks off dorks and lets you steal some creatures from time to time. I like just having the ability to have some play in the air available in the main. I put batterskull in the board just because against it is an awesome card. Thundermaw is a nod to the tons of spirits that are seeing play these days, and it is basically a 5 cmc, do 5 damage card, so against death's shadow and abzan I figure it is solid choice. As mentioned above I would like to try harsh mentor's out, but not sure where I will put them.
My last thought is I would consider grafdigger's cage over spell bomb. If you track MTGGoldFish at all, you will see dredge is poised to take the crown from DS aggro as having the most success in modern (MTGO and paper combined). Dredge was #1 last night, but they appear to have flipped again. Spell bomb is good for clearing the yard for a KoTR, or for keeping delve down, but Lingering souls is being played a lot, control strats with snaps are coming back and storm is a thing now too. Cage shuts down all of those strats pretty effectively. Otherwise I would consider Leylines, but that is my personal preference.
tks for your feedback.
I've decided to go with 3 brutalities, as my main burn and hyper agressive decks hates of choice.. Lately Kitchen Finks has been pretty poor for me, that's why I'm playing 3 CBs. I'll revisit that choice this weak though.
Huntmaster is another card that I'm not 100% confident about. I have the felling that he's great or awful, there's not a term in between. And that's why i choose the split with Kalitas and I'm also playing 1 Olivia on my board.
Probably I'm going to switch those nihil with the cages and add a second Surgical, and go with that as grave hate.
I think we have enough things vs dredge in form of scooze, NoSB, Anger...but then again, I'm not completely sure about wether graffdigger's or spellbomb is better. They both have good sides, spellbomb mainly in drawing a card and putting an artifact into grave.
Against snap matchups, scavenging ooze does enough most of the time and they usually want to remove goyfs or 4drops.
Also, I have a general question, I've been lurking for a long time on all the salvation jund threads and I just don't know, why almost nobody is running 2 basic forests? I find this very helpful, when I try to conserve my life total. It feels good dropping down a finks or ooze vs burn without fetching for a shock at all.
I tend to run 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Mountain. Not having to always shock to cast red cards is handy.
I think we have enough things vs dredge in form of scooze, NoSB, Anger...but then again, I'm not completely sure about wether graffdigger's or spellbomb is better. They both have good sides, spellbomb mainly in drawing a card and putting an artifact into grave.
Against snap matchups, scavenging ooze does enough most of the time and they usually want to remove goyfs or 4drops.
Also, I have a general question, I've been lurking for a long time on all the salvation jund threads and I just don't know, why almost nobody is running 2 basic forests? I find this very helpful, when I try to conserve my life total. It feels good dropping down a finks or ooze vs burn without fetching for a shock at all.
I tend to run 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Mountain. Not having to always shock to cast red cards is handy.
I feel that the full playset of Lightning Bolt is a mistake nowadays. I rather play with 3 pushes and 2 bolt then 4 bolts. I'm not cutting them all together for now because it can hit a few creatures and PWs, also the reach can be good sometimes.
With that in mind, the extra red source won't be that necessary on the first 3 turns.
Basilisk Collar is a great card. I think the Olivia thing might be too cute, but a collar certainly makes bob a lot better and it will probably be unexpected. I think the biggest problem is finding space in the 75.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Also, I have a general question, I've been lurking for a long time on all the salvation jund threads and I just don't know, why almost nobody is running 2 basic forests? I find this very helpful, when I try to conserve my life total. It feels good dropping down a finks or ooze vs burn without fetching for a shock at all.
You can if you want. Having 2 swamps is mandatory though so you can play it instead of twilight Mire. Mire can't be fetched but the advantage is that you can have more green sources with it in order fuel ooze for example. If you face a lot of burn or Blood Moon then it is a good idea to run more basics.
Iv been having alot of trouble with skred red lately. One guy at my Lgs only plays skred he's pretty solid pilot with the deck. Surprisingly its not blood moon that has been getting me it's the planes walker chandra torch of defiance and koth of the hammer. I'm thinking of playing some pithing needels in my sb, I already play a copy of dead bore over one terminate in my main dexk so I can try and get walkers. Any one else have trouble with skred?.
Iv been having alot of trouble with skred red lately. One guy at my Lgs only plays skred he's pretty solid pilot with the deck. Surprisingly its not blood moon that has been getting me it's the planes walker chandra torch of defiance and koth of the hammer. I'm thinking of playing some pithing needels in my sb, I already play a copy of dead bore over one terminate in my main dexk so I can try and get walkers. Any one else have trouble with skred?.
Skred is designed to crush midrange, so unfortunately I fear there is not much you can do about that. Sure, Needles and Pulses and stuff can work, but this deck is so brutal. If you face it too often, then its the same like Tron, the best thing you can do is playing a different deck.
Blood Moon can be a instant lock against some match ups and will make the opp to play around it every game.
I've played with blue moon right after twin got banned, and it were a blast shutting the opp off.
Discard + threat (bob or goyf) plus blood moon it's a great start against almost every deck, and with 4 swamps and 3 forests, the deck can perform greatly with a online moon.
I'll probably try it out in the coming weeks.
With less lightning bolt around, I have started to run Olivia with some good success. Picking off tokens and stealing drowners/DS/Goyf's feels good.
Is it totally unreasonable to include a Basic Mountain (instead of the Twilight Mire), as I don´t see it mentioned in the primer or used in any other lists from tournaments?
Why don't you run Pushes instead? This helps very much for preserving life totals as you are now even able to fetch for a basic swamp turn 1 in order to cast IOK/TS and have still mana for push next turn. Otherwise, I think it is not worth it still. A mountain is so bad in this deck, it has high mana requirements which mostly are in black and green, for which reason I wouldn't do it personally. But if you want to try it and experiment, then go ahead. It has been done in the past to play a basic mountain, but not frequently. It did pop up though.
@Harsh Mentor: If it did hit planeswalker activations as well, then I think Harsh Mentor would be really considerable. But as it is I doubt it will improve our Tron Matchup. It is good against Affinity, Lantern and Bant Eldrazi though, which is nice, but still not the most problematic matchups for us. I did mention that in the post I talked about Harsh Mentor earlier as well. So I doubt it will see play in Jund, but who knows.
I actually run Push. My current list contains 3 Pushes and 2 Bolts.
Yes, I see your point, and it is obvious that the deck requires black and green mana much more than red, but there are some situations in which a mountain could be useful. I dont´t like fetching for a basic swamp in turn 1 (exception would be if I had Overgrown Tomb or Ravine already in hand, but even then I prefer a Crypt/2nd Tomb), because there is usually both black and/or green mana needed in turn 2. So the second fetchland is sacrificed for either a Crypt or a Stomping Ground, which costs me again 2 points of life. It basically comes to turn 3, when I believe fetching for a Mountain is useful. That´s the turn I usually need all 3 lands untapped; either for K-Command, 2-mana Creature + 1-mana spell or Terminate/Decay + 1-mana spell.
Of course there is a chance you have a Ravine/Cliffs in your opening hand and my argumentation makes no sense, but fetching for Tomb + either Forest or Swamp and Mountain in the 3rd turn can save you up to 4 life, which is a relevant number against aggressive decks. I am aware that there are hundreds of differents situations and fetching for a Mountain might not often make sense, I just wanted to express my thoughts, as it is something that comes to my mind when playing against aggressive decks. Of course a 4th basic has other advantages (several Paths, Ghostquarters or Fulminator Mages), but I feel the main reason why I would want to try the Mountain is because there is a chance I might save a couple points of life against fast decks that try to punish Jund´s greedy manabase.
Could you guys analyze the following 74. I'm 1 card short because I'm not sure about what to include.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Twilight Mire
3 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
I appreciate all the help!! Tks!!
UR Twin - RIP
I agree. Personally I wish it included triggered abilities too, but that might have made it too strong.
This is what I am currently testing out.
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Olivia Voldaren
Spells (25)
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Slaughter Games
1 Batterskull
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
I noticed in your list you have a lot of brutalities. I used to have 2 but cut down to 1. I haven't faced a lot of burn in testing so far, so maybe the number will go back up, but 3 feels like a lot. Huntmaster is a card I love, but only seems to do work like 33% of the time when I play him. I have put olivia mainboard because with the decrease in number of bolts in modern, she is a pretty scary 3/3 flier. She blocks skyspawners all day, picks off dorks and lets you steal some creatures from time to time. I like just having the ability to have some play in the air available in the main. I put batterskull in the board just because against it is an awesome card. Thundermaw is a nod to the tons of spirits that are seeing play these days, and it is basically a 5 cmc, do 5 damage card, so against death's shadow and abzan I figure it is solid choice. As mentioned above I would like to try harsh mentor's out, but not sure where I will put them.
My last thought is I would consider grafdigger's cage over spell bomb. If you track MTGGoldFish at all, you will see dredge is poised to take the crown from DS aggro as having the most success in modern (MTGO and paper combined). Dredge was #1 last night, but they appear to have flipped again. Spell bomb is good for clearing the yard for a KoTR, or for keeping delve down, but Lingering souls is being played a lot, control strats with snaps are coming back and storm is a thing now too. Cage shuts down all of those strats pretty effectively. Otherwise I would consider Leylines, but that is my personal preference.
tks for your feedback.
I've decided to go with 3 brutalities, as my main burn and hyper agressive decks hates of choice.. Lately Kitchen Finks has been pretty poor for me, that's why I'm playing 3 CBs. I'll revisit that choice this weak though.
Huntmaster is another card that I'm not 100% confident about. I have the felling that he's great or awful, there's not a term in between. And that's why i choose the split with Kalitas and I'm also playing 1 Olivia on my board.
Probably I'm going to switch those nihil with the cages and add a second Surgical, and go with that as grave hate.
UR Twin - RIP
I tend to run 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Mountain. Not having to always shock to cast red cards is handy.
I feel that the full playset of Lightning Bolt is a mistake nowadays. I rather play with 3 pushes and 2 bolt then 4 bolts. I'm not cutting them all together for now because it can hit a few creatures and PWs, also the reach can be good sometimes.
With that in mind, the extra red source won't be that necessary on the first 3 turns.
UR Twin - RIP
You can if you want. Having 2 swamps is mandatory though so you can play it instead of twilight Mire. Mire can't be fetched but the advantage is that you can have more green sources with it in order fuel ooze for example. If you face a lot of burn or Blood Moon then it is a good idea to run more basics.
Skred is designed to crush midrange, so unfortunately I fear there is not much you can do about that. Sure, Needles and Pulses and stuff can work, but this deck is so brutal. If you face it too often, then its the same like Tron, the best thing you can do is playing a different deck.
Like FD said, if you can't dodge it just play a different deck.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Here's what i'm working on:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
3 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Thragtusk
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Duress
Blood Moon can be a instant lock against some match ups and will make the opp to play around it every game.
I've played with blue moon right after twin got banned, and it were a blast shutting the opp off.
Discard + threat (bob or goyf) plus blood moon it's a great start against almost every deck, and with 4 swamps and 3 forests, the deck can perform greatly with a online moon.
So, what do you guys think of i?
UR Twin - RIP