@NZB2323: Whats the reason that you think Finks is useful in the mainboard? What are you trying to accomplish by that?
I think your manabase is too inconsistant. You got 17 black sources only but you do run 5 Lilis. Additionally you have only 16 green sources but you run a complete playset of finks in the 75. I think you cannot afford to run treetop as well as 5 basics. It would be more useful to cut the mountain and add a 9th fetchland, then cut the treetop and add a third ravine.
I expect a lot of burn, humans, UW control, and Jund decks, where kitchen finks shines. I could cut the 3rd ravine for a treetop but with AT coming out I wanted to run a lot of basics.
EDIT: would 2 collective brutality be better than 2 kitchen finks MB? A turn 2 collective brutality is a lot better than a turn 2 Assassin’s Trophy.
It makes sense to run more basics at first glance, but I don't think Trophy would really make it so that we want to exceed the basic count beyond 4 I think. I think this is first and foremost a strategy change in the mirror matches. In the past you could just fetch for basics, now we have to avoid that in order to get our basics off of trophy. Also note that if you run less dual colour producing land, a trophy can more likely just manascrew us. This would be the case for the treetop and the mountain potentially. The other lands are basically standard.
@FlyingDelver
Remove twilight mire because only 1 damping sphere in side board ? Seems really extrem thought no ?
Does mire have that much of an upside to be run though? I cut them a while a go and haven't missed them. If you can run a stable manabase with or without them, then I would surely choose without them when I play a Damping Sphere personally. Its almost a freebe to avoid this nonbo pretty much.
@all
I test 1 liliana the last hope maindeck and 1 side board and she not impressed me a lot.
Do you have the both post sb against death shadow ? UW ? Jeskai ? Hollow One ? Burn ? Tron ?
LtLH really shines against decks that run x/1s: Junk with Bob and lingering souls, Mardu Pyromancer with young pyromancer, his tokens, and souls, affinity, elves, spirits, humans.
If your meta doesn’t have these decks you can cut her for other cards.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
LtlH is also fantastic in midrange mirros like Jund or Rock, and I also like her against control. I only actually don't like her against combo and big mana. For all the other decks she pretty much overperforms for me very often.
Played some Experimental Frenzy on MTGO. The card is fantastic, it's a little tricky to get used to the sequencing, I've messed up a couple times with Grim Flayer triggers, but I'm consistently generating 4 to 5 cards worth of value each turn.
So, things I've found with this list so far.
1. Manlands are double bad with Frenzy. Frenzy wants lands to come in untapped so you can play more cards, you also put all that potential card advantage to waste by activating them.
2. I want more cheap creatures. I'm thinking of some of the Delve stuff right now. Without Bob in the list those become a lot more viable. Not sure on the number, because Goyf/Flayer both feed on the graveyard. I'm not even sure what creatures I want honestly, but I feel like I want something. The threat count is sufficient right now when under a Frenzy, but I feel behind on board at other times.
3. The sideboard needs some adjustments, Nihil Spellbomb actually gets really good though in post board games because you can use it to get rid of a land with Frenzy.
4. Without Dreadbore and Terminus, I'm liking Blackcleave Cliffs a lot less.
5. More fetches would be good. Normally I would like Field of Ruin, but there's just not enough uses for colorless mana here.
6. Ways to expend mana other than through casting cards are helpful. Ooze activations are better than normal here.
7. Mana balance is challenging. 26 lands may be correct. You want enough that you can go off with Frenzy, and enough to consistently cast it, but you don't want so many that it hinders your draw. A 26 land/12 fetch deck might be optimal.
So anyways, the deck is working fine as is, but these are ways I see in which to improve it.
Frenzy is the real deal, it's almost like having unlimited card draw.
@Aazadan
This card seems just to do the job of a big pw but slowly, it's a good card just too slow i think, tapout t4 for nothing one turn seems not impressive at all.
It's much faster than a big PW. Let me give you a comparison, we used to (and sometimes still do) play a Chandra to generate +1 card per turn for 4 mana, and with the drawback of not really doing anything on turn 4. This is no different, except instead of getting 1 card per turn, you're getting more like 4 cards per turn.
I'm in the middle of a league right now, I'm 2-1 having faced 2 G/x Tron and a U Tron (split the greens). I just finished against the U Tron. I landed a frenzy around turn 4 or 5. At turn 9, despite my opponent playing multiple Search for Tomorrows, some Condescend, Remands, and so on, I was more than 20 cards deeper into my library than they were. I also played a few friendlies prior to the league. No exaggeration, even with my deck which is still suboptimal, I have won every single game I have cast this card.
I definitely wouldn’t play LtLH against Tron for games 2 and 3. She’s good against control because after a board wipe she’s still around, and generates value every turn. Against Hollow One she can be good with scooze/Kalitas as her +1 can lead to exiling creatures. Against burn she’s slow and can’t remove any of their creatures. Against DS I’ve found she’s lacking unless they splash white for souls.
The other thing to keep in mind is it depends on your 75 and what card she’s competing with for the matchup. Against control she’s better than bolt, but worse than BBE. Against burn she’s better than thoughtseize or Bob, but worse than kitchen finks.
I also like to make sure that I don’t have too many 3 drops after sideboarding, because if you have a hand of 2 lands and Kitchen Finks, LtLH, Fulminator Mage, LotV, and Khologhan’s Command, that hand is terrible.
Even having 2 or 3 3 drops in your hand can be awkward, especially if you don’t have a 2 drop or a 1 drop.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Fatal Push is probably the best MB card, but the other 2 are better with cascade. Collective brutality is the most versatile, but can underwhelm in some matchups. Kitchen finks is always good, but also cost the most amount of mana.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Call me crazy, but I will probably diversify a little just because of the popularity of Meddling Mage. I may put the fourth Assassin's Trophy in the side-board but I'm on Ghost Quarter-Rock, not Jund, and I have a burning hatred for Tron.
I haven't really looked at what I want to be packing in the sideboard quite yet, but with a few more games under this 60's belt I'll probably start focusing on it a little more good luck testing, everyone!
A couple points of discussion I would like to open up:
1) 4 x Assassin's Trophy - I want to test the full play set to begin with to see how it goes, as I feel it is too good to play anything less:
a) always going to have a target when hit with cascade.
b) the catch-all modern vindicate card we have always wanted.
Those 2 points aside ramping the opponent is quite the opposite to what jund typically would like to do. This is especially the case when:
a) you are on the draw and early on you are forced to Trophy something on T2 and all of a sudden it's 2 lands vs. 4 lands. Gg.
b) drawing multiples before around turn 4 or 5 feels baaaad. Same point as above.
So then... Is it better to cut down to 3 Trophies and if yes what to replace it with.... A 3rd LotV maybe?
2) 2nd point of discussion, how do we feel about LotV post GRN. Initially, I was thinking going down to 3 trophies and back up to 3 LotV, but I'm expecting an initial spike in GBx midrange and even sultai brews and Death Shadow brews with people wanting to try Trophy. With this in mind how good will LotV be - is it worth going to 3 or even back to the full play set in the 75?
3) If no... Assuming I go down to 3 Trophy, what else would take the slot?
This list is what I run except I do 3 LotV and 3 trophy. Love this iteration and I enjoy this build a ton.
Ok. Between discard spells, Scavenging Ooze and spot removal, K-Command and Pulse (sometimes acting as a sweeper), I find ir extremely easy to keep them off their game plan long enough to kill them or just end their chance at putting their combo together. You cant just fire off spells without knowing what you're doing but the onus is definitely on the Jund pilot to not screw up that match. The only cards I bring in are some number of Ancient Grudge and maybe Nihil Spellbomb if I have enough things to remove (depends on current build).
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I would exchange the Twilight Mire with a third Bloodstained Mire. It has negative synergy with the Damping Sphere in the SB.
4 inquisition of Kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
3 Assassin’s Trophy
1 Khologhan’s Command
4 Liliana of the veil
1 Liliana, the last hope
Creatures 17
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 grim flayer
2 scavenging ooze
2 kitchen finks
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
2 swamp
2 Forrest
1 mountain
2 raging ravine
1 treetop village
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 ancient grudge
2 golgari charm
2 collective brutality
2 kitchen finks
2 fulminator mage
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Batterskull
What do you guys think? Also, has Reid Duke said anything about Assassin’s Trohpy and what kind of a list he will run?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think your manabase is too inconsistant. You got 17 black sources only but you do run 5 Lilis. Additionally you have only 16 green sources but you run a complete playset of finks in the 75. I think you cannot afford to run treetop as well as 5 basics. It would be more useful to cut the mountain and add a 9th fetchland, then cut the treetop and add a third ravine.
EDIT: would 2 collective brutality be better than 2 kitchen finks MB? A turn 2 collective brutality is a lot better than a turn 2 Assassin’s Trophy.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Does mire have that much of an upside to be run though? I cut them a while a go and haven't missed them. If you can run a stable manabase with or without them, then I would surely choose without them when I play a Damping Sphere personally. Its almost a freebe to avoid this nonbo pretty much.
LtLH really shines against decks that run x/1s: Junk with Bob and lingering souls, Mardu Pyromancer with young pyromancer, his tokens, and souls, affinity, elves, spirits, humans.
If your meta doesn’t have these decks you can cut her for other cards.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Here's the list I'm running
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
Spells 25
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Collective Brutality
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Experimental Frenzy
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Display of Dominance
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Explosives
So, things I've found with this list so far.
1. Manlands are double bad with Frenzy. Frenzy wants lands to come in untapped so you can play more cards, you also put all that potential card advantage to waste by activating them.
2. I want more cheap creatures. I'm thinking of some of the Delve stuff right now. Without Bob in the list those become a lot more viable. Not sure on the number, because Goyf/Flayer both feed on the graveyard. I'm not even sure what creatures I want honestly, but I feel like I want something. The threat count is sufficient right now when under a Frenzy, but I feel behind on board at other times.
3. The sideboard needs some adjustments, Nihil Spellbomb actually gets really good though in post board games because you can use it to get rid of a land with Frenzy.
4. Without Dreadbore and Terminus, I'm liking Blackcleave Cliffs a lot less.
5. More fetches would be good. Normally I would like Field of Ruin, but there's just not enough uses for colorless mana here.
6. Ways to expend mana other than through casting cards are helpful. Ooze activations are better than normal here.
7. Mana balance is challenging. 26 lands may be correct. You want enough that you can go off with Frenzy, and enough to consistently cast it, but you don't want so many that it hinders your draw. A 26 land/12 fetch deck might be optimal.
So anyways, the deck is working fine as is, but these are ways I see in which to improve it.
Frenzy is the real deal, it's almost like having unlimited card draw.
It's much faster than a big PW. Let me give you a comparison, we used to (and sometimes still do) play a Chandra to generate +1 card per turn for 4 mana, and with the drawback of not really doing anything on turn 4. This is no different, except instead of getting 1 card per turn, you're getting more like 4 cards per turn.
I'm in the middle of a league right now, I'm 2-1 having faced 2 G/x Tron and a U Tron (split the greens). I just finished against the U Tron. I landed a frenzy around turn 4 or 5. At turn 9, despite my opponent playing multiple Search for Tomorrows, some Condescend, Remands, and so on, I was more than 20 cards deeper into my library than they were. I also played a few friendlies prior to the league. No exaggeration, even with my deck which is still suboptimal, I have won every single game I have cast this card.
The other thing to keep in mind is it depends on your 75 and what card she’s competing with for the matchup. Against control she’s better than bolt, but worse than BBE. Against burn she’s better than thoughtseize or Bob, but worse than kitchen finks.
I also like to make sure that I don’t have too many 3 drops after sideboarding, because if you have a hand of 2 lands and Kitchen Finks, LtLH, Fulminator Mage, LotV, and Khologhan’s Command, that hand is terrible.
Even having 2 or 3 3 drops in your hand can be awkward, especially if you don’t have a 2 drop or a 1 drop.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Also, out of these cards, which one is the best to run as a 2 of MB?
Fatal Push is probably the best MB card, but the other 2 are better with cascade. Collective brutality is the most versatile, but can underwhelm in some matchups. Kitchen finks is always good, but also cost the most amount of mana.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
With the minimal playtesting, I've settled on a main 60 like this...
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Raging Ravine
1 Twilight Mire
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
I haven't really looked at what I want to be packing in the sideboard quite yet, but with a few more games under this 60's belt I'll probably start focusing on it a little more good luck testing, everyone!
This list is what I run except I do 3 LotV and 3 trophy. Love this iteration and I enjoy this build a ton.
With throphy on 2, perhaps that frees up k command on 3? Perhaps we do not need as many lilianas and or m pulse?