Todd doesn't seem to agree with you since he brings in 3x Surgicals against UW when playing his Bant Midrange deck to mess up Termini miracles and again to stop good half of snapcasters, but you know, no pro ever brings in surgical against UW etc.
Todd is a great guy and a good player, but if you've seen him play Jund before, you should know better than to follow his every word on the subject.
Also, that's not Jund. Did you actually read his plan for Surgical Extraction? It's specifically for UW control (versions playing Terminus) so that you can get a Terminus in the graveyard after the miracle trigger on another. If that isn't the definition of "narrow," then I don't know what is.
EDIT: I know this quote is technically behind a pay wall, but I feel it's needed to prove a point. If that's against some random ToS, someone let me know please.
From the mind of Todd Stevens:
The Surgical Extractions are best against the Terminus versions of U/W Control where you can take a Terminus in their graveyard once they've revealed another as their first draw step for the turn. It can also make them shuffle after a Brainstorm from Jace, the Mind Sculptor when you're sure they've left a Terminus on top, make them shuffle after keeping a card they need with Search for Azcanta's ability, or stop a Snapcaster Mage all for zero mana. You want to focus on Path to Exile, Cryptic Command, and Terminus in these matchups; don't Surgical other targets unless you really need your opponent to shuffle. Surgical Extraction isn't nearly as good against Jeskai Control, but I'll often times bring in one to mess up a Snapcaster Mage when I don't have better sideboard cards. I brought in one in round fifteen of # SCGBALT, but the addition of Dromoka's Command in the sideboard gives me 60 cards I'd rather have instead.
Had multiples and brought exactly one Surgical Extraction in 15 rounds of competitive play. On top of that, he now has an entire 60 cards he would rather play than bring in an Extraction with Dromoka's Command. Way to go on being selective.
The article isn't behind paywall, it was posted 15 days ago so everyone can see it.
Again, he brought in one, which is fine, I didn't suggest bringing in multiples.
Bringing in a card, to disrupt your opponent's trump card, which is a 1-mana sweeper is fine. Terminus is the best card in UW control shell anyway.
Still you are banking on things going exactly your way with the surgical, while in realit itll be a bad topdeck while youre behind on board. And that todd stevens argument is completely irrelevant since he isnt playing bant..which doesnt have discard, spellbombs and is mainly has creatures so is super weak to sweepers compard to jund. Surgical is the #1 over sideboarded card in modern
The article isn't behind paywall, it was posted 15 days ago so everyone can see it.
Again, he brought in 1 against Jeskai Control, which is fine, I didn't suggest bringing in multiples. I'd bring 1 in against any gy reliant control strategy still.
Bringing in a card, to disrupt your opponent's trump card, which is a 1-mana sweeper is fine. Terminus is the best card in UW control shell anyway and he suggests bringing in 3, which I think is overkill and 1 should be fine.
Apologies. I still have premium, and I saw the premium tag in the header. More to the point, you missed the part where he wouldn't even bring it in now that he has Dromoka's Command in that list.
Todd doesn't seem to agree with you since he brings in 3x Surgicals against UW when playing his Bant Midrange deck to mess up Termini miracles and again to stop good half of snapcasters, but you know, no pro ever brings in surgical against UW etc.
Extraction is wildly overboarded in Modern. It's typically a bad idea unless the card has an explicit GY gameplan. This includes KCI, Dredge, Storm (careful for Empty), Bridgevine, Grishoalbrand (careful for TfB) and others. Extraction is also good if you can remove a critical gamepiece from the picture that you are otherwise interacting with, e.g. a Tron land or Valakut. It does not include random decks that incidentally use the GY or get cards there. LSV breaks this down very succinctly. Anyone who plays BGx should be familiar with his advice on Extraction: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/sideboarding-traps-boarding-in-narrow-cards-too-often/
Extraction is semi-viable in Bant Spirits because UW Control's critical gamepiece is Terminus, and that's why Todd wants it removed. BGx vs. UW does not have that same hinge point.
If you're behind and you're depending on your topdecks to win the game aginst UW, you've likely already lost the game and haven't realized it yet.
Why are we even talking about surgical in bant/uw spirits. Its only oversideboarded by some people.. but most bgx players have gotten wise. Its especially better in snapcaster& discard decks. I think all your cards need to have impact or trade 1 for 1 atleast vs uw control, surgical is straight up bad man, theyve got a mix of stuff that can get you. Against uw on an empty board both topdecking jund has lots of good draws.
Extraction is wildly overboarded in Modern. It's typically a bad idea unless the card has an explicit GY gameplan.
I agree with Surgical being wildly overboarded. But I disagree on viewing surgical as GY hate. Surgical should not be viewed as being a GY hate. And I think this wrong point of view leads to this wildly overboarding culture in the first place. Surgical is a combo hate. It just happens that the most combo decks are somewhat GY dependand. But against other combo (or -esque) like decks, like Ad Nauseam or Tron, you would also board in Surgical for sure, despite not being dependand on the GY. In that way surgical often comes in against GY strategies, but not because of the GY strategy in the first place, its because those are combo decks relying on specific single cards for their deck to work.
I have a question about the sideboard guide on grixis control here on the primer after facing it a couple of times. It all seems correct but in the primer it says we board out abrupt decay because of the lack of detenion spheres and such, but I dont see abrupt decay on the ''board out'' list as you can see, is this a mistake? I mean they do play Azcanta, so decay might not be so bad? same goes for fulminator btw.
"Grixis Control
Board Out
Fatal Push
Terminate
Lightning Bolt
Scavenging Ooze
Board In
Thoughtseize
Duress
Collective Brutality
Kolaghan's Command
Nihil Spellbomb
Kitchen Finks
Fulminator Mage
Grixis Control is another control variant like UW Control or Jeskai Control which uses powerful and impactful cards like Cryptic Command and Jace, the Mind Sculptor to get ahead in resources and grind us out. Grixis Control is a little different than the white based Control decks though. First of all, the inclusion of black leaves them out of Path, Detention Sphere and Celestial Colonnade. As first consequence through this, Abrupt Decay and Fulminator Mage get weaker in that matchup, but Kitchen Finks gets more powerful. Black grants them Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command, Terminate and discard spells. Due to KCommand, GY hate from our side become a little bit better than against the other white based variants. I would include this facts in your priority for sideboarding. Against UW Control we keep Decay for Sphere. Against Grixis we cut it. Against UW and Jeskai we bring in all Fulminator and only then Spellbombs. As for Grixis, I like bringing in all Spellbombs first, and fill up left over slots with Fulminators. Besides that, the matchup is very similar to the other variants. Attack the GY more, and rely more on Finks. Rely less on Fulminator though. One last interaction to note: If you have an uncontested Liliana of the Veil in your hand, you want to attack with your manland, but the opponent kept one card in his hand. So logically, you want to plus Liliana beforehand. If your own draw this turn is an excess land, consider to dont play it before plussing LoTV! Why? One devastating trick the opponent might be able to do is to bounce our most powerful permanent in response to the plus ability from Liliana with a surprise Cryptic Command. If they for example bounce Lili in response, we have to discard her as its the only card in hand. Unless we really don't need that extra land, discard it wont hurt us too much, to protect our Liliana or whatever else."
Yeah that is simply a mistake, it should be in the board out section. If you notice any pesky stuff like Azcanta of something else, then you could think about keeping it, but overall I think its correct to ditch it. Anyways, this is gonna be less relevant now with Trophy.
I agree with Chaos021 in regards to surgical not really being a good choice as a sideboard card in jund. My main issue with the card is that it requires some amount of setup to disrupt the combo decks, which makes it narrow. When I am playing jund I want to play cards that will allow me to increase percentages in more matchups, versatility is key.
I won't argue with the results, but I don't like the Flayers in his list. I don't see a reliable way to enable Delirium, and looks like more often than not is a 2/2 with trample. For reference, I'm playing Abzan traverse and Flayer feels like that without Delirium.
Then again, it wasn't me who made it to the top8 of a GP.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
This is a much more traditional list and represents the highest-finish, most current Jund list going into Guilds. The 3/2 Lily split is interesting, especially in a tournament and field that is defined more by UW Control than Humans. I think I'd cut 1 Lily, 1 Decay, and 1 Dreadbore for the 3 Trophies after Guilds hits, but I'm not thrilled about just running 3 Bolts. Even if UW Control is a defining deck, Bolt is still decent there and it's just so critical against all the other aggressive decks.
So I'm back home from GP Hong Kong. I went 4-4 in the main event. With no byes, I started 3-0, then lost 4 in a row. 3 of those matches in a row to topdecked Arcbound Ravagers (2 of those 3 for exact damage through pumping Balista,) which is a bad feeling. The biggest decks there were BY FAR UW/Jeskai control, followed by Bant Spirits and Humans, then Affinity and its multiple versions. Very little in the way of GY decks like Hollow One or Bridgevine. I did change my SB a little for the event compared to what I said...
My records for the GP matchups...
1 Bant Spirits (2-0) 1-0
2 Burn (2-0)
3 Affinity (2-0)
4 Jeskai Control (1-2) 3-1 (This one was even more heartbreaking than the affinity matches. I could feel the game slipping away game 3 when they were empty-handed with 6 mana up, I have only K-Command in my hand. I try to draw step discard/return BBE, and they got a Cryptic to counter. I drew a land next turn and they flipped an Azcanta to seal the deal)
5 Harden Scales Affinity (1-2) 3-2 (also a hard one. I won game 1, and had Shatterstorm in my hand with only 1 red mana game 2 for 3 turns.)
6 Harden Scales Affinity (1-2) 3-3
7 Affinity (1-2) 3-4
8 Affinity (2-1) 4-4
After Saturday, I switched a Spellbomb with an Ancient Grudge for the PTQ. Of course, I never faced any Affinity, which is exactly what does happen when you make that switch. It was only 5 rounds for the PTQ, but I went 4-1 for 22nd place out of 175. Everyone in the top 8 of that started 4-0 and IDed. Matches there...
Looking at the Jund list that T8 the main event, you may be talking about Grim Flayer, but I would be looking at the sideboard for why they made it. Maybe the Chandra as well. Walking around the top tables on Sunday, there was only 1 Jund player, so it must have been him. Deglamer and CoBru were excellent additions because Welding Jar was everywhere, and bringing in ways to get around Artifact regen and Selfless Spirit was the way to go.
Overall, I still agree with my take that Bob is not where you want to be right now against the field. You need a creature that can attack profitably, and Flayer or Tracker fit the bill while still giving you card selection/advantage. I never lost a match against burn this weekend and I attribute that all to this decision to cut Bobs and maindeck Brutality - its like I've already sideboarded against them.
Running 7 endgame threats (4 BBE and 3 Tracker which occupy the same slot) pretty much ensures a good matchup against control and midrange, but you are lacking a bit of early game drawing power. Its a bit topend heavy for me overall, but if it works, then it works. I personally would settle for 3-4 endgame creatures like BBE/Tracker and still run 3 Bob for the early/midgame. Especially with 24 lands only, I think those heavy endgame creatures aren't that well supported.
bob versus tracker discussion is not so easy really...When i tested a list like yours it was a disaster compared to the classic jund. Obviously play brutality instead of bob give you a better MU against burn, i loose 80% of my G1 against burn and win 80% of my post SB because i have 3 brutality instead of my 3 bob.
I am surprised about the 24 lands in your list (4BBE + 3 tracker) and in the top 8 list (4 BBE+1 chandra).
And one advice for you, you seems to focus a lot of unlucky points, that's will not help you to anything.
The guy which make top 8 with jund, is he a pro player or a random guy ?
I focus on the bad beats stories because they are more fun to talk about than just I won here, lost there. I think things would have gone better if I had the Grudge over the Spellbomb, but who knows? I didn't get to say my favorite story in the modern side events after the PTQ: I Pulsed my Grafdigger's cage to grow Goyf to beat a storm player. That match was probably the most fun I had against any opponent this weekend.
I don't think the Jund guy was a pro player, but he did come in with 2 byes. Looking at the pictures now, I remember him because saw him walking to the arena at the same time as me during the typhoon, with luggage in tow, looking very freaked out. Alot of the Japanese pros who were supposed to come pulled out at the last minute, so there were fewer pros at the event besides the MTGMint Card people, who were on a bunch of different decks (Bridgevine, Humans, and a couple played regular Bant Company decks.)
It was a very unique experience to be stuck in a mall, with a huge typhoon going on outside. There were two leaks in the roof in the event hall, one raining on people playing in the PTQ. The judges got a big piece of styrofoam, picked up the mats with the games, and moved them a couple tables over very quickly.
@FlyingDelver A chart where we can compare Bob, Tracker, Flayer and Scooze for every matchup might help I think. Would you be interested in creating one?
Like rankings can be: very bad - bad - average - good - very good, something basic.
awesome idea, I will do that.
EDIT: But I will add BBE into the mix as well and categorize them a little bit in their strengths early, mid and lategame.
i agree on FlyingDelver and Brightmist that bob and tracker are not comparable. I did ask this in the past if it can be replace but didn't get favourable response so I tried it. its clunky and most cases you don't want to stumble and fall.
as for Grim Flayer Jund. I think this can work in our advantage. Its a faster clock and grim flayer can be a goyf 5-8. We cant play bauble and traverse tho because its a bad cascade target so we just need to make some slight delirium switches.
3rd ooze - nihil spellbomb
4th bolt or push - tarfire
abrupt decay - engineered explosive
or grindy card - bitterblossom
I did implement a first draft of this comparizon in form of a chart in the primer. I am going to fine tune this though over the course of more thought processes. So there is nothing set in stone. Also more matchups might be added.
You can't always assume you will have delirium with a currently typical Jund build against either of those decks. I've played against Hollow One enough now to know that sometimes a 4/4 Grim Flayer really isn't that good against them either. In other terms, how often do you have a 4/5 Tarmogoyf in the early game (before turn 4) based purely on your own graveyard? Without delirium, Grim Flayer is rated appropriately I think for what it's capable of. In the late game, it's alright, but I would rather have Tireless Tracker against control and Scavenging Ooze against Hollow One.
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Todd is a great guy and a good player, but if you've seen him play Jund before, you should know better than to follow his every word on the subject.
Also, that's not Jund. Did you actually read his plan for Surgical Extraction? It's specifically for UW control (versions playing Terminus) so that you can get a Terminus in the graveyard after the miracle trigger on another. If that isn't the definition of "narrow," then I don't know what is.
EDIT: I know this quote is technically behind a pay wall, but I feel it's needed to prove a point. If that's against some random ToS, someone let me know please.
From the mind of Todd Stevens:
Had multiples and brought exactly one Surgical Extraction in 15 rounds of competitive play. On top of that, he now has an entire 60 cards he would rather play than bring in an Extraction with Dromoka's Command. Way to go on being selective.
Still you are banking on things going exactly your way with the surgical, while in realit itll be a bad topdeck while youre behind on board. And that todd stevens argument is completely irrelevant since he isnt playing bant..which doesnt have discard, spellbombs and is mainly has creatures so is super weak to sweepers compard to jund. Surgical is the #1 over sideboarded card in modern
Apologies. I still have premium, and I saw the premium tag in the header. More to the point, you missed the part where he wouldn't even bring it in now that he has Dromoka's Command in that list.
Extraction is wildly overboarded in Modern. It's typically a bad idea unless the card has an explicit GY gameplan. This includes KCI, Dredge, Storm (careful for Empty), Bridgevine, Grishoalbrand (careful for TfB) and others. Extraction is also good if you can remove a critical gamepiece from the picture that you are otherwise interacting with, e.g. a Tron land or Valakut. It does not include random decks that incidentally use the GY or get cards there. LSV breaks this down very succinctly. Anyone who plays BGx should be familiar with his advice on Extraction:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/sideboarding-traps-boarding-in-narrow-cards-too-often/
Extraction is semi-viable in Bant Spirits because UW Control's critical gamepiece is Terminus, and that's why Todd wants it removed. BGx vs. UW does not have that same hinge point.
Why are we even talking about surgical in bant/uw spirits. Its only oversideboarded by some people.. but most bgx players have gotten wise. Its especially better in snapcaster& discard decks. I think all your cards need to have impact or trade 1 for 1 atleast vs uw control, surgical is straight up bad man, theyve got a mix of stuff that can get you. Against uw on an empty board both topdecking jund has lots of good draws.
I agree with Surgical being wildly overboarded. But I disagree on viewing surgical as GY hate. Surgical should not be viewed as being a GY hate. And I think this wrong point of view leads to this wildly overboarding culture in the first place. Surgical is a combo hate. It just happens that the most combo decks are somewhat GY dependand. But against other combo (or -esque) like decks, like Ad Nauseam or Tron, you would also board in Surgical for sure, despite not being dependand on the GY. In that way surgical often comes in against GY strategies, but not because of the GY strategy in the first place, its because those are combo decks relying on specific single cards for their deck to work.
Yeah that is simply a mistake, it should be in the board out section. If you notice any pesky stuff like Azcanta of something else, then you could think about keeping it, but overall I think its correct to ditch it. Anyways, this is gonna be less relevant now with Trophy.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2018-09-16
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Instants/Sorceries:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dreadbore
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
4 Raging Ravine
1 Fatal Push
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Collective Brutality
2 Deglamer
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
Then again, it wasn't me who made it to the top8 of a GP.
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creatures:
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants/Sorceries:
1 Dreadbore
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Choke
1 Damping Sphere
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Surgical Extraction
This is a much more traditional list and represents the highest-finish, most current Jund list going into Guilds. The 3/2 Lily split is interesting, especially in a tournament and field that is defined more by UW Control than Humans. I think I'd cut 1 Lily, 1 Decay, and 1 Dreadbore for the 3 Trophies after Guilds hits, but I'm not thrilled about just running 3 Bolts. Even if UW Control is a defining deck, Bolt is still decent there and it's just so critical against all the other aggressive decks.
Jund is good against control matchup becauseof bbe. With flayer, it makes it a fast clock too.
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Languish
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Choke
1 Shatterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
If you're gonnna hate, go big right?
Maindeck
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dreadbore
2 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
My records for the GP matchups...
1 Bant Spirits (2-0) 1-0
2 Burn (2-0)
3 Affinity (2-0)
4 Jeskai Control (1-2) 3-1 (This one was even more heartbreaking than the affinity matches. I could feel the game slipping away game 3 when they were empty-handed with 6 mana up, I have only K-Command in my hand. I try to draw step discard/return BBE, and they got a Cryptic to counter. I drew a land next turn and they flipped an Azcanta to seal the deal)
5 Harden Scales Affinity (1-2) 3-2 (also a hard one. I won game 1, and had Shatterstorm in my hand with only 1 red mana game 2 for 3 turns.)
6 Harden Scales Affinity (1-2) 3-3
7 Affinity (1-2) 3-4
8 Affinity (2-1) 4-4
After Saturday, I switched a Spellbomb with an Ancient Grudge for the PTQ. Of course, I never faced any Affinity, which is exactly what does happen when you make that switch. It was only 5 rounds for the PTQ, but I went 4-1 for 22nd place out of 175. Everyone in the top 8 of that started 4-0 and IDed. Matches there...
1 Bant Spirits (1-2) 0-1
2 Burn (2-0) 1-1
3 Humans (2-1) 2-1
4 Burn (2-0) 3-1
5 UR Wizards (2-0) 4-1
Looking at the Jund list that T8 the main event, you may be talking about Grim Flayer, but I would be looking at the sideboard for why they made it. Maybe the Chandra as well. Walking around the top tables on Sunday, there was only 1 Jund player, so it must have been him. Deglamer and CoBru were excellent additions because Welding Jar was everywhere, and bringing in ways to get around Artifact regen and Selfless Spirit was the way to go.
Overall, I still agree with my take that Bob is not where you want to be right now against the field. You need a creature that can attack profitably, and Flayer or Tracker fit the bill while still giving you card selection/advantage. I never lost a match against burn this weekend and I attribute that all to this decision to cut Bobs and maindeck Brutality - its like I've already sideboarded against them.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/13649 - My all foil cube.
I focus on the bad beats stories because they are more fun to talk about than just I won here, lost there. I think things would have gone better if I had the Grudge over the Spellbomb, but who knows? I didn't get to say my favorite story in the modern side events after the PTQ: I Pulsed my Grafdigger's cage to grow Goyf to beat a storm player. That match was probably the most fun I had against any opponent this weekend.
I don't think the Jund guy was a pro player, but he did come in with 2 byes. Looking at the pictures now, I remember him because saw him walking to the arena at the same time as me during the typhoon, with luggage in tow, looking very freaked out. Alot of the Japanese pros who were supposed to come pulled out at the last minute, so there were fewer pros at the event besides the MTGMint Card people, who were on a bunch of different decks (Bridgevine, Humans, and a couple played regular Bant Company decks.)
It was a very unique experience to be stuck in a mall, with a huge typhoon going on outside. There were two leaks in the roof in the event hall, one raining on people playing in the PTQ. The judges got a big piece of styrofoam, picked up the mats with the games, and moved them a couple tables over very quickly.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/13649 - My all foil cube.
awesome idea, I will do that.
EDIT: But I will add BBE into the mix as well and categorize them a little bit in their strengths early, mid and lategame.
as for Grim Flayer Jund. I think this can work in our advantage. Its a faster clock and grim flayer can be a goyf 5-8. We cant play bauble and traverse tho because its a bad cascade target so we just need to make some slight delirium switches.
3rd ooze - nihil spellbomb
4th bolt or push - tarfire
abrupt decay - engineered explosive
or grindy card - bitterblossom
Here is also the chart for direct reference:
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki