Have anyone tried running a list with Faithless Looting yet ? While trimming down 1 or 2 BBE's + 1 or 2 lands for them ?
Seems like we do need something to make us more consistent on what we find and when.
Ever since BBE got unbanned, as powerful of a card as it is, Ive been very unimpressed.
When I make more threat-heavy, fast Jund versions I feel like my BBE's fail me a lot.
When I make 25 lands with lots of powerful BBE findings I feel like my deck gets clunky.
Sometimes I really just miss running a Jund with no 4 drops or with just a huntmaster or two and thats it.
I have, its been sometimes really great, sometimes quite awkward. I am also not sure what to cut in order to incoorporate it. What do you have in mind?
I know right? It’s pretty nuts. It’s like everyone in this forum has never watched/played against a control player who played two lands, then bricked on land 3 and died miserably. It happens literally all the time, and they play 4 serum visions. It’s a symptom of playing a fair deck in modern.
No one would have considered this a problem worth putting the deck down before mardu, and the only reason anyone is even talking about it now is because people are obsessed with faithless looting.
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I'd have to make some experiments to come up with something solid.
But I'd probably start off cutting a couple BBE's. I feel like they get objectivelly worse in a Faithless Looting deck (Since that's a very poor cascade hit.) I can see some BBE's going to the sideboard instead of mainboard so that we have them vs. Blue decks where, IMO, they really shine.
I also dont think its insane running 23/24 lands instead of 24/25 if we're running Faithless Lootings. The card lets you dig for 2 extra cards, which should fix a lot of land issues very often... If we look into Jeskai Control, for instance, they run about the same ammount of lands as us (24/25) and have a MUCH heavier curve (4x Snaps = 3cmc+ cards, 4x Commands = 4cmc each, and 2 Teferis = 5cmc cards. Not to mention 2x verdicts.) and it works out. IMO the reason that works for them is because they have such an easy time selecting their draws with Cantrips so that they can avoid flooding too much while also avoid missing land drops as often as we may do.
cantrips and filtering "unclunk" awkward manabases.
Another card that I could see being a 3x of is LOTV in a Looting deck, idk.
The cool thing about running Faithless Looting IMO is that you can kind-of cut cards and that doesnt mean they wont show up, as often, as you cycle through your deck so much more that its easier to dig copies of the cards you want. I hasnt run the math, but maybe a deck with, say, 3+2 1cmc removals can find them just about as often as a deck with 4+2 but no Looting.
I sometimes play Hollow One (I know, I'm an infidel) and if there is something that the deck has REALLY impressed me with is how you can sideboard just 1 or 2 silver bullets and you'll still very consistently find them just out of how much cycling the deck goes through, that is really awesome when it comes to sidebaording aswell as consistency for a deck.
I know right? It’s pretty nuts. It’s like everyone in this forum has never watched/played against a control player who played two lands, then bricked on land 3 and died miserably. It happens literally all the time, and they play 4 serum visions. It’s a symptom of playing a fair deck in modern.
No one would have considered this a problem worth putting the deck down before mardu, and the only reason anyone is even talking about it now is because people are obsessed with faithless looting.
I think I played the deck long enough to recognize differences in how a deck plays out, thanks for mentioning basic stuff everyone knows. In the past those issues have not been so punishing like now. I don't know how long you played the deck, but this is pretty clear when you compare a typical game of Jund vs any deck in the past (And I mean more than 2 years ago).
I think if you think about this a bit longer, you'll notice that this is not about Mardu. Mardu however is the outcome what happens when consistancy is more important than ever in modern. The format becomes more and more punishing for stumbling. Jund as a deck basically does not evolve or improve as much as to keep up with the increasing powerlevel of newly discovered decks.
However, if you still think this is just natural variance and thats it for you then its all fine. I personally think that addressing issues which are justified by proper argumentation (which I and others like chaos very well did) should be accepted as well so that we are able to discuss about them. If you don't want to contribute other than saying its not an issue (without reasonable arguments on why or without just calling this ranting), then very well for you, but then I may ask you to simply not join the discussion about that specific topic. After all this is an open forum where any ontopic issue should be accepted to brought to the table, as long as its backed up by proper argumentation.
The dude/deck sucks it up for 5 rounds on MTGO and now we’re gonna have three pages of how ‘Jund is obsolete, just look at the insurmountable evidence’ to wade through.
Yes, Reid's play was questionable at times through that video in my personal opinion. I still think he knows the deck and his opponent's deck better than I would on an average day, and it's so much easier to be a backseat pilot. The other part that you're forgetting is that FlyingDelver and I play this deck a lot. I'm talking online and in paper for myself. This isn't a conclusion I came to after having one bad day.
The dude/deck sucks it up for 5 rounds on MTGO and now we’re gonna have three pages of how ‘Jund is obsolete, just look at the insurmountable evidence’ to wade through.
Yes, Reid's play was questionable at times through that video in my personal opinion. I still think he knows the deck and his opponent's deck better than I would on an average day, and it's so much easier to be a backseat pilot. The other part that you're forgetting is that FlyingDelver and I play this deck a lot. I'm talking online and in paper for myself. This isn't a conclusion I came to after having one bad day.
I agree with that, its exactly what I also trying to say through multiple posts now. Its not a "having one bad day" kind of thing.
I dont see how this is about "Being obsessed with Faithless Looting right now."
We're a Red, Green and Black deck.
So far, the Diagnosis of us, Jund players, have been that the deck needs better filtering and card selection so that we dont Flood/Clunk as much aswell as to avoid relying so much on just top-decking our way out of situations.
The usual consensus is that decks with good Filtering/Cycling/Cantrips are the way to fix that issue.
Faithless Looting is just the natural first card to come to mind.
I'd have to make some experiments to come up with something solid.
But I'd probably start off cutting a couple BBE's. I feel like they get objectivelly worse in a Faithless Looting deck (Since that's a very poor cascade hit.) I can see some BBE's going to the sideboard instead of mainboard so that we have them vs. Blue decks where, IMO, they really shine.
I also dont think its insane running 23/24 lands instead of 24/25 if we're running Faithless Lootings. The card lets you dig for 2 extra cards, which should fix a lot of land issues very often... If we look into Jeskai Control, for instance, they run about the same ammount of lands as us (24/25) and have a MUCH heavier curve (4x Snaps = 3cmc+ cards, 4x Commands = 4cmc each, and 2 Teferis = 5cmc cards. Not to mention 2x verdicts.) and it works out. IMO the reason that works for them is because they have such an easy time selecting their draws with Cantrips so that they can avoid flooding too much while also avoid missing land drops as often as we may do.
cantrips and filtering "unclunk" awkward manabases.
Another card that I could see being a 3x of is LOTV in a Looting deck, idk.
The cool thing about running Faithless Looting IMO is that you can kind-of cut cards and that doesnt mean they wont show up, as often, as you cycle through your deck so much more that its easier to dig copies of the cards you want. I hasnt run the math, but maybe a deck with, say, 3+2 1cmc removals can find them just about as often as a deck with 4+2 but no Looting.
I sometimes play Hollow One (I know, I'm an infidel) and if there is something that the deck has REALLY impressed me with is how you can sideboard just 1 or 2 silver bullets and you'll still very consistently find them just out of how much cycling the deck goes through, that is really awesome when it comes to sidebaording aswell as consistency for a deck.
I think cutting BBE makes very much sense, at least down to 2 copies or so. However, I would stay at 24 lands probably. I think 24 lands is already pretty tight right now, so we want the lands to actually hit landdrops, but looting would after that help getting rid of excess ones.
Right, I can see 24 lands being fine.
Like I said, with Faithless looting, drawing too many lands/too few become a lot less of a issue as you can just kick them out to the graveyward when they're too many, or dig for more when they're too few.
2x BBE's seems fine in a Faithless Looting. I'm sure we'd still find them quite consistently at the right time and we can always have a 3rd or 4th in the sidebaord for the right matchups.
How do you feel about HUntmaster of the Fells though ?
I think he is often worse than BBE, but he's defnetly A LOT more reliable when it comes to getting vallue out of him. I've been running 1x main deck (I run 3x BBE + 1 of him) and I still love him.
I know I've been insisting on this, but I'm still very un-pleased with the randomness of BBE, at least when we are having to try versions of this deck that arent built around her which lowers the likeability of good hits. Huntmaster is always the first card that comes to my mind when I try to think of a 4cmc card that always have at least paid its bill.
I never suggested that no one is allowed to raise issues and attempt to address what they see as issues with the jund deck. But if you re-read my original post from yesterday I do see this very much as natural variance for a midrange/control deck, and the best way to address that variance is to lower your curve so you're less reliant on land drops 3/4/5 etc. The vast majority of Reid's losses happened because he couldn't draw enough lands to play his spells, and then he got blood mooned because he couldn't draw fetchlands. In response, you argued:
I mentioned it multiple times, when you compare all good decks in the meta right now, Jund is definitely one of those which has those issues the most often, and therefore, like I stated, that is not natural variance anymore.
Which is really not that true when you compare it against the most comparable good decks in modern which are mardu (where you might have a point) and control. Control also semi-often bricks on lands and dies, as I stated, and you apparently think that's an obvious and dense thing to state? So then why would you act like this is exclusively a jund problem in the first place. My point here is that watching jund brick on lands and then get blood mooned twice in a row should not make you reach the conclusion "this is a jund problem". The real answer is "this is a midrange/control problem". Mardu being built around faithless looting makes it the only midrange deck that can avoid this problem with some consistency. In fact, sometimes even decks like humans have this problem. No deck in modern is immune from the 'run-bad'.
People are more than allowed to discuss how to improve consistency of the jund deck, and in fact I encourage it. But I think watching jund brick on lands 3/4 and then get blood moon'd signals to me that adjusting the mana base to beat moon and lowering the curve is a much better place to start to address these issues rather than attempting to jam cards that weaken the deck because they improve consistency. If you think the latter is a better method, then I guess more power to you, and if it works I'd be thrilled to hear it. But I would appreciate not jumping on me for making suggestions like 'how about lowering the curve instead' rather than throw my hands up and say 'jund is fundamentally flawed and bad without cheap draw manipulation'.
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Right, I can see 24 lands being fine.
Like I said, with Faithless looting, drawing too many lands/too few become a lot less of a issue as you can just kick them out to the graveyward when they're too many, or dig for more when they're too few.
2x BBE's seems fine in a Faithless Looting. I'm sure we'd still find them quite consistently at the right time and we can always have a 3rd or 4th in the sidebaord for the right matchups.
How do you feel about HUntmaster of the Fells though ?
I think he is often worse than BBE, but he's defnetly A LOT more reliable when it comes to getting vallue out of him. I've been running 1x main deck (I run 3x BBE + 1 of him) and I still love him.
I know I've been insisting on this, but I'm still very un-pleased with the randomness of BBE, at least when we are having to try versions of this deck that arent built around her which lowers the likeability of good hits. Huntmaster is always the first card that comes to my mind when I try to think of a 4cmc card that always have at least paid its bill.
Huntmaster is fine, however, I personally would run extra 4 drops only in the SB now, and depending on the meta its a different one: BBE if the meta is heavy control, Kalitas if the meta is heavy creature based and Hazoret if the meta is more big Mana and combo. Huntmaster is for metas where you have a good mix of those all. So Huntmaster is definitely fine to have.
I never suggested that no one is allowed to raise issues and attempt to address what they see as issues with the jund deck. But if you re-read my original post from yesterday I do see this very much as natural variance for a midrange/control deck, and the best way to address that variance is to lower your curve so you're less reliant on land drops 3/4/5 etc. The vast majority of Reid's losses happened because he couldn't draw enough lands to play his spells, and then he got blood mooned because he couldn't draw fetchlands. In response, you argued:
I mentioned it multiple times, when you compare all good decks in the meta right now, Jund is definitely one of those which has those issues the most often, and therefore, like I stated, that is not natural variance anymore.
Which is really not that true when you compare it against the most comparable good decks in modern which are mardu (where you might have a point) and control. Control also semi-often bricks on lands and dies, as I stated, and you apparently think that's an obvious and dense thing to state? So then why would you act like this is exclusively a jund problem in the first place. My point here is that watching jund brick on lands and then get blood mooned twice in a row should not make you reach the conclusion "this is a jund problem". The real answer is "this is a midrange/control problem". Mardu being built around faithless looting makes it the only midrange deck that can avoid this problem with some consistency. In fact, sometimes even decks like humans have this problem. No deck in modern is immune from the 'run-bad'.
People are more than allowed to discuss how to improve consistency of the jund deck, and in fact I encourage it. But I think watching jund brick on lands 3/4 and then get blood moon'd signals to me that adjusting the mana base to beat moon and lowering the curve is a much better place to start to address these issues rather than attempting to jam cards that weaken the deck because they improve consistency. If you think the latter is a better method, then I guess more power to you, and if it works I'd be thrilled to hear it. But I would appreciate not jumping on me for making suggestions like 'how about lowering the curve instead' rather than throw my hands up and say 'jund is fundamentally flawed and bad without cheap draw manipulation'.
I have to say, I am only aggressive due to your condecending post, which indicates to me that the topic is not been taken seriously.
It is of course not an excusive Jund thing. Of course other control and midrange decks fail at times. But control decks still have enough cantrips and card selection in general to mitigate that effect. Especially chaos plays Jeskai Control for a long time already, so he knows both decks very well. And if he doesn't neglect this statement I think that this is a good indicator that Jund has the bigger problem. Again, its not about a Jund thing. But my point if that Jund has to deal with those issues more than other decks in the format, way more than it should. Linear aggro decks like Humans put you on the backfoot early, so those issues are lower in that deck as the deck. Jeskai has lots of filtering with cards like Serum, Azcanta or carddraw with cryptic or Teferi. Tron is a consistant beast on its own, it also got tons of cantrips. Hollow One has loads of filtering obviously as well. Affinit and Burn are again in the linear aggression type of category and lastly there is mardu. And then there is Jund. It has, 3-4 Bobs? You see my point? The top decks in the format all have some way to increase their consistancy, all except for Jund. Jund has to naturally draw what it needs.
Sure, I agree with you that lowering the curve is absolutely the simple way to go. We are on the same page on that. But I wanted to add, that I don't want to be pinned down on Faithless Looting. It is not my point to say we need looting. It is more about the big picture.
The only problem I consistently ran into with Jeskai was getting land screwed (and by this I mean consistently getting my fourth land on time). I added a 25th land, and all of my problems that were not related to my opponent went away. Jeskai has more than enough ways to filter and dig so getting the spells I could use was never an issue. It was getting enough mana to cast all of them.
Then it sounds like we’re mostly in agreement as far as that’s concerned Delver. I think tracker fixes a lot of the problems that everyone’s complaining about since it’s at its best when you’re flooding, and also is cheaper than BBE so in an emergency you can cast them on 3.
And for the record, I don’t think it’s condescending to point out a relevant fact that people either don’t know or are willfully ignoring for arguments sake.
The only problem I consistently ran into with Jeskai was getting land screwed (and by this I mean consistently getting my fourth land on time). I added a 25th land, and all of my problems that were not related to my opponent went away. Jeskai has more than enough ways to filter and dig so getting the spells I could use was never an issue. It was getting enough mana to cast all of them.
That’s pretty much exactly what I’m getting at. Not drawing enough lands is an almost unavoidable problem that midrange and control decks have and have had for a long time. Not getting to deploy your spells is not so much an argument against jund as it is against playing fair in modern. Mardu is the first midrange deck that can avoid this issue, but it has its own problems.
I personally think unless some really sweet new cantrip comes out in BGR, the best way to approach lack of consistency in jund is to play a lower curve (or more mana, which is likely only feasible with a new, midrangey mana dork) and the most universally powerful spells you can (ie I don’t think 4-of LotV or bob is very good anymore). I’ll just leave it at that.
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Man many times to talk about your avatar Pink Floyd is my favorite band, Rogers Whaters is coming tô Brasil in octuber i go see him for first time. Pink Floyd complet never come to brazil, just waters e gilmour alones.
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Then it sounds like we’re mostly in agreement as far as that’s concerned Delver. I think tracker fixes a lot of the problems that everyone’s complaining about since it’s at its best when you’re flooding, and also is cheaper than BBE so in an emergency you can cast them on 3.
And for the record, I don’t think it’s condescending to point out a relevant fact that people either don’t know or are willfully ignoring for arguments sake.
The only problem I consistently ran into with Jeskai was getting land screwed (and by this I mean consistently getting my fourth land on time). I added a 25th land, and all of my problems that were not related to my opponent went away. Jeskai has more than enough ways to filter and dig so getting the spells I could use was never an issue. It was getting enough mana to cast all of them.
That’s pretty much exactly what I’m getting at. Not drawing enough lands is an almost unavoidable problem that midrange and control decks have and have had for a long time. Not getting to deploy your spells is not so much an argument against jund as it is against playing fair in modern. Mardu is the first midrange deck that can avoid this issue, but it has its own problems.
I personally think unless some really sweet new cantrip comes out in BGR, the best way to approach lack of consistency in jund is to play a lower curve (or more mana, which is likely only feasible with a new, midrangey mana dork) and the most universally powerful spells you can (ie I don’t think 4-of LotV or bob is very good anymore). I’ll just leave it at that.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You're talking about a different issue imo.
Hi there, just a BW tokens player here. I found really interesting this conversation about FL, so I thought I might pitch in as well.
For us, who are the grindiest of grindiness all around the modern format (up to the point to outjund jund itself), card advantage is the main problem we have. Unlike jund lists, we cant afford to play Dark confidants due to the CMC of some of our cards, plus the fact that we are not as aggresive as you are to go against our own clock (I might actually try a build with them, just in case).
They way we deal with this issue is using very versatile and resilient cards. These are basically Lingering souls, Start//Finish, or Collective brutality. This is virtual card advantage and they put you ahead of your opponent.
Using FL is great, but every deck using it has some GY payoff card they can pitch to it. I dont see many of these on jund (other than to grow your goyfs), so if I were to run FL in my jund list, I would probably try to increase that as well. I made the exercise of taking a jund list and including a couple FL (I dont think you want 4 of them anyway), and this was the result:
I dont think it affects the deck that much, other than running 2 BBE instead of 3, and removing the 25th land. KC is the biggest winner here, and claim // fame is just a personal favourite of mine that goes well with almost all of your creatures (KC can get back the BBE).
I have, its been sometimes really great, sometimes quite awkward. I am also not sure what to cut in order to incoorporate it. What do you have in mind?
No one would have considered this a problem worth putting the deck down before mardu, and the only reason anyone is even talking about it now is because people are obsessed with faithless looting.
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But I'd probably start off cutting a couple BBE's. I feel like they get objectivelly worse in a Faithless Looting deck (Since that's a very poor cascade hit.) I can see some BBE's going to the sideboard instead of mainboard so that we have them vs. Blue decks where, IMO, they really shine.
I also dont think its insane running 23/24 lands instead of 24/25 if we're running Faithless Lootings. The card lets you dig for 2 extra cards, which should fix a lot of land issues very often... If we look into Jeskai Control, for instance, they run about the same ammount of lands as us (24/25) and have a MUCH heavier curve (4x Snaps = 3cmc+ cards, 4x Commands = 4cmc each, and 2 Teferis = 5cmc cards. Not to mention 2x verdicts.) and it works out. IMO the reason that works for them is because they have such an easy time selecting their draws with Cantrips so that they can avoid flooding too much while also avoid missing land drops as often as we may do.
cantrips and filtering "unclunk" awkward manabases.
Another card that I could see being a 3x of is LOTV in a Looting deck, idk.
The cool thing about running Faithless Looting IMO is that you can kind-of cut cards and that doesnt mean they wont show up, as often, as you cycle through your deck so much more that its easier to dig copies of the cards you want. I hasnt run the math, but maybe a deck with, say, 3+2 1cmc removals can find them just about as often as a deck with 4+2 but no Looting.
I sometimes play Hollow One (I know, I'm an infidel) and if there is something that the deck has REALLY impressed me with is how you can sideboard just 1 or 2 silver bullets and you'll still very consistently find them just out of how much cycling the deck goes through, that is really awesome when it comes to sidebaording aswell as consistency for a deck.
I think I played the deck long enough to recognize differences in how a deck plays out, thanks for mentioning basic stuff everyone knows. In the past those issues have not been so punishing like now. I don't know how long you played the deck, but this is pretty clear when you compare a typical game of Jund vs any deck in the past (And I mean more than 2 years ago).
I think if you think about this a bit longer, you'll notice that this is not about Mardu. Mardu however is the outcome what happens when consistancy is more important than ever in modern. The format becomes more and more punishing for stumbling. Jund as a deck basically does not evolve or improve as much as to keep up with the increasing powerlevel of newly discovered decks.
However, if you still think this is just natural variance and thats it for you then its all fine. I personally think that addressing issues which are justified by proper argumentation (which I and others like chaos very well did) should be accepted as well so that we are able to discuss about them. If you don't want to contribute other than saying its not an issue (without reasonable arguments on why or without just calling this ranting), then very well for you, but then I may ask you to simply not join the discussion about that specific topic. After all this is an open forum where any ontopic issue should be accepted to brought to the table, as long as its backed up by proper argumentation.
Yes, Reid's play was questionable at times through that video in my personal opinion. I still think he knows the deck and his opponent's deck better than I would on an average day, and it's so much easier to be a backseat pilot. The other part that you're forgetting is that FlyingDelver and I play this deck a lot. I'm talking online and in paper for myself. This isn't a conclusion I came to after having one bad day.
I agree with that, its exactly what I also trying to say through multiple posts now. Its not a "having one bad day" kind of thing.
We're a Red, Green and Black deck.
So far, the Diagnosis of us, Jund players, have been that the deck needs better filtering and card selection so that we dont Flood/Clunk as much aswell as to avoid relying so much on just top-decking our way out of situations.
The usual consensus is that decks with good Filtering/Cycling/Cantrips are the way to fix that issue.
Faithless Looting is just the natural first card to come to mind.
I think cutting BBE makes very much sense, at least down to 2 copies or so. However, I would stay at 24 lands probably. I think 24 lands is already pretty tight right now, so we want the lands to actually hit landdrops, but looting would after that help getting rid of excess ones.
Like I said, with Faithless looting, drawing too many lands/too few become a lot less of a issue as you can just kick them out to the graveyward when they're too many, or dig for more when they're too few.
2x BBE's seems fine in a Faithless Looting. I'm sure we'd still find them quite consistently at the right time and we can always have a 3rd or 4th in the sidebaord for the right matchups.
How do you feel about HUntmaster of the Fells though ?
I think he is often worse than BBE, but he's defnetly A LOT more reliable when it comes to getting vallue out of him. I've been running 1x main deck (I run 3x BBE + 1 of him) and I still love him.
I know I've been insisting on this, but I'm still very un-pleased with the randomness of BBE, at least when we are having to try versions of this deck that arent built around her which lowers the likeability of good hits. Huntmaster is always the first card that comes to my mind when I try to think of a 4cmc card that always have at least paid its bill.
I never suggested that no one is allowed to raise issues and attempt to address what they see as issues with the jund deck. But if you re-read my original post from yesterday I do see this very much as natural variance for a midrange/control deck, and the best way to address that variance is to lower your curve so you're less reliant on land drops 3/4/5 etc. The vast majority of Reid's losses happened because he couldn't draw enough lands to play his spells, and then he got blood mooned because he couldn't draw fetchlands. In response, you argued:
Which is really not that true when you compare it against the most comparable good decks in modern which are mardu (where you might have a point) and control. Control also semi-often bricks on lands and dies, as I stated, and you apparently think that's an obvious and dense thing to state? So then why would you act like this is exclusively a jund problem in the first place. My point here is that watching jund brick on lands and then get blood mooned twice in a row should not make you reach the conclusion "this is a jund problem". The real answer is "this is a midrange/control problem". Mardu being built around faithless looting makes it the only midrange deck that can avoid this problem with some consistency. In fact, sometimes even decks like humans have this problem. No deck in modern is immune from the 'run-bad'.
People are more than allowed to discuss how to improve consistency of the jund deck, and in fact I encourage it. But I think watching jund brick on lands 3/4 and then get blood moon'd signals to me that adjusting the mana base to beat moon and lowering the curve is a much better place to start to address these issues rather than attempting to jam cards that weaken the deck because they improve consistency. If you think the latter is a better method, then I guess more power to you, and if it works I'd be thrilled to hear it. But I would appreciate not jumping on me for making suggestions like 'how about lowering the curve instead' rather than throw my hands up and say 'jund is fundamentally flawed and bad without cheap draw manipulation'.
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Huntmaster is fine, however, I personally would run extra 4 drops only in the SB now, and depending on the meta its a different one: BBE if the meta is heavy control, Kalitas if the meta is heavy creature based and Hazoret if the meta is more big Mana and combo. Huntmaster is for metas where you have a good mix of those all. So Huntmaster is definitely fine to have.
I have to say, I am only aggressive due to your condecending post, which indicates to me that the topic is not been taken seriously.
It is of course not an excusive Jund thing. Of course other control and midrange decks fail at times. But control decks still have enough cantrips and card selection in general to mitigate that effect. Especially chaos plays Jeskai Control for a long time already, so he knows both decks very well. And if he doesn't neglect this statement I think that this is a good indicator that Jund has the bigger problem. Again, its not about a Jund thing. But my point if that Jund has to deal with those issues more than other decks in the format, way more than it should. Linear aggro decks like Humans put you on the backfoot early, so those issues are lower in that deck as the deck. Jeskai has lots of filtering with cards like Serum, Azcanta or carddraw with cryptic or Teferi. Tron is a consistant beast on its own, it also got tons of cantrips. Hollow One has loads of filtering obviously as well. Affinit and Burn are again in the linear aggression type of category and lastly there is mardu. And then there is Jund. It has, 3-4 Bobs? You see my point? The top decks in the format all have some way to increase their consistancy, all except for Jund. Jund has to naturally draw what it needs.
Sure, I agree with you that lowering the curve is absolutely the simple way to go. We are on the same page on that. But I wanted to add, that I don't want to be pinned down on Faithless Looting. It is not my point to say we need looting. It is more about the big picture.
And for the record, I don’t think it’s condescending to point out a relevant fact that people either don’t know or are willfully ignoring for arguments sake.
That’s pretty much exactly what I’m getting at. Not drawing enough lands is an almost unavoidable problem that midrange and control decks have and have had for a long time. Not getting to deploy your spells is not so much an argument against jund as it is against playing fair in modern. Mardu is the first midrange deck that can avoid this issue, but it has its own problems.
I personally think unless some really sweet new cantrip comes out in BGR, the best way to approach lack of consistency in jund is to play a lower curve (or more mana, which is likely only feasible with a new, midrangey mana dork) and the most universally powerful spells you can (ie I don’t think 4-of LotV or bob is very good anymore). I’ll just leave it at that.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You're talking about a different issue imo.
How would you sb vs merfolk, death/taxes, and blue moon? Thanks a ton!
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
For us, who are the grindiest of grindiness all around the modern format (up to the point to outjund jund itself), card advantage is the main problem we have. Unlike jund lists, we cant afford to play Dark confidants due to the CMC of some of our cards, plus the fact that we are not as aggresive as you are to go against our own clock (I might actually try a build with them, just in case).
They way we deal with this issue is using very versatile and resilient cards. These are basically Lingering souls, Start//Finish, or Collective brutality. This is virtual card advantage and they put you ahead of your opponent.
Using FL is great, but every deck using it has some GY payoff card they can pitch to it. I dont see many of these on jund (other than to grow your goyfs), so if I were to run FL in my jund list, I would probably try to increase that as well. I made the exercise of taking a jund list and including a couple FL (I dont think you want 4 of them anyway), and this was the result:
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
THREATS
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Faithless Looting
1 Claim // Fame
LANDS
1 Twilight Mire
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
I dont think it affects the deck that much, other than running 2 BBE instead of 3, and removing the 25th land. KC is the biggest winner here, and claim // fame is just a personal favourite of mine that goes well with almost all of your creatures (KC can get back the BBE).
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Merfolk:
-3 IOK
-3 TS
-1 LoTV
+2 Anger
+1 EE
+2 CB
+1 LtLH
+1 Kalitas
DnT:
-3 IOK
-1 TS
-2 LoTV
+2 Anger
+1 LtLH
+1 Kalitas
+2 CB
Blue Moon:
-2 Bolt
-1 Push
-1 Terminate
+2 CB
+1 Hazoret
+1 LtLH
I think compared to this version you could just play Abzan and have Souls, right?
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
Creatures [15]
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope