Duress is phenomenal. I added one awhile back, thinking it would be a broad but lackluster inclusion. Now I can’t imagine not having one in the board. It feels really great against Big Mana (especially Valakut decks where preserving your life total could very well buy you an additional turn), amazing against Control, fantastic against burn, and is important reiteration against combo decks, including Infect. It doesn’t seem like much, but when you add your 7th targeted discard (and possibly 8th or 9th alongside Brutality) in the MUs where you need it, that redundancy just feels really good. And while I partially agree with Delver about discard vs. Big Mana, I think that it’s kind of an oversimplification to say that they can topdeck what they need through your discard. Against those decks it’s all about buying yourself enough time to Goyf them to the face. Taking one of their Scapeshifts and forcing them to find more is a great way to do that. Taking their turn-two ramp spell when you’re on the draw before they get to their second turn is a great way to do that. No, picking apart their hand won’t win you the game, eventually they’ll draw out of it, but all you need it to do is to buy your Goyf just enough time. That’s it. And I think targeted discard does a great job of this. Tron is a different story... they’re always going to find their fatties. Such is life. Also, not that this will come up all that often, but remember that if you can get them hellbent (with the help of discard), K-Command can discard their amazing topdeck before they get a chance to use it
There’s another Jund player at my local LGS that’s been trying to get me to try Pithing Needle for a couple of weeks now. I gotta say, after watching him use it against UW Control, I’m almost convinced. I think it’s a great reactive card against Control (I know, generally we don’t want to be reactive against them), naming any number of their Planeswalkers, Azcanta, or Colonnade.
Rakdos Charm does have a few things going for it. It attacks both Hollow One’s graveyard-centric and non-graveyard-centric strategies (shattering Hollow One). Same goes for KCI. You can exile their graveyard mid-combo or shatter their KCI or Scrap Trawler. Against Mardu it’s also a multifaceted card, exiling their graveyard pre-Reveler, or ending the game with the reach from its other, seldom used mode. Against those three decks I really like it. Most everywhere else it’s a little weaker than your other options. But that’s kind of the price you pay for most modal cards.
I thought about running 4x Fulminators myself, but decided that while three of them were often still warranted in the MUs where they were just ok, the fourth one would get boarded in in far fewer matches. It still wouldn’t be that hard to convince me to run a fourth, because I love blowing up lands against Control.
All this was typed on my phone, so there’s probably a bunch of errors. I’ll fix ‘em later.
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You're right that discard is weak versus the topdecking big mana decks. In regards to Duress/Thoughtseize, I was thinking the goal was to try and make tempo positive plays early on in order to try and turn the corner as early as possible. While typing this response up and looking at what dannyg had to say, I'm almost beginning to talk myself into just punting this matchup all together. Seems a bit futile. I should probably just try to shore up my 50% matchups instead of worrying about adding 5% to a 30/70 big mana matchup.
Either way, thanks to both of you for your thoughts <3
Absolutely, discard is there to generate tempo against Big Mana. However, thats why we absolutely need a clock vs them. Discard without a clock is useless, and thats the main point to keep in mind.
If beating big mana is your problem then I don’t really understand why everyone has just thrown away damping sphere. The card is great against tron, and it hoses the two most relevant dedicated combo decks in modern right now (storm and KCI). Isn’t that right in line with what you want?
The more modern I play, the more I’ve come to realize that boarding to gain marginal edges is not the way to be in modern. You only have 15 spots, and they should mostly all be bombs when they land. For that reason I wouldn’t play duress in the board.
It depends on the whole meta. First of all, it depends on how present Tron actually is. Do you expect it in the first few rounds of a tournament only or are you expecting it in the later rounds (specifically in rounds 4+ in GPs) as well? If you only expect it in the first few rounds because it has a tough matchup against the best decks in the format (which would be the reason to not expect it later since those best decks are statistically winning more, and Tron has a harder and harder time if it advances) I think you can more or less ignore it. I am not sure if that is the case though.
For the overall meta, you can also keep in mind the actualy percentage share of Tron as a whole. Even if you expect it later in the tournament, is it actually played much?
And finally, it depends on the other decks of the format. Right now I personally am absolutely high on being able to beat Jeskai Control, Hollow One, Humans and having a decent amount of game against Mardu. Against all those matchups Damping Sphere is useless. Damping Sphere is a good card, but tbh KCI and Storm are not the decks I expect the most (in general, it might be that you are attending a tournament where you know Storm and KCI are particularly present). Our Storm matchup is very winnable in the first place as well, and that without Sphere. The first subsitution of including Sphere would be to cut Fulminator. And when looking at Fulminator, we can see its fantastic against Control. I personally think it really adds some precious win% points for that matchup. Especially when considering that sometimes we do still run 3 BBE only. We need to win that matchup more than we need Sphere against Tron is my conclusion.
Lastly, the question also remains whether Sphere actually helps winning the MU? I am not so sure about that.
And while I partially agree with Delver about discard vs. Big Mana, I think that it’s kind of an oversimplification to say that they can topdeck what they need through your discard. Against those decks it’s all about buying yourself enough time to Goyf them to the face. Taking one of their Scapeshifts and forcing them to find more is a great way to do that. Taking their turn-two ramp spell when you’re on the draw before they get to their second turn is a great way to do that. No, picking apart their hand won’t win you the game, eventually they’ll draw out of it, but all you need it to do is to buy your Goyf just enough time. That’s it. And I think targeted discard does a great job of this. Tron is a different story... they’re always going to find their fatties. Such is life. Also, not that this will come up all that often, but remember that if you can get them hellbent (with the help of discard), K-Command can discard their amazing topdeck before they get a chance to use it
It requires a clock for discard to be effective. Discard alone is not good enough. So yeah, discard is still a valuable tool, but speaking of individual powerlevel its not that great if you don't combine it with a clock.
@FlyingDelver I don’t think anything you said is necessarily wrong, but the context of my comment was in reply to “I want 1 card to board in vs combo and big mana”, and I happen to think damping sphere fits that request perfectly. In general though yes I agree that fulminator is a better sideboard option.
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@FlyingDelver I don’t think anything you said is necessarily wrong, but the context of my comment was in reply to “I want 1 card to board in vs combo and big mana”, and I happen to think damping sphere fits that request perfectly. In general though yes I agree that fulminator is a better sideboard option.
MCR didn't say to want a card both good against Big Mana and Combo. It was just requested which card would be best for Big Mana specifically and for which reason I argumented that way.
And while I partially agree with Delver about discard vs. Big Mana, I think that it’s kind of an oversimplification to say that they can topdeck what they need through your discard. Against those decks it’s all about buying yourself enough time to Goyf them to the face. Taking one of their Scapeshifts and forcing them to find more is a great way to do that. Taking their turn-two ramp spell when you’re on the draw before they get to their second turn is a great way to do that. No, picking apart their hand won’t win you the game, eventually they’ll draw out of it, but all you need it to do is to buy your Goyf just enough time. That’s it. And I think targeted discard does a great job of this. Tron is a different story... they’re always going to find their fatties. Such is life. Also, not that this will come up all that often, but remember that if you can get them hellbent (with the help of discard), K-Command can discard their amazing topdeck before they get a chance to use it
It requires a clock for discard to be effective. Discard alone is not good enough. So yeah, discard is still a valuable tool, but speaking of individual powerlevel its not that great if you don't combine it with a clock.
I agree 100%. Man, really now the entirety of the field requires that of us. That is, a clock right beside our disruption. Everyone is doing really powerful things and there’s just too much pure and/or virtual CA, as well as draw-fixing, to effectively take the pure Control stance. We literally HAVE TO land a threat, disrupt their game plan just enough, and beat them down before they can get there first. I’ve been seeing these more traditional Jund lists without Grim Flayer and I’m kind of envious and would like to go back to that (especially since I feel strongly that they have a better grind game), but Flayer just increases the consistency of having keepable hands of said threat+disruption.
I really like playing the Control and Mardu MUs because I get to play Jund in a more traditional way. Mardu doesn’t turn the corner very well (and by that I mean very quickly) and neither does Control. I love games where just grinding harder than you opponent gets you there.
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My list is very simar to delver list: https://deckstats.net/decks/74507/1015084-jundbraid
I need some help, especially with the side.
my meta is a bit complicated:
- Valakut
- Company decks
- burn
- humans
- tokens
- mirror
- Storm
- jeskai
- agros swarm, like bushwaker zoo and mono red
I think I’m the only poster actively and seriously testing tracker jund at the moment.
The main advantage is that you have a more reliable card advantage engine. That frees up a good chunk of maindeck space for cheap interaction. The deck feels a touch more like Mardu Pyromancer in that respect; lots of cheap interaction followed by tracker rather than reveler. You also get to play fewer creatures and more answers since all of your creatures apply significant pressure.
The main disadvantage is that choosing to play tracker as the pseudo 4-drop of choice means you have a less aggressive curve. As a consequence your clock might be a turn slower. Similarly because tracker is a mana sink I find it appealing to lower your curve to maximize your ability to crack several clues and cast a spell when you need to dig for answers.
All in all I think it’s shown me a lot of merit and I think it’s a very worthwhile build to test. I’m still tweaking here and there and re-learning some matchups given that this version is so different from traditional jund. One thing I’ve noticed is that tracker jund slam dunks on control decks. I’ve felt firmly in the drivers seat of every control matchup I’ve played.
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I've tested Tireless Tracker and have liked it a lot. The problem is that it is a very slow engine. Against decks like Tron, where you're trying to get there asap, I think it's really questionable. It really shines in the grindier (midrange and control) matches.
EDIT: I don't think I would ever cut Dark Confidant in general. I can see trimming some number, but if I'm at the point of cutting them altogether, I think I'd rather play a different deck.
I've tested Tireless Tracker and have liked it a lot. The problem is that it is a very slow engine. Against decks like Tron, where you're trying to get there asap, I think it's really questionable. It really shines in the grindier (midrange and control) matches.
EDIT: I don't think I would ever cut Dark Confidant in general. I can see trimming some number, but if I'm at the point of cutting them altogether, I think I'd rather play a different deck.
Yeah, I think I’m probably with you there. The power-creep will be pretty ******* tangible whenever Bob becomes generally underpowered. Cutting one has felt pretty good though. I’ve been running him as a three-of for awhile now and I haven’t missed the fourth nor have I ever wanted less than the third.
I want to know if there’s a middle ground with Tracker. I’d like to include her as a one-of in either “Fast Jund” or the more traditional builds, but I can’t figure out how to make it work. I really don’t want to change the curve and I feel strongly that I’m maxed out in the three-drop slot in my 24-land build with 8x total three-drops. One of them would have to go to fit Tracker in the 60. And forget losing a BBE. There’s no way in hell I’m running less than three right now.
Has anyone tried running her in a regular build instead of a dedicated one? I think instead of slowing down the clock like she does in a dedicated build she could speed it up a little by following a two-drop threat or just adding threat density in general, while also helping add to the grind game.
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This league showed a lot of Jund's current weaknesses. He was simply too often dependent on his topdeck, but he also had some unlucky draws, especially R1 and 2.
So let me just highlight some problems what happened during that series:
Having 25 lands in the deck, first hand contains 6 lands and a spell, shipping it back and now you have a one lander (I would probably also mull that hand, its just too risky in my experience). Or in the second game, only drawing 2 lands and then being stuck with 2 BBEs, KCommands in hand. Thats the prime example for me why Jund looses to itself. And sadly enough, thats exactly what I always mean when I talk negatively about Jund. Its bad, I know, but this issues aren't just variance issues anymore, of all Jund decks being on camera, I bet I can find more of those situations than there should be. And I personally can just not get the "we need to play differently approach" people say (like being more aggressive ala Jadine) which is just not possible if the deck doesn't allow it. In those situations it ultimately doesn't matter if you play 3 or 4 Bobs, 3 or 4 BBEs or 24 or 25 lands. Those little changes don't help with this big problem. And this is very frustrating for my part at least.
The only thing which seemed to helped a little was the inclusion of Grim Flayer. And even Control being very high right now, I would not drop those atm. Its just so important to at least have a little bit possible filtering and selection to at least hit your landdrops or prevent you from flooding.
In game 1 in that second match it also clearly states that keeping a hand with LoTV as real threats is also very risky right now. Thats also why I am questioning LoTV in general right now, I do think she is on her low powerlevel right now. After that, BBE cascaded into Push, which was basically useless. Also an issue I have noticed, its the issue I addressed as "our removalsuite is not interchangeable and redundant anymore". Game 2 was just a big punt by not playing Blackcleave on turn 1 against a "1 drop into 3 drop" curve type of deck while holding bolt. If he had have done that, LtLH would have been on the BF before BM came down and prob win that game. And I personally think that deck was not a difficult deck to beat in general.
In match 3, statistically speaking, I really don't understand why to play Bob over Goyf turn 2 otp. Its the best chance at beating the deck. Its pressure that is needed. Technically his decision was right due to the push, but I would actually not expect one from a Tron deck right now, so I think statistically it would have been better to play goyf. However, the turn after that the second Bob over Goyf is exceptionally strange for me, what do you guys think about that? I mean exposing our worst clock to their PWs or removal which they have is not the strategy I have in mind, I think its more a "I play the best clock I have and hope to fade their PWs" type of play that has the best results against Tron. I mean maybe I am wrong, but thats what I think about that matchup. In game 2 Reid had again mana issues, as bob did not draw into a fourth land twice and after that the draw was into a Blackcleave Cliffs which comes into play tapped.
Its sadly exactly how my experience with Jund has shaped up lately. Consider me being too negative, but thats what I like to explain everyone how I have been experiencing the deck.
At the risk of sounding like an apologist or something, that has less to do with true weaknesses of jund and much more to do with the innate resource variance of magic. Two of Reid’s losses were almost 100% due to never drawing lands or getting the right lands to beat a blood moon? I’m pretty sure every deck in modern occasionally loses to those scenarios.
I do think though that builds like Reid’s which play 4 BBE lend themselves to run-bad moments like that. With 25 lands reaching land number 3 should be trivial. Land number 4 though can definitely be missed, and when you have 3 BBEs in hand it sucks. You just can’t really afford to stumble like that in modern.
At the risk of sounding like an apologist or something, that has less to do with true weaknesses of jund and much more to do with the innate resource variance of magic. Two of Reid’s losses were almost 100% due to never drawing lands or getting the right lands to beat a blood moon? I’m pretty sure every deck in modern occasionally loses to those scenarios.
I do think though that builds like Reid’s which play 4 BBE lend themselves to run-bad moments like that. With 25 lands reaching land number 3 should be trivial. Land number 4 though can definitely be missed, and when you have 3 BBEs in hand it sucks. You just can’t really afford to stumble like that in modern.
I am sorry but this is not what I mean by this, and I heard that argument a dozen times now. I mentioned it multiple times, when you compare all good decks in the meta right now, Jund is definitely one of those which has those issues the most often, and therefore, like I stated, that is not natural variance anymore. If I more often loose a game because my own deck does not function well enough, then there is a problem. Normally the format would be forgiving enough to make up for those variances (and of course sometimes you loose because of them) but if lets say in every second game I play at least one of those issues I stated really have a big impact on whether I loose or win, then there is something fundamentally wrong going on. And thats what I always wanted to say. However, it always gets written of by calling that "natural variance", which it actually isn't in my personal experience. I get that every deck has its own variances and sometimes you just loose due to flooding or screw, but if the frequency is that high (and in my experience it has been in every other game I played) then I think I have enough reason to be concerned and I think its a justified issue to state. Like you said, you cant afford to stumble in modern. That is the single reason why Jund is having a hard time in my mind. Linear aggro decks or decks which are able to filter through draws are better suited atm. And I am sorry, but this is definitely not natural variance anymore like you claim.
I literally said something similar and @Tempest jumped all over me saying "if you hate Jund so much, why even post here?" Jund has a problem with not being able to smooth out its draws or find a competitive level of consistency. It's been an issue I've been trying to tackle for well over a year. All of the ways we could develop that consistency either require dropping the third color (red), using a different third color, playing cards that generally slow the deck down or do things that are distasteful for the deck's strategy/philosophy/whatever you want to call it. The problem is real. It's not just variance.
Sure, we could get lucky and just get the match ups we want. Even then, there's still a good chance our deck just fails us. Something about that isn't right.
Oh man, here we go again. Looks to me like he chose a clunky (and quite possibly outdated) 60 to combat Control, then drew like **** (quite possibly due in part to the clunkiness of the 60), then played it like it was the Jund of yore.
Discard/Removal —> Threat —> Control —> BBE/More Control/More Threats/etc has been working just fine for me. I run a higher density of threats and a lower density of clunk (but still enough to have some grind) and I’ve been doing just fine. And I play real threats on turn-2. Not Bobs.
The dude/deck sucks it up for 5 rounds on MTGO and now we’re gonna have three pages of how ‘Jund is obsolete, just look at the insurmountable evidence’ to wade through.
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Have anyone tried running a list with Faithless Looting yet ? While trimming down 1 or 2 BBE's + 1 or 2 lands for them ?
Seems like we do need something to make us more consistent on what we find and when.
Ever since BBE got unbanned, as powerful of a card as it is, Ive been very unimpressed.
When I make more threat-heavy, fast Jund versions I feel like my BBE's fail me a lot.
When I make 25 lands with lots of powerful BBE findings I feel like my deck gets clunky.
Sometimes I really just miss running a Jund with no 4 drops or with just a huntmaster or two and thats it.
I agree with Delver in that Flayer is where we should be right now. My list looks extremely similar to Reid's "Fast Jund" list, and I've been loving it.
Speaking of Reid, does anyone know if he is competing at GP Vegas? Haven't gotten a chance to watch the video he just posted. Good luck to anyone on the board who is Jund'ing em this weekend.
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There’s another Jund player at my local LGS that’s been trying to get me to try Pithing Needle for a couple of weeks now. I gotta say, after watching him use it against UW Control, I’m almost convinced. I think it’s a great reactive card against Control (I know, generally we don’t want to be reactive against them), naming any number of their Planeswalkers, Azcanta, or Colonnade.
Rakdos Charm does have a few things going for it. It attacks both Hollow One’s graveyard-centric and non-graveyard-centric strategies (shattering Hollow One). Same goes for KCI. You can exile their graveyard mid-combo or shatter their KCI or Scrap Trawler. Against Mardu it’s also a multifaceted card, exiling their graveyard pre-Reveler, or ending the game with the reach from its other, seldom used mode. Against those three decks I really like it. Most everywhere else it’s a little weaker than your other options. But that’s kind of the price you pay for most modal cards.
I thought about running 4x Fulminators myself, but decided that while three of them were often still warranted in the MUs where they were just ok, the fourth one would get boarded in in far fewer matches. It still wouldn’t be that hard to convince me to run a fourth, because I love blowing up lands against Control.
All this was typed on my phone, so there’s probably a bunch of errors. I’ll fix ‘em later.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Lands 25
2 Swamp
2 forest
1 twilight mire
4 blackcleave cliffs
2 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 blood crypt
1 Treetop Village
3 raging ravine
1 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 verdant catacombs
Creatures 14
4 dark confidant
2 scavenging ooze
4 tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Other 21
3 lightning bolt
2 maelstrom pulse
2 kolaghan’s command
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the veil
1 Fatal Push
1 terminate
1 abrupt decay
1 LTLH
Sideboard 15
2 collective brutality
2 kitchen finks
2 ancient grudge
3 fulminator mage
1 Anger of the gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 grim lavamncer
2 Tirelles Tracker
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Absolutely, discard is there to generate tempo against Big Mana. However, thats why we absolutely need a clock vs them. Discard without a clock is useless, and thats the main point to keep in mind.
It depends on the whole meta. First of all, it depends on how present Tron actually is. Do you expect it in the first few rounds of a tournament only or are you expecting it in the later rounds (specifically in rounds 4+ in GPs) as well? If you only expect it in the first few rounds because it has a tough matchup against the best decks in the format (which would be the reason to not expect it later since those best decks are statistically winning more, and Tron has a harder and harder time if it advances) I think you can more or less ignore it. I am not sure if that is the case though.
For the overall meta, you can also keep in mind the actualy percentage share of Tron as a whole. Even if you expect it later in the tournament, is it actually played much?
And finally, it depends on the other decks of the format. Right now I personally am absolutely high on being able to beat Jeskai Control, Hollow One, Humans and having a decent amount of game against Mardu. Against all those matchups Damping Sphere is useless. Damping Sphere is a good card, but tbh KCI and Storm are not the decks I expect the most (in general, it might be that you are attending a tournament where you know Storm and KCI are particularly present). Our Storm matchup is very winnable in the first place as well, and that without Sphere. The first subsitution of including Sphere would be to cut Fulminator. And when looking at Fulminator, we can see its fantastic against Control. I personally think it really adds some precious win% points for that matchup. Especially when considering that sometimes we do still run 3 BBE only. We need to win that matchup more than we need Sphere against Tron is my conclusion.
Lastly, the question also remains whether Sphere actually helps winning the MU? I am not so sure about that.
It requires a clock for discard to be effective. Discard alone is not good enough. So yeah, discard is still a valuable tool, but speaking of individual powerlevel its not that great if you don't combine it with a clock.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
MCR didn't say to want a card both good against Big Mana and Combo. It was just requested which card would be best for Big Mana specifically and for which reason I argumented that way.
I agree 100%. Man, really now the entirety of the field requires that of us. That is, a clock right beside our disruption. Everyone is doing really powerful things and there’s just too much pure and/or virtual CA, as well as draw-fixing, to effectively take the pure Control stance. We literally HAVE TO land a threat, disrupt their game plan just enough, and beat them down before they can get there first. I’ve been seeing these more traditional Jund lists without Grim Flayer and I’m kind of envious and would like to go back to that (especially since I feel strongly that they have a better grind game), but Flayer just increases the consistency of having keepable hands of said threat+disruption.
I really like playing the Control and Mardu MUs because I get to play Jund in a more traditional way. Mardu doesn’t turn the corner very well (and by that I mean very quickly) and neither does Control. I love games where just grinding harder than you opponent gets you there.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
https://deckstats.net/decks/74507/1015084-jundbraid
I need some help, especially with the side.
my meta is a bit complicated:
- Valakut
- Company decks
- burn
- humans
- tokens
- mirror
- Storm
- jeskai
- agros swarm, like bushwaker zoo and mono red
The main advantage is that you have a more reliable card advantage engine. That frees up a good chunk of maindeck space for cheap interaction. The deck feels a touch more like Mardu Pyromancer in that respect; lots of cheap interaction followed by tracker rather than reveler. You also get to play fewer creatures and more answers since all of your creatures apply significant pressure.
The main disadvantage is that choosing to play tracker as the pseudo 4-drop of choice means you have a less aggressive curve. As a consequence your clock might be a turn slower. Similarly because tracker is a mana sink I find it appealing to lower your curve to maximize your ability to crack several clues and cast a spell when you need to dig for answers.
All in all I think it’s shown me a lot of merit and I think it’s a very worthwhile build to test. I’m still tweaking here and there and re-learning some matchups given that this version is so different from traditional jund. One thing I’ve noticed is that tracker jund slam dunks on control decks. I’ve felt firmly in the drivers seat of every control matchup I’ve played.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
EDIT: I don't think I would ever cut Dark Confidant in general. I can see trimming some number, but if I'm at the point of cutting them altogether, I think I'd rather play a different deck.
Yeah, I think I’m probably with you there. The power-creep will be pretty ******* tangible whenever Bob becomes generally underpowered. Cutting one has felt pretty good though. I’ve been running him as a three-of for awhile now and I haven’t missed the fourth nor have I ever wanted less than the third.
I want to know if there’s a middle ground with Tracker. I’d like to include her as a one-of in either “Fast Jund” or the more traditional builds, but I can’t figure out how to make it work. I really don’t want to change the curve and I feel strongly that I’m maxed out in the three-drop slot in my 24-land build with 8x total three-drops. One of them would have to go to fit Tracker in the 60. And forget losing a BBE. There’s no way in hell I’m running less than three right now.
Has anyone tried running her in a regular build instead of a dedicated one? I think instead of slowing down the clock like she does in a dedicated build she could speed it up a little by following a two-drop threat or just adding threat density in general, while also helping add to the grind game.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
The master post again today!
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Ouch. That one was a little tough to watch.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
So let me just highlight some problems what happened during that series:
Having 25 lands in the deck, first hand contains 6 lands and a spell, shipping it back and now you have a one lander (I would probably also mull that hand, its just too risky in my experience). Or in the second game, only drawing 2 lands and then being stuck with 2 BBEs, KCommands in hand. Thats the prime example for me why Jund looses to itself. And sadly enough, thats exactly what I always mean when I talk negatively about Jund. Its bad, I know, but this issues aren't just variance issues anymore, of all Jund decks being on camera, I bet I can find more of those situations than there should be. And I personally can just not get the "we need to play differently approach" people say (like being more aggressive ala Jadine) which is just not possible if the deck doesn't allow it. In those situations it ultimately doesn't matter if you play 3 or 4 Bobs, 3 or 4 BBEs or 24 or 25 lands. Those little changes don't help with this big problem. And this is very frustrating for my part at least.
The only thing which seemed to helped a little was the inclusion of Grim Flayer. And even Control being very high right now, I would not drop those atm. Its just so important to at least have a little bit possible filtering and selection to at least hit your landdrops or prevent you from flooding.
In game 1 in that second match it also clearly states that keeping a hand with LoTV as real threats is also very risky right now. Thats also why I am questioning LoTV in general right now, I do think she is on her low powerlevel right now. After that, BBE cascaded into Push, which was basically useless. Also an issue I have noticed, its the issue I addressed as "our removalsuite is not interchangeable and redundant anymore". Game 2 was just a big punt by not playing Blackcleave on turn 1 against a "1 drop into 3 drop" curve type of deck while holding bolt. If he had have done that, LtLH would have been on the BF before BM came down and prob win that game. And I personally think that deck was not a difficult deck to beat in general.
In match 3, statistically speaking, I really don't understand why to play Bob over Goyf turn 2 otp. Its the best chance at beating the deck. Its pressure that is needed. Technically his decision was right due to the push, but I would actually not expect one from a Tron deck right now, so I think statistically it would have been better to play goyf. However, the turn after that the second Bob over Goyf is exceptionally strange for me, what do you guys think about that? I mean exposing our worst clock to their PWs or removal which they have is not the strategy I have in mind, I think its more a "I play the best clock I have and hope to fade their PWs" type of play that has the best results against Tron. I mean maybe I am wrong, but thats what I think about that matchup. In game 2 Reid had again mana issues, as bob did not draw into a fourth land twice and after that the draw was into a Blackcleave Cliffs which comes into play tapped.
Its sadly exactly how my experience with Jund has shaped up lately. Consider me being too negative, but thats what I like to explain everyone how I have been experiencing the deck.
I do think though that builds like Reid’s which play 4 BBE lend themselves to run-bad moments like that. With 25 lands reaching land number 3 should be trivial. Land number 4 though can definitely be missed, and when you have 3 BBEs in hand it sucks. You just can’t really afford to stumble like that in modern.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I am sorry but this is not what I mean by this, and I heard that argument a dozen times now. I mentioned it multiple times, when you compare all good decks in the meta right now, Jund is definitely one of those which has those issues the most often, and therefore, like I stated, that is not natural variance anymore. If I more often loose a game because my own deck does not function well enough, then there is a problem. Normally the format would be forgiving enough to make up for those variances (and of course sometimes you loose because of them) but if lets say in every second game I play at least one of those issues I stated really have a big impact on whether I loose or win, then there is something fundamentally wrong going on. And thats what I always wanted to say. However, it always gets written of by calling that "natural variance", which it actually isn't in my personal experience. I get that every deck has its own variances and sometimes you just loose due to flooding or screw, but if the frequency is that high (and in my experience it has been in every other game I played) then I think I have enough reason to be concerned and I think its a justified issue to state. Like you said, you cant afford to stumble in modern. That is the single reason why Jund is having a hard time in my mind. Linear aggro decks or decks which are able to filter through draws are better suited atm. And I am sorry, but this is definitely not natural variance anymore like you claim.
Sure, we could get lucky and just get the match ups we want. Even then, there's still a good chance our deck just fails us. Something about that isn't right.
Discard/Removal —> Threat —> Control —> BBE/More Control/More Threats/etc has been working just fine for me. I run a higher density of threats and a lower density of clunk (but still enough to have some grind) and I’ve been doing just fine. And I play real threats on turn-2. Not Bobs.
The dude/deck sucks it up for 5 rounds on MTGO and now we’re gonna have three pages of how ‘Jund is obsolete, just look at the insurmountable evidence’ to wade through.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Seems like we do need something to make us more consistent on what we find and when.
Ever since BBE got unbanned, as powerful of a card as it is, Ive been very unimpressed.
When I make more threat-heavy, fast Jund versions I feel like my BBE's fail me a lot.
When I make 25 lands with lots of powerful BBE findings I feel like my deck gets clunky.
Sometimes I really just miss running a Jund with no 4 drops or with just a huntmaster or two and thats it.
Speaking of Reid, does anyone know if he is competing at GP Vegas? Haven't gotten a chance to watch the video he just posted. Good luck to anyone on the board who is Jund'ing em this weekend.