Guys, there is a new Jund video available by Reid Duke in which he lowered his curve and tried some new things. It is not listed on Youtube (don't ask me why) but here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSE9oA2utso
Awesome, thanks for sharing the link!
Seems Reid Duke has come to similar conclusions we have, which again confirms we are quite discussing in a constructive way, I really like that.
this is a cool build. it almost resemble the abzan list that he took in Protour. will give this a try.
I don't like 4 Ravines in his manabase though. The games really show its light on black mana. With 24 lands and 4 of them being Ravine, 2 being Forest and 1 being Stomping Ground, there aren't enough black sources (only 17). I would really cut the fourth ravine and add another black source for it.
Not sure I like Reid's new build. I guess I'm just not really sold on grim flayer in this deck? I feel like the games show just how challenging it can be to enable delirium in a deck without cantrips, and if flayer is just gonna be a 2/2 every game until turns 4 or 5, I'm not sure how much you can call that a potent threat. Once delirium is on, flayer seems like everything you could ever ask for in jund, but before then I foresee problems enabling delirium when you can't afford to be attacking (either because the opponent has a bigger creature or because you need flayer to block).
Idk, I feel like a build like Reid's is ideal, except for the fact that there are no other threats at 2cmc except grim flayer. I'm just not convinced you can get delirium often enough, and having to maindeck nihil spellbomb just to enable him seems loose.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
I don't like 4 Ravines in his manabase though. The games really show its light on black mana. With 24 lands and 4 of them being Ravine, 2 being Forest and 1 being Stomping Ground, there aren't enough black sources (only 17). I would really cut the fourth ravine and add another black source for it.
You're probably right, however, I've been playing a similar 24 land manabase for over a month (4 Manlands and 4 Basics) and I haven't run into any problems with it yet, to be fair - the match Reid played against that Control player where he drew all of his Ravines and a Forest with a hand of black cards was just insanely bad luck.
Sure, this particular game was insanely unlikely to repeat more than once, and also pretty unlucky.
Not sure I like Reid's new build. I guess I'm just not really sold on grim flayer in this deck? I feel like the games show just how challenging it can be to enable delirium in a deck without cantrips, and if flayer is just gonna be a 2/2 every game until turns 4 or 5, I'm not sure how much you can call that a potent threat. Once delirium is on, flayer seems like everything you could ever ask for in jund, but before then I foresee problems enabling delirium when you can't afford to be attacking (either because the opponent has a bigger creature or because you need flayer to block).
Idk, I feel like a build like Reid's is ideal, except for the fact that there are no other threats at 2cmc except grim flayer. I'm just not convinced you can get delirium often enough, and having to maindeck nihil spellbomb just to enable him seems loose.
I feel the same way about Flayer. I historically hate the card to insanity due to its unrelyability and inconsistancy. But the filtering effect to control our draws is basically exactly what I would want right now. But I really doubt Grim Flayer can provide that on a consistant manner. Plus, a grim flayer topdecked will basically do nothing for a turn, at which point it could be too late already.
Guys, there is a new Jund video available by Reid Duke in which he lowered his curve and tried some new things. It is not listed on Youtube (don't ask me why) but here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSE9oA2utso
This will be good to check out while doing cardio.
I'm interested to see if a new version of Jund needs to be tinkered with
Whats up with us only playing 1x terminate though, shouldn't we just cut the 2nd pulse and play the 2nd terminate, too?
I'm worried about Grim Flayer making graveyard hate even better against us. I don't know.
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
People trying different things? I don't really like the mana dork approach, but it could work. Mishra's bauble is a good cantrip wich helps filtering along with fetchlands; and for the rest of the creatures, I think that 15-creature lists run 2 flex slots (the third ooze and the 4th BBE) and any of those creatures could fit there.
I’ve stopped giving any credence to lists that 5-0 modern leagues. I’m convinced that if you run lucky enough, you can 5-0 with a wet noodle. Those lists all run the core of jund, like 1-mana discard, lilis, and goyfs. Sometimes that’s all it takes to win a modern league.
Also maybe if ‘fast jund’ is the right deckbuilding approach, maybe a better option than nihil spellbomb would be replacing a bolt or push for a singleton tarfire (or two I guess if delirium ends up being that important). It’s more mana efficient than cycling a spellbomb, more universally useful, and actually better at enabling delirium. Just a thought I suppose. It’s obviously strictly worse than bolt otherwise, but as a 1 of maybe not too costly. I’ll play a build with 2 flayer and a tarfire at my next modern event and see how it goes, sounds fun at the very least.
I like Spellbomb as an extra cantrip in Jund, as its a real cantrip. I think a huge factor for cantrips is their property of being live topdecks. Bauble for example is not a live topdeck, as you don't cantrip right away. And therefore I am not a fan of playing that card in Jund.
Like I stated, our biggest problems are topdecks and lack or providing the right answers at the right timeframe right now. Therefore we should not look at cards that give delayed value or delayd or even inconsistant filtering/CA or whatever. We need spot on consistancy. We need the answers on time. Not a turn later.
Thats also one huge advantage Mardu has in having the ability to play Looting. Its actually quite a live topdeck and immediatly can dig to answers you need.
The tarfires so far have been quite alright. Every time I found them, they were practically the same as a bolt. The tarmogoyf pumps are kinda nice and obviously they're quite valuable for enabling flayer. I didn't see flayer as much as I would have liked, and perhaps there's an argument to be made for running 3 of them if you're going to go out of your way to play tarfire for delirium.
The proactiveness of the deck is really great with essentially 6 tarmogoyfs (sorta). I felt like I often had fast clocks and disruption to back it up. And honestly, even though I know some people won't agree, I think 4 bloodbraids is so powerful in a deck like this. The cascades are often good, and even when they aren't she + 1 other fatty (like a pumped flayer or goyf) often means you win the game by turn 5. Turn 5 can be suit up a ravine and smash for a kill. Deck felt great, will definitely play at my next modern event even if it's just for the fun of it.
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I’ve stopped giving any credence to lists that 5-0 modern leagues. I’m convinced that if you run lucky enough, you can 5-0 with a wet noodle. Those lists all run the core of jund, like 1-mana discard, lilis, and goyfs. Sometimes that’s all it takes to win a modern league.
Also maybe if ‘fast jund’ is the right deckbuilding approach, maybe a better option than nihil spellbomb would be replacing a bolt or push for a singleton tarfire (or two I guess if delirium ends up being that important). It’s more mana efficient than cycling a spellbomb, more universally useful, and actually better at enabling delirium. Just a thought I suppose. It’s obviously strictly worse than bolt otherwise, but as a 1 of maybe not too costly. I’ll play a build with 2 flayer and a tarfire at my next modern event and see how it goes, sounds fun at the very least.
I'm not a Jund player but I follow this thread because it's active and you folks seem to have good ideas about what the metagame looks like and how to attack it. I'm a RUG Delver player, and I play 2 Tarfire and 2 Bauble to enable Traverse, and it's a sweet plan.
But one of my local opponents plays a Jund build with a singleton Tarfire and a few Grim Flayers, and he likes the build. Incidentally, we usually end up playing Grow-a-Goyf, since between us, we run all possible card types in our maindecks. I know for me, Tarfire is almost always just about the same as Bolt unless it's going to the dome. What does Bolt hit that Tarfire misses? Looking at the top 30 creatures in Modern, Reflector Mage and Mantis Rider are the only ones it misses 100% of the time. Mostly it's cards like Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, Tireless Tracker, Goyfs, and Scavenging Ooze, which grow out of Tarfire range a little more quickly. But it kills Bobs, Snapcasters, mana dorks, Bloodbraids, etc just as dead, and is basically equally bad against Anglers and Hollow Ones. It might be worth taking note your next FNM or whatever, when you go to Bolt something to kill it, noting if Tarfire would kill it, too.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I am actually really curious how a card like Looting would fare in Jund. I guess the correct answer is not good, but I think Looting could at least help us in case of mana problems. When you flood out, you can keep the excess lands in hand to readily discard it to Looting. If you only have 1 or 2 lands, looting can dig into more needed ones. The big problem of course is the nature of the deck, as we generally want positive or at least equal CA, and Looting is negative CA in order to grand card quality. The problem is also, we are running 4 LoTV, which makes Looting worse naturally. Also, we do not really benefit from extra flashback cards like Souls in the yard or from the presence of spells in the yard (for a card like Reveler). Lastly, Looting costing 1 mana makes our more expensive Spells worse, as you likely aren't really able to cast those after you have to cast Looting to find those cards in the first place.
I'm very tempted on running a list with Traverse so that I get to play 23 or 24 lands.
I dont see switching 4x Bolts for maybe 2-2 with Tarfires being a big issue, as almost everything bolt kills a tarfire would too.
Playing one or two Traverses would also allow to get cratures on-demand. Which would be sick. Would let us run 2 or 3 BBE's but still teoretically have 4 chances of finding one in a grindy game.
Allow us to run a 1 of Kalitas or Huntmaster and still always have them when needed.
Fetching a Scooze for grave hate ? Fulminators for Land destruction ?
Sounds sweet. Would defnetly help our "Top deck the right piece" issue while at the same time allowing us to run a less floody curve.
I am actually really curious how a card like Looting would fare in Jund. I guess the correct answer is not good, but I think Looting could at least help us in case of mana problems. When you flood out, you can keep the excess lands in hand to readily discard it to Looting. If you only have 1 or 2 lands, looting can dig into more needed ones. The big problem of course is the nature of the deck, as we generally want positive or at least equal CA, and Looting is negative CA in order to grand card quality. The problem is also, we are running 4 LoTV, which makes Looting worse naturally. Also, we do not really benefit from extra flashback cards like Souls in the yard or from the presence of spells in the yard (for a card like Reveler). Lastly, Looting costing 1 mana makes our more expensive Spells worse, as you likely aren't really able to cast those after you have to cast Looting to find those cards in the first place.
But how often will you play and +1 a Liliana if you're in need of lands or looking for a particular type of spell?
I'm very tempted on running a list with Traverse so that I get to play 23 or 24 lands.
I dont see switching 4x Bolts for maybe 2-2 with Tarfires being a big issue, as almost everything bolt kills a tarfire would too.
Playing one or two Traverses would also allow to get cratures on-demand. Which would be sick. Would let us run 2 or 3 BBE's but still teoretically have 4 chances of finding one in a grindy game.
Allow us to run a 1 of Kalitas or Huntmaster and still always have them when needed.
Fetching a Scooze for grave hate ? Fulminators for Land destruction ?
Sounds sweet. Would defnetly help our "Top deck the right piece" issue while at the same time allowing us to run a less floody curve.
While Traverse can help find what we need, there are some odd points in this suggestion according to my opinion.
Firstly I don't consider Traverse being consistant at all. The card alone does not what we want it to do. You have to have delirium, which is not a consistant mechanic at all. Not even if we build the deck around it (leaving out the fact of deckbuilding restrictions here).
If we say we can use Traverse with delirium, will it actually find what we need? I actually think it won't. It can only search for lands and creatures, no removal, sweeper or specific removal spells like Grudge/Pulse or LoTV. The thing I want to say is that I don't think we want a specific creature very often when it comes to the "topdeck the right piece" issue.
I am actually really curious how a card like Looting would fare in Jund. I guess the correct answer is not good, but I think Looting could at least help us in case of mana problems. When you flood out, you can keep the excess lands in hand to readily discard it to Looting. If you only have 1 or 2 lands, looting can dig into more needed ones. The big problem of course is the nature of the deck, as we generally want positive or at least equal CA, and Looting is negative CA in order to grand card quality. The problem is also, we are running 4 LoTV, which makes Looting worse naturally. Also, we do not really benefit from extra flashback cards like Souls in the yard or from the presence of spells in the yard (for a card like Reveler). Lastly, Looting costing 1 mana makes our more expensive Spells worse, as you likely aren't really able to cast those after you have to cast Looting to find those cards in the first place.
But how often will you play and +1 a Liliana if you're in need of lands or looking for a particular type of spell?
I am sorry, I think I don't understand what you are trying to say with that. You mean that we likely won't play LoTV in such a situation?
I would cut 1 LtLH, the Thrun and also the Kozilek's Returns for better cards. You need stronger sweepers against Soul Sisters, Living End and E-Tron. Consider Damnation in this case. I would even play 2 copies probably.
You don't need Thrun for the Jeskai Control matchup, its a good matchup with 4 BBE. Plus you have 3 Fulminator already.
I would add another piece of GY hate at the very least. Living End is a tough matchup. The easiest thing would be to add another Spellbomb.
In your maindeck, at least go for a 3/3 split of Push and Bolt. Bolt is not really good in your meta (it does not kill Serra Ascendand most likely, can't kill TKS or most of E-Trons threats and doesnt kill a goyf from Jund or DS from Grixis DS, while Push does all that).
I would probably cut the second KCommand and play a Decay. At this point you could also think about cutting Treetop and add a third Ooze, which I really like in that meta.
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been playing Jund on and off for a couple years now. My current meta consists of G Tron/E Tron, Merfolk, Free Win Red, 8rack, Affinity, Burn, Abzan, and Tokens. I'm wondering if I should continue playing Jund despite it feeling poorly positioned. Looking for any salient advice.
My list is pretty stock, running 3x BBE. I can update here later after work if anyone is interested in the nitty-gritty.
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this is a cool build. it almost resemble the abzan list that he took in Protour. will give this a try.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Idk, I feel like a build like Reid's is ideal, except for the fact that there are no other threats at 2cmc except grim flayer. I'm just not convinced you can get delirium often enough, and having to maindeck nihil spellbomb just to enable him seems loose.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Sure, this particular game was insanely unlikely to repeat more than once, and also pretty unlucky.
I feel the same way about Flayer. I historically hate the card to insanity due to its unrelyability and inconsistancy. But the filtering effect to control our draws is basically exactly what I would want right now. But I really doubt Grim Flayer can provide that on a consistant manner. Plus, a grim flayer topdecked will basically do nothing for a turn, at which point it could be too late already.
This will be good to check out while doing cardio.
I'm interested to see if a new version of Jund needs to be tinkered with
Whats up with us only playing 1x terminate though, shouldn't we just cut the 2nd pulse and play the 2nd terminate, too?
I'm worried about Grim Flayer making graveyard hate even better against us. I don't know.
There are some... weird choices. A list running Noble Hierarch, another with with Grim Flayer and Goblin Dark-Dwellers, another one with maindeck Thrun, the Last Troll, Tireless Tracker, Eternal Witness and Mishra's Bauble
Thoughts?
People trying different things? I don't really like the mana dork approach, but it could work. Mishra's bauble is a good cantrip wich helps filtering along with fetchlands; and for the rest of the creatures, I think that 15-creature lists run 2 flex slots (the third ooze and the 4th BBE) and any of those creatures could fit there.
Also maybe if ‘fast jund’ is the right deckbuilding approach, maybe a better option than nihil spellbomb would be replacing a bolt or push for a singleton tarfire (or two I guess if delirium ends up being that important). It’s more mana efficient than cycling a spellbomb, more universally useful, and actually better at enabling delirium. Just a thought I suppose. It’s obviously strictly worse than bolt otherwise, but as a 1 of maybe not too costly. I’ll play a build with 2 flayer and a tarfire at my next modern event and see how it goes, sounds fun at the very least.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Like I stated, our biggest problems are topdecks and lack or providing the right answers at the right timeframe right now. Therefore we should not look at cards that give delayed value or delayd or even inconsistant filtering/CA or whatever. We need spot on consistancy. We need the answers on time. Not a turn later.
Thats also one huge advantage Mardu has in having the ability to play Looting. Its actually quite a live topdeck and immediatly can dig to answers you need.
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 raging ravine
2 swamp
1 forest
2 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 blood crypt
CREATURES
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
4 bloodbraid elf
2 grim flayer
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
1 fatal push
2 tarfire
3 lightning bolt
2 terminate
1 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 kolaghan's command
4 liliana of the veil
2 fulminator mage
2 damping sphere
2 collective brutality
2 anger of the gods
2 nihil spellbomb
1 liliana, the last hope
1 kitchen finks
1 kolaghan's command
1 ancient grudge
1 fatal push
The tarfires so far have been quite alright. Every time I found them, they were practically the same as a bolt. The tarmogoyf pumps are kinda nice and obviously they're quite valuable for enabling flayer. I didn't see flayer as much as I would have liked, and perhaps there's an argument to be made for running 3 of them if you're going to go out of your way to play tarfire for delirium.
The proactiveness of the deck is really great with essentially 6 tarmogoyfs (sorta). I felt like I often had fast clocks and disruption to back it up. And honestly, even though I know some people won't agree, I think 4 bloodbraids is so powerful in a deck like this. The cascades are often good, and even when they aren't she + 1 other fatty (like a pumped flayer or goyf) often means you win the game by turn 5. Turn 5 can be suit up a ravine and smash for a kill. Deck felt great, will definitely play at my next modern event even if it's just for the fun of it.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I'm not a Jund player but I follow this thread because it's active and you folks seem to have good ideas about what the metagame looks like and how to attack it. I'm a RUG Delver player, and I play 2 Tarfire and 2 Bauble to enable Traverse, and it's a sweet plan.
But one of my local opponents plays a Jund build with a singleton Tarfire and a few Grim Flayers, and he likes the build. Incidentally, we usually end up playing Grow-a-Goyf, since between us, we run all possible card types in our maindecks. I know for me, Tarfire is almost always just about the same as Bolt unless it's going to the dome. What does Bolt hit that Tarfire misses? Looking at the top 30 creatures in Modern, Reflector Mage and Mantis Rider are the only ones it misses 100% of the time. Mostly it's cards like Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, Tireless Tracker, Goyfs, and Scavenging Ooze, which grow out of Tarfire range a little more quickly. But it kills Bobs, Snapcasters, mana dorks, Bloodbraids, etc just as dead, and is basically equally bad against Anglers and Hollow Ones. It might be worth taking note your next FNM or whatever, when you go to Bolt something to kill it, noting if Tarfire would kill it, too.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I dont see switching 4x Bolts for maybe 2-2 with Tarfires being a big issue, as almost everything bolt kills a tarfire would too.
Playing one or two Traverses would also allow to get cratures on-demand. Which would be sick. Would let us run 2 or 3 BBE's but still teoretically have 4 chances of finding one in a grindy game.
Allow us to run a 1 of Kalitas or Huntmaster and still always have them when needed.
Fetching a Scooze for grave hate ? Fulminators for Land destruction ?
Sounds sweet. Would defnetly help our "Top deck the right piece" issue while at the same time allowing us to run a less floody curve.
But how often will you play and +1 a Liliana if you're in need of lands or looking for a particular type of spell?
2x burn
1x EldaTron
1x Jund
1x Merfolk
1x Jeskai Control
1x Grixis Death's Shadow
1x Living End
1x Soul Sisters
I will be playing burn and at the moment my decklist and sideboard are:
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Terminate
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
Any thoughts on potential changes?
While Traverse can help find what we need, there are some odd points in this suggestion according to my opinion.
Firstly I don't consider Traverse being consistant at all. The card alone does not what we want it to do. You have to have delirium, which is not a consistant mechanic at all. Not even if we build the deck around it (leaving out the fact of deckbuilding restrictions here).
If we say we can use Traverse with delirium, will it actually find what we need? I actually think it won't. It can only search for lands and creatures, no removal, sweeper or specific removal spells like Grudge/Pulse or LoTV. The thing I want to say is that I don't think we want a specific creature very often when it comes to the "topdeck the right piece" issue.
I am sorry, I think I don't understand what you are trying to say with that. You mean that we likely won't play LoTV in such a situation?
I would cut 1 LtLH, the Thrun and also the Kozilek's Returns for better cards. You need stronger sweepers against Soul Sisters, Living End and E-Tron. Consider Damnation in this case. I would even play 2 copies probably.
You don't need Thrun for the Jeskai Control matchup, its a good matchup with 4 BBE. Plus you have 3 Fulminator already.
I would add another piece of GY hate at the very least. Living End is a tough matchup. The easiest thing would be to add another Spellbomb.
In your maindeck, at least go for a 3/3 split of Push and Bolt. Bolt is not really good in your meta (it does not kill Serra Ascendand most likely, can't kill TKS or most of E-Trons threats and doesnt kill a goyf from Jund or DS from Grixis DS, while Push does all that).
I would probably cut the second KCommand and play a Decay. At this point you could also think about cutting Treetop and add a third Ooze, which I really like in that meta.
Regarding stronger sweepers, I'll cut the 2 Kozilek's Returns for Damnation.
What are your thoughts on playing Huntmaster in place of Thrun? or Huntmaster not good enough?
Do you recommend running 24 lands in my meta? However I do feel that playing 25 allows me to consistently cast BBE on turn 4 while 24 lands does not.
In your meta its not that mandatory I think. You can stick with 25 lands for sure.
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been playing Jund on and off for a couple years now. My current meta consists of G Tron/E Tron, Merfolk, Free Win Red, 8rack, Affinity, Burn, Abzan, and Tokens. I'm wondering if I should continue playing Jund despite it feeling poorly positioned. Looking for any salient advice.
My list is pretty stock, running 3x BBE. I can update here later after work if anyone is interested in the nitty-gritty.