Not sure Life from the Loam is where you wanna be when Ponza can potentially shut us off green. I would just play 4 basics, and run 2 Decays before running Loam. However, I don't think Ponza is that big of a problem. The important thing to have against the deck is turn 1 interaction, since they won't do anyting on turn 1.
anybody saw the new jund list today? It has 4 noble and 22 lands. I think if we replace 4 noble with elves of the deep shadow, it will be better. i think mana dork is the way to go. maybe replace fatal push with bolt but you need to fix manabase to do that.
anybody saw the new jund list today? It has 4 noble and 22 lands. I think if we replace 4 noble with elves of the deep shadow, it will be better. i think mana dork is the way to go. maybe replace fatal push with bolt but you need to fix manabase to do that.
anybody saw the new jund list today? It has 4 noble and 22 lands. I think if we replace 4 noble with elves of the deep shadow, it will be better. i think mana dork is the way to go. maybe replace fatal push with bolt but you need to fix manabase to do that.
Why do you think mana dorks are the way to go?
fast clock, turn 2 lily, and turn 3 bbe. dont like the fatal push but i can see being a problem on manabase. if we will go bolt, then we need a red/green fast land on first turn. and i think it has to be a mana dork that has atleast 1 power so you can clock people.
Agreed on the matter of mana dorks. The only mana creatures worth playing need to have value beyond making mana. Hierarch is the closest it gets, and she can’t even produce more than one of our colors. Seems pretty loose to me. I’d rather disrupt on turn 1 than play hierarch.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
I had plans to try Elves of Deep Shadow in Oblitirock but I don't think they would be good in Jund. I don't really think they would be good in Rock but I remember them from back in the day and thought it might be fun to try.
I don't think dorks are the way to go. We don't have DRS, Noble Hierarch would be our best option and she only makes green for us.
I tried Noble Abzan last year and I haaaaated that deck. Regular dorks don't belong in BG/x imo.
I don't think dorks are the way to go. We don't have DRS, Noble Hierarch would be our best option and she only makes green for us.
I tried Noble Abzan last year and I haaaaated that deck. Regular dorks don't belong in BG/x imo.
I think it could work. gotta try somehow. and it did 5-0 in a league. trying Elves of deep Shadow on Noble slot coz black is more needed. Also I think its a good way to fight bloodmoon too. Also on Abzan, it worked when you're trying to punch a grim flayer through but abzan doesn't have a 4 drop that you can abuse to play early. for all I know, It can be done but the mana dork needs to be a clock too and produce relevant color. birds of paradise wont work.
and also if dork is the way to go. then sweepers needs to be tweaked. coz anger of the gods will be bad. I think that's why he went Liliana the last hope.
I think it could work. gotta try somehow. and it did 5-0 in a league. trying Elves of deep Shadow on Noble slot coz black is more needed. Also I think its a good way to fight bloodmoon too. Also on Abzan, it worked when you're trying to punch a grim flayer through but abzan doesn't have a 4 drop that you can abuse to play early. for all I know, It can be done but the mana dork needs to be a clock too and produce relevant color. birds of paradise wont work.
and also if dork is the way to go. then sweepers needs to be tweaked. coz anger of the gods will be bad. I think that's why he went Liliana the last hope.
It did 5-0, yeah, but nowadays any deck can make 5-0 as you can see if you look at the whole list of different decks there. Modern Leagues results are not a good indicator for the modern metagame anymore, since wizards changed it to report only tuesdays and fridays and report different decklists primarily. Thats why you always see one list of a decktype.
Its a way to fight Blood Moon, but not a good way, because you need green mana to cast the dork beforehand. If you get the dork into play turn 1, sure, but if BM comes down before that, you need basics anyway. And I personally think BM is not our main problem atm.
Abzan has Siege Rhino which was played as a four drop, so they do.
If we find a dork that produces relevant colours and is a decent clock, sure, I am intrigued to test, but Neither Noble or Elves of Deep Shadow provide both things imho.
The essence for me concerning struggling with Jund lately has just been the topdecking issue as well as the lacking ability to manipulate ones draws. The top decks of the modern format currently pressure you so hard and that also on a very consistant basis, that even one single bad topdeck feels like pure punishment. I guess many of you can relate when you were in a position of being pressured and you felt you need to topdeck a removal spell and then you would actually be in a fine position, but then topdeck a land. And in this situation I hardly think: Well, if I topdeck a removal spell next turn, its going to still be alright. For me it feels like you need the correct answer at a very distinct timeframe now in order to do well against those hard pressuring decks.
When it comes down to playing Jund nevertheless, I strongly believe a very low curve version brings the best results. And especially now I personally want to play the best individual cards possible, for the reason I stated in the first paragraph. If we need distinct answers on an exact timeframe, I don't think we can run cards that are not powerful enough on their own. I am looking for impactful and strong GY hate for example, which means Cage or Spellbomb, no Surgical. BBE is a card that actually doesn't fit the bill here either. We can't guarantee good value from the cascade, but we often have to rely on it. That is not a position where you generally want to play BBE in the first place. Its not the purpose of the card, but we often have no other outs now.
Right now I am thinking about running 2 BBEs only alongside 1 Kalitas main and 1 Lavamancer main. I know some people here think Bob is not good right now, which is partially true, since topdecked it does basically nothing and can't guarantee CA. But if its basically the only source of CA and card draw we have, I am happily playing it to be able to at least draw into answers naturally.
I also have the feeling that on average, manlands hurt ourselves more than benefit us. I am therfore against playing more copies than 3 in a manabase right now. I feel that way because most of my games didn't allow me to actually attack with a manlands, since I was on the backfoot all the time. They did only really serve as blockers or even chump blockers. And before that, they hinder my abilities to enhance my gameplan since they come into play tapped. At least that has been my recent experience about them.
Hi all! I came to M:tG after many, many years of break and I need help. I have access to every possible Jund Card with the exception of Lilianas', Raging Ravines and BlackCleave Cliffs (ok, I have 1). Could you suggest valid replacements? My first thought was to add more removal and discard, but I haven't played modern for years. I suppose Lilianas' also help Boggle matchup. I want to play the deck at local FNMs, not big tournaments (for the time being). Thanks in advance.
Hi!
Liliana has no real replacement, but Necrogen mists and Gatekeeper of malakir have similar effects. Try to get Lily when possible. Liliana, the last Hope has been doing well, maybe you could run 2. She's not that cheap, tough.
RaRas fix mana and put a clock against Control. Honestly, you could just run Treetop village or Hissing quagmire but it is not the same. Maybe hissing quagmire is better as it fixes mana.
On the cliffs matter, you can either go the Blooming marsh or the Sulfurous Springs way.
If I were in your place, I think I'd drop bolts altogether as not to require the red mana on T1, then run a Cliff along 3 Blooming marsh and hissing quagmire as your manland of choice.
I've slanted the list heavily against the aggro decks of the format (I'm quite low on bogles hate which I think is an issue). I'm only running 7 cards with CMC > 2 maindeck which is a huge help in these matchups. Sadly I've yet to play against Humans, Affinity and Hollow One which are the decks I'd really want to test a list like this against. The list has been solid though - in that it always gets to play magic - and does relevant things. I would like to get a K Command back in the list - but for now I prefer more solid removal spells. I have missed having the 3rd terminate in the deck, it's just nice to see your opponent lay down a huge CMC threat and answering it so cleanly.
I don't think cutting Bob is the way to go - I'd much rather just up the number of "relevant" spells. If we're facing a bunch of creature aggro decks, then we should load up on creature removal.
On my quest to test out the correct number of BBE to play, I have been trying out only 2, and I feel that is wrong. I feel the correct number to run is 3-4 based on personal preference. I will likely stick to 3 of them myself. At 2-of I don't see it as often as I would like. (Usually only 1 time per night.) Maybe I am just having terrible luck and variance, but I would feel more comfortable on 3 BBE.
I think that the problem with BBEs is mostly having 2 in the same hand. It makes it very clunky and difficult to deploy in an efficient matter.
After lots of testing, I have arrived to the following maindeck creature suite:
Truth be told, lifegain is necessary most of the time due to Bob hurting us badly or being in the backfoot against swarm aggro decks. I'd really love to have 2 Tireless tracker mainboard instead of the finks, but they have been outstanding in the current meta.
3 BBE felt fine, and while I do have a Kalitas in the side he does not come in so often. Just food for thought.
On the Blood moon issue: I run 4 basics (2/2 split of swamp and forest) and I rarely have issues with it. The ponza match does require T1 or T2 discard spell, tough. Discard - kill dork (in correct order) - Liliana of the veil is backbreacking for them.
Why is everyone proposing Elves of the deep shadow as the dork of choice? I don't think we need to damage ourselves further, and BoP provides better fixing and a chump blocker for flying creatures.
Why is everyone proposing Elves of the deep shadow as the dork of choice? I don't think we need to damage ourselves further, and BoP provides better fixing and a chump blocker for flying creatures.
playtest it last night and you don't take alot of damage with deep shadow. I only took like 2-3 dmg per game. i find too that you can run more fast lands if you want and not get punished for not casting bbe on time. which saves you life.
it did put up results so i had to try it. i find you got more free wins by either steamrolling opponent with mass creatures or countrol the board with early lily.
only draw back is sweeper is not an option and have to result to lily last hope. and sometimes planeswalker is a problem beceause you can't play bolt.
also turn 2 fulminator was good in bad matchups.
and also i think you sideboard the mana dorks in grindy matchups so you only have 22 lands and can grind really well because you have more spells in the deck.
what it feels like to me that this Mana dork Jund is built like a hybrid GR Ponza.
Why is everyone proposing Elves of the deep shadow as the dork of choice? I don't think we need to damage ourselves further, and BoP provides better fixing and a chump blocker for flying creatures.
playtest it last night and you don't take alot of damage with deep shadow. I only took like 2-3 dmg per game. i find too that you can run more fast lands if you want and not get punished for not casting bbe on time. which saves you life.
it did put up results so i had to try it. i find you got more free wins by either steamrolling opponent with mass creatures or countrol the board with early lily.
only draw back is sweeper is not an option and have to result to lily last hope. and sometimes planeswalker is a problem beceause you can't play bolt.
also turn 2 fulminator was good in bad matchups.
and also i think you sideboard the mana dorks in grindy matchups so you only have 22 lands and can grind really well because you have more spells in the deck.
what it feels like to me that this Mana dork Jund is built like a hybrid GR Ponza.
Just some food for thought: 2-3 dmg per game is one less combo piece for Burn to kill you. If you have played against the deck, it often comes down to them wiffing one more turn while you are at 3 or lower life. Against all aggro decks 2-3 life is a lot. Its one extra fetchshock. But you actually didnt fetch shock and just produces abunch of black mana.
Concerning the statement that 22 lands help in grindy matchups: I can pretty much assure you, that statistically, a 22 land Jund list will loose to a 25 jund list more often. Its due to the fact that especially in grindy matchups you want to hit your landdrops. What does grinding do if you don't get to cast your spells? Its all about the following: You have to look at a certain matchup and define an average number of turns that matchup typically lasts until someone wins. I think we can agree that in Jund vs aggro matchups this number is lower than in Jund vs grindy matchups. That means, ideally, you want to have as many lands in your deck to ensure hitting landdrops in the most significant turns of the matchups. In aggro matchups, you likely won't even get to a point where you hit 4+ lands, so excess lands are punishing since you cant deploy them. In grindy matchups though, excess lands are actually played. I am not talking about simply flooding, but being able to hit ones landdrops for the first 5 turns or so and getting to actually play the spells you have. A 25 land Jund list can more likely do that. I think if you are having 22 lands only here but excess spells you will be screwed quite often, sitting with a bunch of excess spells in hand, but only able to cast say 1 per turn because you are sitting on 3 lands or so. So, all in all, having fewer lands (and a lower curve alongside that) really benefits in the aggro matchups, not in the grindy matchups.
Guys, there is a new Jund video available by Reid Duke in which he lowered his curve and tried some new things. It is not listed on Youtube (don't ask me why) but here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSE9oA2utso
Guys, there is a new Jund video available by Reid Duke in which he lowered his curve and tried some new things. It is not listed on Youtube (don't ask me why) but here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSE9oA2utso
Awesome, thanks for sharing the link!
Seems Reid Duke has come to similar conclusions we have, which again confirms we are quite discussing in a constructive way, I really like that.
What Reid is saying is exactly what I want. More consistant openers of turn 1 discard into turn 2 threat. We all know that this type of opener is the best we typically have against anything, so I really like the approach.
Why is everyone proposing Elves of the deep shadow as the dork of choice? I don't think we need to damage ourselves further, and BoP provides better fixing and a chump blocker for flying creatures.
playtest it last night and you don't take alot of damage with deep shadow. I only took like 2-3 dmg per game. i find too that you can run more fast lands if you want and not get punished for not casting bbe on time. which saves you life.
it did put up results so i had to try it. i find you got more free wins by either steamrolling opponent with mass creatures or countrol the board with early lily.
only draw back is sweeper is not an option and have to result to lily last hope. and sometimes planeswalker is a problem beceause you can't play bolt.
also turn 2 fulminator was good in bad matchups.
and also i think you sideboard the mana dorks in grindy matchups so you only have 22 lands and can grind really well because you have more spells in the deck.
what it feels like to me that this Mana dork Jund is built like a hybrid GR Ponza.
Just some food for thought: 2-3 dmg per game is one less combo piece for Burn to kill you. If you have played against the deck, it often comes down to them wiffing one more turn while you are at 3 or lower life. Against all aggro decks 2-3 life is a lot. Its one extra fetchshock. But you actually didnt fetch shock and just produces abunch of black mana.
Concerning the statement that 22 lands help in grindy matchups: I can pretty much assure you, that statistically, a 22 land Jund list will loose to a 25 jund list more often. Its due to the fact that especially in grindy matchups you want to hit your landdrops. What does grinding do if you don't get to cast your spells? Its all about the following: You have to look at a certain matchup and define an average number of turns that matchup typically lasts until someone wins. I think we can agree that in Jund vs aggro matchups this number is lower than in Jund vs grindy matchups. That means, ideally, you want to have as many lands in your deck to ensure hitting landdrops in the most significant turns of the matchups. In aggro matchups, you likely won't even get to a point where you hit 4+ lands, so excess lands are punishing since you cant deploy them. In grindy matchups though, excess lands are actually played. I am not talking about simply flooding, but being able to hit ones landdrops for the first 5 turns or so and getting to actually play the spells you have. A 25 land Jund list can more likely do that. I think if you are having 22 lands only here but excess spells you will be screwed quite often, sitting with a bunch of excess spells in hand, but only able to cast say 1 per turn because you are sitting on 3 lands or so. So, all in all, having fewer lands (and a lower curve alongside that) really benefits in the aggro matchups, not in the grindy matchups.
total agree on making your land drop. but on the games i played i didn't get screwed. maybe luck or something. but i do like the mana dork build at the moment. didn't playtest with burn yet so no experience with it, but i think if you play more fast lands you can mitigate it.
but for now i do like it, until i get punish for it.
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Why do you think mana dorks are the way to go?
fast clock, turn 2 lily, and turn 3 bbe. dont like the fatal push but i can see being a problem on manabase. if we will go bolt, then we need a red/green fast land on first turn. and i think it has to be a mana dork that has atleast 1 power so you can clock people.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
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Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I tried Noble Abzan last year and I haaaaated that deck. Regular dorks don't belong in BG/x imo.
BG/x BG
I think it could work. gotta try somehow. and it did 5-0 in a league. trying Elves of deep Shadow on Noble slot coz black is more needed. Also I think its a good way to fight bloodmoon too. Also on Abzan, it worked when you're trying to punch a grim flayer through but abzan doesn't have a 4 drop that you can abuse to play early. for all I know, It can be done but the mana dork needs to be a clock too and produce relevant color. birds of paradise wont work.
and also if dork is the way to go. then sweepers needs to be tweaked. coz anger of the gods will be bad. I think that's why he went Liliana the last hope.
It did 5-0, yeah, but nowadays any deck can make 5-0 as you can see if you look at the whole list of different decks there. Modern Leagues results are not a good indicator for the modern metagame anymore, since wizards changed it to report only tuesdays and fridays and report different decklists primarily. Thats why you always see one list of a decktype.
Its a way to fight Blood Moon, but not a good way, because you need green mana to cast the dork beforehand. If you get the dork into play turn 1, sure, but if BM comes down before that, you need basics anyway. And I personally think BM is not our main problem atm.
Abzan has Siege Rhino which was played as a four drop, so they do.
If we find a dork that produces relevant colours and is a decent clock, sure, I am intrigued to test, but Neither Noble or Elves of Deep Shadow provide both things imho.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
When it comes down to playing Jund nevertheless, I strongly believe a very low curve version brings the best results. And especially now I personally want to play the best individual cards possible, for the reason I stated in the first paragraph. If we need distinct answers on an exact timeframe, I don't think we can run cards that are not powerful enough on their own. I am looking for impactful and strong GY hate for example, which means Cage or Spellbomb, no Surgical. BBE is a card that actually doesn't fit the bill here either. We can't guarantee good value from the cascade, but we often have to rely on it. That is not a position where you generally want to play BBE in the first place. Its not the purpose of the card, but we often have no other outs now.
Right now I am thinking about running 2 BBEs only alongside 1 Kalitas main and 1 Lavamancer main. I know some people here think Bob is not good right now, which is partially true, since topdecked it does basically nothing and can't guarantee CA. But if its basically the only source of CA and card draw we have, I am happily playing it to be able to at least draw into answers naturally.
I also have the feeling that on average, manlands hurt ourselves more than benefit us. I am therfore against playing more copies than 3 in a manabase right now. I feel that way because most of my games didn't allow me to actually attack with a manlands, since I was on the backfoot all the time. They did only really serve as blockers or even chump blockers. And before that, they hinder my abilities to enhance my gameplan since they come into play tapped. At least that has been my recent experience about them.
Hi!
Liliana has no real replacement, but Necrogen mists and Gatekeeper of malakir have similar effects. Try to get Lily when possible. Liliana, the last Hope has been doing well, maybe you could run 2. She's not that cheap, tough.
RaRas fix mana and put a clock against Control. Honestly, you could just run Treetop village or Hissing quagmire but it is not the same. Maybe hissing quagmire is better as it fixes mana.
On the cliffs matter, you can either go the Blooming marsh or the Sulfurous Springs way.
If I were in your place, I think I'd drop bolts altogether as not to require the red mana on T1, then run a Cliff along 3 Blooming marsh and hissing quagmire as your manland of choice.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Scavenging Ooze
Instants and sorceries (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (24)
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Twilight Mire
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Damnation
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Nihil Spellbomb
I've slanted the list heavily against the aggro decks of the format (I'm quite low on bogles hate which I think is an issue). I'm only running 7 cards with CMC > 2 maindeck which is a huge help in these matchups. Sadly I've yet to play against Humans, Affinity and Hollow One which are the decks I'd really want to test a list like this against. The list has been solid though - in that it always gets to play magic - and does relevant things. I would like to get a K Command back in the list - but for now I prefer more solid removal spells. I have missed having the 3rd terminate in the deck, it's just nice to see your opponent lay down a huge CMC threat and answering it so cleanly.
I don't think cutting Bob is the way to go - I'd much rather just up the number of "relevant" spells. If we're facing a bunch of creature aggro decks, then we should load up on creature removal.
I think that the problem with BBEs is mostly having 2 in the same hand. It makes it very clunky and difficult to deploy in an efficient matter.
After lots of testing, I have arrived to the following maindeck creature suite:
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Kitchen finks
2 Scavenging ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
Truth be told, lifegain is necessary most of the time due to Bob hurting us badly or being in the backfoot against swarm aggro decks. I'd really love to have 2 Tireless tracker mainboard instead of the finks, but they have been outstanding in the current meta.
3 BBE felt fine, and while I do have a Kalitas in the side he does not come in so often. Just food for thought.
On the Blood moon issue: I run 4 basics (2/2 split of swamp and forest) and I rarely have issues with it. The ponza match does require T1 or T2 discard spell, tough. Discard - kill dork (in correct order) - Liliana of the veil is backbreacking for them.
Why is everyone proposing Elves of the deep shadow as the dork of choice? I don't think we need to damage ourselves further, and BoP provides better fixing and a chump blocker for flying creatures.
playtest it last night and you don't take alot of damage with deep shadow. I only took like 2-3 dmg per game. i find too that you can run more fast lands if you want and not get punished for not casting bbe on time. which saves you life.
it did put up results so i had to try it. i find you got more free wins by either steamrolling opponent with mass creatures or countrol the board with early lily.
only draw back is sweeper is not an option and have to result to lily last hope. and sometimes planeswalker is a problem beceause you can't play bolt.
also turn 2 fulminator was good in bad matchups.
and also i think you sideboard the mana dorks in grindy matchups so you only have 22 lands and can grind really well because you have more spells in the deck.
what it feels like to me that this Mana dork Jund is built like a hybrid GR Ponza.
Just some food for thought: 2-3 dmg per game is one less combo piece for Burn to kill you. If you have played against the deck, it often comes down to them wiffing one more turn while you are at 3 or lower life. Against all aggro decks 2-3 life is a lot. Its one extra fetchshock. But you actually didnt fetch shock and just produces abunch of black mana.
Concerning the statement that 22 lands help in grindy matchups: I can pretty much assure you, that statistically, a 22 land Jund list will loose to a 25 jund list more often. Its due to the fact that especially in grindy matchups you want to hit your landdrops. What does grinding do if you don't get to cast your spells? Its all about the following: You have to look at a certain matchup and define an average number of turns that matchup typically lasts until someone wins. I think we can agree that in Jund vs aggro matchups this number is lower than in Jund vs grindy matchups. That means, ideally, you want to have as many lands in your deck to ensure hitting landdrops in the most significant turns of the matchups. In aggro matchups, you likely won't even get to a point where you hit 4+ lands, so excess lands are punishing since you cant deploy them. In grindy matchups though, excess lands are actually played. I am not talking about simply flooding, but being able to hit ones landdrops for the first 5 turns or so and getting to actually play the spells you have. A 25 land Jund list can more likely do that. I think if you are having 22 lands only here but excess spells you will be screwed quite often, sitting with a bunch of excess spells in hand, but only able to cast say 1 per turn because you are sitting on 3 lands or so. So, all in all, having fewer lands (and a lower curve alongside that) really benefits in the aggro matchups, not in the grindy matchups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSE9oA2utso
Awesome, thanks for sharing the link!
Seems Reid Duke has come to similar conclusions we have, which again confirms we are quite discussing in a constructive way, I really like that.
total agree on making your land drop. but on the games i played i didn't get screwed. maybe luck or something. but i do like the mana dork build at the moment. didn't playtest with burn yet so no experience with it, but i think if you play more fast lands you can mitigate it.
but for now i do like it, until i get punish for it.