Jund is just fine, and people claiming the sky is falling are overreacting. The hollow one matchup is really not that bad if you’re somewhat prepared for it. I think it’s just another 50/50 matchup if you have 3 or more good board spots for it (personally I’m on two spellbomb and an anger plus of course grudges).
In about two weeks damping sphere will make its grand entrance and I personally believe the tron matchup will become significantly more playable when that happens.
Worth noting, the humans deck looked kinda like garbage for about a month following the pro tour, now everyone is back to calling it a top tier deck. There’s an ebb and flow to the modern meta. A month ago we were flowing, now we’re on the ebb.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
Not wanting to offend anybody, but I did not bring this topic up so that person A says "Jund is not fine", Person B then says "Jund is fine" and Person C then again says "Jund is not fine". These are personal opinions and don't really help focusing on actual issues and facts. Regardless of Jund being fine or not right now.
I want to talk about certain aspects of playing the deck right now, which seem to be tough in my experience. It seems some people here have the impression Hollow One for example if fine to beat (correct me if I am wrong about that). It would be helpful to add some details on why actually it should be fine, at least more detailed than saying "It is fine" or "Just have enough SB cards". In the interest of all here (I think I can definitely speak for the most people here) we can by all means talk on a deeper level of things. Whats the strategy the people who think the matchup is fine are following? I am to this day not even sure how to sideboard correctly against this deck, I just have adapted the plan from Reid. So I encourage you, pls share your experiences and go into detail about this, this would be way more benefitial for all than saying it is fine.
@MagictheHappening I would not play any other 4 drop, I am more relating this to the general status of Jund atm.
Yeah that mana issue is very strange. I think nothing can be changed. I have to deal with opening hands which literally have only 2 lands and awkward mana also (like Ravine + Twilight Mire) or have 6 lands as my opnening 7. Its baffling for me.
Yeah that mana issue is very strange. I think nothing can be changed. I have to deal with opening hands which literally have only 2 lands and awkward mana also (like Ravine + Twilight Mire) or have 6 lands as my opnening 7. Its baffling for me.
Delver, as you know I've tried 23 lands and also run blood moon, wich I think demands for 3 swamps. I don't even run a mountain and if I had to complain about my mana base it would only be because of the need to bolt myself against storm fetching, or the fear to Field of Ruin. But my mana base feels very solid even running just 3 fastlands and 3 ravines. I do notice you have a filter land and if I didn't missread you left the TTV out... I hated the blooming marsh acting as the 5th manland mostly because it couldnt be fetched (even more than missing the BBE drop) and I can imagine some odd starts with the filter land.
As for the Hollow one matchup, I have to agree: I don't figure out just how to correctly sideboard. However, my record is pretty good against it (I'll repeat I don't feel I have met a seasoned player playing the deck yet).
My logic for sideboarding is:
- IoK out, CB in (this is mostly on the play). IoK can be great to gain a few turns, but it doesn't deal with anger or hollow one itself if present. Thoughtseize is a keeper. Collective brutality can act as pesky removal and also drain if we get on a low life total.
- abrupt decay and fatal push out out, Anger and grudge in. Abrupt decay feels clunky, and Fatal push is simply less versatile in this MU; big creatures are resilient and small creatures die to the more flexible bolt.
- Since I personally take out 3 IoK, 2 decays and 3 Fatal pushes and side in 2 nihil spellbomb, 2 anger of the gods, 1 ancient grudge and 2 collective brutality I have an extra slot wich usually gets eaten by kitchen finks (I'd use the third ooze if I had one in the side).
Mostly my game plan is try to leave them with a single creature at all times (busted draws notwithstanding) so I can either take their Hollows with K-command or their Anglers with Liliana of the veil.
As discussed, I also feel that tarmogoyf is the MVP with Scavenging ooze and bolt having honorable mentions. I think it is one of those matches where you need to switch the gears when possible and have them defending as early as possible.
I've not seen many pros playing the deck lately, and Gabrial Nasiff is quoted in his last article saying about Jund, "The deck is mediocre and Bloodbraid Elf isn’t enough to make it tier 1." I do wonder if this is a consistent sentiment among pros right now?
I find this odd because overall it looks like Jund is putting up some good results on MTG Top 8. Aside from its place in the meta being a reason for its perception of being underwhelming, I truly believe the deck to be skill intensive, and knowing how to navigate situations and what to aim removal at or what to take with discard make the deck more challenging than other decks. Simple mistakes in large tournaments can cost you top 8s.
As a side note, the deck is like $2500 right now, not sure if that factors into what people decide to play or build.
i agree on FlyingDelver assessment about Jund. It's just not consistent enough. I think of BBE as a Snapcaster Mage. The difference, BBE is random and Snapcaster Mage, you can plan your actions.
hey figured id chime in and add a different perspective. some of the thoughts you guys have been expressing have been mirrored by jeskai, among other interactive decks. we just ran into it sooner because it was more apparent that jace isnt as good as its cracked up to be. great in some matchups, mediocre in others, but ultimately not solving any of the inherent problems youve been facing. sound familiar?
tbh im not sure high land count decks with multiple ETB tapped lands is where you want to be right now, even more so for decks that are full on 3 colors.
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hey figured id chime in and add a different perspective. some of the thoughts you guys have been expressing have been mirrored by jeskai, among other interactive decks. we just ran into it sooner because it was more apparent that jace isnt as good as its cracked up to be. great in some matchups, mediocre in others, but ultimately not solving any of the inherent problems youve been facing. sound familiar?
tbh im not sure high land count decks with multiple ETB tapped lands is where you want to be right now, even more so for decks that are full on 3 colors.
Some decks are just really hard to answer. Anything playing big spells really... Hallowed One, Tron, etc. That's part of why I'm not a fan of Inquisition, or Fatal Push for that matter.
Since you brought up UWR, something I've been doing in my list is playing a couple Magma Sprays over Lightning Bolts and it has been going well. Circling back to Jund, how much do we care about right now that is exactly 3 toughness? Pillar of Flame (or Magma Spray) might make for a better option right now.
I think it's all about finding balance in a list. The hard part about that is that the scale of Modern tips in different directions so often. I think there needs to be some kind of list established with Jund here soon. Something finite. That way we can start to actually attack the other decks in format instead of having a sort of civil war with lists and ideas.
Just wanted to chime in as I have been lurking this thread since I’ve picked up the deck a little over a month ago.
My opinion is that Bloodbraid Elf isn’t right for our deck. I think it’s best suited in the Ponza and Scapeshift decks that get to ramp it out early (RIP Deathrite). I’ve also found that upping the curve has negative impacts on our aggro matchups because we are just all around slower and sometimes taking a lot of damage off Bob. I find the old lists with 0-2 4 drops run much smoother.
I have enjoyed casting Bloodbraid Elf when I’m in a winning position, but trying to come back from behind with an RNG based mechanic in cascade has left a slightly bad taste in my mouth.
I took this list to a 3-0-1 finish tonight at my LGS and will be running this configuration at GP Hartford. So I’ll follow up with how I do there.
I played Jund for the first time in paper today, expected to get smacked but instead went 4-1 at modern night. Obviously a small sample size, but the deck was a blast to play and felt very powerful. I need a lot more testing and practice with the deck, but it's fun, skill-intensive which helps with improvement at the game as a whole, and the changeup from stabilization to beating down feels very seamless. As far as non-BBE threats, I'd like to try Tireless Tracker at some point, has anyone had experience running it? Not sure if it's right in this meta, but regardless of the top end, the deck still seems quite good and you guys won an excited convert tonight.
Cards I bring in for Hollow One are Spellbombs (2x for me), Anger (2x for me), Obstinate Baloth (1x for me) and Grudges (2x for me) . From what I've seen, Reid sides out Seizes but I find them amazing in the MU myself - I run a 3/3 split with IoK main. I find Inquisition very mediocre - it can pull its weight early IF you hit their drawing spells but if you don't you're generally forced into helping them by discarding one of their recurring creatures. Thoughtseize, on the other hand, can pluck Anglers, Hollow Ones or their spells. I personally don't side out all my LotV - I can see why people do but early game she's a card I don't mind discarding to their Inquiry but after Anger or stabalizing the board and/or blocking with Tarmo and/or exiling stuff with Ooze she keeps their hand remaining low so they can't overwhelm us again and has on many occasions taken out Hollow Ones and Angles for me. The cards I tend to side out are: Abrupt Decay (1 for me - it's generally awful), Inquisition (3 for me - I don't find it good personally), Push (1-2 for me - usually keeping in 1-2 - it's not great as everything it hits recurs but with an active LotV and/or Ooze it's a great way to snag a bigger threat or get rid of an annoying creature), 1-2 BBE and 1-2 LotV. I will generally bring in: 1 Finks, 1 Baloth, 1 Hazoret, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Angers, 2 Grudge.
I don't find the MU too much of an issue myself - I'm a fraction little better than 50/50 in testing with it (although notably I'm under 30 games against it). The hands where they go off early and you can't stabilize happen but, generally, it's honestly not been too much of an issue for me personally.
Yeah that mana issue is very strange. I think nothing can be changed. I have to deal with opening hands which literally have only 2 lands and awkward mana also (like Ravine + Twilight Mire) or have 6 lands as my opnening 7. Its baffling for me.
Delver, as you know I've tried 23 lands and also run blood moon, wich I think demands for 3 swamps. I don't even run a mountain and if I had to complain about my mana base it would only be because of the need to bolt myself against storm fetching, or the fear to Field of Ruin. But my mana base feels very solid even running just 3 fastlands and 3 ravines. I do notice you have a filter land and if I didn't missread you left the TTV out... I hated the blooming marsh acting as the 5th manland mostly because it couldnt be fetched (even more than missing the BBE drop) and I can imagine some odd starts with the filter land.
As for the Hollow one matchup, I have to agree: I don't figure out just how to correctly sideboard. However, my record is pretty good against it (I'll repeat I don't feel I have met a seasoned player playing the deck yet).
My logic for sideboarding is:
- IoK out, CB in (this is mostly on the play). IoK can be great to gain a few turns, but it doesn't deal with anger or hollow one itself if present. Thoughtseize is a keeper. Collective brutality can act as pesky removal and also drain if we get on a low life total.
- abrupt decay and fatal push out out, Anger and grudge in. Abrupt decay feels clunky, and Fatal push is simply less versatile in this MU; big creatures are resilient and small creatures die to the more flexible bolt.
- Since I personally take out 3 IoK, 2 decays and 3 Fatal pushes and side in 2 nihil spellbomb, 2 anger of the gods, 1 ancient grudge and 2 collective brutality I have an extra slot wich usually gets eaten by kitchen finks (I'd use the third ooze if I had one in the side).
Mostly my game plan is try to leave them with a single creature at all times (busted draws notwithstanding) so I can either take their Hollows with K-command or their Anglers with Liliana of the veil.
As discussed, I also feel that tarmogoyf is the MVP with Scavenging ooze and bolt having honorable mentions. I think it is one of those matches where you need to switch the gears when possible and have them defending as early as possible.
It seems your plans are similar against Hollow One. Very valuable information, thanks for sharigng that! I will test this strategy in the future against the deck.
I find this odd because overall it looks like Jund is putting up some good results on MTG Top 8.
I think mtgtop8 is a bit misleading since drastic changes in the format won't be really recognized fast enough in the metagame breakdown since it keeps track of much more decks than goldfish for example. Mostly this data comes from the first spike of Jund after the unbannings for that reason.
Goldfish indicates changes in the meta a bit better for that reason, but lacks a bit of a sight on the general meta as it doesn't keep track of the decks as long as mtgtop8. However, according to goldfish, Jund is trending down.
Just wanted to chime in as I have been lurking this thread since I’ve picked up the deck a little over a month ago.
My opinion is that Bloodbraid Elf isn’t right for our deck. I think it’s best suited in the Ponza and Scapeshift decks that get to ramp it out early (RIP Deathrite). I’ve also found that upping the curve has negative impacts on our aggro matchups because we are just all around slower and sometimes taking a lot of damage off Bob. I find the old lists with 0-2 4 drops run much smoother.
I have enjoyed casting Bloodbraid Elf when I’m in a winning position, but trying to come back from behind with an RNG based mechanic in cascade has left a slightly bad taste in my mouth.
I took this list to a 3-0-1 finish tonight at my LGS and will be running this configuration at GP Hartford. So I’ll follow up with how I do there.
As far as non-BBE threats, I'd like to try Tireless Tracker at some point, has anyone had experience running it? Not sure if it's right in this meta, but regardless of the top end, the deck still seems quite good and you guys won an excited convert tonight.
My feelings exactly. Have tried 1 & 2 mainboard & sideboard Tireless tracker and I have to agree with hellkite12: she does not belong in the mainboard ATM as she is -yet another- 3 drop wich you should deploy on turn 4 to make sure you get at least a clue. Once online it can be a real threat while also digging for answers.
In the mainboard I think it is a little clunky,I run 2 in the sideboard and it is a powerhouse against control. I also side her in (too much I think) against decks wich leave you with a lot of dead cards and requiere specific answers, such as Lantern control.
Honestly, if I had more experience as a player, I think I'd ran a single Hazoret and a more flexible sideboard as FlyingDelver proposes. However, in my local meta she works wonders (specially since she's so easy to splash with blood moon).
Thats actually not true about mtgtop8. You can also just look at the last two weeks.
Exactly, however, results get entries a little slower than goldfish, and since I originally responed to a comment saying that Jund is right now on the top, I derived from that, that it wasnt looked at the last 2 weeks only. Because here you actually see Jund declining and not on the top.
Do y’all remember the Anger of the Gods/Courser of Kruphix lists a long time ago? I don’t remember what they were in response to, maybe Wild Nacatl being unbanned, I dunno. I think that was right after DRS was banned. Anyway, they ran two MB Anger of the Gods. If Humans and Hollow One or other aggressive decks start actually dominating the meta then that doesn’t seem like a terrible idea. Seems like a decent cascade too. Obviously the meta isn’t there yet, and I think it would require a slightly different build. It’s just a thought I had while mowing the yard today.
Edit: For the record, I was only talking about running Anger. I’m not suggesting running Courser. I was just providing some context.
It would be a pretty meaningful meta concession. I think, since modern is still pretty diverse overall, this is hard to do. And I am also more a fan of slowly adapting that and run a maindeck Lavamancer, which is overall more flexible.
If the trend continous though, it might be a good idea yes. The meta has to narrow down quite a bit though for it to be worthwhile.
Do y’all remember the Anger of the Gods/Courser of Kruphix lists a long time ago? I don’t remember what they were in response to, maybe Wild Nacatl being unbanned, I dunno. I think that was right after DRS was banned. Anyway, they ran two MB Anger of the Gods. If Humans and Hollow One or other aggressive decks start actually dominating the meta then that doesn’t seem like a terrible idea. Seems like a decent cascade too. Obviously the meta isn’t there yet, and I think it would require a slightly different build. It’s just a thought I had while mowing the yard today.
Edit: For the record, I was only talking about running Anger. I’m not suggesting running Courser. I was just providing some context.
I remember this! This is when Birthing Pod was at the top of its game. Jund worked it's way back into the meta as one of the "best decks" against birthing pod because it adopted a way to support Anger of the Gods as well as Chandra Pyromaster to keep the board clean, and deal with the pod effectively.
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In about two weeks damping sphere will make its grand entrance and I personally believe the tron matchup will become significantly more playable when that happens.
Worth noting, the humans deck looked kinda like garbage for about a month following the pro tour, now everyone is back to calling it a top tier deck. There’s an ebb and flow to the modern meta. A month ago we were flowing, now we’re on the ebb.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I want to talk about certain aspects of playing the deck right now, which seem to be tough in my experience. It seems some people here have the impression Hollow One for example if fine to beat (correct me if I am wrong about that). It would be helpful to add some details on why actually it should be fine, at least more detailed than saying "It is fine" or "Just have enough SB cards". In the interest of all here (I think I can definitely speak for the most people here) we can by all means talk on a deeper level of things. Whats the strategy the people who think the matchup is fine are following? I am to this day not even sure how to sideboard correctly against this deck, I just have adapted the plan from Reid. So I encourage you, pls share your experiences and go into detail about this, this would be way more benefitial for all than saying it is fine.
Yeah that mana issue is very strange. I think nothing can be changed. I have to deal with opening hands which literally have only 2 lands and awkward mana also (like Ravine + Twilight Mire) or have 6 lands as my opnening 7. Its baffling for me.
Delver, as you know I've tried 23 lands and also run blood moon, wich I think demands for 3 swamps. I don't even run a mountain and if I had to complain about my mana base it would only be because of the need to bolt myself against storm fetching, or the fear to Field of Ruin. But my mana base feels very solid even running just 3 fastlands and 3 ravines. I do notice you have a filter land and if I didn't missread you left the TTV out... I hated the blooming marsh acting as the 5th manland mostly because it couldnt be fetched (even more than missing the BBE drop) and I can imagine some odd starts with the filter land.
As for the Hollow one matchup, I have to agree: I don't figure out just how to correctly sideboard. However, my record is pretty good against it (I'll repeat I don't feel I have met a seasoned player playing the deck yet).
My logic for sideboarding is:
- IoK out, CB in (this is mostly on the play). IoK can be great to gain a few turns, but it doesn't deal with anger or hollow one itself if present. Thoughtseize is a keeper. Collective brutality can act as pesky removal and also drain if we get on a low life total.
- abrupt decay and fatal push out out, Anger and grudge in. Abrupt decay feels clunky, and Fatal push is simply less versatile in this MU; big creatures are resilient and small creatures die to the more flexible bolt.
- Since I personally take out 3 IoK, 2 decays and 3 Fatal pushes and side in 2 nihil spellbomb, 2 anger of the gods, 1 ancient grudge and 2 collective brutality I have an extra slot wich usually gets eaten by kitchen finks (I'd use the third ooze if I had one in the side).
Mostly my game plan is try to leave them with a single creature at all times (busted draws notwithstanding) so I can either take their Hollows with K-command or their Anglers with Liliana of the veil.
As discussed, I also feel that tarmogoyf is the MVP with Scavenging ooze and bolt having honorable mentions. I think it is one of those matches where you need to switch the gears when possible and have them defending as early as possible.
I find this odd because overall it looks like Jund is putting up some good results on MTG Top 8. Aside from its place in the meta being a reason for its perception of being underwhelming, I truly believe the deck to be skill intensive, and knowing how to navigate situations and what to aim removal at or what to take with discard make the deck more challenging than other decks. Simple mistakes in large tournaments can cost you top 8s.
As a side note, the deck is like $2500 right now, not sure if that factors into what people decide to play or build.
Price is a huge factor in what the average player builds and plays, not so much a factor for pro's.
tbh im not sure high land count decks with multiple ETB tapped lands is where you want to be right now, even more so for decks that are full on 3 colors.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Some decks are just really hard to answer. Anything playing big spells really... Hallowed One, Tron, etc. That's part of why I'm not a fan of Inquisition, or Fatal Push for that matter.
Since you brought up UWR, something I've been doing in my list is playing a couple Magma Sprays over Lightning Bolts and it has been going well. Circling back to Jund, how much do we care about right now that is exactly 3 toughness? Pillar of Flame (or Magma Spray) might make for a better option right now.
Just wanted to chime in as I have been lurking this thread since I’ve picked up the deck a little over a month ago.
My opinion is that Bloodbraid Elf isn’t right for our deck. I think it’s best suited in the Ponza and Scapeshift decks that get to ramp it out early (RIP Deathrite). I’ve also found that upping the curve has negative impacts on our aggro matchups because we are just all around slower and sometimes taking a lot of damage off Bob. I find the old lists with 0-2 4 drops run much smoother.
I have enjoyed casting Bloodbraid Elf when I’m in a winning position, but trying to come back from behind with an RNG based mechanic in cascade has left a slightly bad taste in my mouth.
I took this list to a 3-0-1 finish tonight at my LGS and will be running this configuration at GP Hartford. So I’ll follow up with how I do there.
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Grim Lavamancer
Spells
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Terminate
2x Kolaghan’s Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blooming Marsh
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
3x Raging Ravine
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Damnation
It seems your plans are similar against Hollow One. Very valuable information, thanks for sharigng that! I will test this strategy in the future against the deck.
I think mtgtop8 is a bit misleading since drastic changes in the format won't be really recognized fast enough in the metagame breakdown since it keeps track of much more decks than goldfish for example. Mostly this data comes from the first spike of Jund after the unbannings for that reason.
Goldfish indicates changes in the meta a bit better for that reason, but lacks a bit of a sight on the general meta as it doesn't keep track of the decks as long as mtgtop8. However, according to goldfish, Jund is trending down.
Good luck at GP Hartfort! See you in coverage
My feelings exactly. Have tried 1 & 2 mainboard & sideboard Tireless tracker and I have to agree with hellkite12: she does not belong in the mainboard ATM as she is -yet another- 3 drop wich you should deploy on turn 4 to make sure you get at least a clue. Once online it can be a real threat while also digging for answers.
In the mainboard I think it is a little clunky,I run 2 in the sideboard and it is a powerhouse against control. I also side her in (too much I think) against decks wich leave you with a lot of dead cards and requiere specific answers, such as Lantern control.
Honestly, if I had more experience as a player, I think I'd ran a single Hazoret and a more flexible sideboard as FlyingDelver proposes. However, in my local meta she works wonders (specially since she's so easy to splash with blood moon).
Exactly, however, results get entries a little slower than goldfish, and since I originally responed to a comment saying that Jund is right now on the top, I derived from that, that it wasnt looked at the last 2 weeks only. Because here you actually see Jund declining and not on the top.
Edit: For the record, I was only talking about running Anger. I’m not suggesting running Courser. I was just providing some context.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
If the trend continous though, it might be a good idea yes. The meta has to narrow down quite a bit though for it to be worthwhile.
I remember this! This is when Birthing Pod was at the top of its game. Jund worked it's way back into the meta as one of the "best decks" against birthing pod because it adopted a way to support Anger of the Gods as well as Chandra Pyromaster to keep the board clean, and deal with the pod effectively.