Reid Duke also brings in Grudge to hedge against the better draws of the deck. But its not the first card to bring in, more important are SPellbomb, Cage and Anger if you have them.
I've played a few Hollow One matchups - I found it wasn't so bad actually as I was able to consistently get 5/6 Tarmogoyfs since they have so many spells that dump cards into the graveyard you end up with a high chance of planeswalkers and artifacts in the graveyards. Once a Goyf is at 5/6 you get much more breathing room as you then have a wall.
Good maindeck cards were: Terminate for the Hollow Ones and Anglers, Scavenging Ooze, K Commands for the Hollow Ones and returning discarded Goyfs and Oozes, Lili the last Hope (to neuter the Blood Ghasts and blunt their attacks and take away their phoenix recurrence ability).
Sideboard cards that were good: Ancient Grudge (since you can also flash it back if ends up getting discarded to Burning Inquiry), Lili, the Last Hope if in the sideboard, Grafdigger's, Nihil Spellbomb.
I haven't played Anger of the Gods in a while due to the double-red - or more specifically the difficulty of predicting needing to be able to cast LoTV or Finks as well and it's very hard to move from a double green or double black spell to a double red spell on time or at all. Also, decks it is strong against (Company, Elves, and Merfolk) are less prevalent these days. Other creature heavy decks get around or outgrow Anger quickly (e.g. Humans, Affinity).
Decks with Angler/Hollow One/Tasigur/Eldrazi are one of the major reasons I find it bizarre and difficult to move to less than 2 Terminates (and I find it odd that some people have done so). In fact I still sometimes play 3 Terminates (I can count on some form of Eldrazi decks in my local meta). Terminate has always been one of the major reason to play red for me, the unconditional removal is a great asset.
I guess I could have been more clear. All I meant by "early removal" when I said "which doesn't do anything for us against aggressive decks that Treetop wouldn't in terms of casting our early removal." was bolt, push, decay, and terminate. Any one or two-drop removal spells. I know it (the juxtaposition between the two lands in the Aggro MU) is not that simple, and don't think I suggested it was. I meant what I said at face value:
When trying to cast Bolt, Push, Terminate, or Decay (with the occasional exception of Decay) in the first two turns, it doesn't matter whether you have a Forest or a Treetop.
At no point did I suggest this was the only consideration.
I know that you said that concerning early removal, and this is technically right. But from context it seemed to me that you wanted to say that this is the most important part of it and that treetop isnt that bad in comparizon to forest. And thats where I catched in and wanted to say that for different cases and in a more general way, Forest is still way better than treetop in this spot, and that casting early removal is not everything about it. Anyway, just wanted to address this, thats all.
No, man, you’re right. I went back and reread what I wrote, and I feel like it was the very last thing I said, the closing thought, that threw the whole thing off: “but that doesn't seem like a big enough difference in efficacy.”
I understand completely where you were coming from now. That was a misleading way to phrase that. I was referring specifically to the first couple of turns, and yet not intentionally implying that they were the primary context for concern in the MU. I just wanted to put them under the microscope for a second and address the juxtaposition in that context. But it it didn’t read that way at all, and I apologize for the confusion.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I’m not running any Anger. That makes sense that it (Grudge) wouldn’t be a priority side-in. Fortunately (unfortunately) we have a lot of dead cards against them, so I don’t think I’ll have any trouble finding room to side in both Grudges.
It seems the only lists doing well online are 25 land builds, running few or now terminates, mostly 2 Pulses and 5-6 discard. I have no idea how these lists can consistantly beat Hollow One, Affinity or Humans.
It seems the only lists doing well online are 25 land builds, running few or now terminates, mostly 2 Pulses and 5-6 discard. I have no idea how these lists can consistantly beat Hollow One, Affinity or Humans.
Don't the lists that drop terminates usually pick up 2-3 Fatal Push? That should cover Affinity and Humans appropriately and then the extra pulse covers decks like Hallow One.
Long time reader, first time posting. Here is my list that I plan on bringing to GP Hartford.
Lands (25)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (16)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Instants (8)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (7)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Seal of Primordium
Hollow One MU
-3 IOK
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Lightning Bolt (on the play) - 1 Grim Lavamancer (on the draw)
-3 Liliana of the veil
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Anger
+1 Cage
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Rakdos Charm
+2 Baloths
+1 Seal
The reason for baloths is because some decks run Burning Inquiry, and I have also had people bring in Liliana of the veil against me. Why they want to grind against jund I don't know. Seal is because some bring in bloodmoon so if they do, you have insurance if not, it can still kill hollow one. Seal has been amazing for me and not just in this MU but any bloodmoon deck. Highly recommended i might even go to 2 and lower to 1 grudge. I really got tired of cascading into Golgari Charm and not having a target. Somebody earlier asked about Lavamancer in the main. He has been unbelievable especially with Humans picking up steam. Please feel free to ask any question about the list and numbers.
How have the Baloths been for you? I feel like they're very playable now that Liliana/KCommand are major players in the format, not to mention its interaction with Burning Inquiry against Hallowed One.
Baloths have been great. So i used to run a thrun in the board for mirror match and control. the problem I noticed was i never drew it as a single copy and did not want to have a second in the 75. So I put in baloths and took out the thrun and moved the lavamancer to the main. What a difference. It helped close the gap in the Hollow one, Grixis Control and Burn MU.
It seems the only lists doing well online are 25 land builds, running few or now terminates, mostly 2 Pulses and 5-6 discard. I have no idea how these lists can consistantly beat Hollow One, Affinity or Humans.
Don't the lists that drop terminates usually pick up 2-3 Fatal Push? That should cover Affinity and Humans appropriately and then the extra pulse covers decks like Hallow One.
Nope, at least not maindeck if you play 25 lands and 15 creatures. Here is the latest Jund list that went 5-0 from tuesdays report:
Long time reader, first time posting. Here is my list that I plan on bringing to GP Hartford.
Lands (25)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (16)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Instants (8)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (7)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Seal of Primordium
Hollow One MU
-3 IOK
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Lightning Bolt (on the play) - 1 Grim Lavamancer (on the draw)
-3 Liliana of the veil
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Anger
+1 Cage
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Rakdos Charm
+2 Baloths
+1 Seal
The reason for baloths is because some decks run Burning Inquiry, and I have also had people bring in Liliana of the veil against me. Why they want to grind against jund I don't know. Seal is because some bring in bloodmoon so if they do, you have insurance if not, it can still kill hollow one. Seal has been amazing for me and not just in this MU but any bloodmoon deck. Highly recommended i might even go to 2 and lower to 1 grudge. I really got tired of cascading into Golgari Charm and not having a target. Somebody earlier asked about Lavamancer in the main. He has been unbelievable especially with Humans picking up steam. Please feel free to ask any question about the list and numbers.
My personal suggestions:
I would not run Blooming Marsh. Especially with 25 lands, I would play a fourth manland over it anytime.
I would at least replace that maindeck Push with Terminate if you don't run any copies otherwise.
4 Liliana of the Veil it always is. Its just a potent PW which can easily turn games around. I would not go below 4.
Against Hollow One, I don't think taking out targeted discard is right. Its the same like Dredge. You want to hit Looting, Goblin Lore, Burning Inquiry, delve threats or Hollow Ones. I also would leave Bolts in. Baloth and Inquiry is a neat trick, but I am not sure it is warranted to bring in 2 copies of baloth due to 4 cards of your opponent, or to play 2 copies of it in the SB in the first place.
Baloths have been great. So i used to run a thrun in the board for mirror match and control. the problem I noticed was i never drew it as a single copy and did not want to have a second in the 75. So I put in baloths and took out the thrun and moved the lavamancer to the main. What a difference. It helped close the gap in the Hollow one, Grixis Control and Burn MU.
Thanks for the reply! Baloths are absolutely backbreaking in the mirror, they block creatures all day (especially BBE), and can aggro a grixis player. I've had nothing but success with mine as well and think it's a matter of time before others adopt the card
I 5-0 a league against Burn, Eldrazi and Taxes, Mardu Pyromancer, Hollow One and Human. I follow pretty much the same side board guide as the primer. Here is the deck list - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1007853#paper
Thats the list I also found.
Game 4 against Mardu Pyromancer. We trade resources until he/she top deck a Bedlam Reveler in game one. I was out carded and lost. Game two I inquisition away a Bloodmoon and played two Tarmogoyfs in the next 2 turns.
Its funny because I believe in the Jund vs Mardu matchup both IOK (from Jund) and BM (from Mardu) shouldnt be in the deck in games 2 and 3.
All in all I think the 25 land deck is fine. I think the current amount of removal is ok. It requires a specific hand for each archetypes. So it's more important to be discipline on mulligans than stuffing decks with removals.
Mulligan harder yeah? Well, I am not sure about that. Whats the point in reducing important cards in various matchups to singletons or completely remove them from the deck and just mulligan harder more often for the miser copies? If thats the case frequently enough, then thats a sign for me that something isnt quite right.
Anyway, definitely respect for the 5-0 finish, keep Junding 'em out.
I didn't want to side out all of the Inquisition against Mardu. I shaved 1 or 2 of them. I definitely side out all of the Liliana of the veil. Bloodmoon can be a "got you" card when there is no fetch land in the opening hand. My opponent had two bloodmoon in his/her opening hand while I had no fetch land in game three.
My thinking is that this matchup is completely based on attrition and CA, which makes both IOK and BM bad topdecks and not attrition based cards. I would probably side out all discard before shaving LOTV, and end up with 1-2 LoTV instead of IOK after sb. But its definitely not wrong to side out all LOTV.
I know this has been discussed recently, but I personally am not a fan of Anger. I feel that our manabase isn’t super reliable to cast double red turn 3, and that good opponents will play around it. Also, decks like Humans can outgrow it. I’m not running any boardwipes right now, but if I had to I would run Damnation over Anger for its application against Etched Champion and Eldrazi. Anger is better against graveyard decks like Dredge, but I feel that Hollow One is the gy deck being played more right now; and Anger can’t kill mummies or Delve fatties. For now, both Anger and Damnation are in my maybebaord.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGx Decks for LifeBRGDiscard, Goyf, Liliana, Elf, Jund 'em out.BRG
can anyone give me tips on how to approach GR Ponza. Seems like even with sideboard guide in this primer, i'm still losing a ton. If you're in a vacuum, what would be a perfect 60 cards against this deck.
can anyone give me tips on how to approach GR Ponza. Seems like even with sideboard guide in this primer, i'm still losing a ton. If you're in a vacuum, what would be a perfect 60 cards against this deck.
What seems to be the problem exactly? The matchup can be dicey indeed.
Well for a perfect deck, of course more basics, more Decays and Pulses would be best.
can anyone give me tips on how to approach GR Ponza. Seems like even with sideboard guide in this primer, i'm still losing a ton. If you're in a vacuum, what would be a perfect 60 cards against this deck.
What seems to be the problem exactly? The matchup can be dicey indeed.
Well for a perfect deck, of course more basics, more Decays and Pulses would be best.
In my initial games. I've been losing to not fetching basic early on. That I've already fix my gameplay. I've also run into games when I can fetch for basic so I didn't bother target discard Blood Moon. But if they top deck a land destruction, I'm set back again. If I target discard Blood Moon, I lose to Inferno Titan most of the time. which maybe due to slow closing in my part. Also mulligan with Ponza is dicey too, dunno if I should keep keepable hands that doesn't have potential to fetch basic or should a Mull those.
Good maindeck cards were: Terminate for the Hollow Ones and Anglers, Scavenging Ooze, K Commands for the Hollow Ones and returning discarded Goyfs and Oozes, Lili the last Hope (to neuter the Blood Ghasts and blunt their attacks and take away their phoenix recurrence ability).
Sideboard cards that were good: Ancient Grudge (since you can also flash it back if ends up getting discarded to Burning Inquiry), Lili, the Last Hope if in the sideboard, Grafdigger's, Nihil Spellbomb.
I haven't played Anger of the Gods in a while due to the double-red - or more specifically the difficulty of predicting needing to be able to cast LoTV or Finks as well and it's very hard to move from a double green or double black spell to a double red spell on time or at all. Also, decks it is strong against (Company, Elves, and Merfolk) are less prevalent these days. Other creature heavy decks get around or outgrow Anger quickly (e.g. Humans, Affinity).
Decks with Angler/Hollow One/Tasigur/Eldrazi are one of the major reasons I find it bizarre and difficult to move to less than 2 Terminates (and I find it odd that some people have done so). In fact I still sometimes play 3 Terminates (I can count on some form of Eldrazi decks in my local meta). Terminate has always been one of the major reason to play red for me, the unconditional removal is a great asset.
Thoughts?
No, man, you’re right. I went back and reread what I wrote, and I feel like it was the very last thing I said, the closing thought, that threw the whole thing off: “but that doesn't seem like a big enough difference in efficacy.”
I understand completely where you were coming from now. That was a misleading way to phrase that. I was referring specifically to the first couple of turns, and yet not intentionally implying that they were the primary context for concern in the MU. I just wanted to put them under the microscope for a second and address the juxtaposition in that context. But it it didn’t read that way at all, and I apologize for the confusion.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I’m not running any Anger. That makes sense that it (Grudge) wouldn’t be a priority side-in. Fortunately (unfortunately) we have a lot of dead cards against them, so I don’t think I’ll have any trouble finding room to side in both Grudges.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I'm on 2 terminate right now alongside a Damnation. Anger doesn't cut it sometimes and double red can be a problem.
Don't the lists that drop terminates usually pick up 2-3 Fatal Push? That should cover Affinity and Humans appropriately and then the extra pulse covers decks like Hallow One.
Lands (25)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (16)
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Instants (8)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (7)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Seal of Primordium
Hollow One MU
-3 IOK
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Lightning Bolt (on the play) - 1 Grim Lavamancer (on the draw)
-3 Liliana of the veil
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Anger
+1 Cage
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Rakdos Charm
+2 Baloths
+1 Seal
The reason for baloths is because some decks run Burning Inquiry, and I have also had people bring in Liliana of the veil against me. Why they want to grind against jund I don't know. Seal is because some bring in bloodmoon so if they do, you have insurance if not, it can still kill hollow one. Seal has been amazing for me and not just in this MU but any bloodmoon deck. Highly recommended i might even go to 2 and lower to 1 grudge. I really got tired of cascading into Golgari Charm and not having a target. Somebody earlier asked about Lavamancer in the main. He has been unbelievable especially with Humans picking up steam. Please feel free to ask any question about the list and numbers.
How have the Baloths been for you? I feel like they're very playable now that Liliana/KCommand are major players in the format, not to mention its interaction with Burning Inquiry against Hallowed One.
Nope, at least not maindeck if you play 25 lands and 15 creatures. Here is the latest Jund list that went 5-0 from tuesdays report:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blooming Marsh
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures [15]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fatal Push
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Grafdigger's Cage
My personal suggestions:
Thanks for the reply! Baloths are absolutely backbreaking in the mirror, they block creatures all day (especially BBE), and can aggro a grixis player. I've had nothing but success with mine as well and think it's a matter of time before others adopt the card
Mulligan harder yeah? Well, I am not sure about that. Whats the point in reducing important cards in various matchups to singletons or completely remove them from the deck and just mulligan harder more often for the miser copies? If thats the case frequently enough, then thats a sign for me that something isnt quite right.
Anyway, definitely respect for the 5-0 finish, keep Junding 'em out.
My thinking is that this matchup is completely based on attrition and CA, which makes both IOK and BM bad topdecks and not attrition based cards. I would probably side out all discard before shaving LOTV, and end up with 1-2 LoTV instead of IOK after sb. But its definitely not wrong to side out all LOTV.
What seems to be the problem exactly? The matchup can be dicey indeed.
Well for a perfect deck, of course more basics, more Decays and Pulses would be best.
ty for the tips Flying Delver. I'll try taking out sweepers for golgari charm and maybe replace a Fatal Push for a Abrupt Decay.
In my initial games. I've been losing to not fetching basic early on. That I've already fix my gameplay. I've also run into games when I can fetch for basic so I didn't bother target discard Blood Moon. But if they top deck a land destruction, I'm set back again. If I target discard Blood Moon, I lose to Inferno Titan most of the time. which maybe due to slow closing in my part. Also mulligan with Ponza is dicey too, dunno if I should keep keepable hands that doesn't have potential to fetch basic or should a Mull those.