Is anyone else considering running 1 or 2 kitchen finks MB? It’s alaways a relevant cascade target with BBE, and I find myself siding them in the majority of matches.
Since I personally am more a fan of being able to interact early in the game (thus wanting to increase CMC 1 spells) and am also trying to play 24 lands due to that, I won't find a place for a 3 drop like that. If I would include more 3 drops it would be Liliana the Last Hope maindeck. But right now I am happy with my 7 three drops in the maindeck (4 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 1 Pulse).
If you are running 25 lands, I am finding it even harder to find a place for finks maindeck, at least kind of. You almost certainly cannot play 3 Ooze in that case.
I played in my LGS this weekend and Burn is a very difficult match, after being hit in the first match I put the SB and even doing IOK in the first round looking at the opponent's hand: Bolt, Lava Spike, Lava Spike, Lava Spike, Skullcrack, Mountanha and Fasta land RW, I took the bolt my opponent did Goblin guide attacked me on my turn I do a CB for the three modes and shot a Skullcrack because I had a Scooze in the hand, I turn the turn and then I do the Scooze my opponent had bought a Helix and killed him. then he killed me quickly. Out: 4 Bob 2 TS In: 1 scooze 2 CB 1 Finks and 2 FM. I'm sure I will want to play with 2 Finks now
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Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Had good results again with the 24 land, 12x 1 CMC spell list. Second 3-0 result in a row.
Beat Affinity 2-0 in both rounds 1 and 2, and Burn 2-1 in round 3.
At this juncture, having early access to cheap kill spells / discard feels integral. I'm quite reluctant to want to move back to the clunkier 25 land builds.
Damnation overperformed for me from the sideboard, wiping out the Affinity players' boards in both post-board games in both rounds. I 4 for 1'ed him on turn 4 despite being on the draw, at 4 life. 2 of those creatures were Etched Champions. Then landed Ooze next turn to lock up the game.
I think that with 6x 1CMC removal, 3x 2CMC removal, Kommand and Pulses backed by Liliana, we don't need Anger in the board to kill little critters. Therefore I used Damnation in its place in view of Eldrazi and Etched Champion. It's a good O ***** button.
Glad the approach performs well! Affinity and Burn are in my opinion actually dream matches with this particular list. I personally want to beat exactly those decks, which tend to be on the rise again. Here you can really see the power of the approach.
6 discard is just really helping doing the Jund thing, I want to maximize the chances of going turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf/bob into turn 3 Liliana. Thats Jund for me and this sequencing can win any match against any opponent.
Have you tried 4 manlands in the 24 land suite yet, like Reid Duke suggested?
I do agree its not necessary to have Anger in the 24 land build. However, its possible if desired. Damnation is a decent card, but can be clunky, I personally run EE now instead, which is of course weaker to Eldrazi though. But I personally want to hedge more against Bogles with the option of being a decent sweeper against the rest of the field.
I'll take out the basic mountain for TTV for my modern event tomorrow and report back.
Against burn, it felt super good to be able to fetch without shocking for that innocuous, much-maligned mountain to cast Bolt early though. Even I was surprised, I had thought that its usefulness ended with the Field of Ruin interaction.
EE v Damnation would be meta dependent. There's a rash of GR Eldrazi popping up in my area recently and I can only handle so many turn 2 TKS. I don't see any Bogles locally as well. YMMV.
EE can blow up random irritating enchantments as well.
Regarding the burn matchup, one thing worth mentioning here is the cards you need in order to win (btw I find the hand posted + the draws you mentioned very hard to beat)
Goyf is your best card in the matchup.
This cannot be stressed enough. The rest of your cards exist in this matchup to give goyf time to win the game for you. If your goyf is to die this matchup it should only be to path or 2x burn spells.
I find scavenging ooze a very good lightning rod. Consider it something the burn player will aim burn at, but that you are fine trading away most of the time.
Discard spells are clearly good here, but sometimes I just hold up removal turn one - there’s a good chance your opponent will still have targets for your discard turn two - and this way you may end up starting turn two still at 20 life.
All in all I don’t think we need that much from our board to beat burn. 2x brutalities and about 4 other cards to bring in is fine. You just need to aim at playing a goyf around turn 3 or 4. If they have spell heavy hands with lots of 1 drop spells and two lands we might be in trouble - but luckily for us they need creatures to win most games, and those we’re very good at removing.
The preboarded games I find that I loose relatively compared to how many bobs / Thoughtseize I draw. I consider both of these cards dead and attempt to avoid playing either if I can help it.
I enjoyed running that Mountain a lot when I was. Sometimes the only thing you’re really lacking is that red source and it’s nice to be able to fetch it pain-free, like you said. It was nice to have, but not nice enough. This 24 land build is where it’s at.
Paulotheodoro, I’m curious, are you running 24 or 25 lands? My Burn opponents have expressed feeing a little helpless against all that cheap discard and removal. As long as I can find a Goyf or a Scooze to go with it, I’m usually walkin’ in high cotton.
I haven’t had any trouble at all with the Affinity or Burn MU. And Humans feels good. The MB Lavaman may be a turn slower than the Fatal Push he replaced, but once he’s online, he’s golden in these MU’s.
We’re worse for the mirror with this build I feel, but as I get better I think I can shore it up. My new sideboard ought to help too.
RG Eldrazi is rough. If it was at my LGS I’d be thinking hard about SB alternatives. Same with Jund Elves. Fortunately I’m the only one who has that sleeved up there, but I’m not running it because I’m having so much fun with Jund. Same goes for Living End.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
We’re worse for the mirror with this build I feel, but as I get better I think I can shore it up. My new sideboard ought to help too.
Yes, however, the way I see it is that you can either squeeze a mirror bomb in the SB to help with that (like Hazoret or Huntmaster) or accept that out of 20 games you only win 9 or whatever. I personally like to consistantly win aggro matchups or combo matchups more. Unless I face more mirror matches than I like of course.
I'm running with 24 lands, 3 RaRa and 1 TTV, I think it was very unlucky because I did not find a goyf or another scooze or even a Finks. And my opponent's hand was very good.
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Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
I'm running with 24 lands, 3 RaRa and 1 TTV, I think it was very unlucky because I did not find a goyf or another scooze or even a Finks. And my opponent's hand was very good.
How do you like the 4 manlands in a 24 land build?
FlyingDelver, do you like the Mark Larson deck from SCG Open Team from the last weekend?
I liked a lot the MB and SB. I am using a similar deck right now just some chances where I use -1 Bloodstained Mire +1 Forest MB and -1 Grafdigger's Cage +1 Nihill Spellbomb
FlyingDelver, do you like the Mark Larson deck from SCG Open Team from the last weekend?
I liked a lot the MB and SB. I am using a similar deck right now just some chances where I use -1 Bloodstained Mire +1 Forest MB and -1 Grafdigger's Cage +1 Nihill Spellbomb
Looks good if it worked for him, but I personally would love the 6th discard spell main and am not so high on cutting terminates all together. Looks like a popular 25 land list to me, which is solid, but lacks a bit of early interaction which can be costly in aggressive matchups.
Against burn, what you need is a clock. Goyf is usually your best bet until/unless RIP is cast. Without a clock, I've resolved full-mode Brutalities before and still lost. Definitely look for a clock in your starting hands.
I would not necessarily agree with that. Its completely situation dependant. Creature-light draws from the Burn player can make Finks not impactful enough and also too slow as a clock. If they just ignore your finks, you will likely only get 2 life from it and it coming down on turn 3 with only 3 power is arguable not enough as a clock. Finks is best when it holds back creatures from the burn player and gives you 4 life from its triggers while trading with 2 creatures from the opponent over the course of it.
CB is always impactful on the other hand. It kills creatures, gets life back and can deal with spell heavy hands from the burn player. Of course CB doesn't provide a clock, but again I think Finks as a clock is often not enough on its own. I have more times lost with an low impact finks against the more spellheavy draws from Burn than with CB against any hand from Burn.
But I do think that both Finks and CB alone won't win you the match if you don't pair it with another decent clock.
Finks has an advantage over CB in that sense though that it pairs well with LoTV and discard spells, which could potentially be enough to slow the burn player down that the clock of Finks alone is enough. In that sense Finks pairs better with more cards from our deck, wheras CB needs a clock specifcally. In a vacuum though, I think CB is giving us more time than Finks usually.
If you use Finks as a stall engine and the burn player does not have a creature in play, it can sometimes (rarely, but it happens) be worth it to just kill off your own finks (sac to lily or decay, etc.) just to gain 2 life. I've had that move win me a game before. Nothing fancy here, just mentioning it as, when you're in the game it is not necessarily the most obvious move.
I tend to mulligan hands without some clock in my hands against burn (goyf or hazoret if you run it). Keeping with the hazoret in hand has costed me a game before though. I did not have much removal and a Guide ended up attacking me several times, revealing lands quite a bit - meaning my hazoret could never get online. Also, this is a matchup where mulliganing does not cost as much as usual. The games we loose we often loose with cards in hand, and the same goes for the ones we win. We don't need many cards, we need the right ones.
I have found the single RiP/Relic draws from burn the most awful hands to play against from our side. I like K Command, Decay and, in case there's nothing great to board in, even the Pulse for this reason. We need cards to go to the graveyard.
Yeah of course you will kill your own Finks if there are no opposing creatures and you have low life totals.
Relic is tough to beat, if the burn player has a stacked hand alongside it. It stops Ooze from bringin us back into the game after dealing with a wave of creatures from the burn player.
I tend to mulligan hands without some clock in my hands against burn (goyf or hazoret if you run it). Keeping with the hazoret in hand has costed me a game before though. I did not have much removal and a Guide ended up attacking me several times, revealing lands quite a bit - meaning my hazoret could never get online. Also, this is a matchup where mulliganing does not cost as much as usual. The games we loose we often loose with cards in hand, and the same goes for the ones we win. We don't need many cards, we need the right ones.
As a former burn player, I couldn't agree more.
Quote from FlyingDelver »"url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/770899-jund?comment=4599 »
Since I am actually curious about the issue and on Reid's opinion, I am giving Treetop a try, because the heck why not. This is my updated list for the upcoming week:
The things which are in my opinion flexible in this list, are the following things:
Landbase: The fourth basic can be a ninth fetchland or as I will try it now, a Treetop.
Creatures: With the high amount of one mana spells I am happy with the creature suite, the only thing doable is adding an Ooze maybe.
Spells: I would recommend going for that approach, I personally love the spellsuite as soon as I touched it. It interesting to consider - 1 Command and +1 LtLH, but I like 2 Commands for now, especially with only 1 Grudge.
Sideboard: I honestly am considering the third Fulminator to be flexible, maybe its a good idea to cut it for a Hazoret. Golgari Charm could be a second Grudge or a Maelstrom Pulse and EE could be an Anger. Grafdigger's Cage or Ooze could be one more Spellbomb. The rest is kinda fixed for me.
All in all, a template for my approach could be this:
24 lands: 3-4 manlands (will see what turns out to be more right)
14-15 creatures (only 11 one mana spells if 15)
22 Noncreature Spells:
11-12 one mana spells (4/2 discard, 3/3 bolt/push, if 15 creatures then cut a Push supposedly)
3 hard removal (2 terminate and 1 Pulse)
3-4 flexible tools (1-2 Command (only 1 if you play LtLH main, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse)
4-5 Lili PWs.
Sideboard:
2-3 Fulminator
3 GY hate pieces ( if 3 Ooze main, only 2 can work)
3 extra removal/sweeper for smaller creatures (EE/Anger, LtLH, 1 Grim)
2 artifact/enchantment hate (Grudge, Charm)
2 CB
2 Finks
FlyingDelver, are you still running this list? How did it feel? After the initial very good results I took [card}Blood moon[/card] out of the mainboard and still got wrecked by Affinity (some bad luck, tough) and Burn (with a mulligan down to 5). Loosing to affinity is a real wake-up call for me and I think that you are right about the 12 1-CMC spells to gain early interaction.
BTW, I've played 24 lands with 3 RaRa and 1 TTV and replaced the TTV with a forest since and haven't missed it. The card is solid, but I don't feel it wins any matchup on it's own and since it is not a basic and it can't be fetched it breaks it for me.
@andyburgos I love the approach thus far, cannot recommend it enough. You need to be aware that you lack the extra umph in the mirror though.
I have to say including TTV in my 24 landsuite seems particularly interesting especially due to the mentioned lack in powerlevel for the mirror. Manlands are usually what stay after the dust settles and can win you the game easily. Therefore I think TTV is definitely not a card you would miss in aggro matchups, but in attrition based and grindy matchups. And I am looking to see how bad TTV is in aggro matchups. If I don't see a significant impact for the aggro matchups, I think its safe to run 4 manlands in the 24 land build.
Since I personally am more a fan of being able to interact early in the game (thus wanting to increase CMC 1 spells) and am also trying to play 24 lands due to that, I won't find a place for a 3 drop like that. If I would include more 3 drops it would be Liliana the Last Hope maindeck. But right now I am happy with my 7 three drops in the maindeck (4 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 1 Pulse).
If you are running 25 lands, I am finding it even harder to find a place for finks maindeck, at least kind of. You almost certainly cannot play 3 Ooze in that case.
I played in my LGS this weekend and Burn is a very difficult match, after being hit in the first match I put the SB and even doing IOK in the first round looking at the opponent's hand: Bolt, Lava Spike, Lava Spike, Lava Spike, Skullcrack, Mountanha and Fasta land RW, I took the bolt my opponent did Goblin guide attacked me on my turn I do a CB for the three modes and shot a Skullcrack because I had a Scooze in the hand, I turn the turn and then I do the Scooze my opponent had bought a Helix and killed him. then he killed me quickly. Out: 4 Bob 2 TS In: 1 scooze 2 CB 1 Finks and 2 FM. I'm sure I will want to play with 2 Finks now
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Beat Affinity 2-0 in both rounds 1 and 2, and Burn 2-1 in round 3.
At this juncture, having early access to cheap kill spells / discard feels integral. I'm quite reluctant to want to move back to the clunkier 25 land builds.
Damnation overperformed for me from the sideboard, wiping out the Affinity players' boards in both post-board games in both rounds. I 4 for 1'ed him on turn 4 despite being on the draw, at 4 life. 2 of those creatures were Etched Champions. Then landed Ooze next turn to lock up the game.
I think that with 6x 1CMC removal, 3x 2CMC removal, Kommand and Pulses backed by Liliana, we don't need Anger in the board to kill little critters. Therefore I used Damnation in its place in view of Eldrazi and Etched Champion. It's a good O ***** button.
6 discard is just really helping doing the Jund thing, I want to maximize the chances of going turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf/bob into turn 3 Liliana. Thats Jund for me and this sequencing can win any match against any opponent.
Have you tried 4 manlands in the 24 land suite yet, like Reid Duke suggested?
I do agree its not necessary to have Anger in the 24 land build. However, its possible if desired. Damnation is a decent card, but can be clunky, I personally run EE now instead, which is of course weaker to Eldrazi though. But I personally want to hedge more against Bogles with the option of being a decent sweeper against the rest of the field.
Against burn, it felt super good to be able to fetch without shocking for that innocuous, much-maligned mountain to cast Bolt early though. Even I was surprised, I had thought that its usefulness ended with the Field of Ruin interaction.
EE v Damnation would be meta dependent. There's a rash of GR Eldrazi popping up in my area recently and I can only handle so many turn 2 TKS. I don't see any Bogles locally as well. YMMV.
EE can blow up random irritating enchantments as well.
Goyf is your best card in the matchup.
This cannot be stressed enough. The rest of your cards exist in this matchup to give goyf time to win the game for you. If your goyf is to die this matchup it should only be to path or 2x burn spells.
I find scavenging ooze a very good lightning rod. Consider it something the burn player will aim burn at, but that you are fine trading away most of the time.
Discard spells are clearly good here, but sometimes I just hold up removal turn one - there’s a good chance your opponent will still have targets for your discard turn two - and this way you may end up starting turn two still at 20 life.
All in all I don’t think we need that much from our board to beat burn. 2x brutalities and about 4 other cards to bring in is fine. You just need to aim at playing a goyf around turn 3 or 4. If they have spell heavy hands with lots of 1 drop spells and two lands we might be in trouble - but luckily for us they need creatures to win most games, and those we’re very good at removing.
The preboarded games I find that I loose relatively compared to how many bobs / Thoughtseize I draw. I consider both of these cards dead and attempt to avoid playing either if I can help it.
Paulotheodoro, I’m curious, are you running 24 or 25 lands? My Burn opponents have expressed feeing a little helpless against all that cheap discard and removal. As long as I can find a Goyf or a Scooze to go with it, I’m usually walkin’ in high cotton.
I haven’t had any trouble at all with the Affinity or Burn MU. And Humans feels good. The MB Lavaman may be a turn slower than the Fatal Push he replaced, but once he’s online, he’s golden in these MU’s.
We’re worse for the mirror with this build I feel, but as I get better I think I can shore it up. My new sideboard ought to help too.
RG Eldrazi is rough. If it was at my LGS I’d be thinking hard about SB alternatives. Same with Jund Elves. Fortunately I’m the only one who has that sleeved up there, but I’m not running it because I’m having so much fun with Jund. Same goes for Living End.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Yes, however, the way I see it is that you can either squeeze a mirror bomb in the SB to help with that (like Hazoret or Huntmaster) or accept that out of 20 games you only win 9 or whatever. I personally like to consistantly win aggro matchups or combo matchups more. Unless I face more mirror matches than I like of course.
I'm running with 24 lands, 3 RaRa and 1 TTV, I think it was very unlucky because I did not find a goyf or another scooze or even a Finks. And my opponent's hand was very good.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
How do you like the 4 manlands in a 24 land build?
I liked a lot the MB and SB. I am using a similar deck right now just some chances where I use -1 Bloodstained Mire +1 Forest MB and -1 Grafdigger's Cage +1 Nihill Spellbomb
Looks good if it worked for him, but I personally would love the 6th discard spell main and am not so high on cutting terminates all together. Looks like a popular 25 land list to me, which is solid, but lacks a bit of early interaction which can be costly in aggressive matchups.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
CB is always impactful on the other hand. It kills creatures, gets life back and can deal with spell heavy hands from the burn player. Of course CB doesn't provide a clock, but again I think Finks as a clock is often not enough on its own. I have more times lost with an low impact finks against the more spellheavy draws from Burn than with CB against any hand from Burn.
But I do think that both Finks and CB alone won't win you the match if you don't pair it with another decent clock.
Finks has an advantage over CB in that sense though that it pairs well with LoTV and discard spells, which could potentially be enough to slow the burn player down that the clock of Finks alone is enough. In that sense Finks pairs better with more cards from our deck, wheras CB needs a clock specifcally. In a vacuum though, I think CB is giving us more time than Finks usually.
I tend to mulligan hands without some clock in my hands against burn (goyf or hazoret if you run it). Keeping with the hazoret in hand has costed me a game before though. I did not have much removal and a Guide ended up attacking me several times, revealing lands quite a bit - meaning my hazoret could never get online. Also, this is a matchup where mulliganing does not cost as much as usual. The games we loose we often loose with cards in hand, and the same goes for the ones we win. We don't need many cards, we need the right ones.
I have found the single RiP/Relic draws from burn the most awful hands to play against from our side. I like K Command, Decay and, in case there's nothing great to board in, even the Pulse for this reason. We need cards to go to the graveyard.
Relic is tough to beat, if the burn player has a stacked hand alongside it. It stops Ooze from bringin us back into the game after dealing with a wave of creatures from the burn player.
As a former burn player, I couldn't agree more.
FlyingDelver, are you still running this list? How did it feel? After the initial very good results I took [card}Blood moon[/card] out of the mainboard and still got wrecked by Affinity (some bad luck, tough) and Burn (with a mulligan down to 5). Loosing to affinity is a real wake-up call for me and I think that you are right about the 12 1-CMC spells to gain early interaction.
BTW, I've played 24 lands with 3 RaRa and 1 TTV and replaced the TTV with a forest since and haven't missed it. The card is solid, but I don't feel it wins any matchup on it's own and since it is not a basic and it can't be fetched it breaks it for me.
I have to say including TTV in my 24 landsuite seems particularly interesting especially due to the mentioned lack in powerlevel for the mirror. Manlands are usually what stay after the dust settles and can win you the game easily. Therefore I think TTV is definitely not a card you would miss in aggro matchups, but in attrition based and grindy matchups. And I am looking to see how bad TTV is in aggro matchups. If I don't see a significant impact for the aggro matchups, I think its safe to run 4 manlands in the 24 land build.