Have any of you considered playing Tireless Tracker instead of 4-CMC stuff or something else?
I've been testing a 1-of Tireless Tracker over a Huntmaster in the main and when it's good, it's really good. The last game I played it got up to 8/7 and I drew five extra cards. I've been a fan of Huntmaster for awhile but what's kind of turning me off about it is that being a 4/4 just isn't impressive when playing against Tasigur, Eldrazi, Death's Shadow, and Goyf. Dropping it on turn four and playing a fetch is just sweet, sweet value.
Do you still play Kalitas somewhere in your 75? If so, where?
I think boarding out inquisitions is the wrong approach but this is obviously debateable.
I'm more concerned about your recommendations on what to bring in.
You suggest Thrun and Night of Souls Betrayal vs EldraziTron, for me this seems more like a copy paste from the bant eldrazi guide thn any useful recommendation.
The point is to make your deck better after sideboarding not worse and jund definitly has the tools to make the matchup slightly less painful.
Therefor and because I didn't find any useful insight in the primer I asked fellow jund players on their solution for the matchup.
I honestly don't know what this statement should mean. This is not constructive at all and won't help you, me or anybody else here. Don't get me wrong, I am open to any suggestions to improve the primer, and I am happy for any constructive input, but the emphasize is on constructive here.
You said boarding out IOK is wrong, can you give statements on why exactly? We need to make room for some sideboard cards, and IOK does not hit much at all from the deck. The cards which it hits basically, can be answered with KCommand on the BF. There's decisions to be made and some cards just have to be cut.
With a standard sideboard list from a standard regular Jund list, what are your suggestions to bring in then? It seems you have a pretty good impression on what you like and what you don't like in that matchup, why even asking in the first place then? Concerning NoSB and Thrun specifically, I think you might didn't understand the way the guide is set up (which I stated in the primer actually). Its not a must to bring those cards in, but its a selection of cards in order of priority, and depends on the amount of cards to be cut and on deck configuration. And if you think those cards are not worth to bring in, please state why.
So since you feel its just a copy paste from Bant Eldrazi (which it just isn't btw), a completely different matchup, this is an argument on why the suggestions are bad for this matchup? Sorry I guess I don't get this kind of logic. This is just absolutely not constructive at all and doesn't make any sense.
Up until now, you haven't made a single argument on why the suggestions are bad, the only thing you say is that the suggestions are wrong, copied and pasted or making the deck worse. So, if there is anything constructive to add to this topic, actually state it and help improve the sideboard plan for the matchup rather than just accusing everything to be wrong.
Have any of you considered playing Tireless Tracker instead of 4-CMC stuff or something else?
I've been testing a 1-of Tireless Tracker over a Huntmaster in the main and when it's good, it's really good. The last game I played it got up to 8/7 and I drew five extra cards. I've been a fan of Huntmaster for awhile but what's kind of turning me off about it is that being a 4/4 just isn't impressive when playing against Tasigur, Eldrazi, Death's Shadow, and Goyf. Dropping it on turn four and playing a fetch is just sweet, sweet value.
Do you still play Kalitas somewhere in your 75? If so, where?
I have one in the SB but I'm considering dropping Huntmaster and going either 1x Kalitas 1x Tireless Tracker main with 1x Kalitas SB, or 2x Kalitas main and Tracker in the SB. I prefer Kalitas over Huntmaster personally but I was trying out the Huntmasters main for awhile and now I'm moving back to Kalitas.
I'm more concerned about your recommendations on what to bring in.
You suggest Thrun and Night of Souls Betrayal vs EldraziTron, for me this seems more like a copy paste from the bant eldrazi guide thn any useful recommendation.
So you're not concerned that Eldrazi Displacer + Drowner of Hope is an issue? Because that looks like a lot of board control to me. No Eldrazi Scions means they have to turn lands sideways. If we can't even force them to do that, you're just hosed. It also has a nice side effect of making Lightning Bolt useful against Thought-Knot Seer on its own.
The point is to make your deck better after sideboarding not worse and jund definitly has the tools to make the matchup slightly less painful.
Like what?
Therefor and because I didn't find any useful insight in the primer I asked fellow jund players on their solution for the matchup.
Why ask? You seem to know everything.
Honestly, the Bant Eldrazi matchup isn't that tough to me. Everyone who's still freaking out about this match is probably playing it wrong. I will say it's close to a 50/50 match though so you can't play "loose" against it if you hope to win, and they do have the advantage in better and powerful creatures. However, everything I've seen in the guide concerning this match is fine. If you want to criticize, bring something to table. I mean you don't even mention why you think boarding out Inquisition is wrong or why the sideboard guide isn't correct. Is there something new in Bant Eldrazi that's making waves? Are there suddenly more/better/different interactions that are suddenly less obscure? Do you have some insight on how the deck may have re-formed? Give FlyingDelver (and the rest of us) something because he's not going to erase all of his work and type in "Because Feinunze said so."
Have any of you considered playing Tireless Tracker instead of 4-CMC stuff or something else?
I tried him in the past, over 1 Huntmaster. My experience is that he is not suitable for the mainboard, in an open meta at least. Not a fast enough clock against some of the big mana/ combo decks. A poor (and overcosted) blocker against aggressive decks. Huntmaster is a bit more well rounded in my opinion. Tracker can definitely take over games but I wouldn't main board it unless you are expecting lots of midrange / control matchups
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Current Standard Decks:
G/R Monsters
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Current Modern Decks:
RUG Splinter Twin
Boros Sunforger
So if I understand this correctly, you want to know what makes our match better against "light" Tron (not Bant Eldrazi)? The answer is nothing. If you feel Jund has the tools for that match, then by all means share what you've come up with because Eldrazi Tron is almost as crappy a match as just regular Tron. Just with more beats on curve. If you think keeping in Inquisition is going to help you, good luck.
Tomorrow I am going to participate in GPT Las Vegas at my LGS in Singapore. Hope that I can have a good performance and I will update any good news accordingly.
@Feinunze Thrun is a fine card vs them as he blocks their big creatures as long as you have mana to regenerate him. I think Thrun is finding application here because of that. It lets you dig deeper to find answer for their threats. I admit NoSB is probably not the best card for the matchup, I think Thrun is higher in priority to bring in. NoSB can potentially lower Eldrazi creatures to make your bolt more effective. Getting to bolt an TKS seems alright. But its not the best. Overall though, this is just the single one card which I admit is probably wrongly suggested in the primer, and calling the whole guide to be "not any useful recommendation" is quite harsh.
When thinking about it, Olivia Voldaren is probably worth mentioning to bring in, if she is in the SB. She can fly over their creatures, take control over them or grow bigger then theirs.
Have any of you considered playing Tireless Tracker instead of 4-CMC stuff or something else?
Tireless Tracker is 'really' good. The fact that it is a possible card draw engine while getting bigger from us drawing the cards is just an added plus. I do think that for now at least to run 1 mainboard and see how it does, adding another one will be tough in trying to figure out what to cut out in the end.
I think saying Eldrazi Displacer isn't a power card is slightly perilous - that thing can end games swiftly if left unchecked.
True. It does wreak havoc on its own, but every piece of removal we have hits it. Now, if they somehow control two of them, it's time to scoop it up and move on. I guess I shouldn't have said it like that.
I played in a 18 man GPT last Saturday by using Blood Moon Jund and finished at Top 4.
I was expecting a lot of death shadow jund so I drop bolt for push, and kalitas for huntmaster.
Heres my 75 and my results :
Lantern control 2-1
Sun and moon 2-0
Jeskai control 1-2
Bant Knightfall 2-0
ID
Top 8 Abzan 2-1
Top 4 Sun and moon 0-2
I don't miss bolt and huntmaster is so good all day long. Huntmaster plus command is just how I beat Abzan and his Gideon.
I faced a lot of Leyline of Sanctity that day and really hated that card. Is there any suggestion to deal with the Leyline of Sanctity in the side board games? Maybe drop some discards or mulligan aggressively or some enchant removal?
My Abzan opponent said that in the BGX mirror, depending on the play/draw, leave 2-3 discard spell in the deck is better than siding out all the discards. But I thought the discards are the worst topdeck in the mirror. Is there anything I am missing?
I played in a 18 man GPT last Saturday by using Blood Moon Jund and finished at Top 4.
I was expecting a lot of death shadow jund so I drop bolt for push, and kalitas for huntmaster.
Heres my 75 and my results :
Lantern control 2-1
Sun and moon 2-0
Jeskai control 1-2
Bant Knightfall 2-0
ID
Top 8 Abzan 2-1
Top 4 Sun and moon 0-2
I don't miss bolt and huntmaster is so good all day long. Huntmaster plus command is just how I beat Abzan and his Gideon.
I faced a lot of Leyline of Sanctity that day and really hated that card. Is there any suggestion to deal with the Leyline of Sanctity in the side board games? Maybe drop some discards or mulligan aggressively or some enchant removal?
My Abzan opponent said that in the BGX mirror, depending on the play/draw, leave 2-3 discard spell in the deck is better than siding out all the discards. But I thought the discards are the worst topdeck in the mirror. Is there anything I am missing?
Interesting to completely drop bolt. For Leyline of Sanctity, you can side out a bunch of discard spells, but I would not side out all of them. We have Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it which I would suggest to run MB. I think 4 CB in the 75 is a bit too much, you can easily cut one CB from the MB to have a Pulse MB.
For Abzan, definitely cut all discard spells. Its wrong to leave a few in, you are not missing anything.
[quote from="bonnbonn83 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/770899-jund?comment=460"]I played in a 18 man GPT last Saturday by using Blood Moon Jund and finished at Top 4.
I was expecting a lot of death shadow jund so I drop bolt for push, and kalitas for huntmaster.
Heres my 75 and my results :
Lantern control 2-1
Sun and moon 2-0
Jeskai control 1-2
Bant Knightfall 2-0
ID
Top 8 Abzan 2-1
Top 4 Sun and moon 0-2
I don't miss bolt and huntmaster is so good all day long. Huntmaster plus command is just how I beat Abzan and his Gideon.
I faced a lot of Leyline of Sanctity that day and really hated that card. Is there any suggestion to deal with the Leyline of Sanctity in the side board games? Maybe drop some discards or mulligan aggressively or some enchant removal?
My Abzan opponent said that in the BGX mirror, depending on the play/draw, leave 2-3 discard spell in the deck is better than siding out all the discards. But I thought the discards are the worst topdeck in the mirror. Is there anything I am missing?
Interesting to completely drop bolt. For Leyline of Sanctity, you can side out a bunch of discard spells, but I would not side out all of them. We have Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it which I would suggest to run MB. I think 4 CB in the 75 is a bit too much, you can easily cut one CB from the MB to have a Pulse MB.
The full set of CB is for the burn matchup, because this deck can't afford to play ooze or finks to gain life. Even though BM could shot down some burn spells such as boros charm ,atarka command and helix, but still I think CB is really good against burn. I think I will work on the MB to fit a pulse to test it, thank you for the suggestion.
For Abzan, definitely cut all discard spells. Its wrong to leave a few in, you are not missing anything.
Glad to hear that!
How did your manabase do with the BM maindeck?
I think the manabase is fine, just have to think twice before fetching the SL or the basics. I fetch for a swamp first most of the time, the second basic would be the 2nd swamp or forest, depand on the matchup and your hand.
That is a sweet decklist. Doing something different while keeping the strongest pieces of Jund in place.
If Leyline is giving you fits you could look at siding another card to destroy enchantments. Depends on the decks bringing it in. Against decks you want to kill ASAP taking a page from burn and playing a copy or two of Destructive Revelry destroys something while pushing you towards a win. Where as if it's a grindy deck I'm with Flying Delver in saying Pulse is good, and playing another could be worth it. Not great with your Blood Moon plan though.
I'm also unsure if 1 Forest is enough. It probably is, and I'm aware you don't play any spells that need 2 green. But having access to a second might be worth just considering.
Also, did you miss Decay in the main? Having no removal for Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice, ect. in the main seems like it might be rough, as well as missing the maindeck enchantment hate against Boggles. It might have been fine for the metagame you saw, but do you thing it's a card you'll wish you had? I suppose it's also really hard for you to cast through moon.
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Do you still play Kalitas somewhere in your 75? If so, where?
I honestly don't know what this statement should mean. This is not constructive at all and won't help you, me or anybody else here. Don't get me wrong, I am open to any suggestions to improve the primer, and I am happy for any constructive input, but the emphasize is on constructive here.
You said boarding out IOK is wrong, can you give statements on why exactly? We need to make room for some sideboard cards, and IOK does not hit much at all from the deck. The cards which it hits basically, can be answered with KCommand on the BF. There's decisions to be made and some cards just have to be cut.
With a standard sideboard list from a standard regular Jund list, what are your suggestions to bring in then? It seems you have a pretty good impression on what you like and what you don't like in that matchup, why even asking in the first place then? Concerning NoSB and Thrun specifically, I think you might didn't understand the way the guide is set up (which I stated in the primer actually). Its not a must to bring those cards in, but its a selection of cards in order of priority, and depends on the amount of cards to be cut and on deck configuration. And if you think those cards are not worth to bring in, please state why.
So since you feel its just a copy paste from Bant Eldrazi (which it just isn't btw), a completely different matchup, this is an argument on why the suggestions are bad for this matchup? Sorry I guess I don't get this kind of logic. This is just absolutely not constructive at all and doesn't make any sense.
Up until now, you haven't made a single argument on why the suggestions are bad, the only thing you say is that the suggestions are wrong, copied and pasted or making the deck worse. So, if there is anything constructive to add to this topic, actually state it and help improve the sideboard plan for the matchup rather than just accusing everything to be wrong.
I have one in the SB but I'm considering dropping Huntmaster and going either 1x Kalitas 1x Tireless Tracker main with 1x Kalitas SB, or 2x Kalitas main and Tracker in the SB. I prefer Kalitas over Huntmaster personally but I was trying out the Huntmasters main for awhile and now I'm moving back to Kalitas.
Not really. I get it. Inquisition of Kozilek can hit Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer and Eldrazi Skyspawner. Guess what? No one cares. Those aren't the power cards Jund gives a crap about in the match, and let's not forget Tarmogoyf is bigger than most of them and Lightning Bolt does wonders on this part of the crew.
So you're not concerned that Eldrazi Displacer + Drowner of Hope is an issue? Because that looks like a lot of board control to me. No Eldrazi Scions means they have to turn lands sideways. If we can't even force them to do that, you're just hosed. It also has a nice side effect of making Lightning Bolt useful against Thought-Knot Seer on its own.
Like what?
Why ask? You seem to know everything.
Honestly, the Bant Eldrazi matchup isn't that tough to me. Everyone who's still freaking out about this match is probably playing it wrong. I will say it's close to a 50/50 match though so you can't play "loose" against it if you hope to win, and they do have the advantage in better and powerful creatures. However, everything I've seen in the guide concerning this match is fine. If you want to criticize, bring something to table. I mean you don't even mention why you think boarding out Inquisition is wrong or why the sideboard guide isn't correct. Is there something new in Bant Eldrazi that's making waves? Are there suddenly more/better/different interactions that are suddenly less obscure? Do you have some insight on how the deck may have re-formed? Give FlyingDelver (and the rest of us) something because he's not going to erase all of his work and type in "Because Feinunze said so."
I tried him in the past, over 1 Huntmaster. My experience is that he is not suitable for the mainboard, in an open meta at least. Not a fast enough clock against some of the big mana/ combo decks. A poor (and overcosted) blocker against aggressive decks. Huntmaster is a bit more well rounded in my opinion. Tracker can definitely take over games but I wouldn't main board it unless you are expecting lots of midrange / control matchups
G/R Monsters
Naya Aggro
Current Modern Decks:
RUG Splinter Twin
Boros Sunforger
Commander:
Kemba, Kha Regent
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Uril, the Miststalker
When thinking about it, Olivia Voldaren is probably worth mentioning to bring in, if she is in the SB. She can fly over their creatures, take control over them or grow bigger then theirs.
Tireless Tracker is 'really' good. The fact that it is a possible card draw engine while getting bigger from us drawing the cards is just an added plus. I do think that for now at least to run 1 mainboard and see how it does, adding another one will be tough in trying to figure out what to cut out in the end.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
True. It does wreak havoc on its own, but every piece of removal we have hits it. Now, if they somehow control two of them, it's time to scoop it up and move on. I guess I shouldn't have said it like that.
Went 3-0 at a 8 man tournament, 2-0 against GrixisThing, 2-1 against GB aggro, and 2-1 against Grixis Control.
I was expecting a lot of death shadow jund so I drop bolt for push, and kalitas for huntmaster.
Heres my 75 and my results :
Lantern control 2-1
Sun and moon 2-0
Jeskai control 1-2
Bant Knightfall 2-0
ID
Top 8 Abzan 2-1
Top 4 Sun and moon 0-2
I don't miss bolt and huntmaster is so good all day long. Huntmaster plus command is just how I beat Abzan and his Gideon.
I faced a lot of Leyline of Sanctity that day and really hated that card. Is there any suggestion to deal with the Leyline of Sanctity in the side board games? Maybe drop some discards or mulligan aggressively or some enchant removal?
My Abzan opponent said that in the BGX mirror, depending on the play/draw, leave 2-3 discard spell in the deck is better than siding out all the discards. But I thought the discards are the worst topdeck in the mirror. Is there anything I am missing?
Thank you.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
4 Terminate
4 Blood Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Collective Brutality
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ancient Grudge
Interesting to completely drop bolt. For Leyline of Sanctity, you can side out a bunch of discard spells, but I would not side out all of them. We have Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it which I would suggest to run MB. I think 4 CB in the 75 is a bit too much, you can easily cut one CB from the MB to have a Pulse MB.
For Abzan, definitely cut all discard spells. Its wrong to leave a few in, you are not missing anything.
How did your manabase do with the BM maindeck?
The full set of CB is for the burn matchup, because this deck can't afford to play ooze or finks to gain life. Even though BM could shot down some burn spells such as boros charm ,atarka command and helix, but still I think CB is really good against burn. I think I will work on the MB to fit a pulse to test it, thank you for the suggestion.
Glad to hear that!
I think the manabase is fine, just have to think twice before fetching the SL or the basics. I fetch for a swamp first most of the time, the second basic would be the 2nd swamp or forest, depand on the matchup and your hand.
That is a sweet decklist. Doing something different while keeping the strongest pieces of Jund in place.
If Leyline is giving you fits you could look at siding another card to destroy enchantments. Depends on the decks bringing it in. Against decks you want to kill ASAP taking a page from burn and playing a copy or two of Destructive Revelry destroys something while pushing you towards a win. Where as if it's a grindy deck I'm with Flying Delver in saying Pulse is good, and playing another could be worth it. Not great with your Blood Moon plan though.
I'm also unsure if 1 Forest is enough. It probably is, and I'm aware you don't play any spells that need 2 green. But having access to a second might be worth just considering.
Also, did you miss Decay in the main? Having no removal for Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice, ect. in the main seems like it might be rough, as well as missing the maindeck enchantment hate against Boggles. It might have been fine for the metagame you saw, but do you thing it's a card you'll wish you had? I suppose it's also really hard for you to cast through moon.
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Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
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