Oh an btw, I did read Reids comment on cfb, aren't we maybe misunderstanding this? He said he would play a fourth manland. That could also simply mean that he would add that as a 25th land. He mentioned in the video that he likes to be on the more landed site of things a little bit more.
I think from his response this isnt really 100 % clear.
Mainly online. I'm getting closer to graduating for my masters and working on school work and job hunting.
I do recommend jund players trying my 60.
Reid suggested the 4th creatureland, so I certainly think it has merit. I played just 4x matches on mtgo, ended up winning, the value is too much.
Bbe, tracker and Bob is hilarious value in fair matchups.
My current mainboard is pretty close to your's but I'm going to give your 60 a spin on MTGO if I can make time between class work.
I like Treetop a lot individually, it's very useful and has pulled it's weight well. But I cut it when I went from 25 to 24 land. If Reid and yourself have had good luck with the 4th I'll certainly give it a try. I always just ran 3 Ravine with 24 lands traditionally.
Tracker has to be insane in grindy fair matchups. What kinds of cuts did you make to fit her in the SB? Have you missed Spellbomb?
I think 1x Kommand and 1x LtLH is a fine split to start with. There's certainly times when both cards range from amazing to meh.
Also random thought, I just can't justify some of these lists still running Dreadbore. Jace isn't the boogeyman we thought he could of been, or atleast not yet since the right shell is still a mystery.
I have no clue if the treetop is right, I didn't see it much in testing. I'm mainly saying it's worth testing since Reid himself recommended it.
My sideboard is just an experiment, I honestly am not sure how to structure it. I never played Tracker in BBE Jund before.
Spellbomb is most likely not right to cut. I just replaced it because I expect more dredge and hollow one. Please don't do the same if you actually are worried about other things.
The only absolute must in my eyes for Jund's sideboard are
2x Ancient Grudge, 2x Collective Brutality, 1x Kitchen Finks. Everything else isn't set in stone. Personally, I want to keep running 3x fulminator, but I see logic in not doing so.
Delver, I'm pretty sure Reid didn't mean to add a 25th land, as I specified about the lower curve.
I haven't remotely missed the extra 1 land in like 8 matches. Now, I'm sure I would have against my Jund mirror opponent when he stone rained me three times in a few turns.
If you guys find the Treetop getting in your way, and I notice it in my testing, I have no issue cutting it. I just wanted to share with you what Reid suggested---and since multiple players can gather information better than one!
Yeah, you're right. 2x K-Command would be better. I'm just being biased because I'm pissed I keep losing to Junk. Hopeful my two Trackers (I have some store credit I think will cover the 2nd) will help shore up the MU enough.
I think Olivia is actually decent in my local meta, but I don't think I'd ever bring her to an open field these days. And even with Olivia being good in my local meta, after having Tracker create insurmountable CA against me too many times, I think I'd rather run her than Oliva. Plus she's a better clock than Olivia for those MU's I just really have to get in there.
A SB card I'm excited about and wouldn't think I would be is Abrupt Decay. At a glance it seems lackluster, but the more I thought about what MU's I'd bring it in for, the more exciting it got. It's great against the mirror, it's an extra piece of removal against Infect and Affinity and Humans, it's obviously good against Lantern and Bogles, it's good against Storm now that they're boarding in Pyromancer Ascension, and it's decent against Mardu Pyromancer because it can hit Lili and Blood Moon as well as Pyromancer. Oh yeah, Fish too. I'm really digging it.
Piney, I've totally been wishing I could squeeze in Abrupt Decay. Or maybe a pulse, if gurgmags and smashers creep up in numbers.
I'm not sure what my SB would look like in an open field
Matchups: R1, Storm (1-2)
Game 1 on the draw, mulled to 5 after a 6 land, 1 spell opener and then mulled away a 4 spell, 2 land opener where I had no access to black mana. Was not able to put a reasonable clock onto the battlefield and my opponent went off with the gifts package.
Game 2, get a snap keep 7, of discard into goyf, LOTV and then a BBE cascading into another goyf. Opponent couldn't deal with pressure. (OUT: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 K-Command, 1 LTLH, 1x Bloodstained Mire; IN: 1x Nihil Spellbomb, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Collective Brutality)
Game 3, on the draw, game ends up being surprisingly long (after the game, my opponent showed me his list with a total of 4 empty the warrens in his 75) He's able to continue chump blocking and with pyromancer's ascension grinds me out with chump blocking tokens until he's able to go off.
R2, Goblins (2-0)
I remove his creatures both games and he can't fight through my scoozes/goyfs. (OUT: 1x Bloodstained Mire, 2x LOTV, 2x Thoughtseize,1x Dark Confidant,1x Kolaghan's Command IN: 2x Anger of the Gods, 1x Grim Lavamancer, 2x Kitchen Finks, 2x Collective Brutality)
R3, Jund Mirror (2-1)
After the match, opponent shows me a list that seemed a lot closer to some of the lists created after the BBE unban having only 1x Fatal push, 4x Bolt, 5 Manlands and 2x K-Command MB.
Game 1: We trade resources and I'm able to stick a LotV in the end and out grind him.
Game 2: (OUT: 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Maelstrom Pulse, 1x Lightning Bolt, IN: 2x Kitchen Finks, 1x Tireless Tracker, 1x Scavenging Ooze)
I have to mulligan (no lands in first 7) down to 6: 3 land hander, 2 dark confidants and a Lotv. Op discards one of my Dark Confidants, then sticks his own. I play my other confidant after and he is able to remove it and inquisition away my LotV. Drowned under card advantage and beats of BBE, we go to a game 3.
Game 3:
The difference between my opponent having only 1 push and me having access to 3 really shines through in this game. After trading resources, I'm able to stick a scavenging ooze and remove my opponent's. As expected, grind-heavy game where I'm eventually able to win with a 11/11 scooze. Being able to eat kitchen finks with persist on the stack was extremely helpful. Might even be a reason to cut down to 1x Finks if scooze continues to be a 3 of in our 75.
Game 4: Mono Blue Tron (0-2)
Both games opponent resolves a Wurmcoil Engine (Plays 2 in the second game.) Disruption and clock was not enough to rush opponent down.
Second game: (OUT: 3x Fatal Push, 2x Abrupt Decay, 2x Scooze, 1x LTLH. IN: 3x Fulminator Mage, 1x Tireless Tracker, 2x Collective Brutality, 2x Ancient Grudge)
Changes I'm considering to my list: -1x Anger of the Gods, there are some CoCo decks still in my meta but overall I think 2 is probably too much and double red can be hard to hit. +1x graveyard hate, either 1x Cage or another nihil spellbomb. -1x Kitchen Finks, +1 either Tireless Tracker or a 4 drop like Huntmaster of the Fells/Kalitas. Possibly finding a way to fit in a duress in SB too.
Still extremely satisfied with Jund. There were a good number of lines I could have played tighter today. Especially with the storm matchup, which we're supposed to be favored in.
Delver, I'm pretty sure Reid didn't mean to add a 25th land, as I specified about the lower curve.
I haven't remotely missed the extra 1 land in like 8 matches. Now, I'm sure I would have against my Jund mirror opponent when he stone rained me three times in a few turns.
If you guys find the Treetop getting in your way, and I notice it in my testing, I have no issue cutting it. I just wanted to share with you what Reid suggested---and since multiple players can gather information better than one!
Alright then, I will give it a shot and report back when I have results. What I did notice is that our versions has a harder time against a clunkier 25 land version for obvious reasons. A fourth manland could help in that case.
And thats also the reason I might want to cut the third Fulminator for a Hazoret. She is just such an amazing bomb for the mirror. Hazoret also can theoretically serve a little bit against Tron, which would make the cut not completely bad. All in all though, I am anyway sure that our best chances against Tron is just racing them with Goyfs/BBE and discard which often does not even include Fulminator.
I know that a wanted strategy against Tron is to keep recuring Fulminators and destroy their lands. But the problem is that this is such a big investment of mana and tempo, that the setback of a land is almost not worth it. I think I would rather get a clock going.
i have a general question because i was curious about something
every time i check in to see what you guys are talking about, you are engrossed in this never ending process of tuning. making 1 or 2 card changes in your list, maybe tweak the mana base a little bit. or you discuss various lists that show up online critiquing card choices and whether or not you agree with them.
so i guess my question is this: what do you guys think the theoretical metagame looks like? making card choices in a vacuum seems like a dubious approach. so what are the decks you are trying to be good against, or if not outright good then less bad against?
im interested in a different perspective on what the format looks like.
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Yeah, like I said, I have no clue what the right answer for K-Command Last Hope is. I don't know if it's better to have 2x K Command and 1x Hope in the side or what. If Hope isn't in my MB she takes up a SB slot, though. I think realistically if I felt obligated to play 2x K Command, my SB would look like
A little tempted to cut 1x Kitchen Finks for Tireless Tracker, after how well it performed. I think I need more testing against burn in a scenario where I only play 1x Finks 2x CB.
i have a general question because i was curious about something
every time i check in to see what you guys are talking about, you are engrossed in this never ending process of tuning. making 1 or 2 card changes in your list, maybe tweak the mana base a little bit. or you discuss various lists that show up online critiquing card choices and whether or not you agree with them.
so i guess my question is this: what do you guys think the theoretical metagame looks like? making card choices in a vacuum seems like a dubious approach. so what are the decks you are trying to be good against, or if not outright good then less bad against?
im interested in a different perspective on what the format looks like.
I like that we tune and critique lists, it's refreshing. There's too many threads on here or Facebook and Reddit where people just discuss super, janky cards to fit in.
Theoritical meta-gaming? Hmmm. Well, sometimes it's less about that and more about "what are you prepared to just lose to?" I accept to losing to anything like Living End, Titanshift.
Theoritically, there's a lot of Jund mirrors to expect, burn (because it's just always popular, despite positioning), Humans. Hmmm, Tron is always a reality, the matchup no longer feels hopeless, though. I think a lot of us are still trying to figure out how to approach Hollow One. RG Eldrazi is also pretty rough
In an open, unexpected field, it's more about what you accept losing to, and creating a sideboard or mainboard from there.
Regarding Fulminator Mage I agree it's not the best against Tron. 3 mana to keep them off Tron is a lot and they are consistent enough at assembling tron that they will very likely have it again the next turn. Slowing them down for a turn probably won't be enough most of the time anyway. Fulminator Mage is good against Tron if you pair him with Surgical Extraction otherwise they will have tron sooner or later.
However, the thing is that I like Fulminator Mage against UWx control too but maybe control isn't enough played at the moment to justify playing Fulminator Mage but I'm not sure about control numbers.
When I look at the list of Joel Larsson or Christian Calcano, they both play 4 Fulminator Mage and 2 Surgical Extraction in their SB.
Surgical Extraction is pretty well positioned in this moment when you see combo decks such as KCI or Storm, or big mana decks such as Tron or Scapeshift, which are well positioned against Jund.
I expect the come back of Living End too, the deck is strong against Jund and Surgical is a great answer to it.
Here is the list I've tested with my team mates for the last week :
The match up against mono-G Tron is balance post-side.
Against Burn, Pulse of Murasa takes the place of an usual second Kitchen Finks cause of the instant speed.
The fact that Field of Ruins is played a lot is an other reason to play Pulse of Murasa, to bring back a land for having your missing colour is cool (or to bring back a BBE at instant speed, just like K. Command).
This is really interesting as I went 4-1-0 yesterday at my FNM with a very similar deck. I know this is might be a controversial list, but it is based on the amount of Scapeshift and Junk that sees play around here and the ocasional tron.
Now I know this is a very sub-optimal list, but sideboarding felt much better than before. I liked maindeck blood moon as I don't really like Fulminator Mage, but maybe maelstrom pulse could belong to the side?
Jund is a very customizable deck and I personally try to not be picky about 1-2 cards from lists. I think it doesnt make sense.
A lot of card decisions are for personal meta purposes and I always try to argument in context to different metas.
In that way you are right that it seems a bit much regarding that topic.
There ara a few things which I personally consider to be wrong deckbuilding though and I try to point those things out. A good example would be the inclusion of Blooming Marsh. I think its not a good idea to play this card beyond 4 cliffs, regardless of metas.
I like that we tune and critique lists, it's refreshing. There's too many threads on here or Facebook and Reddit where people just discuss super, janky cards to fit in.
Theoritical meta-gaming? Hmmm. Well, sometimes it's less about that and more about "what are you prepared to just lose to?" I accept to losing to anything like Living End, Titanshift.
Theoritically, there's a lot of Jund mirrors to expect, burn (because it's just always popular, despite positioning), Humans. Hmmm, Tron is always a reality, the matchup no longer feels hopeless, though. I think a lot of us are still trying to figure out how to approach Hollow One. RG Eldrazi is also pretty rough
In an open, unexpected field, it's more about what you accept losing to, and creating a sideboard or mainboard from there.
You jelly of our community, Tronix?
hah. not really. i think its cool that you guys are engaged, but tbh outside of figuring out your curve and the amount of various types of effects (discard, removal, creatures, etc) you need to reliably draw it at various points in the game i think you guys place a little too much emphasis on small number changes. especially when drawing conclusions from so little actual data.
that aside though, jund is predictably popular now and on an upswing. ive definitely already seen its effects in my local meta. so its nice to glean some insight into what the deck with a target on its back is preparing for. especially when deciding if i want to move my jeskai list in one way or another.
you know what deck i dont want to be playing when jund is popular? jund. the mirror blows. i have 2 friends who are jund players, and they were so happy when BBE was unbanned. lets just say their enthusiasm has dimmed after continuously playing the "lets see who topdecks more BBEs" game.
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i have a general question because i was curious about something
every time i check in to see what you guys are talking about, you are engrossed in this never ending process of tuning. making 1 or 2 card changes in your list, maybe tweak the mana base a little bit. or you discuss various lists that show up online critiquing card choices and whether or not you agree with them.
so i guess my question is this: what do you guys think the theoretical metagame looks like? making card choices in a vacuum seems like a dubious approach. so what are the decks you are trying to be good against, or if not outright good then less bad against?
im interested in a different perspective on what the format looks like.
lol, nice i am not the only one seeing this. I dont play jund, i only read for knowing my opponents and each time i come in, it is the same talkings without any change
Sorry guys, i will not attack you and normaly i dont wrote here because i dont own jund, but i read all Decks in mtg salvation and no deck just talk as an example several pages if 24 or 25 lands. Maybe it can help you reading an oppinion From outside? I learn a lot reading other topics, but reading Here doesnt help me in any way. You talk to much about tuning 0,02% with lands and to less about playstyles and Tipps against several other opponents
You talk to much about tuning 0,02% with lands and to less about playstyles and Tipps against several other opponents
The thing is, the primer already covers the basics incredibly well. It goes over card choices, different flavors of building the deck, matchups, sideboarding, and even has links to several other great articles that are relevant to Jund. The current state of the primer is the sum total of everything we could offer to new Jund players or existing players looking to get more insight into how the deck works. And while spending 5 pages debating 24 vs 25 lands sounds silly, those kinds of micro decisions matter a lot because Jund is an extremely fluid deck and you have access to a lot of very powerful cards.
Granted, discussions at that granularity aren't super helpful for newer players, but any time someone asks about matchups or sideboarding you have at least 2-3 people offering opinions and advice.
Sorry guys, i will not attack you and normaly i dont wrote here because i dont own jund, but i read all Decks in mtg salvation and no deck just talk as an example several pages if 24 or 25 lands. Maybe it can help you reading an oppinion From outside? I learn a lot reading other topics, but reading Here doesnt help me in any way. You talk to much about tuning 0,02% with lands and to less about playstyles and Tipps against several other opponents
A lot of the regulars here already have talked to death about matchups, tips, etc. The deck became revamped and restructured after the recent unbanning, so it makes sense to figure out where the deck should be before focusing on other things
If we did that, we'd all be copying and pasting tournament lists and complaining that it feels clunky.
I think a lot of us are starting to finally get the wrinkles out, as there were fundamental deck building issues with the new lists once BBE was unbanned.
We read articles and opinions and often share and link it here, so I'm not understanding what you're trying to say or what your point is?
Playstyles? There's no play style, it's literally a deck of good stuff, you read up on the meta, you chose the best card to discard, you play your creatures and hold up removal while seeing the correct, optimal line. There's no "play style in Jund".
You can check out reddit or Facebook on Jund, it's a hot mess. It's either people who fundamentally play some really odd and bad cards/numbers in their decks, give out horrible advice, or make awful posts like, "what about this card in jund?!"
People like Flying Delver certainly provide matchup info when people ask, and he's created a great primer about sideboard and matchups, if you took the time to look.
We had a discussion about the mirror and the theory on that, if you look further. It was actually insightful and helped me in the mirror at my FNM that following week.
By all means, enjoy your main community or thread that you frequent, but it's a little rude to come in here and say this when you don't play the deck or have any interest to, it's obviously not conducive to what you're looking for. We are not doing it for YOUR benefit, we are doing it for OURS. Right now, it seems the priority is trying to shake out the last bit of deck building structure in the deck, which is definitely starting to lead to a conclusion.
i have a general question because i was curious about something
every time i check in to see what you guys are talking about, you are engrossed in this never ending process of tuning. making 1 or 2 card changes in your list, maybe tweak the mana base a little bit. or you discuss various lists that show up online critiquing card choices and whether or not you agree with them.
so i guess my question is this: what do you guys think the theoretical metagame looks like? making card choices in a vacuum seems like a dubious approach. so what are the decks you are trying to be good against, or if not outright good then less bad against?
im interested in a different perspective on what the format looks like.
Maybe we do but most of the active posters in this forum are well-versed with playing Jund against many different opponents. To me, this is one of the best forums that are focused on a particular deck. The primer is always up to date, the active posters generally stay up to date on their own ways, and we're not that bad about coming up with ideas fo r problems when they arise. We rarely need to spell everything out in analytical way. Most of our questions rarely revolve around analytics, which is why the conversation about the number of lands has been such a bit topic.
Even so, based on what I've seen in the Jeskai forum, seems a bit hypocritical to come here with that sort of talk.
Reid needed that Lavaman or Anger real bad. He had two terminates, but those Mantises and Phantasmals were a real PITA. Rosum played to his outs and drew really well though - that turn when he had only a Phantasmal Image left in hand, he untaps and puts vial to 3, proceeds to rip Mantis off the top, and instantly goes in for 6.
I agree. Reid's hands were kinda high on 3 drops, no? Rossum played well and sequenced very well, credit is due.
I just think 1 drops would have been good. Reid leaning on a sideboard terminate is rough. That terminate would have been a lavamancer, which would have taken care of everything outside of the original mantis.
Humans adapted pretty well to the unbans, people were yelling that the deck would die. It looks like it's going to be a modern pillar, humans are printed all the time.
What are your sideboard plans against humans? Do we shave some lotv on the play or side? Taking out all discard has to be wrong, right?
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I think from his response this isnt really 100 % clear.
I have no clue if the treetop is right, I didn't see it much in testing. I'm mainly saying it's worth testing since Reid himself recommended it.
My sideboard is just an experiment, I honestly am not sure how to structure it. I never played Tracker in BBE Jund before.
Spellbomb is most likely not right to cut. I just replaced it because I expect more dredge and hollow one. Please don't do the same if you actually are worried about other things.
The only absolute must in my eyes for Jund's sideboard are
2x Ancient Grudge, 2x Collective Brutality, 1x Kitchen Finks. Everything else isn't set in stone. Personally, I want to keep running 3x fulminator, but I see logic in not doing so.
Delver, I'm pretty sure Reid didn't mean to add a 25th land, as I specified about the lower curve.
I haven't remotely missed the extra 1 land in like 8 matches. Now, I'm sure I would have against my Jund mirror opponent when he stone rained me three times in a few turns.
If you guys find the Treetop getting in your way, and I notice it in my testing, I have no issue cutting it. I just wanted to share with you what Reid suggested---and since multiple players can gather information better than one!
Piney, I've totally been wishing I could squeeze in Abrupt Decay. Or maybe a pulse, if gurgmags and smashers creep up in numbers.
I'm not sure what my SB would look like in an open field
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Instant 9
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
Land 25
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorcery 7
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
Matchups:
R1, Storm (1-2)
Game 1 on the draw, mulled to 5 after a 6 land, 1 spell opener and then mulled away a 4 spell, 2 land opener where I had no access to black mana. Was not able to put a reasonable clock onto the battlefield and my opponent went off with the gifts package.
Game 2, get a snap keep 7, of discard into goyf, LOTV and then a BBE cascading into another goyf. Opponent couldn't deal with pressure. (OUT: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 K-Command, 1 LTLH, 1x Bloodstained Mire; IN: 1x Nihil Spellbomb, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Collective Brutality)
Game 3, on the draw, game ends up being surprisingly long (after the game, my opponent showed me his list with a total of 4 empty the warrens in his 75) He's able to continue chump blocking and with pyromancer's ascension grinds me out with chump blocking tokens until he's able to go off.
R2, Goblins (2-0)
I remove his creatures both games and he can't fight through my scoozes/goyfs. (OUT: 1x Bloodstained Mire, 2x LOTV, 2x Thoughtseize,1x Dark Confidant,1x Kolaghan's Command IN: 2x Anger of the Gods, 1x Grim Lavamancer, 2x Kitchen Finks, 2x Collective Brutality)
R3, Jund Mirror (2-1)
After the match, opponent shows me a list that seemed a lot closer to some of the lists created after the BBE unban having only 1x Fatal push, 4x Bolt, 5 Manlands and 2x K-Command MB.
Game 1: We trade resources and I'm able to stick a LotV in the end and out grind him.
Game 2: (OUT: 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Maelstrom Pulse, 1x Lightning Bolt, IN: 2x Kitchen Finks, 1x Tireless Tracker, 1x Scavenging Ooze)
I have to mulligan (no lands in first 7) down to 6: 3 land hander, 2 dark confidants and a Lotv. Op discards one of my Dark Confidants, then sticks his own. I play my other confidant after and he is able to remove it and inquisition away my LotV. Drowned under card advantage and beats of BBE, we go to a game 3.
Game 3:
The difference between my opponent having only 1 push and me having access to 3 really shines through in this game. After trading resources, I'm able to stick a scavenging ooze and remove my opponent's. As expected, grind-heavy game where I'm eventually able to win with a 11/11 scooze. Being able to eat kitchen finks with persist on the stack was extremely helpful. Might even be a reason to cut down to 1x Finks if scooze continues to be a 3 of in our 75.
Game 4: Mono Blue Tron (0-2)
Both games opponent resolves a Wurmcoil Engine (Plays 2 in the second game.) Disruption and clock was not enough to rush opponent down.
Second game: (OUT: 3x Fatal Push, 2x Abrupt Decay, 2x Scooze, 1x LTLH. IN: 3x Fulminator Mage, 1x Tireless Tracker, 2x Collective Brutality, 2x Ancient Grudge)
Changes I'm considering to my list: -1x Anger of the Gods, there are some CoCo decks still in my meta but overall I think 2 is probably too much and double red can be hard to hit. +1x graveyard hate, either 1x Cage or another nihil spellbomb. -1x Kitchen Finks, +1 either Tireless Tracker or a 4 drop like Huntmaster of the Fells/Kalitas. Possibly finding a way to fit in a duress in SB too.
Still extremely satisfied with Jund. There were a good number of lines I could have played tighter today. Especially with the storm matchup, which we're supposed to be favored in.
Alright then, I will give it a shot and report back when I have results. What I did notice is that our versions has a harder time against a clunkier 25 land version for obvious reasons. A fourth manland could help in that case.
And thats also the reason I might want to cut the third Fulminator for a Hazoret. She is just such an amazing bomb for the mirror. Hazoret also can theoretically serve a little bit against Tron, which would make the cut not completely bad. All in all though, I am anyway sure that our best chances against Tron is just racing them with Goyfs/BBE and discard which often does not even include Fulminator.
I know that a wanted strategy against Tron is to keep recuring Fulminators and destroy their lands. But the problem is that this is such a big investment of mana and tempo, that the setback of a land is almost not worth it. I think I would rather get a clock going.
i have a general question because i was curious about something
every time i check in to see what you guys are talking about, you are engrossed in this never ending process of tuning. making 1 or 2 card changes in your list, maybe tweak the mana base a little bit. or you discuss various lists that show up online critiquing card choices and whether or not you agree with them.
so i guess my question is this: what do you guys think the theoretical metagame looks like? making card choices in a vacuum seems like a dubious approach. so what are the decks you are trying to be good against, or if not outright good then less bad against?
im interested in a different perspective on what the format looks like.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)2x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Collective Brutality
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hazoret, the Fervent
A little tempted to cut 1x Kitchen Finks for Tireless Tracker, after how well it performed. I think I need more testing against burn in a scenario where I only play 1x Finks 2x CB.
I like that we tune and critique lists, it's refreshing. There's too many threads on here or Facebook and Reddit where people just discuss super, janky cards to fit in.
Theoritical meta-gaming? Hmmm. Well, sometimes it's less about that and more about "what are you prepared to just lose to?" I accept to losing to anything like Living End, Titanshift.
Theoritically, there's a lot of Jund mirrors to expect, burn (because it's just always popular, despite positioning), Humans. Hmmm, Tron is always a reality, the matchup no longer feels hopeless, though. I think a lot of us are still trying to figure out how to approach Hollow One. RG Eldrazi is also pretty rough
In an open, unexpected field, it's more about what you accept losing to, and creating a sideboard or mainboard from there.
You jelly of our community, Tronix?
When I look at the list of Joel Larsson or Christian Calcano, they both play 4 Fulminator Mage and 2 Surgical Extraction in their SB.
Surgical Extraction is pretty well positioned in this moment when you see combo decks such as KCI or Storm, or big mana decks such as Tron or Scapeshift, which are well positioned against Jund.
I expect the come back of Living End too, the deck is strong against Jund and Surgical is a great answer to it.
Here is the list I've tested with my team mates for the last week :
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
The match up against mono-G Tron is balance post-side.
Against Burn, Pulse of Murasa takes the place of an usual second Kitchen Finks cause of the instant speed.
The fact that Field of Ruins is played a lot is an other reason to play Pulse of Murasa, to bring back a land for having your missing colour is cool (or to bring back a BBE at instant speed, just like K. Command).
Gus
This is really interesting as I went 4-1-0 yesterday at my FNM with a very similar deck. I know this is might be a controversial list, but it is based on the amount of Scapeshift and Junk that sees play around here and the ocasional tron.
3 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments
2 Blood Moon
Instants
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
Now I know this is a very sub-optimal list, but sideboarding felt much better than before. I liked maindeck blood moon as I don't really like Fulminator Mage, but maybe maelstrom pulse could belong to the side?
A lot of card decisions are for personal meta purposes and I always try to argument in context to different metas.
In that way you are right that it seems a bit much regarding that topic.
There ara a few things which I personally consider to be wrong deckbuilding though and I try to point those things out. A good example would be the inclusion of Blooming Marsh. I think its not a good idea to play this card beyond 4 cliffs, regardless of metas.
hah. not really. i think its cool that you guys are engaged, but tbh outside of figuring out your curve and the amount of various types of effects (discard, removal, creatures, etc) you need to reliably draw it at various points in the game i think you guys place a little too much emphasis on small number changes. especially when drawing conclusions from so little actual data.
that aside though, jund is predictably popular now and on an upswing. ive definitely already seen its effects in my local meta. so its nice to glean some insight into what the deck with a target on its back is preparing for. especially when deciding if i want to move my jeskai list in one way or another.
you know what deck i dont want to be playing when jund is popular? jund. the mirror blows. i have 2 friends who are jund players, and they were so happy when BBE was unbanned. lets just say their enthusiasm has dimmed after continuously playing the "lets see who topdecks more BBEs" game.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The thing is, the primer already covers the basics incredibly well. It goes over card choices, different flavors of building the deck, matchups, sideboarding, and even has links to several other great articles that are relevant to Jund. The current state of the primer is the sum total of everything we could offer to new Jund players or existing players looking to get more insight into how the deck works. And while spending 5 pages debating 24 vs 25 lands sounds silly, those kinds of micro decisions matter a lot because Jund is an extremely fluid deck and you have access to a lot of very powerful cards.
Granted, discussions at that granularity aren't super helpful for newer players, but any time someone asks about matchups or sideboarding you have at least 2-3 people offering opinions and advice.
A lot of the regulars here already have talked to death about matchups, tips, etc. The deck became revamped and restructured after the recent unbanning, so it makes sense to figure out where the deck should be before focusing on other things
If we did that, we'd all be copying and pasting tournament lists and complaining that it feels clunky.
I think a lot of us are starting to finally get the wrinkles out, as there were fundamental deck building issues with the new lists once BBE was unbanned.
We read articles and opinions and often share and link it here, so I'm not understanding what you're trying to say or what your point is?
Playstyles? There's no play style, it's literally a deck of good stuff, you read up on the meta, you chose the best card to discard, you play your creatures and hold up removal while seeing the correct, optimal line. There's no "play style in Jund".
You can check out reddit or Facebook on Jund, it's a hot mess. It's either people who fundamentally play some really odd and bad cards/numbers in their decks, give out horrible advice, or make awful posts like, "what about this card in jund?!"
People like Flying Delver certainly provide matchup info when people ask, and he's created a great primer about sideboard and matchups, if you took the time to look.
We had a discussion about the mirror and the theory on that, if you look further. It was actually insightful and helped me in the mirror at my FNM that following week.
By all means, enjoy your main community or thread that you frequent, but it's a little rude to come in here and say this when you don't play the deck or have any interest to, it's obviously not conducive to what you're looking for. We are not doing it for YOUR benefit, we are doing it for OURS. Right now, it seems the priority is trying to shake out the last bit of deck building structure in the deck, which is definitely starting to lead to a conclusion.
Maybe we do but most of the active posters in this forum are well-versed with playing Jund against many different opponents. To me, this is one of the best forums that are focused on a particular deck. The primer is always up to date, the active posters generally stay up to date on their own ways, and we're not that bad about coming up with ideas fo r problems when they arise. We rarely need to spell everything out in analytical way. Most of our questions rarely revolve around analytics, which is why the conversation about the number of lands has been such a bit topic.
Even so, based on what I've seen in the Jeskai forum, seems a bit hypocritical to come here with that sort of talk.
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
I just think 1 drops would have been good. Reid leaning on a sideboard terminate is rough. That terminate would have been a lavamancer, which would have taken care of everything outside of the original mantis.
Humans adapted pretty well to the unbans, people were yelling that the deck would die. It looks like it's going to be a modern pillar, humans are printed all the time.
What are your sideboard plans against humans? Do we shave some lotv on the play or side? Taking out all discard has to be wrong, right?