Are you sold on that second basic Forest? How are you liking it?
I am definitely more sold on it compared to a mountain. I don't think I would want a mountain over it, its such an incredibly bad lands to have in your opener. And our manabase is already in a tough sopt concerning openers sometimes. Forest is also quite bad, but not that bad at least. FoR is not what I saw much of lately, but BM continues to be a thing. Therefore I am sticking with 2 Forests right now.
On Golgari Charm vs. Maelstrom Pulse:
Charm has been an allstar for me. Right before I typed out this response I blew out a Mardu Pyromancer player on Cockatrice two games in a row (after losing the first) by completely wiping his board with a Charm. I just really like it. It has a lot of applications. With that said, your list seems pretty soft to Elspeth's and their kin. Having two Pulses in the 75 is like a security blanket for me.
I do like Charm also. I am in general very hesitant about playing charms, since I do think the only thing they do is providing flexibility, but executing the actual stuff very poorly. Golgari Charm is the best Charm we have and the only one I would consider really. And right now it solves the BM/Sanctity/Bogles matchup while still being applicable against Affinity/Small creature decks.
How has the Engineered Explosives been working out for you? I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my two... that card seems really good right now and I don't have any. I probably should have bought one instead of the masterpiece Hazoret.
Its great. I have a decent amount of bogles in my meta right now, and I haven't lost a match to it because of the access to EE.
I haven’t played much against the humans deck. But I would guess that we side out two Lotv and TSes and bring in sweepers, spot removal and potentially more scoozes if they are in our board. Early confidant seems fine if the board is clear or you need more removal.
My plan is based on Reid Duke's statement about the matchup: "Postboard I want access to every card in my 75 that kills a creature".
Oddly we have the same list other then i have 4 bolts 2 push. How are you liking the Twilight mire? i replaced my mountain with a twilight mire and have yet to ever use it so was wondering about your opinion.
Twilight Mire is probably up in the top 3 of my favourite lands in Jund as a whole. I love as it kinda adds 1,5 to the black sources, which makes, when running 18 black sources, double black on turn 3 even more likely. Also getting access to double green pretty easily is very convenient with Ooze and Finks. The latter sees more play lately obviously.
Also, Flyer, this is basically Joesesph Hererra's deck from the Classic, no? I like that you chose to shave that dreadbore for the fatal push. If you shaved 1x K Command for a 2nd Decay this would basically be his list.
How would you feel about making one of those spell-bombs into a scavenging ooze?
Are you down on 1x Ancient Grudge because Affinity is down or your meta?
I wonder if a sideboard should look like this in an open meta
Jadine, now that I think of it, played that Scooze in the side as her third sideboard graveyard hate. This would help shore up some of the issues of not wanting to lose Scooze's power for matchups he's good, plus it'll see more play in general than just against graveyard decks.
I'd really like to somehow squeeze in a Hazoret, but I dunno.
Its still based on EctoMarks approach, I only made the following changes maindeck: -1 Bolt, +1 Push, -1 Pulse, +1 Decay. Its kinda a different direction where I am coming from, but given that with my changes I am also in the realm of Hererra's list it makes me feel I am in between those 2 approaches.
I would love a third Ooze, haven't found the space for it yet. However, personally I would probably shave the Cage for it, as Hollow One seems to be absent in my meta. In an open meta cutting Spellbomb for the third Ooze is a consideration though.
On Grudge, indeed Affinity is very low at my local meta. But I even think that for an open meta you can get away with 1 copy only, for Affinity's sake at least. I basically replaced the second one with the Golgari Charm, which is still okay against Affinity. Matchups which get worse would be Lantern and this janky Kark Clan Ironworks deck. Don't know if this is relevant, but it had a showing in the last GP, so you might expect it in the upcoming events.
That sideboard looks solid to me. Personally I am not sure about the Ooze and the second Grudge like mentioned. But I think its fine.
I think I'm going to begin testing a list with no Fulminator in the side. I've look over it all and it seems the only matchups where Fulminator pulls actual work compared to other options are Tron, Valakut, and 5c Death Shadow. The first two are already our worst matchups, and the latter I feel like we can sideboard in better options.
Just seems like an unnecessary concession of 3/4 sideboard slots to boost maybe 5% points in our worst matchups. The GP 2nd place list has help reafirm this idea to me.
Fulminator pulls its weight in UWx Control type of matchups as well. Given that Jace is basically absent atm, this factor might not be that relevant though.
Are you sold on that second basic Forest? How are you liking it?
I am definitely more sold on it compared to a mountain. I don't think I would want a mountain over it, its such an incredibly bad lands to have in your opener. And our manabase is already in a tough sopt concerning openers sometimes. Forest is also quite bad, but not that bad at least. FoR is not what I saw much of lately, but BM continues to be a thing. Therefore I am sticking with 2 Forests right now.
On Golgari Charm vs. Maelstrom Pulse:
Charm has been an allstar for me. Right before I typed out this response I blew out a Mardu Pyromancer player on Cockatrice two games in a row (after losing the first) by completely wiping his board with a Charm. I just really like it. It has a lot of applications. With that said, your list seems pretty soft to Elspeth's and their kin. Having two Pulses in the 75 is like a security blanket for me.
I do like Charm also. I am in general very hesitant about playing charms, since I do think the only thing they do is providing flexibility, but executing the actual stuff very poorly. Golgari Charm is the best Charm we have and the only one I would consider really. And right now it solves the BM/Sanctity/Bogles matchup while still being applicable against Affinity/Small creature decks.
How has the Engineered Explosives been working out for you? I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my two... that card seems really good right now and I don't have any. I probably should have bought one instead of the masterpiece Hazoret.
Its great. I have a decent amount of bogles in my meta right now, and I haven't lost a match to it because of the access to EE.
I haven’t played much against the humans deck. But I would guess that we side out two Lotv and TSes and bring in sweepers, spot removal and potentially more scoozes if they are in our board. Early confidant seems fine if the board is clear or you need more removal.
My plan is based on Reid Duke's statement about the matchup: "Postboard I want access to every card in my 75 that kills a creature".
Oddly we have the same list other then i have 4 bolts 2 push. How are you liking the Twilight mire? i replaced my mountain with a twilight mire and have yet to ever use it so was wondering about your opinion.
Twilight Mire is probably up in the top 3 of my favourite lands in Jund as a whole. I love as it kinda adds 1,5 to the black sources, which makes, when running 18 black sources, double black on turn 3 even more likely. Also getting access to double green pretty easily is very convenient with Ooze and Finks. The latter sees more play lately obviously.
Also, Flyer, this is basically Joesesph Hererra's deck from the Classic, no? I like that you chose to shave that dreadbore for the fatal push. If you shaved 1x K Command for a 2nd Decay this would basically be his list.
How would you feel about making one of those spell-bombs into a scavenging ooze?
Are you down on 1x Ancient Grudge because Affinity is down or your meta?
I wonder if a sideboard should look like this in an open meta
Jadine, now that I think of it, played that Scooze in the side as her third sideboard graveyard hate. This would help shore up some of the issues of not wanting to lose Scooze's power for matchups he's good, plus it'll see more play in general than just against graveyard decks.
I'd really like to somehow squeeze in a Hazoret, but I dunno.
Its still based on EctoMarks approach, I only made the following changes maindeck: -1 Bolt, +1 Push, -1 Pulse, +1 Decay. Its kinda a different direction where I am coming from, but given that with my changes I am also in the realm of Hererra's list it makes me feel I am in between those 2 approaches.
I would love a third Ooze, haven't found the space for it yet. However, personally I would probably shave the Cage for it, as Hollow One seems to be absent in my meta. In an open meta cutting Spellbomb for the third Ooze is a consideration though.
On Grudge, indeed Affinity is very low at my local meta. But I even think that for an open meta you can get away with 1 copy only, for Affinity's sake at least. I basically replaced the second one with the Golgari Charm, which is still okay against Affinity. Matchups which get worse would be Lantern and this janky Kark Clan Ironworks deck. Don't know if this is relevant, but it had a showing in the last GP, so you might expect it in the upcoming events.
That sideboard looks solid to me. Personally I am not sure about the Ooze and the second Grudge like mentioned. But I think its fine.
I think I'm going to begin testing a list with no Fulminator in the side. I've look over it all and it seems the only matchups where Fulminator pulls actual work compared to other options are Tron, Valakut, and 5c Death Shadow. The first two are already our worst matchups, and the latter I feel like we can sideboard in better options.
Just seems like an unnecessary concession of 3/4 sideboard slots to boost maybe 5% points in our worst matchups. The GP 2nd place list has help reafirm this idea to me.
Fulminator pulls its weight in UWx Control type of matchups as well. Given that Jace is basically absent atm, this factor might not be that relevant though.
A fair point, but again I feel like by then we could just bring in better options. By the time they start Colonading I feel the game is either already lost or in a top deck war, wherein I'd rather hit a specific sideboard card (Thrun, Hazoret, ect.) Instead of a Fulminator.
Again, I could be wrong in this line of thinking, but I definitely think it's worth exploring
Like I said, since Control is on decline, I am not completely against cutting Fulminator. I personally still like the card as of now. But I can see where you are coming from. If Control is not your debate, then I don't think its all that wrong.
- 24 vs 25 lands will probably end up in personal preference and individual lists: I see an average of 24.5 lands in Jund decks currently and it mainly depends on how low your manacurve is.
- I don't like the Basic Mountain. At all. It is a horrible card in the opener, a bad basic land against Blood Moon decks and matters only against decks which play a playset of Field of Ruin.
- Red is for a reason our tertiary color. It is the color your opponents will try to cut you off with FoR and Spreading Seas most often and will also cost you the most when fetching it (without Basic Mountain), therefore I like the approach I currently see by some pros (including Jadine Klomparens): Cut 1 Kolaghan's Command, probably also make an even 3/3 split of Bolt/Push. I don't like to shave Terminate though, as I believe it is a too important card against Eldrazi decks and other high cmc creature-based matchups like Hollow One, DS, etc. I want my Jund deck to be BG with the added benefit of the best red spells available (that's why I also dislike double red spells like Anger of the Gods, they are very often extremely hard to cast). I also believe Dreadbore is not good enough.
- 3 Oozes is where I currently want to be. Ooze is a fantastic card in the mirror, against aggro decks and against all gy-based decks. Going down on 2 Oozes also means cutting a threat when needing a clock, something I do not like to do.
- 12 one cmc spells is probably the way to go: Playing Jund without being able to cast a spell on the first turn of the game is a big disadvantage against basically all strategies in current modern. I want a discard on turn 1 in order to protect Goyf/Bob on turn 2 against some decks, I want to be able to kill a creature on turn 1 in order to apply pressure with my own creatures against other decks. I also prefer the 4/2 split of IoK/Thoughtseize, not yet entirely sold on the Bolt/Push split but I am currently trying to play 3/3.
- BBE is a busted card of Magic. Up until the unban, Jund was a solid deck until turn 3, but other decks started to do unfair things in the midgame and Jund couldn't cope with it. BBE is amazing in mid- and lategame and makes the deck a tier 1 strategy again. The card is so strong, that trying to build the deck around her (like we tried at the beginning, and rightly so) is not worth it, as she simply performs without much help. That's why we also see her in so many decks where she is just "good", not excellent, for example RG Eldrazi or Ponza.
I am still unsure about Liliana, the Last Hope in the mainboard and the split between manlands, but there might not be the one way to do it so it is probably a meta decision whether to play The Last Hope in the mainboard or not. I like Treetop Village because of the low activation cost, the Trample ability and the solid body, but it's mana ability is quite a disadvantage in some situations.
I have a serious question I hope y'all can help me with. I'm guessing this idea is wrong because I haven't seen a single list running it, but instead of going with the 4x Iok/2x TS for the targeted discard, what about replacing the 4th IoK with a Collective Brutality?
Brutality is a good card, it really ties the deck together. I'm currently on a mix of Duress, Despise, IoK, Thoughtseize, and Brutality across 8 cards. It's not traditional but it's working well for me.
I also agree that BBE is super strong on her own. Even if you don't have a decent cascade target, you are still getting rid of a bad topdeck. However, even though she turned out to be stronger than Jace, I don't think she's ban-worthy by any means. The meta is still diverse, and arguably even more so. We are now seeing Ponza, Tribal Zoo and RG Eldrazi variants in addition to everything else. Only stuff that really have fallen are other BGx decks such as Abzan and BG Rock, which I'm not sad to see fade. IMO Jund is a lot more fun anyway.
Also, I am still not comfortable giving up Mages in the 75, at least in my local meta. My meta has a lot of control, and it is our answer to Colonnades and flipped Azcantas. If those cards stick, it's pretty much game over. If nothing else, Mage can swing in for damage until the opponent is forced to remove it and you just blow up a land in response. I have also been tempted to try a basic mountain because of control, but it's just so bad early, and a bad topdeck.
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BGx Decks for LifeBRGDiscard, Goyf, Liliana, Elf, Jund 'em out.BRG
I don't feel as though piersons list affirmed your thought about fulminator, I think one deck out of a dozen decks that have placed is just something you cherrypicked to validate your process behind the idea
If you look in the top 32, blue didn't go away. I have found myself siding in fulminator a ton, both on mtgo and at the fnms.
I never really advocated for the mountain. I think some people in this thread and community overreacted to the superleague. Twilight mire has been fantastic.
3 raging ravine seems the right call for 24 land builds and the 3 2 split in 25 lands. 4 man lands in 24 builds seem a little greedy, we only had that happening when twin was forcing the meta to be fair.
Bbe ended up being so good we didn't need to build around her. While 4x bolts is great in theory the meta is adapting to bolt being popular, the 3 3 split seems right to me. Having more 1 cmc cards has felt right. The community was clunking the curve up.
I get nervous only having 1k command, 1x decay and 1x pulse mainboard to handle artifacts like bridge or chalice, etc. Last hope taking less space in the board would be nice to fit either a 2nd grim or hazoret.
Only stuff that really have fallen are other BGx decks such as Abzan and BG Rock, which I'm not sad to see fade. IMO Jund is a lot more fun anyway.
I think the problem with Abzan is that it's currently a weaker version of 3 different decks:
Mardu Pyromancer is a better Lingering Souls deck
Jund is a better slow Tarmogoyf deck because of the raw power level of it's cards
Traverse Shadow is a better aggressive Tarmogoyf deck
I just don't know what would make you sleeve up Abzan over one of those decks right now. I think that straight B/G is still a good option though, on the back of better resilience to Blood Moon and the strength of Field of Ruin.
I so far have felt fine with 24 lands, and it makes space for the spells other than the 12 1-drop spells, which I think is very important to not have too little 1-drop spells. The numbers for terminate, pulse, decay, kcommand can probably be tuned to your liking, but I like having access to all of these mainboard. I haven't had enough chance to work with Grim Lavamancer, but the times I have had it it's been amazing so I wanna have access to 2.
With spring break coming up I won't be able to test the list at my LGS until a week or so, but at the next opportunity this list is probably what I'm going to try.
I so far have felt fine with 24 lands, and it makes space for the spells other than the 12 1-drop spells, which I think is very important to not have too little 1-drop spells. The numbers for terminate, pulse, decay, kcommand can probably be tuned to your liking, but I like having access to all of these mainboard. I haven't had enough chance to work with Grim Lavamancer, but the times I have had it it's been amazing so I wanna have access to 2.
With spring break coming up I won't be able to test the list at my LGS until a week or so, but at the next opportunity this list is probably what I'm going to try.
Decided against cutting Fulminators, but I've gone down from 4 to 3. I've also taken suggestions and am going to roll with this for an upcoming big event:
Maindeck seems to be the closest thing to stock I can find. I think the only discrepancy is if you want to run 25 lands you cut Terminate for a 2nd Treetop Village.
The biggest silly idea is Huntmaster. I wanted to have at least 6 cards to bring in for the mirror (which I expect to see a ton of), and have fallen out of favor of bringing Fulminators in that situation. There were a couple ideas, such as Tireless Tracker and Hazoret, but those felt too narrow. Huntmaster works as a good 4-drop, but is also great against aggro and burn decks. He was my go-to 4 drop before BBE and helps solidify a lot of sideboard plans, so why not include him?
I took out a Grafdigger's cage for an Anger of the Gods. I think it helps cover the current meta while also acting as quasi-graveyard hate. The only current graveyard deck to be scared of IMO is B/R Hollow, which is already a bad matchup, and Anger already helps a bit with it.
Thrun is, and has been for a long time, a pet card of mine. I really despise counter spells. Him helping against the mirror is just gravy
I tried Delvers list with my sideboard in the practice rooms and did pretty well. It felt nice to have removal, and I certainly needed it, I played a bunch of aggro matchups.
Ended up beating
Temur midrange (destroyed him)
Burn
Some janky cheerio deck that didn't look like cheerios until game 3
BBE Zoo
Burn
I lost to some janky bad version of cheerios, he needed an exact topdeck and got it. I also didn't realize he was some bad cheerios deck until game 3, otherwise I would have been more resourceful with removal.
Have really enjoyed Scooze in the side as the 3rd piece of grave hate. The lower to the curve set up has felt nice and land hasn't been too much of an issue, although mtgo gave at times some awful openers and mulligans (like 6 lands, or 1 land).
Decided against cutting Fulminators, but I've gone down from 4 to 3. I've also taken suggestions and am going to roll with this for an upcoming big event:
Maindeck seems to be the closest thing to stock I can find. I think the only discrepancy is if you want to run 25 lands you cut Terminate for a 2nd Treetop Village.
The biggest silly idea is Huntmaster. I wanted to have at least 6 cards to bring in for the mirror (which I expect to see a ton of), and have fallen out of favor of bringing Fulminators in that situation. There were a couple ideas, such as Tireless Tracker and Hazoret, but those felt too narrow. Huntmaster works as a good 4-drop, but is also great against aggro and burn decks. He was my go-to 4 drop before BBE and helps solidify a lot of sideboard plans, so why not include him?
I took out a Grafdigger's cage for an Anger of the Gods. I think it helps cover the current meta while also acting as quasi-graveyard hate. The only current graveyard deck to be scared of IMO is B/R Hollow, which is already a bad matchup, and Anger already helps a bit with it.
Thrun is, and has been for a long time, a pet card of mine. I really despise counter spells. Him helping against the mirror is just gravy
I think going to 3x Fulminators is really reasonable, Titanshift is poorly positioned, and quite a bit of aggro is springing up which helps fight off Tron.
Also, Pierson ran zero grave hate. Honestly, while he deserved his top 8 and people don't just accidentally stumble to a top 8 in huge tournaments like that, I think he probably also hit the pairings lottery. It's better to look at all the decks that place, not just 1 or 2 lists that validate our biases.
I haven't missed Thrun. My theory is that the average blue player in modern just isn't good, because my blue matchup win percentage has really skyrocketed with the wake of the unbanning.
Have really enjoyed Scooze in the side as the 3rd piece of grave hate. The lower to the curve set up has felt nice and land hasn't been too much of an issue, although mtgo gave at times some awful openers and mulligans (like 6 lands, or 1 land).
I think I will try the third Ooze over either the Cage or the Spellbomb in the side as well, and see how it goes.
Weirdly enough, I had the same issues with the openers. Thats where I am completely confused. I kept thinking my shuffling was not the best, but on mtgo you can't argue with that. Its weird how consistantly I either have 5/6 lands or 1/2 lands in my opening hand. I really don't get why.
Decided against cutting Fulminators, but I've gone down from 4 to 3. I've also taken suggestions and am going to roll with this for an upcoming big event:
Maindeck seems to be the closest thing to stock I can find. I think the only discrepancy is if you want to run 25 lands you cut Terminate for a 2nd Treetop Village.
The biggest silly idea is Huntmaster. I wanted to have at least 6 cards to bring in for the mirror (which I expect to see a ton of), and have fallen out of favor of bringing Fulminators in that situation. There were a couple ideas, such as Tireless Tracker and Hazoret, but those felt too narrow. Huntmaster works as a good 4-drop, but is also great against aggro and burn decks. He was my go-to 4 drop before BBE and helps solidify a lot of sideboard plans, so why not include him?
I took out a Grafdigger's cage for an Anger of the Gods. I think it helps cover the current meta while also acting as quasi-graveyard hate. The only current graveyard deck to be scared of IMO is B/R Hollow, which is already a bad matchup, and Anger already helps a bit with it.
Thrun is, and has been for a long time, a pet card of mine. I really despise counter spells. Him helping against the mirror is just gravy
I think going to 3x Fulminators is really reasonable, Titanshift is poorly positioned, and quite a bit of aggro is springing up which helps fight off Tron.
Also, Pierson ran zero grave hate. Honestly, while he deserved his top 8 and people don't just accidentally stumble to a top 8 in huge tournaments like that, I think he probably also hit the pairings lottery. It's better to look at all the decks that place, not just 1 or 2 lists that validate our biases.
I haven't missed Thrun. My theory is that the average blue player in modern just isn't good, because my blue matchup win percentage has really skyrocketed with the wake of the unbanning.
I'm still gonna give it a shot with 1 Grafdigger's, 1 Anger. With the 3 Scooze in the main I think I'll do alright. Then again that's what testing is for.
I'll totally concede Thrun is a personal choice, but I really want a card for grindy matchups and don't care for Hazoret, so I'm trying it out,
I'm pretty happy with 24 lands and the lower curve(like Ecto's list). The initial BBE lists that essentially shaved discard/removal and went to 25 lands felt bad in the early turns sometimes where I really missed the extra removal or discard. We need to survive until atleast Turn 4 to have a shot at attempting to cast BBE, the lower curve sure helps get there.
I like the 3/3 split between Bolt and Push. I felt that one Push wasn't enough and went up to a second, shaving a bolt for a third is certainly not a bad idea.
I don't like zero terminate, it's such a good safety net that I think it deserves atleast one slot though I can see trimming the second.
Fulminator is good against Tron, Control, the mirror, affinity, infect, GW decks that run gavony township, BW tokens with vault, windbrisk heights, and legion’s landing, etc. I wouldn’t run less than 2 in my SB.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
@Ayiluss: I am currently playing the exact same mainboard as @lowekevin123 except for the one Treetop Village, with my sideboard being slightly different:
Here are some thoughts about the current configuration:
- 4 Manlands in a 24-lands build: This might turn out to be too greedy, but I want to experiment with it. I don't like going below 3 Ravines, not only because it is a very good manland in the lategame, but also because the colorfixing it provides is better than the one of Treetop Village. Treetop Village might end up becoming a 4th Mire or a 2nd Forest. When playing 25 lands, I would definitely play at least one Treetop Village.
- 2x Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75: This is mainly a meta choice for my local store, as there are so many matchups where she shines. Cutting one of them is totally reasonable.
- Outside the 31 core spells of the deck (The creatures, 4 LotV and the 12 one cmc spells) there are 5 cards you can include in the deck (4 if you play 25 lands). That's an incredible low number for all the Decays, K-Commands, Terminates and Pulses we would like to play and this is also the reason why there seems to be always a couple of cards too much (like you mentioned). Therefore I decided to include each one a single time. Why? Delver mentioned it some pages back if I remember correctly: Decay, Pulse, Kolaghan's Command and Terminate together form a playset of very flexible removals. I don't see them as one-offs, but rather regard them as a unity. You can of course play 2 Commands and 2 Pulses, but that would mean giving up on Terminate and Decay which I personally do not like.
Just curious what you meant by saying that we want somewhere between 15-18 1 cmc spells? Does this include the sideboard?
@Ayiluss: I am currently playing the exact same mainboard as @lowekevin123 except for the one Treetop Village, with my sideboard being slightly different:
Here are some thoughts about the current configuration:
- 4 Manlands in a 24-lands build: This might turn out to be too greedy, but I want to experiment with it. I don't like going below 3 Ravines, not only because it is a very good manland in the lategame, but also because the colorfixing it provides is better than the one of Treetop Village. Treetop Village might end up becoming a 4th Mire or a 2nd Forest. When playing 25 lands, I would definitely play at least one Treetop Village.
- 2x Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75: This is mainly a meta choice for my local store, as there are so many matchups where she shines. Cutting one of them is totally reasonable.
- Outside the 31 core spells of the deck (The creatures, 4 LotV and the 12 one cmc spells) there are 5 cards you can include in the deck (4 if you play 25 lands). That's an incredible low number for all the Decays, K-Commands, Terminates and Pulses we would like to play and this is also the reason why there seems to be always a couple of cards too much (like you mentioned). Therefore I decided to include each one a single time. Why? Delver mentioned it some pages back if I remember correctly: Decay, Pulse, Kolaghan's Command and Terminate together form a playset of very flexible removals. I don't see them as one-offs, but rather regard them as a unity. You can of course play 2 Commands and 2 Pulses, but that would mean giving up on Terminate and Decay which I personally do not like.
Just curious what you meant by saying that we want somewhere between 15-18 1 cmc spells? Does this include the sideboard?
It's so interesting to me that the main posters on the Jund thread are reaching so many similar conclusions to the 75. I was tempted to make my 2nd forest a treetop instead based off of Joel Larsens article on Channelfireball. I'd be interested to hear about your experience with that 4th manland.
I'm finding that my curve feels smoother with just 3x ETB lands as opposed to the 5x ETB lands. Treetop seems at its best when you want to insulate yourself against LOTV.
Your mainboard is basically what I'm playing except I moved the 3rd Ooze to the board for the 2nd terminate. And I'm running the forest instead of Treetop. Losing against Humans on Monday made me realize how much I noticed a lack of removal, as we were running 2x extra removals in exchange for discard.
Seeing two K-Commands early on is so ugly, and I often hate it in aggro matchups, as 3 mana for a shock isn't great. They'll often dump their hand by then or have a sandbagged land. The mainboard Last Hope could easily be another K-Command. I guess I have her as a recursion, win con and good against tiny creature decks.
You're right that the removal suite has to be looked at as a whole.
No one seems too high on the Hazoret sideboard, hm? I'm surprised to see all the EE's and Golgari charms, I've never been impressed with those cards in Jund, Junk utilizes it better. Is this a hedge at your local stores?
And yeah, Jund with all these extra 1 mana spells seem more well suited, which can definitely justify 24 lands. Our postboard gets uppe'd a lot though, is this a problem though?
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My plan is based on Reid Duke's statement about the matchup: "Postboard I want access to every card in my 75 that kills a creature".
Twilight Mire is probably up in the top 3 of my favourite lands in Jund as a whole. I love as it kinda adds 1,5 to the black sources, which makes, when running 18 black sources, double black on turn 3 even more likely. Also getting access to double green pretty easily is very convenient with Ooze and Finks. The latter sees more play lately obviously.
Its still based on EctoMarks approach, I only made the following changes maindeck: -1 Bolt, +1 Push, -1 Pulse, +1 Decay. Its kinda a different direction where I am coming from, but given that with my changes I am also in the realm of Hererra's list it makes me feel I am in between those 2 approaches.
I would love a third Ooze, haven't found the space for it yet. However, personally I would probably shave the Cage for it, as Hollow One seems to be absent in my meta. In an open meta cutting Spellbomb for the third Ooze is a consideration though.
On Grudge, indeed Affinity is very low at my local meta. But I even think that for an open meta you can get away with 1 copy only, for Affinity's sake at least. I basically replaced the second one with the Golgari Charm, which is still okay against Affinity. Matchups which get worse would be Lantern and this janky Kark Clan Ironworks deck. Don't know if this is relevant, but it had a showing in the last GP, so you might expect it in the upcoming events.
That sideboard looks solid to me. Personally I am not sure about the Ooze and the second Grudge like mentioned. But I think its fine.
Fulminator pulls its weight in UWx Control type of matchups as well. Given that Jace is basically absent atm, this factor might not be that relevant though.
A fair point, but again I feel like by then we could just bring in better options. By the time they start Colonading I feel the game is either already lost or in a top deck war, wherein I'd rather hit a specific sideboard card (Thrun, Hazoret, ect.) Instead of a Fulminator.
Again, I could be wrong in this line of thinking, but I definitely think it's worth exploring
- 24 vs 25 lands will probably end up in personal preference and individual lists: I see an average of 24.5 lands in Jund decks currently and it mainly depends on how low your manacurve is.
- I don't like the Basic Mountain. At all. It is a horrible card in the opener, a bad basic land against Blood Moon decks and matters only against decks which play a playset of Field of Ruin.
- Red is for a reason our tertiary color. It is the color your opponents will try to cut you off with FoR and Spreading Seas most often and will also cost you the most when fetching it (without Basic Mountain), therefore I like the approach I currently see by some pros (including Jadine Klomparens): Cut 1 Kolaghan's Command, probably also make an even 3/3 split of Bolt/Push. I don't like to shave Terminate though, as I believe it is a too important card against Eldrazi decks and other high cmc creature-based matchups like Hollow One, DS, etc. I want my Jund deck to be BG with the added benefit of the best red spells available (that's why I also dislike double red spells like Anger of the Gods, they are very often extremely hard to cast). I also believe Dreadbore is not good enough.
- 3 Oozes is where I currently want to be. Ooze is a fantastic card in the mirror, against aggro decks and against all gy-based decks. Going down on 2 Oozes also means cutting a threat when needing a clock, something I do not like to do.
- 12 one cmc spells is probably the way to go: Playing Jund without being able to cast a spell on the first turn of the game is a big disadvantage against basically all strategies in current modern. I want a discard on turn 1 in order to protect Goyf/Bob on turn 2 against some decks, I want to be able to kill a creature on turn 1 in order to apply pressure with my own creatures against other decks. I also prefer the 4/2 split of IoK/Thoughtseize, not yet entirely sold on the Bolt/Push split but I am currently trying to play 3/3.
- BBE is a busted card of Magic. Up until the unban, Jund was a solid deck until turn 3, but other decks started to do unfair things in the midgame and Jund couldn't cope with it. BBE is amazing in mid- and lategame and makes the deck a tier 1 strategy again. The card is so strong, that trying to build the deck around her (like we tried at the beginning, and rightly so) is not worth it, as she simply performs without much help. That's why we also see her in so many decks where she is just "good", not excellent, for example RG Eldrazi or Ponza.
I am still unsure about Liliana, the Last Hope in the mainboard and the split between manlands, but there might not be the one way to do it so it is probably a meta decision whether to play The Last Hope in the mainboard or not. I like Treetop Village because of the low activation cost, the Trample ability and the solid body, but it's mana ability is quite a disadvantage in some situations.
Brutality is a good card, it really ties the deck together. I'm currently on a mix of Duress, Despise, IoK, Thoughtseize, and Brutality across 8 cards. It's not traditional but it's working well for me.
Also, I am still not comfortable giving up Mages in the 75, at least in my local meta. My meta has a lot of control, and it is our answer to Colonnades and flipped Azcantas. If those cards stick, it's pretty much game over. If nothing else, Mage can swing in for damage until the opponent is forced to remove it and you just blow up a land in response. I have also been tempted to try a basic mountain because of control, but it's just so bad early, and a bad topdeck.
If you look in the top 32, blue didn't go away. I have found myself siding in fulminator a ton, both on mtgo and at the fnms.
I never really advocated for the mountain. I think some people in this thread and community overreacted to the superleague. Twilight mire has been fantastic.
3 raging ravine seems the right call for 24 land builds and the 3 2 split in 25 lands. 4 man lands in 24 builds seem a little greedy, we only had that happening when twin was forcing the meta to be fair.
Bbe ended up being so good we didn't need to build around her. While 4x bolts is great in theory the meta is adapting to bolt being popular, the 3 3 split seems right to me. Having more 1 cmc cards has felt right. The community was clunking the curve up.
I get nervous only having 1k command, 1x decay and 1x pulse mainboard to handle artifacts like bridge or chalice, etc. Last hope taking less space in the board would be nice to fit either a 2nd grim or hazoret.
I've always felt very happy with junds consensus except during the kalitas era and now currently.
I think the problem with Abzan is that it's currently a weaker version of 3 different decks:
I just don't know what would make you sleeve up Abzan over one of those decks right now. I think that straight B/G is still a good option though, on the back of better resilience to Blood Moon and the strength of Field of Ruin.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (24)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Anger of the Gods
I so far have felt fine with 24 lands, and it makes space for the spells other than the 12 1-drop spells, which I think is very important to not have too little 1-drop spells. The numbers for terminate, pulse, decay, kcommand can probably be tuned to your liking, but I like having access to all of these mainboard. I haven't had enough chance to work with Grim Lavamancer, but the times I have had it it's been amazing so I wanna have access to 2.
With spring break coming up I won't be able to test the list at my LGS until a week or so, but at the next opportunity this list is probably what I'm going to try.
Looks like a reasonable 75
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
These Things
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay
Whatever This Is
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Places
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Treetop Village
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Twilight Mire
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Anger of the Gods
Just some notes on some decisions:
Ended up beating
Temur midrange (destroyed him)
Burn
Some janky cheerio deck that didn't look like cheerios until game 3
BBE Zoo
Burn
I lost to some janky bad version of cheerios, he needed an exact topdeck and got it. I also didn't realize he was some bad cheerios deck until game 3, otherwise I would have been more resourceful with removal.
Have really enjoyed Scooze in the side as the 3rd piece of grave hate. The lower to the curve set up has felt nice and land hasn't been too much of an issue, although mtgo gave at times some awful openers and mulligans (like 6 lands, or 1 land).
I think going to 3x Fulminators is really reasonable, Titanshift is poorly positioned, and quite a bit of aggro is springing up which helps fight off Tron.
Also, Pierson ran zero grave hate. Honestly, while he deserved his top 8 and people don't just accidentally stumble to a top 8 in huge tournaments like that, I think he probably also hit the pairings lottery. It's better to look at all the decks that place, not just 1 or 2 lists that validate our biases.
I haven't missed Thrun. My theory is that the average blue player in modern just isn't good, because my blue matchup win percentage has really skyrocketed with the wake of the unbanning.
I think I will try the third Ooze over either the Cage or the Spellbomb in the side as well, and see how it goes.
Weirdly enough, I had the same issues with the openers. Thats where I am completely confused. I kept thinking my shuffling was not the best, but on mtgo you can't argue with that. Its weird how consistantly I either have 5/6 lands or 1/2 lands in my opening hand. I really don't get why.
I'm still gonna give it a shot with 1 Grafdigger's, 1 Anger. With the 3 Scooze in the main I think I'll do alright. Then again that's what testing is for.
I'll totally concede Thrun is a personal choice, but I really want a card for grindy matchups and don't care for Hazoret, so I'm trying it out,
I like the 3/3 split between Bolt and Push. I felt that one Push wasn't enough and went up to a second, shaving a bolt for a third is certainly not a bad idea.
I don't like zero terminate, it's such a good safety net that I think it deserves atleast one slot though I can see trimming the second.
Additional Thoughts on 14 vs 15 creatures?
BG/x BG
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers: 5
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells: 16
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
Here are some thoughts about the current configuration:
- 4 Manlands in a 24-lands build: This might turn out to be too greedy, but I want to experiment with it. I don't like going below 3 Ravines, not only because it is a very good manland in the lategame, but also because the colorfixing it provides is better than the one of Treetop Village. Treetop Village might end up becoming a 4th Mire or a 2nd Forest. When playing 25 lands, I would definitely play at least one Treetop Village.
- 2x Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75: This is mainly a meta choice for my local store, as there are so many matchups where she shines. Cutting one of them is totally reasonable.
- Outside the 31 core spells of the deck (The creatures, 4 LotV and the 12 one cmc spells) there are 5 cards you can include in the deck (4 if you play 25 lands). That's an incredible low number for all the Decays, K-Commands, Terminates and Pulses we would like to play and this is also the reason why there seems to be always a couple of cards too much (like you mentioned). Therefore I decided to include each one a single time. Why? Delver mentioned it some pages back if I remember correctly: Decay, Pulse, Kolaghan's Command and Terminate together form a playset of very flexible removals. I don't see them as one-offs, but rather regard them as a unity. You can of course play 2 Commands and 2 Pulses, but that would mean giving up on Terminate and Decay which I personally do not like.
Just curious what you meant by saying that we want somewhere between 15-18 1 cmc spells? Does this include the sideboard?
It's so interesting to me that the main posters on the Jund thread are reaching so many similar conclusions to the 75. I was tempted to make my 2nd forest a treetop instead based off of Joel Larsens article on Channelfireball. I'd be interested to hear about your experience with that 4th manland.
I'm finding that my curve feels smoother with just 3x ETB lands as opposed to the 5x ETB lands. Treetop seems at its best when you want to insulate yourself against LOTV.
Your mainboard is basically what I'm playing except I moved the 3rd Ooze to the board for the 2nd terminate. And I'm running the forest instead of Treetop. Losing against Humans on Monday made me realize how much I noticed a lack of removal, as we were running 2x extra removals in exchange for discard.
Seeing two K-Commands early on is so ugly, and I often hate it in aggro matchups, as 3 mana for a shock isn't great. They'll often dump their hand by then or have a sandbagged land. The mainboard Last Hope could easily be another K-Command. I guess I have her as a recursion, win con and good against tiny creature decks.
You're right that the removal suite has to be looked at as a whole.
No one seems too high on the Hazoret sideboard, hm? I'm surprised to see all the EE's and Golgari charms, I've never been impressed with those cards in Jund, Junk utilizes it better. Is this a hedge at your local stores?
And yeah, Jund with all these extra 1 mana spells seem more well suited, which can definitely justify 24 lands. Our postboard gets uppe'd a lot though, is this a problem though?