MTG Salvation

Jund player left in at least one Thoughtseize on the draw against Humans in Game 3 - this can't be right, can it?

Quote from DeFish »

Abzan is basically just BG with Lingering Souls and Stony Silence at this point, it's a reasonable direction to trend in. With nearly every 2-color midrange deck using Field of Ruin, you really can't just arbitrarily play a random assortment of 3-color cards anymore. Having to run a single Mountain puts a very real strain on our mana base, but at the same time it's hard to play 4 BBE, 3-4 Bolt 2 K-Command, and 2 Terminate without it. And that's ignoring sideboard cards like Anger of the Gods.

I thought about this a bit too. One of the nice aspects about Reid's Abzan build which was BG splashing for lingering souls and stony silence was that he didn't have to have white mana early on. Jund doesn't really have that luxury because of bolt, so I've just accepted that we are a 3-color midrange deck. I liked the mana base that Seth Manfield had in his TCGplayer article, where if you're going to run 5 manlands and 25 lands, max out on raging ravines, so his was running 4 ravines 1 treetop village.

IMHO we shouldn’t be cutting red sources, especially with field of ruin, which can keep us off of red. You don’t want to have BBE in hand with no way of casting her, or even a ravine late game with no other red source to activate it. We run 25 or 24 lands: we should be able to have enough red sources.

My problem with Grim Flayer in general is that it makes the deck too reliant on the graveyard. Jund is sort of on that bubble, were graveyard hurts us a little, but sometime we draw the right half and it ends up being bad hate against us. With Grim added into that, grave hate pushes graveyard hate just enough to be very effective.

With Jund running less removal, he also becomes worse to try and activate. We wouldn't play traverse or baubles, as they become bad cascades. Jund's main list became very tight with BBE reintroduced.


I've been fine without running a mountain in Jund, I'd rather run the 5x man-lands in 25 lands.

I feel---not right playing no terminates in Jund. I'm so busy with school, internship, reading and the wife being around I can't test too much. Going to play with 2nd place's Junds list tonight. I'm sure I'll go 2-2 again since I'm in a slump at my FNM.

Delirium is a mechanic, which naturally does not really fit our playstyle. It just demands synergy, which we are not really seeking. The one simple thing that Grim Flayer is even being considered in GBx, is that the baseline is at least not almost worthless like Traverse. I personally just find a 2/2 for 2 not good enough as a baseline. The ability is powerful, but by no means reliable. In addition to delirium being inconsistant and disruptive, I am not a fan of the variance you get by playing this card. The upside is high, but playing weaker support cards to enable this upside is already diminishing the latter for me.

Do you guys think there might be some merit to not run Fulminator in the board and perhaps play some better more aggressive threats in those slots? I’m thinking generic creatures that can come in, in the same matchups? Hazoret comes to mind as a clear inclusion. Just wondering if attacking mana bases is where we should be in the titanshift/Tron matchups or if we could speed up our clock + disrupt with hand disruption for better results. My feeling is that it wouldn’t work, but I’d just love to not be forced into running mages in the board. I was looking for more hasty creatures that could be worth running, but I didn’t really find anything that made me that interested.

And if all that fails, could it perhaps be that simply conceding those matchups is a better plan?

I was going to ask about it. I think it was a very big change not to run with FM and little commented on the forum. after all he did top 8 in a GP. I do not think the strategy he used should be conceded against Tron.

Fulminator is a legit good card against blue control decks and other combo decks.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to keep in fatal push against colonnade decks.

I've been doing so poorly with jund at my fnm, going 2 and 2. Feels bad, I don't even feel qualified to give advice on the deck lately.

I'm having a little more trouble against decks that demand heavy removal and better against the slower decks

Been steamrolled by humans two times the last two weeks and that shouldn't happen. I'm pretty sure I should be playing Bob first and cutting most discard postboard

I dunno man, don't know what junds suite should even look like.

I'm considering shaving a Bolt (I have 4 rn) for something else. If I were to do so, I was thinking either:

• Go up to 6 discard main with a 4/2 split IOK/TS. I currently have a 3/2 split with a TS in the board.
• Add a second Terminate
• Move the second Pulse from the board to the main
OR

• Add a third Ooze

This is considering an open meta, in preparation for GP Hartford. I'm just not sure which direction to go, and it looks like many others don't either

EDIT: 5th option is that I could add a third Push

I've had some trouble against decks that swarm the board and tax removal as well. It's really because we have shaved on kill spells.

Sweepers in the side are now more appealing IMO.

Was reading the write-up Andrew Sullano posted in the Elves primer on his top 32 at the GP. The dude wrecked every (four!) Jund deck he teed off against. Matching BBE's alongside Lead the Stampede make it very hard for Jund to win a war of attrition. Just thought that was interesting.

I have a serious question I hope y'all can help me with. I'm guessing this idea is wrong because I haven't seen a single list running it, but instead of going with the 4x Iok/2x TS for the targeted discard, what about replacing the 4th IoK with a Collective Brutality? I'm having an EXTREMELY hard time deciding on my removal suite and I thought maybe I could get a targeted discard and a soft removal out one card. It would also free up a SB slot, help with getting flooded, and help shore up a couple of MU's game-one. I know it's not turn-one Inquisition, but still. Why is no one trying it as a one-of MB? Am I missing something?

The only other place I can find a slot for more removal is the third Scooze, and I just really don't think it's right to play with less. The card is too good, and it's ESSENTIAL in quite a few MU's.

When you have problems about too few removal, why not go with a lower CMC curve? I been doing exactly that.



I don't have problems against Burn/Humans/Elves with this list so far. Now I am still testing the 24 lands merit, but right now it gives me the opportunity to run the full 12 CMC1 interaction spell suite.

I am testing whether the singleton golgari charm should be a second Pulse. Rest has been fine so far.

Man, I truly like that MB. The problem I'm having is that the deck plays such amazing, powerful cards that the opportunity cost of running "X" card instead "Y" card is huge! Both "X" and "Y" are really good cards and I want to jam them all.

This decklist looks VERY solid against the faster/aggro decks. Looks like you'd have a lot better time against Infect and Affinity as well. I think if I were to lower my curve like that I'd try very hard to find a way to jam a MB Lavaman. I very well might use your deck as a template for the Wednesday night tournament coming up at my LGS.

Are you sold on that second basic Forest? How are you liking it?

I think if I ran that list and replaced a Fatal Push with a Grim Lavamancer in the MB, my SB would look like this (keep in mind this is for my LGS's meta, of course):



I think I'd be pretty comfortable bringing that list.

On Golgari Charm vs. Maelstrom Pulse:
Charm has been an allstar for me. Right before I typed out this response I blew out a Mardu Pyromancer player on Cockatrice two games in a row (after losing the first) by completely wiping his board with a Charm. I just really like it. It has a lot of applications. With that said, your list seems pretty soft to Elspeth's and their kin. Having two Pulses in the 75 is like a security blanket for me.

How has the Engineered Explosives been working out for you? I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my two... that card seems really good right now and I don't have any. I probably should have bought one instead of the masterpiece Hazoret.

I know mages come in for a bunch of matchups (it is my go to filler when I have cards I want to get out of my deck) - what I’m suggesting/trying to do, is to find other good generic threats that can come in for those same matchups, essentially making us a better Aggro deck / having more threats. While Mage is good against control it isn’t not like it is putting up a very fast clock.

I would guess that the higher your cmc curve in the deck (more pws, pulses and k commands) the better your matchups against slow control decks get. Whereas low cmc discard and removal ups your game against Aggro. I’ve had incredible results against burn with my list lately - with only run the 2 brutalities in the side for the matchup. Being consistently able to kill their early creatures, following it up with painless discard into goyf makes that a winnable matchup. The preboarded matches basicly comes down to not drawing your bobs and TSes.

I haven’t played much against the humans deck. But I would guess that we side out two Lotv and TSes and bring in sweepers, spot removal and potentially more scoozes if they are in our board. Early confidant seems fine if the board is clear or you need more removal.

Quote from FlyingDelver »

When you have problems about too few removal, why not go with a lower CMC curve? I been doing exactly that.

moondemon88's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands [24] 4 Verdant Catacombs 3 Bloodstained Mire 1 Wooded Foothills 4 Blackcleave Cliffs 3 Raging Ravine 2 Overgrown Tomb 1 Blood Crypt 1 Stomping Ground 1 Twilight Mire 2 Swamp 2 Forest Creatures [14] 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Dark Confidant 2 Scavenging Ooze 4 Bloodbraid Elf	Noncreature Spells [22] 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 2 Thoughtseize 3 Lightning Bolt 3 Fatal Push 2 Terminate 1 Abrupt Decay 2 Kolaghan's Command 1 Maelstrom Pulse 4 Liliana of the Veil	Sideboard [15] 3 Fulminator Mage 2 Kitchen Finks 2 Collective Brutality 2 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Liliana, the Last Hope 1 Grim Lavamancer 1 Golgari Charm 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Engineered Explosives

I don't have problems against Burn/Humans/Elves with this list so far. Now I am still testing the 24 lands merit, but right now it gives me the opportunity to run the full 12 CMC1 interaction spell suite.

I am testing whether the singleton golgari charm should be a second Pulse. Rest has been fine so far.

Oddly we have the same list other then i have 4 bolts 2 push. How are you liking the Twilight mire? i replaced my mountain with a twilight mire and have yet to ever use it so was wondering about your opinion.

Quote from FlyingDelver »

When you have problems about too few removal, why not go with a lower CMC curve? I been doing exactly that.

Spsiegel1987's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands [24] 4 Verdant Catacombs 3 Bloodstained Mire 1 Wooded Foothills 4 Blackcleave Cliffs 3 Raging Ravine 2 Overgrown Tomb 1 Blood Crypt 1 Stomping Ground 1 Twilight Mire 2 Swamp 2 Forest Creatures [14] 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Dark Confidant 2 Scavenging Ooze 4 Bloodbraid Elf	Noncreature Spells [22] 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 2 Thoughtseize 3 Lightning Bolt 3 Fatal Push 2 Terminate 1 Abrupt Decay 2 Kolaghan's Command 1 Maelstrom Pulse 4 Liliana of the Veil	Sideboard [15] 3 Fulminator Mage 2 Kitchen Finks 2 Collective Brutality 2 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Liliana, the Last Hope 1 Grim Lavamancer 1 Golgari Charm 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Engineered Explosives

I don't have problems against Burn/Humans/Elves with this list so far. Now I am still testing the 24 lands merit, but right now it gives me the opportunity to run the full 12 CMC1 interaction spell suite.

I am testing whether the singleton golgari charm should be a second Pulse. Rest has been fine so far.

Maybe I should try yours. I thought Piersons list ran well, I played some janky MTGOLDfish brew that was a wall ramp deck. Game 3 I think I truly would have beaten him had I realized what his deck was doing, I was unfamiliar with one the cards that got him an easy Hornet Queen.

Humans ran me over, he dropped Champion, LT and noble all in one turn and it was over. Game 2 he kept bouncing my Bob and Goyf and eventually killed me with a giant Freebooter. Having Pia and an Image copy a LT didn't help.



I decided to try recent articles and their sideboard plan in the mirror. The guy I played is a Jund player too, so I kept a functional 1 lander since I don't want to mull in the mirror, worked fine as I was on the draw, and found my land. He was flooded and I was mana screwed, but flood is often worse than mana screw in grindy games.

On the draw for game 2 I decided to sideboard -1 Bob, -3 IOK, -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Hazoret, +1 Pulse, +2 Kitchen Finks

He hit me with Fulminator 3 times in a short amount of time but I still ended up having more gas. He seemed to question whether the fulminator plan was the right choice.

Also, Flyer, this is basically Joesesph Hererra's deck from the Classic, no? I like that you chose to shave that dreadbore for the fatal push. If you shaved 1x K Command for a 2nd Decay this would basically be his list.

How would you feel about making one of those spell-bombs into a scavenging ooze?

Are you down on 1x Ancient Grudge because Affinity is down or your meta?

I wonder if a sideboard should look like this in an open meta



Jadine, now that I think of it, played that Scooze in the side as her third sideboard graveyard hate. This would help shore up some of the issues of not wanting to lose Scooze's power for matchups he's good, plus it'll see more play in general than just against graveyard decks.

I'd really like to somehow squeeze in a Hazoret, but I dunno.

I went 3-0-1 last night beating Traverse Shadow, Ponza, and Abzan Company (Melira/Anafenza combo), then drew with my last opponent. He was on Tron, which is a matchup I'd actually like to play more to get a feel for it in a BBE world, but I was looking to get out early if possible. I played the same maindeck as the 2nd place GP list, but retooled the sideboard a bit to make room for Fulminator Mage. The deck ran well, but my Shadow opponent was very new to the deck and my Ponza opponent had some mana issues, so it wasn't a "fought through by the skin of my teeth because I'm great" night. I'd like to try a 24 land list like what Delver posted, though I'll probably drop the second K-Command for Liliana, the Last Hope.

I think that sweepers are a mistake against humans, specifically, because they have a lot of ways to make them bad. Freebooter, Thalia, and Meddling Mage all impact your ability to play them, and if you don't play them soon enough you run the risk of humans just growing a board big enough to where their creatures can start living through it. I think that Grim Lavamancer is actually the secret sauce to that matchup, because he gets past Thalia, can come down very early, and can clean up random goons so that you can save your removal spells for the cards that are actually important. If I was really worried about humans I'd drop the second Liliana, the Last Hope from my side for a second Lavaman.

I think I'm going to begin testing a list with no Fulminator in the side. I've look over it all and it seems the only matchups where Fulminator pulls actual work compared to other options are Tron, Valakut, and 5c Death Shadow. The first two are already our worst matchups, and the latter I feel like we can sideboard in better options.

Just seems like an unnecessary concession of 3/4 sideboard slots to boost maybe 5% points in our worst matchups. The GP 2nd place list has help reafirm this idea to me.

Not to forget our only way to destroy a flipped Azcanta.