I was wondering, what is our plan supposed to be against the small RG Eldrazi variant playing Obligators and BBEs? I played against it today and the matchup wasn't good. In our first game, he got a lot of value off some Reshapers and eventually just pushed enough damage through, stealing my dude with Obligator for lethal. In our second game, he crushed me with several Reality Smashers.
I brought in Fulminator Mages, the Damnation I'm testing, and the Kitchen Finks, cutting the discard spells and I think an Abrupt Decay. My thoughts were that Mages are still fine against Temple, and the Damnations seem good. Finks felt like the resiliency would be good.
I'm not sure what the matchup is supposed to be like or how we're supposed to approach it. I just tried to play dudes and removal and stuff, just the typical Jund sort of strategy. The games really didn't seem that close.
That Infect match was pretty rough for Jadine, but it was still nice to see two Jund decks make the top 32.
Infect is one of those matchups where the lower number of Push(compared to before) and lack of Terminate could certainly be felt. But realistically how many Infect players do we expect to run into all things considering?
Blossoming Defense was available to Infect pre Probe Ban as well for a period of time, I don't think its therefore worse now compared to the past.
It's worse when we're not playing as many Fatal Push and Terminate as we used. Even then those matches were kind of tense. I also feel that we're losing some percentage points against Affinity in game 1 as well now.
It seems like you guys forgot that Probe and Fatal Push were never legal in modern together
I said pre Probe ban era. Probe Ban: January 9th, 2017, Fatal Push print: January 20th, 2017
Blossoming Defense print: September 30th, 2016.
So I am talking about the few months of September until the Probe ban (In other words, the period of time where Infect was the strongest). We had no Push at the time and compared to now, actually similar amounts of removal, namely: 4 Bolts, 3 Terminate, 2 Decay, 2 KCommand, 1 Pulse, 4 LoTV. So compared to now, the difference on average is -1 Terminate, -1-2 Decays (which are bad against Inkmoth anyway and which I cut against Infect back then) and +1-2 Push. So, I am arguing its actually better than during that period, since Probe is gone and we have Push now.
It doesn't make sense to compare the removal suite now to the one we had in the last year (January 2017 - February 2018), since Infect was completely dead in that period of time. Obviously it got "worse" compared to that, but not compared to the time where Infect was a good deck.
I don't really care what you're comparing it to, the match up feels like a crap shoot at best even after sideboarding. The only reason I'm particularly aware of it is that we have a local Infect player. You brought up the era. We're just talking about the match up. At least I am anyway.
What are the current thoughts on Rabblemaster? I ran him before BBE's unban and found him fairly effective especially while Grixis DS was the boogieman. But now with 4 BBE I feel like he may be a bit too clunky or situational, and I'd usually prefer to cascade into a Lili/Maelstrom Pulse/Fulminator instead of him. I tried a list with 4 BBE and 3 Rabble but I'm not sure if it was any more effective than just cutting him for more removal.
I'm not high on rabblemaster. I only played him last year in desperation to stay relevant. Right now I don't prefer him over additional Pulses, Kommands or Last Hopes.
I don't really care what you're comparing it to, the match up feels like a crap shoot at best even after sideboarding. The only reason I'm particularly aware of it is that we have a local Infect player. You brought up the era. We're just talking about the match up. At least I am anyway.
Care or don't care, fact is that in that period I mentioned Infect was not the problem and actually the reason Jund was a good deck, as it had a good matchup during that time. And I really disagree about it being a crapshoot right now, since we obviously have an equally good matchup and the tools to beat the deck at least compared to when Infect was a good deck. And that matters, regardless of what you are referring to or what you are saying you are talking about. Just because only I seem to do the comparison, does make it irrelevant? Is that what you are trying to say?
Its the same thing with the manabase, why should Infect now be a problem when it was a good matchup back then? Infect had probe back then, and we had no Push. I honestly don't get why you are denying that piece of info we have about the matchup. Infect can have nut draws like we saw, yeah, but I think there is absolutely no reason to be alarmed.
You also have to keep in mind that Jadine draw nothing but lands after Fulminator.
Jund lists play somewhere 10-12 removal in the main deck right now which is enough to beat Infect and other decks where removal is what you need to beat them. Therefore Infect is still a good matchup and don't think it's any worse actually. Jadine just got unlucky as she drew the wrong half of the deck. If you don't draw enough removal Infect will take benefit of that and you will lose. this doesn't make matchup unfavored from Jund's perspective.
I the same about Affinity which is also a good matchup in my opinion and we should win as long as our opponent doesn't draw Etched Champion or they have the nut draw and we don't draw (enough) removal.
Jund doesn't have easy wins and even these two matchups aren't complete blowouts but I'm certain, especially for Infect, that we are favored. Jund need to be careful of your play and draw removal.
Yeah I agree. You can also loose to Affinity if they have a nut draw like that.
And also, I think Jadine was a little bit loose with using her KCommand. She made the Infect player discard and brought back Ooze. I think I would have saved it for having another removal for Inkmoth. Its just the most oppressive threat they have, and KCommand is very good at killing it. I think a random discard and the Ooze were less important at that point. Especially since the infect player had I believe about 5 cards in hand, which makes a discard less effective and makes the chance higher, that Bolt and Push aren't enough. She had also 5 mana to cast all spells, KCommand, Push and Bolt.
ah yeah for sure. its like me playing jeskai. i have a fantastic matchup against infect. however if i shave bolts to play more helix then my infect matchup is worse, regardless if im still favored.
just gotta say. jund is lookin damn good these days
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
ah yeah for sure. its like me playing jeskai. i have a fantastic matchup against infect. however if i shave bolts to play more helix then my infect matchup is worse, regardless if im still favored.
just gotta say. jund is lookin damn good these days
Of course. And yes our removal suite is of course worse now against Infect than pre unbanning of BBE, but all I personally think is that this specific comparison (pre unban BBE and after unban BBE) does not matter at all when we are taking into account that Infect was not represented pre BBE unban.
Its the comparison of now vs. the time were Infect was a good deck that matters much more.
Infect is still very much favorable but it's certainly going to have gotten worse with most lists dropping a lot of discard and cheap removal spells. I have noticed that my personal Affinity MU has gotten worse since BBE arrived and my list adapted around it. I always review my losses after they occur (if I can) to see if there was anything I could have done and they were inevitable but there is certainly a fault with my build when it comes to Affinity, at least. I do think that we have to acknowledge that current Jund builds do have more of a vulnerability to fast decks (like Infect and Affinity) that require seeing a lot of early cheap efficient removal spells and hand disruption to win since we've focused lists around maximum value from BBE.
To note, Jadine played 6 discard spells, 3 Bolts and 2 Pushes, 2 Decays, 1 KCommand, 1 Pulse and 4 LoTV as well as 1 LtLH. She did lack Terminates, which probably hurt her, but other than that, I think its quite fine.
Decks running only 4 discard, more Pulses and less terminates as well as less Pushes surely have a harder time now, but its not that we can adjust the deck in a pinch.
yeah i get where youre coming from. just gotta keep in mind that modern is an open field. knowing infect is less represented doesnt mean much when you are paired against them. dismissing underplayed decks is a good way to get your teeth kicked in by decks like affinity.
i also expect the midrange matchups are going to get pretty inbred in the near future. how can you beat the good stuff deck? do more good stuff than their good stuff.
more decks like decandio's from the open or those rug bbe + av decks, and i predict you guys will soon be looking for sideboard slots for more power cards like olivia or chandra.
those are just my thoughts on the subject. i was just lurkin in the thread seeing if i could gleam some insight on how to attack you guys without throwing my other matchups into the garbage. the quest continues.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hey guys, I'm quite new to this forum, but I've been toying with Jund for about a year. Went to my LGS last saturday, first time after BBE unban, formally finished 3-0-1 (ID in last round and split prizes) unofficially 4-0, so I'd like to share my deck and some thoughts
In my first version i played main 1x Abrupt Decay and second LtLH, but switched them for Fatal pushes. I tried Dreadbore, but wasn't happy with it, so Downfall it is. I'm really happy with 2/2 Treetop - Ravine split. In fact, Treetop has me won more games than Ravine did. And now to the matches:
Round 1 - friend of mine with As Foretold/Living End/Goryo/Kiki combo deck - really awful, as he has many ways to cheat creatures into play or combo out. First game i lead with discard on Izzet charm, followed with Goyf and Maelstrom Pulse on As Foretold, kept slamming threats on the board discarding relevant spells and keeping removal on Kiki/Exarch with actiove Ooze to prevent graveyard shenanigans.
Board out all Lilianas, board in CB+Extraction. second game one-lander hand so mulligan to six, Kept with two mana, Bob, IoK, extraction and pulse. He starts with Faithless looting, discarding two Griselbrands. My turn IoK on As Foretold, Extraction on Griselbrand, followed with Bob and then Pulse on second As Foretold. Have to say, that he was bit unlucky with his draws. 1-0
Round 2 - Monogreen stompy.
Game 1 Kept hand with Treetop, Forest, Swamp, Cliffs, K. Command, Pulse and Goyf. We both started with treetop, opponent followed with Experiment one and Dryad militant, on my turn I made a huge mistake by playng forest instead of swamp or cliffs and Goyf. My plan was Kommand for Dryad and then Pulse on whatever number of Experiments on turn 3 and 4, unfortunately due to this mistake a had to take some damage and Opponent took me down to 5 lives. Much to say, that BBE saved my a** with cascading into Scooze, which gave me enough life and grew up to stabilize (i was at 2 life, and 5 lands by the time i was casting BBE)
Board in Lavamancer, Anger, Huntmaster and second LtLH, board out 2 Bobs, Downfall, I guess, and last card I don't remember.
Game 2 kept hand with some discard lands and goyfs, however my goyfs couldn't compete with his Dungrove elders and they quickly took me down.
Game 3 Was jaust fine T1 discard, T2 Goyf, T3 LlTH, T4 Elf into LotV, T5 Scooze. 2-0
Round 3 Skred
I don't really remember much of game1, outside i was afraid of Blood moons, so i fetched for my basics. Had typical plays, discard, Goyf, bolts. Opponent almost stabilized with one skred and then relic to kill one of my goyfs and on the next turn He killed the other one with Chandra, I killed Chandra with treetop , he Slammed down koth, but i topdecked Elf into bolt, which was enough to kill him, awesome.
Side in Thrun and maybe Huntmaster.
Game 2 was opponent a bit unlucky with two scrying sheets and only one mountain. i could tear his hand apart with discard, put enough pressure with Goyfs even after two relics. Downfall on Koth, K. Command on Mom and Pops, LtLH uptick on tokens and Thrun to seal the deal.
3-0
Round 4 Company hatebears. We were only two players with 9 points, so we called it draw to keep first places and only played for the first prize pick.
Game 1 2x bolts on his manadorks, LotV against his lonly Mirran Crusader. Small pressure with goyf and on Lili's uptick, he put into play Loxodon Hierarch and played second one on his next turn. I can not explain, how sweet was that feeling, knowing I've Pulse in hand. However,the tables have turned after 2 CoCos, when finks, qasali pridemage and tvo voices hit the field. He kept attacking me with voice and i was waiting for Ooze. That was the only time, I wanted to play 3 of them. I played BBE, found Ooze and drew some fatal pushes on his Voice tokens. Stabilized on 1 life.
Board in Anger, Lavamancer, LtLH, CB, out Downfall, 2 LotV and 2 Bobs, I think.
Game 2 awesome hand, discard, bolts, lavamancer, LtLH, lands. Bolt on Leonin arbiter, LtLH on Thalia, lavamncer to kill anything. but it still was close, due to multiple companies, had to trade Ravine with Stirring wildwood, to keep me alive, found Ooze and brutality and slowly managed to take over.
Overall I was really happy, how the deck performed and as I expected, BBE is awesome, but i didn't know that she's THAT awesoma, really saved me in many games.
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MODERN:BGRJund, RBGUDredge, LEGACY:BUReanimator, BRWGU Dredge
"Aut vincere aut mori"
That highlights the issue more, Jadine runs an arguably better suited list against Infect than most current builds and still lost to it.
I have a different perspective on this as it seems. So let me explain my thoughts on that step by step, and correct me if I am wrong about something.
So the prevalent point of view for some here is, that Infect is a worse matchup now since we obviously cut down on removal to incoorporate BBE. Now, regardless of the fact that Infect was close to not present at that time (again, speaking from January 2017 to February 2018) that point of view is certainly correct, for obvious reasons. However, my question now is: Is this point of view a good way to assess the matchup as a whole?
If we look at the recent difference in removal spells and say Infect is worse now and point out an apparent issue, what are we implying with that? For me it seems that people arguing that way are trying to say that the absolute baseline of beating Infect is involving a removal suite like we used to have just before BBE got unbanned. Am I on a wrong path here? So the basic message is, that we should get back to pre BBE unban concerning the removal suite to beat Infect.
However, and now my point of view comes in, why should the baseline of beating infect be changed now, only because we used to run more removal recently, which is a time where Infect wasn't even a good deck? I say, lets look at the time where infect was actually oppressive, where it was mandatory to beat infect and compare the removal suite to that time to the removal suite of now. And my point is, that you won't find a big difference (not talking about the 4 discard, less Push/Terminate approaches now, but talking about Jadine-like approaches like the list from EctoMark) in those removal suites.
My point is, that since Infect has not changed (Blossoming Defense was also legal back then) that the matchup is certainly beatable if we play the removal suite that was played by some people recently (which includes 6 discard, 4 Bolts, 2 Pushes, 2 Terminates, 2 KCommand 2 Pulses, 4 LoTV = 16 removal spells). The thing is, we were able to beat Infect when it was oppressive; and we had 6 discard, 4 Bolts, 3 Terminates, 2 Decays, 2 KCommands, 1 Pulse 4 LoTV to do so (=16 removal spells as well). Why should we need now a removal suite like this (=right before BBE unban): 4 Push, 2 Bolt, 3 Terminate, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 KCommand, 4 LoTV, 1 LtLH which is 17 removal spells (I am reliasing now that even that difference is really not big.
Again, if we are talking about the first list from Reid Duke, then sure, the removal spells are less present here. But if we talk about Jadine's approach or the approach of EctoMark then I totally think its fine.
I brought in Fulminator Mages, the Damnation I'm testing, and the Kitchen Finks, cutting the discard spells and I think an Abrupt Decay. My thoughts were that Mages are still fine against Temple, and the Damnations seem good. Finks felt like the resiliency would be good.
I'm not sure what the matchup is supposed to be like or how we're supposed to approach it. I just tried to play dudes and removal and stuff, just the typical Jund sort of strategy. The games really didn't seem that close.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Infect is one of those matchups where the lower number of Push(compared to before) and lack of Terminate could certainly be felt. But realistically how many Infect players do we expect to run into all things considering?
BG/x BG
All of these lists look so different and it didn't leave me closer to what jund should look like.
It seems like you guys forgot that Probe and Fatal Push were never legal in modern together
I said pre Probe ban era. Probe Ban: January 9th, 2017, Fatal Push print: January 20th, 2017
Blossoming Defense print: September 30th, 2016.
So I am talking about the few months of September until the Probe ban (In other words, the period of time where Infect was the strongest). We had no Push at the time and compared to now, actually similar amounts of removal, namely: 4 Bolts, 3 Terminate, 2 Decay, 2 KCommand, 1 Pulse, 4 LoTV. So compared to now, the difference on average is -1 Terminate, -1-2 Decays (which are bad against Inkmoth anyway and which I cut against Infect back then) and +1-2 Push. So, I am arguing its actually better than during that period, since Probe is gone and we have Push now.
It doesn't make sense to compare the removal suite now to the one we had in the last year (January 2017 - February 2018), since Infect was completely dead in that period of time. Obviously it got "worse" compared to that, but not compared to the time where Infect was a good deck.
I just want more removal in general.
Care or don't care, fact is that in that period I mentioned Infect was not the problem and actually the reason Jund was a good deck, as it had a good matchup during that time. And I really disagree about it being a crapshoot right now, since we obviously have an equally good matchup and the tools to beat the deck at least compared to when Infect was a good deck. And that matters, regardless of what you are referring to or what you are saying you are talking about. Just because only I seem to do the comparison, does make it irrelevant? Is that what you are trying to say?
Its the same thing with the manabase, why should Infect now be a problem when it was a good matchup back then? Infect had probe back then, and we had no Push. I honestly don't get why you are denying that piece of info we have about the matchup. Infect can have nut draws like we saw, yeah, but I think there is absolutely no reason to be alarmed.
You also have to keep in mind that Jadine draw nothing but lands after Fulminator.
sry just passing through. seeing what you guys were up to. ill be on my way
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Yeah I agree. You can also loose to Affinity if they have a nut draw like that.
And also, I think Jadine was a little bit loose with using her KCommand. She made the Infect player discard and brought back Ooze. I think I would have saved it for having another removal for Inkmoth. Its just the most oppressive threat they have, and KCommand is very good at killing it. I think a random discard and the Ooze were less important at that point. Especially since the infect player had I believe about 5 cards in hand, which makes a discard less effective and makes the chance higher, that Bolt and Push aren't enough. She had also 5 mana to cast all spells, KCommand, Push and Bolt.
just gotta say. jund is lookin damn good these days
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Of course. And yes our removal suite is of course worse now against Infect than pre unbanning of BBE, but all I personally think is that this specific comparison (pre unban BBE and after unban BBE) does not matter at all when we are taking into account that Infect was not represented pre BBE unban.
Its the comparison of now vs. the time were Infect was a good deck that matters much more.
To note, Jadine played 6 discard spells, 3 Bolts and 2 Pushes, 2 Decays, 1 KCommand, 1 Pulse and 4 LoTV as well as 1 LtLH. She did lack Terminates, which probably hurt her, but other than that, I think its quite fine.
Decks running only 4 discard, more Pulses and less terminates as well as less Pushes surely have a harder time now, but its not that we can adjust the deck in a pinch.
i also expect the midrange matchups are going to get pretty inbred in the near future. how can you beat the good stuff deck? do more good stuff than their good stuff.
more decks like decandio's from the open or those rug bbe + av decks, and i predict you guys will soon be looking for sideboard slots for more power cards like olivia or chandra.
those are just my thoughts on the subject. i was just lurkin in the thread seeing if i could gleam some insight on how to attack you guys without throwing my other matchups into the garbage. the quest continues.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
Walkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Fatal Push
1 Hero's Downfall
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Treetop Village
2 Raging Ravine
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
In my first version i played main 1x Abrupt Decay and second LtLH, but switched them for Fatal pushes. I tried Dreadbore, but wasn't happy with it, so Downfall it is. I'm really happy with 2/2 Treetop - Ravine split. In fact, Treetop has me won more games than Ravine did. And now to the matches:
Round 1 - friend of mine with As Foretold/Living End/Goryo/Kiki combo deck - really awful, as he has many ways to cheat creatures into play or combo out. First game i lead with discard on Izzet charm, followed with Goyf and Maelstrom Pulse on As Foretold, kept slamming threats on the board discarding relevant spells and keeping removal on Kiki/Exarch with actiove Ooze to prevent graveyard shenanigans.
Board out all Lilianas, board in CB+Extraction. second game one-lander hand so mulligan to six, Kept with two mana, Bob, IoK, extraction and pulse. He starts with Faithless looting, discarding two Griselbrands. My turn IoK on As Foretold, Extraction on Griselbrand, followed with Bob and then Pulse on second As Foretold. Have to say, that he was bit unlucky with his draws. 1-0
Round 2 - Monogreen stompy.
Game 1 Kept hand with Treetop, Forest, Swamp, Cliffs, K. Command, Pulse and Goyf. We both started with treetop, opponent followed with Experiment one and Dryad militant, on my turn I made a huge mistake by playng forest instead of swamp or cliffs and Goyf. My plan was Kommand for Dryad and then Pulse on whatever number of Experiments on turn 3 and 4, unfortunately due to this mistake a had to take some damage and Opponent took me down to 5 lives. Much to say, that BBE saved my a** with cascading into Scooze, which gave me enough life and grew up to stabilize (i was at 2 life, and 5 lands by the time i was casting BBE)
Board in Lavamancer, Anger, Huntmaster and second LtLH, board out 2 Bobs, Downfall, I guess, and last card I don't remember.
Game 2 kept hand with some discard lands and goyfs, however my goyfs couldn't compete with his Dungrove elders and they quickly took me down.
Game 3 Was jaust fine T1 discard, T2 Goyf, T3 LlTH, T4 Elf into LotV, T5 Scooze. 2-0
Round 3 Skred
I don't really remember much of game1, outside i was afraid of Blood moons, so i fetched for my basics. Had typical plays, discard, Goyf, bolts. Opponent almost stabilized with one skred and then relic to kill one of my goyfs and on the next turn He killed the other one with Chandra, I killed Chandra with treetop , he Slammed down koth, but i topdecked Elf into bolt, which was enough to kill him, awesome.
Side in Thrun and maybe Huntmaster.
Game 2 was opponent a bit unlucky with two scrying sheets and only one mountain. i could tear his hand apart with discard, put enough pressure with Goyfs even after two relics. Downfall on Koth, K. Command on Mom and Pops, LtLH uptick on tokens and Thrun to seal the deal.
3-0
Round 4 Company hatebears. We were only two players with 9 points, so we called it draw to keep first places and only played for the first prize pick.
Game 1 2x bolts on his manadorks, LotV against his lonly Mirran Crusader. Small pressure with goyf and on Lili's uptick, he put into play Loxodon Hierarch and played second one on his next turn. I can not explain, how sweet was that feeling, knowing I've Pulse in hand. However,the tables have turned after 2 CoCos, when finks, qasali pridemage and tvo voices hit the field. He kept attacking me with voice and i was waiting for Ooze. That was the only time, I wanted to play 3 of them. I played BBE, found Ooze and drew some fatal pushes on his Voice tokens. Stabilized on 1 life.
Board in Anger, Lavamancer, LtLH, CB, out Downfall, 2 LotV and 2 Bobs, I think.
Game 2 awesome hand, discard, bolts, lavamancer, LtLH, lands. Bolt on Leonin arbiter, LtLH on Thalia, lavamncer to kill anything. but it still was close, due to multiple companies, had to trade Ravine with Stirring wildwood, to keep me alive, found Ooze and brutality and slowly managed to take over.
Overall I was really happy, how the deck performed and as I expected, BBE is awesome, but i didn't know that she's THAT awesoma, really saved me in many games.
"Aut vincere aut mori"
I have a different perspective on this as it seems. So let me explain my thoughts on that step by step, and correct me if I am wrong about something.
So the prevalent point of view for some here is, that Infect is a worse matchup now since we obviously cut down on removal to incoorporate BBE. Now, regardless of the fact that Infect was close to not present at that time (again, speaking from January 2017 to February 2018) that point of view is certainly correct, for obvious reasons. However, my question now is: Is this point of view a good way to assess the matchup as a whole?
If we look at the recent difference in removal spells and say Infect is worse now and point out an apparent issue, what are we implying with that? For me it seems that people arguing that way are trying to say that the absolute baseline of beating Infect is involving a removal suite like we used to have just before BBE got unbanned. Am I on a wrong path here? So the basic message is, that we should get back to pre BBE unban concerning the removal suite to beat Infect.
However, and now my point of view comes in, why should the baseline of beating infect be changed now, only because we used to run more removal recently, which is a time where Infect wasn't even a good deck? I say, lets look at the time where infect was actually oppressive, where it was mandatory to beat infect and compare the removal suite to that time to the removal suite of now. And my point is, that you won't find a big difference (not talking about the 4 discard, less Push/Terminate approaches now, but talking about Jadine-like approaches like the list from EctoMark) in those removal suites.
My point is, that since Infect has not changed (Blossoming Defense was also legal back then) that the matchup is certainly beatable if we play the removal suite that was played by some people recently (which includes 6 discard, 4 Bolts, 2 Pushes, 2 Terminates, 2 KCommand 2 Pulses, 4 LoTV = 16 removal spells). The thing is, we were able to beat Infect when it was oppressive; and we had 6 discard, 4 Bolts, 3 Terminates, 2 Decays, 2 KCommands, 1 Pulse 4 LoTV to do so (=16 removal spells as well). Why should we need now a removal suite like this (=right before BBE unban): 4 Push, 2 Bolt, 3 Terminate, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 KCommand, 4 LoTV, 1 LtLH which is 17 removal spells (I am reliasing now that even that difference is really not big.
Again, if we are talking about the first list from Reid Duke, then sure, the removal spells are less present here. But if we talk about Jadine's approach or the approach of EctoMark then I totally think its fine.
Chaos making that comment is something I disagree with and leaves me with the impression that it's a matchup he doesn't have good luck with.
Almost no jund list is running just 4 discard, most lists have moved to 5 or 6.
The decks I want to test out are joesepth herreras from the classic and connets from the top 32 in the open.
No one seems to agree on the removal suit though, that's for sure
I've also found dreadbore ******* terrible. We are overrating jace, I think it's absolutely unneeded.
Playing BBE against Affinity, burn and infect are not thrilling to me.
It's possible lists have to start looking more like Herrerra's (minus the fink)