I like the list a lot. I think I’m going to take both Kitchen Finks out and replace one with another Collective Brutality. Not sure yet what I’d use the other freed slot for. I feel strongly that we have Burn’s creatures on lock and don’t need another blocker in Finks. I think Brutality is better there, and I think I’d rather have a 3/0 “split” than a 2/1 split. Brutality is also really nice against combo (Infect, Scapeshift, Storm, Grishoalbrand, etc.) and is an extra targeted discard against Control. I wish its “Duress” mode was a real Duress so I could hit Walkers too, but that’s a fruitless thing to say. The card would be super broken.
On Burn, their creatures, and K-Command: As I stated, I feel strongly that we have plenty of ways to deal with their critters. My opponent said the same thing. He boarded in Ensaring Bridge and explained that since he couldn’t provide a fast enough clock by swinging with creatures, he had to rely on inevitability and play the longer game. That made a lot of sense to me. The problem for him though is that K-Command is a ******* blowout in this MU no matter which way you slice it. Instead of blowing up a creature and making him discard, I just blew up his Bridge and made him discard. I would really like the third K-Command in the MB and had originally intended on putting it in there, but I think (I’m not certain) that’s being greedy in regard to the curve. Adding the second Maelstrom Pulse (which I believe is right for me right now) booked up that three-drop slot.
I think the 3/2 split of IoK and TS is perfect right now. 4/2 would be cool but there’s nothing to cut. 4/2 seems perfect in a lower curve, 24 land build like the one previously proposed though.
The third Scooze has to be right. I think it’s a mistake not to have it. I didn’t want it in there because I didn’t want to draw multiples (as has been discussed) and I wanted room for one more removal spell, but I’m convinced that was just greed on my part. It’s just too good when it’s good, and it shores up a lot of MU’s we wouldn’t have a chance against game-one otherwise. It’s a good cascade, it’s an easy pitch to Lili if you have multiples, it mitigates bad Bobs. I just feel strongly that playing two and hoping you get one when you need it is greedy.
I didn’t get to activate Grim Lavamancer but I was always happy to see it when it showed up in my hand, and two different opponents were quick to remove it when I played it, which means less available removal for my other applicable creatures. A lot of times he's a must answer, and at one cmc chances are your opponent is probably spending more mana to get rid of him than you did to play him. I don’t like cutting a bolt for Lavaman but it’s the only way I saw to do it. They do fill similar roles sometimes, though each one of them can be far superior to the other in certain circumstances. He’ll definitely be staying in the MB for now. I used to run one MB along with two Olivia Voldaren back in the day. That was a very nasty setup against Pod and other creature decks.
I don’t like all the one-ofs in my removal suite, but I can’t imagine cutting a ANY of them. I think cutting Abrupt Decay completely is wrong. It’s necessary against the Mirror and we need it for Blood Moon, Azcanta, etc. I’m not going below one.
I regard to the Infect MU, I’m not going to have much to offer that hasn’t already been said. Save your Bolts, Pushes, and Terminates for Inkmoth Nexus if you can. The manland is our biggest problem. Ancient Grudge is a great card out of the board for Spellskite and Inkmoth. Collective Brutality is fantastic. Bluffing can be extremely important!!! It could very potentially buy you an extra turn if they slow roll their pumps so as to not get blown out by removal you may not even have. Leaving the right mana up and implying that you have it can be enough. I sided out two BBE because I’m seldom going to be in a position to cast her unless I’ve already essentially won the game. I prefer Grudge over Fulminator for Inkmoth.
The Infect matchup is very complicated and you will generally lose to it a bunch before you start winning. It punishes mistakes almost instantly, and that punishment will usually cost you the game. The most important thing is patience. When Infect was really popular, midrange/control players typically lost to it because they were too hasty with their kill spells.
I agree and I would even say that is true in a more general way. Removal is quite present in Jund but it doesnt mean we should shot every creature on sight. Sometimes we need to safe removal for certain threats.
Need some advice against infect. I know it's supposed to be favourable for us but I keep running into trouble against it. I've lost to it the last two times I faced it and at this point I find the control matchups much easier and beatable.
I know the adage about killing infect creatures at their end of turn and I adhere to it. Some questions:
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
- Opponent has 2 cards in hand.
- He had already used 1 mutagenic growth earlier in the game.
After tanking for a bit I made the gamble of casting Kommand to hit both Inkmoths, reasoning that he could only beat me if both his cards left in hand were Mutagenic growths. Of course, he responds with Mutagenic Growth on the one which I pointed 2 dmg at, I respond with activating Lavamancer, and he responds with another Mutagenic Growth. I die.
On hindsight I was probably too greedy and should have gone to 9 infect, but I was feeling like I had to stabilize the board ASAP as I had no threat to clock him, while he had the third Inkmoth which the LOTV in my hand cannot deal with.
Give me some advice guys. Feeling super bummed out.
In my experience against infect i usually play more reactive to the plays they make. A few infect counters here and there do build up, but is not something to overly worry about as long as you have chump blockers and removal. A great tactic is using removal on your turn instead as it forces them to use pump spells they could of used to deal infect dmg to save the creature instead via buffs and hexproof. This usually means you get only a few infect counters a turn vs a huge burst which is a win in my book. I personally side out LotV in favor of Fulminator as they typical only sac noble. Speaking of noble dont be the guy who lost to the player who pumped one up due to bob lowering the life total low enough. CB sounds interesting in theory as it's possible to -2/-2 a creature and take a pump spell, but i have not tried it. If you just don't want to deal with the matchup period night of souls betrayal cripples them badly while hurting quite a few other decks.
The longer someone has been playing infect or in general the more likely they will do chip damage to you till they see an opening now that probes gone. If it's a relatively newer player they usually jump on the turn 2-3 kill plan with quite some regular consistency (player not the deck) which if you can kill the creature will usually let you take over due to lack of cards/back up plan. Also last time infect was played at my lgs was before the BBE and Jace unbanning so it could be correct to drop BBE instead of LotV. Typically i don't race them as they run out of steam faster then you. Once there out of creatures always keep removal up in case and just play a creature and start beating them down.
TLDR: Kill creatures on your turn not there's as making them waste spells to save the creature makes them lose pump effects on the combat step for there turn. Leave removal up at all times till you see a opening for when you can play a creature of your own safely.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
So dominaria leaked. This card piqued my interest.
Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
It helps to combat tron but hampers our ability to double spell and get under it. thoughts? Will this replace Fulminators? That second ability is really troubling me, card will be perfect if it wasn't there.
EDIT: the second ability hoses storm, not that we struggle with the matchup. Unfortunately Titanshift laughs at this card, and will roflstomp us even harder if we replace fulminators with this.
We would also have to swap out Twilight Mire... probably an extra fetch? BBE's cascade will cost 1 as well
Titanshift wants to suspend Search for Tomorrow, and it plays Summoner's Pact. They also like two ramp spells on T3 a lot. Damping Sphere might not be a silver bullet against them, but it probably isn't terrible either. Seems pretty bad for Bloodbraid, though.
Steel Leaf Champion
GGG
Creature — Elf Knight
5/4
Steel Leaf Champion can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less.
That’s some major power-creep there. Pretty scary to think about a CoCo or BBE (Jund Elves is starting to pick up some steam) hitting one of these. An Elvish Woolly Thoctar that can’t be blocked by Lingering Souls, etc. Seems pretty gud.
Edit: I’m not suggesting we run this, btw. Just pointing it out. The tribe makes it scary. That’s a fat elf.
You can't cascade into it, I wouldn't run Damnation right now.
Its not the only factor if you want to run a card, its only a bonus if it is cascadable. For example if bogles continues to be a thing, I willl 100 % run EE in my board, regardless of nonbos with BBE.
So dominaria leaked. This card piqued my interest.
Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
It helps to combat tron but hampers our ability to double spell and get under it. thoughts? Will this replace Fulminators? That second ability is really troubling me, card will be perfect if it wasn't there.
EDIT: the second ability hoses storm, not that we struggle with the matchup. Unfortunately Titanshift laughs at this card, and will roflstomp us even harder if we replace fulminators with this.
We would also have to swap out Twilight Mire... probably an extra fetch? BBE's cascade will cost 1 as well
This is exactly what I wanted Blood Sun does. The second part is kinda bad for ourselves I guess, Twilight Mire is a real thing and I dont want to excahge the card. But Its a great anti Tron card, while, not having to run BM and screwing ourselves. It also comes down turn 2, which is super relevant.
Nonetheless, it might be that simply due to the existance of that card, Tron will be less represented in the meta, which leads to the fact that we wont have to dedicate all that much to it. Maybe 1 only copy of the sphere.
Hi! Great discussions going on here. I haven't posted in years, but back in 2013 I had written the Abzan/BGw primer before passing it on to Mastodon. I'm a long-time BGx player; I started with Jund just after the BBE banning, and switched to BGw when the power of Souls became evident to me. Modern Jund has always been my favourite deck in Magic, and I'm glad that I finally have an excuse to not play Lingering Souls!
I have been been consuming every bit of information I can find about the deck, and I finally feel comfortable sharing my thoughts and experiences with the deck since the unbannings. Please don't take anything I'm saying as gospel; I've done my best to describe my rationale, and I leave it to you to decide what you think
6 discard (4 IOK/2 TS): Turn 1 discard into Goyf/Bob is the reason to play BGx, and I'll almost always keep a hand with the one-two punch in the dark vs an unknown opponent, even if the rest of the hand is 5 lands. 4x IOK is a lock for me as the life loss is incredibly relevant from Thoughtseize, and I think this is a much more significant factor than missing with IOK. Playing 3x Thoughtseize main is a very small hedge against matchups like Tron and Valakut, but will cost you very dearly against the plethora of aggressive decks that are otherwise winnable matchups. Our margins against the aggro decks are very thin, and the life loss from Thoughtseize will cost you many close games, whereas I don't believe the additional Thoughtseize in the maindeck will meaningfully change the already bad big mana matchups.
6 one-mana removal (4 Bolt/2 Push): Tempo-positive plays are how Jund survives against faster decks until its sources of CA and card quality can take over the game. One-mana removal is at a premium and is much more valuable than anything that costs 2+ mana. However, due to the varied nature of threats, some number of more expensive removal spells are required to round out the suite.
Bolts become significantly better the more copies you play; it becomes a more reliable plan B (like the pun?). It is also the best removal spell to cascade into on an empty board. I am playing 4.
Fatal Push: The second best removal spell in the deck. I can't fathom playing less than 2, and I'd sooner trim on copies of the more expensive removal spells to fit them in.
Regarding 12 one-mana spells: playing so many one-mana spells ensures double-spell turns happen earlier and more consistently, as well as filling out the curve when the manabase develops awkwardly (2+ tapped lands in the first 4 turns). In other words, it improves the consistency of the deck. On the flipside, in G1 many of these spells can be a liability when you cascade into them off BBE and they have no targets. I acknowledge this argument, but I am generally just happy in G1 to be able to cast BBE; usually this is the stage of the game Jund has stabilized and begins to turn the corner. In these situations, I am not terribly concerned about what I get off the cascade, as I am likely to be in a decent position already. More importantly, the one-mana spells ensure that we survive until the stage of the game that we can worry about what BBE will cascade into. This also ceases to be an issue in postboard games.
Abrupt Decay: I don't like Abrupt Decay right now. It's most often worse than a 1-mana removal spell, equal to or worse than Terminate, and more narrow than Pulse. I view 1x Pulse in the maindeck as mandatory, but where most people play 1x Decay, I am happy to dedicate that slot to a second Pulse. While it is the clunkier spell, I am never unhappy to see it in my opening hand. I cannot say the same about Decay. Two quick sidenotes: having 2x Pulse is great in matchups like Storm, where you want a good answer for Empty without having to run awkward sideboard cards like Golgari Charm. Additionally, the 2-for-1 potential is definitely there, and playing 2x Pulse, it comes up enough that I consider it to be a real benefit.
2 Scooze: I have always felt that the correct number of Scooze is 2.5. I always played 3 in previous Jund and Abzan builds, and it's often a card that is either amazing, or it just doesn't do a lot and I'm annoyed to draw the first copy (much less the second). I have been on 2 copies since the unbanning of BBE and I seem to draw it more or less when I want it, as it is very much a late-game card. As such, I am mostly satisfied with running just 2, though I still think the correct number is 2.5 copies.
0 Liliana, the Last Hope: I think she is very good, albeit very matchup dependent. If I were to move my sideboard copy to the main, it would likely in the place of the second Pulse, but I currently value the removal spell higher. This is the card I am most interested in moving into the mainboard, but I can't seem to find a satisfactory way of doing so without disrupting the careful balance of the rest of the deck. I'd like to reiterate that she is very matchup dependent, which is my main issue with her; I would like my 60-card deck to be very consistent, with as few dead cards as possible in a given matchup. I view Terminate as a necessary evil. Not so much Liliana, the Last Hope.
24 lands (3 Raging Ravine): I like this configuration. I have been playing 24 land BGx decks for many years, and historically, I have felt that I flood more than screw. 24 feels just right for this deck. This is especially the case because of the 12 one-mana spells I'm playing. Playing 24 lands means that I keep more land-heavy hands, but truth be told, playing 25 lands has a very small effect on how often you flood or screw. The real reason I would play 25 lands is to play Treetop Village. That card is nothing short of fantastic. However, I am not prepared to cut any spells for it at this time. I also want 3 Ravines before I add any Treetops, as I find that the closing power of Ravine very important (in addition to the mana-fixing) compared to the efficiency of the latter.
Finally, I want to talk about building the deck around BBE; I think it is a trap. Bloodbraid Elf is Jund's best way to pull ahead/turn the corner, but you have to be close to parity for BBE to have a meaningful impact. I will use Jace, the Mind Sculptor as a parallel-- JtMS is an incredibly powerful card, but even so, you need to be close to parity for it to take over the game. BBE when you are behind is still good, and while having better cascade targets improves your ability to play from behind, I think it can sabotage how the deck functions as a whole. I want my Jund deck to consistently have the ability to dismantle what my opponent is doing so I can stabilize, and I value this consistency over having more raw power in my cascades. Furthermore, the deck already has so many fantastic hits that I don't feel the deck lacking any power as it is. This philosophy explains why I'm playing 2x Pulse instead of 1x Pulse and 1x LtLH.
Thank you to everyone for their fantastic and thoughtful posts in this thread. You are the reason I felt inspired to write this at all.
Cheers!
Thank you EctoMark, I was thinking I'm the only one who play a "traditionnal" Jund list with some minors changes for BEE whereas every pro players and other players follow the Reid Duke's list.
I'm a really big fan of Reid Duke, I like how he plays, how he thinks and the fact he always plays BGx.
But sometimes, he made some weird choices which work for him but not for the rest of human beings (remember when he played Bonfire of the damned in his SB 2 years ago ?)
The actual Jund list I'm currently playing is this one :
I want to continue to play Jund as the deck is : disruption, removals and threats.
T1 discard
T2 Tarmogoyf / Dark confidant
T3 Liliana / removal
I find the actual lists too much build around BBE : being agressive, cut some discard and removals in case of Cascade hits them without target
But we are playing a deck builds for attrition war, not agressive one.
If Bogles becomes popular, in addition of 2 Maelstrom Pulse and Golgari Charm, I would recommend to play Oath of Liliana, which doesn't target your opponent to make him sacrifice a creature.
I've been playing Rubins list on mtgo, it's not bad!
I did lose a super close game to a grixis control player who tuned the deck way, way too much to beat grindy decks. Even with 2x AV's go off on game 3, he squeaked by, and that was with me not seeing a single BBE at all with half my deck drawn. If Grixis decks start playing AV I think they'll sacrifice a lot. He decided to play more like a jund deck with little to no counters. I can't be upset about that loss because I don't think it's a realistic deck to do well.
I think regulating Last Hope to the sideboard has been good in testing. I think we all get a little too results oriented when we remember the times how much of a blow out she was on a game 1.
Still don't know if I like Rubins or Altecs list more.
While I can see the efficiency of Rubin's list having 12 1-drops, it looks very soft to Burn making it unplayable in my local meta. Have you run into Burn with his list yet?
Also, I'm beginning to feel the meta shift in terms of hate against us. Tonight I played a GW Hatebears deck which dropped 3 maindeck Mirran Crusaders on me in game 1. I bolted 2, but the third carried him across the finish line.
So I will be heading to the SCG Open this weekend and might run the list you both are testing. I need some help with the sideboard guide though. There's a lot of matches I've never played against, but still want to have a general idea what to do vs them.
Here is the 75 for anyone else that wants to chime in as well..
I was first running 25 lands and 3 scooze with 0 pushes, but got inspired by EctoMark's list and settled with this.
I flooded yesterday into a 1-3 result in another event, today manabase worked like a charm. I think that no one in the world can currently convince me to run 25 lands in this deck.
Basic mountain and 2 Dreadbores are for UW/UR/UWR/Grixis control decks which I see a lot my meta but dodged them all tonight.
PEOPLE: play Treetop Village, the Ape is bonkers! Cheap activation allows you to leave up mana for removal and the 3/3 body with a trample is no joke.
My games:
Round 1 - 2-0 vs ETron
OUT: 2 IoK, 4 bolt
IN: 3 Fulminator, Pulse, Thrun, Grudge
I am not 100% sure if I actually left all the IoKs into the deck after SBing, because IoK won me the G1 when I discarded his Map with it. G2 he had T3 tron into Smasher which I made him sack. That was his only tentacle monster before I broke his tron with Fulminator and rode to victory.
Round 3 - 2-1 vs Soulflayer combo
G1 opponent has lethal Soulflayer on board. My only out is to cast BBE and flip a Lili, which happens.
I could have probably won this round within 2 games put I punt hard in G2, by playing out Liliana into an empty table. I did not realize that he can get haste for the Soulflayer and lost to that punt. Well, it was the first time I ever saw this deck..
OUT: 2 Kommand, 2 bolt
IN: 2 spellbomb, Pulse, Thrun
Round 4 - 2-0 vs Ponza
I offered ID to him because he absolutely crushed me with T2 and T3 Blood Moon yesterday, but he declines the offer..
This deck indeed loses much to itself. G1 he mulled to 5, his BBE cascaded into Utopia Sprawl etc.. G2 was extremely close game where he casted 2 Thundermaw Hellkites and a Inferno Titan. I always have either Lili sack, Pulse or Dreadbore in hand when needed.
OUT: 2 Kommand, 2 Ooze
IN: Pulse, Seal of Primordium, 2 CB
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grim Lavamancer
Planeswalkers(4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instants(8)
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Terminate
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Fatal Push
Sorceries(7)
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Raging Ravine
2x Treetop Village
1x Twilight Mire
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Choke
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
1x Golgari Charm
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I like the list a lot. I think I’m going to take both Kitchen Finks out and replace one with another Collective Brutality. Not sure yet what I’d use the other freed slot for. I feel strongly that we have Burn’s creatures on lock and don’t need another blocker in Finks. I think Brutality is better there, and I think I’d rather have a 3/0 “split” than a 2/1 split. Brutality is also really nice against combo (Infect, Scapeshift, Storm, Grishoalbrand, etc.) and is an extra targeted discard against Control. I wish its “Duress” mode was a real Duress so I could hit Walkers too, but that’s a fruitless thing to say. The card would be super broken.
On Burn, their creatures, and K-Command: As I stated, I feel strongly that we have plenty of ways to deal with their critters. My opponent said the same thing. He boarded in Ensaring Bridge and explained that since he couldn’t provide a fast enough clock by swinging with creatures, he had to rely on inevitability and play the longer game. That made a lot of sense to me. The problem for him though is that K-Command is a ******* blowout in this MU no matter which way you slice it. Instead of blowing up a creature and making him discard, I just blew up his Bridge and made him discard. I would really like the third K-Command in the MB and had originally intended on putting it in there, but I think (I’m not certain) that’s being greedy in regard to the curve. Adding the second Maelstrom Pulse (which I believe is right for me right now) booked up that three-drop slot.
I think the 3/2 split of IoK and TS is perfect right now. 4/2 would be cool but there’s nothing to cut. 4/2 seems perfect in a lower curve, 24 land build like the one previously proposed though.
The third Scooze has to be right. I think it’s a mistake not to have it. I didn’t want it in there because I didn’t want to draw multiples (as has been discussed) and I wanted room for one more removal spell, but I’m convinced that was just greed on my part. It’s just too good when it’s good, and it shores up a lot of MU’s we wouldn’t have a chance against game-one otherwise. It’s a good cascade, it’s an easy pitch to Lili if you have multiples, it mitigates bad Bobs. I just feel strongly that playing two and hoping you get one when you need it is greedy.
I didn’t get to activate Grim Lavamancer but I was always happy to see it when it showed up in my hand, and two different opponents were quick to remove it when I played it, which means less available removal for my other applicable creatures. A lot of times he's a must answer, and at one cmc chances are your opponent is probably spending more mana to get rid of him than you did to play him. I don’t like cutting a bolt for Lavaman but it’s the only way I saw to do it. They do fill similar roles sometimes, though each one of them can be far superior to the other in certain circumstances. He’ll definitely be staying in the MB for now. I used to run one MB along with two Olivia Voldaren back in the day. That was a very nasty setup against Pod and other creature decks.
I don’t like all the one-ofs in my removal suite, but I can’t imagine cutting a ANY of them. I think cutting Abrupt Decay completely is wrong. It’s necessary against the Mirror and we need it for Blood Moon, Azcanta, etc. I’m not going below one.
I regard to the Infect MU, I’m not going to have much to offer that hasn’t already been said. Save your Bolts, Pushes, and Terminates for Inkmoth Nexus if you can. The manland is our biggest problem. Ancient Grudge is a great card out of the board for Spellskite and Inkmoth. Collective Brutality is fantastic. Bluffing can be extremely important!!! It could very potentially buy you an extra turn if they slow roll their pumps so as to not get blown out by removal you may not even have. Leaving the right mana up and implying that you have it can be enough. I sided out two BBE because I’m seldom going to be in a position to cast her unless I’ve already essentially won the game. I prefer Grudge over Fulminator for Inkmoth.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I agree and I would even say that is true in a more general way. Removal is quite present in Jund but it doesnt mean we should shot every creature on sight. Sometimes we need to safe removal for certain threats.
What are your main issues where you are undecided yet?
You can't cascade into it, I wouldn't run Damnation right now.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
In my experience against infect i usually play more reactive to the plays they make. A few infect counters here and there do build up, but is not something to overly worry about as long as you have chump blockers and removal. A great tactic is using removal on your turn instead as it forces them to use pump spells they could of used to deal infect dmg to save the creature instead via buffs and hexproof. This usually means you get only a few infect counters a turn vs a huge burst which is a win in my book. I personally side out LotV in favor of Fulminator as they typical only sac noble. Speaking of noble dont be the guy who lost to the player who pumped one up due to bob lowering the life total low enough. CB sounds interesting in theory as it's possible to -2/-2 a creature and take a pump spell, but i have not tried it. If you just don't want to deal with the matchup period night of souls betrayal cripples them badly while hurting quite a few other decks.
The longer someone has been playing infect or in general the more likely they will do chip damage to you till they see an opening now that probes gone. If it's a relatively newer player they usually jump on the turn 2-3 kill plan with quite some regular consistency (player not the deck) which if you can kill the creature will usually let you take over due to lack of cards/back up plan. Also last time infect was played at my lgs was before the BBE and Jace unbanning so it could be correct to drop BBE instead of LotV. Typically i don't race them as they run out of steam faster then you. Once there out of creatures always keep removal up in case and just play a creature and start beating them down.
TLDR: Kill creatures on your turn not there's as making them waste spells to save the creature makes them lose pump effects on the combat step for there turn. Leave removal up at all times till you see a opening for when you can play a creature of your own safely.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
It helps to combat tron but hampers our ability to double spell and get under it. thoughts? Will this replace Fulminators? That second ability is really troubling me, card will be perfect if it wasn't there.
EDIT: the second ability hoses storm, not that we struggle with the matchup. Unfortunately Titanshift laughs at this card, and will roflstomp us even harder if we replace fulminators with this.
We would also have to swap out Twilight Mire... probably an extra fetch? BBE's cascade will cost 1 as well
Steel Leaf Champion
GGG
Creature — Elf Knight
5/4
Steel Leaf Champion can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less.
That’s some major power-creep there. Pretty scary to think about a CoCo or BBE (Jund Elves is starting to pick up some steam) hitting one of these. An Elvish Woolly Thoctar that can’t be blocked by Lingering Souls, etc. Seems pretty gud.
Edit: I’m not suggesting we run this, btw. Just pointing it out. The tribe makes it scary. That’s a fat elf.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Fulminators are important to dealing with Azcanta and manlands now.
I think this card will benefit Jund indirectly.
This also makes snapcaster mage worse.
However, this does also stop nonsense like Faithless looting into Hollow One.
Who knows, maybe we do use it. The design team made this with non standard formats in mind.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I am now testing EctoMarks list with 24 lands only and more 1 drops, to see how "bad" it is with BBE.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Noncreature Spells [22]
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Anger of the Gods
Its not the only factor if you want to run a card, its only a bonus if it is cascadable. For example if bogles continues to be a thing, I willl 100 % run EE in my board, regardless of nonbos with BBE.
This is exactly what I wanted Blood Sun does. The second part is kinda bad for ourselves I guess, Twilight Mire is a real thing and I dont want to excahge the card. But Its a great anti Tron card, while, not having to run BM and screwing ourselves. It also comes down turn 2, which is super relevant.
Thank you EctoMark, I was thinking I'm the only one who play a "traditionnal" Jund list with some minors changes for BEE whereas every pro players and other players follow the Reid Duke's list.
I'm a really big fan of Reid Duke, I like how he plays, how he thinks and the fact he always plays BGx.
But sometimes, he made some weird choices which work for him but not for the rest of human beings (remember when he played Bonfire of the damned in his SB 2 years ago ?)
The actual Jund list I'm currently playing is this one :
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
I want to continue to play Jund as the deck is : disruption, removals and threats.
T1 discard
T2 Tarmogoyf / Dark confidant
T3 Liliana / removal
I find the actual lists too much build around BBE : being agressive, cut some discard and removals in case of Cascade hits them without target
But we are playing a deck builds for attrition war, not agressive one.
If Bogles becomes popular, in addition of 2 Maelstrom Pulse and Golgari Charm, I would recommend to play Oath of Liliana, which doesn't target your opponent to make him sacrifice a creature.
Gus
I did lose a super close game to a grixis control player who tuned the deck way, way too much to beat grindy decks. Even with 2x AV's go off on game 3, he squeaked by, and that was with me not seeing a single BBE at all with half my deck drawn. If Grixis decks start playing AV I think they'll sacrifice a lot. He decided to play more like a jund deck with little to no counters. I can't be upset about that loss because I don't think it's a realistic deck to do well.
I think regulating Last Hope to the sideboard has been good in testing. I think we all get a little too results oriented when we remember the times how much of a blow out she was on a game 1.
Still don't know if I like Rubins or Altecs list more.
Also, I'm beginning to feel the meta shift in terms of hate against us. Tonight I played a GW Hatebears deck which dropped 3 maindeck Mirran Crusaders on me in game 1. I bolted 2, but the third carried him across the finish line.
So I will be heading to the SCG Open this weekend and might run the list you both are testing. I need some help with the sideboard guide though. There's a lot of matches I've never played against, but still want to have a general idea what to do vs them.
Here is the 75 for anyone else that wants to chime in as well..
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (10)
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
Sorceries (8)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
Bogles
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 ???
Burn
-4 Dark Confidant
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 ???
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Collective Brutality
Jund
-4 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Living End
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-4 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 ???
Ponza
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Kolaghan's Command
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Collective Brutality
Valakut
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-3 ???
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+2 Collective Brutality
Storm
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-2 Terminate
-2 ???
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Collective Brutality
UW Control
-2 Fatal Push
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Terminate (Keep 1 vs Gideon)
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks (Cut 1 vs Gideon)
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Collective Brutality
Grixis Control
-2 Fatal Push
-4 Lightning Bult
-2 Terminate
-1 ???
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Collective Brutality
Jeskai Control
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 ???
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Collective Brutality
Hollow One
-2 Bloodbraid Elf
-4 Liliana of the Veil
-1 ???
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Collective Brutality
Humans
-4 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Collective Brutality
8 Rack
- ???
+ ???
Counters Company
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-4 Inquisition of Kozilek
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Anger of the Gods
Dredge
-4 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Terminate
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Collective Brutality
Affinity
-1 Bloodbraid Elf
-4 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
+3 Fulminator Mage
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Anger of the Gods
UR Breach
-2 Fatal Push
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Terminate
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 ???
Infect
- ???
+ ???
Death and Taxes
- ???
+ ???
Ad Nauseam
- ???
+ ???
Lantern Control
- ???
+ ???
Tron
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Ancient Grudge
Eldrazi Tron
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
Grixis Death's Shadow
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 ???
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
4-5c Death's Shadow
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
RG Eldrazi
- ???
+ ???
Elves
- ???
+ ???
UB Mill
- ???
+ ???
Naya Zoo
- ???
+ ???
Grishoalbrand
- ???
+ ???
BW Planeswalker Pox
- ???
+ ???
Madcap Moon
- ???
+ ???
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (9)
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
Sorceries (9)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dreadbore
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
2 Treetop Village
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thrun, the last troll
I was first running 25 lands and 3 scooze with 0 pushes, but got inspired by EctoMark's list and settled with this.
I flooded yesterday into a 1-3 result in another event, today manabase worked like a charm. I think that no one in the world can currently convince me to run 25 lands in this deck.
Basic mountain and 2 Dreadbores are for UW/UR/UWR/Grixis control decks which I see a lot my meta but dodged them all tonight.
PEOPLE: play Treetop Village, the Ape is bonkers! Cheap activation allows you to leave up mana for removal and the 3/3 body with a trample is no joke.
My games:
Round 1 - 2-0 vs ETron
OUT: 2 IoK, 4 bolt
IN: 3 Fulminator, Pulse, Thrun, Grudge
I am not 100% sure if I actually left all the IoKs into the deck after SBing, because IoK won me the G1 when I discarded his Map with it. G2 he had T3 tron into Smasher which I made him sack. That was his only tentacle monster before I broke his tron with Fulminator and rode to victory.
Round 2 - 2-1 vs Naya Burn
OUT: 4 Bob, 2 TS
IN: 2 CB, 2 Finks, Lavamancer, Pulse
Round 3 - 2-1 vs Soulflayer combo
G1 opponent has lethal Soulflayer on board. My only out is to cast BBE and flip a Lili, which happens.
I could have probably won this round within 2 games put I punt hard in G2, by playing out Liliana into an empty table. I did not realize that he can get haste for the Soulflayer and lost to that punt. Well, it was the first time I ever saw this deck..
OUT: 2 Kommand, 2 bolt
IN: 2 spellbomb, Pulse, Thrun
Round 4 - 2-0 vs Ponza
I offered ID to him because he absolutely crushed me with T2 and T3 Blood Moon yesterday, but he declines the offer..
This deck indeed loses much to itself. G1 he mulled to 5, his BBE cascaded into Utopia Sprawl etc.. G2 was extremely close game where he casted 2 Thundermaw Hellkites and a Inferno Titan. I always have either Lili sack, Pulse or Dreadbore in hand when needed.
OUT: 2 Kommand, 2 Ooze
IN: Pulse, Seal of Primordium, 2 CB