Thank you for the kind words, it's good to be back! Regarding 24 lands with 8 3CMC spells: I don't think it is necessarily an issue. I think the more important aspect is the rest of your curve, most notably the number of 1CMC spells. Jund thrives when it's casting multiple spells a turn, and while you do need to make your land drops, you can reliably double-spell on 3 mana with 12 1-drops. For example, when I have 3 mana, I love to go 2-drop + 1-drop (removal + Goyf, discard + Bob, etc). There is so much variance in Magic that it's very hard for me to notice the difference between 7 and 8 3CMC cards-- not to say that there isn't. It's just a much smaller factor in my experience than the number of 1-drops in the deck.
Edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't play 25 lands-- only that I have found the number of 1CMC spells in the deck to be a larger factor in considering the land count than 7 vs 8 3CMC cards.
It varied from list-to-list. Lists generally played either 4 Ravine and 2 4-drops or 3 Ravine and 3 4-drops. The difference between 2 and 3 4-drops usually came down to how much of the mirror and Twin (we basically played the same thing in 2015) you were expecting. 4 3-drops was fairly common towards the end of 2015, and we really only started shaving on them in 2016 because Dredge and Infect were so prevalent and none of the 4-drops are great against them, though Kalitas does get a shout-out for the Dredge matchup. Side note, he is by far my favorite 4-drop after BBE.
So I played at my local today, didn't go well. Don't think it was bad play or a bad build, just some unfortunate circumstances. I played a 24 land list, I felt like 24 was okay. I mulled a few times from 1 land hands, sometimes from bad hands, sometimes from 5 lands. I flooded sometimes and missed lands as well, which is all to say that I don't think 24 lands was inherently an issue.
Round 1 vs Jund
Game 1 I mull to 6 and keep Inquisition, Bolt, Lili, and three lands (blind). I proceed to not draw a single creature all game and eventually BBE + Bob overrun me from too much card advantage. Can't win if he gets ahead and I draw zero creatures.
Game 2 I mull to 6 again and flood out. Game ended with my opponent having 4 cards in hand and 4 lands in play, I had 10 lands in play. I ended up stalling the game quite a bit from a couple Lili topdecks, but eventually too many topdecked lands lost me the game.
Can't really feel bad, the deck just didn't play well for me there.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Lantern
Lantern is a deck that my buddy has been playing for a long time, more than two years probably. Anyway, game 1 I mulled to 6 and he just drew the right set of cards and my hand wasn't fast enough. I actually kept a 1 land hand on the play and missed on the second land for a couple of turns. Eventually he landed Bridge and after he milled all four of my answers (2x K Command, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse) with Pithing Needle naming Lili, I just conceded.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept a hand that would lose to Leyline, which of course he had and I lost to. We still played it out but I scooped after he had enough mill rocks and I had lost enough answers.
Not particularly sure if I should consider mixing my board to play more answers to this deck, knowing that it's going to be there every week as well as at least a couple Affinity. Maybe a third Grudge or Shatterstorm might not be the worst. I also think maybe Abrupt Decay/Pulse over the Terminate might be good as well.
Record: 0-2
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron
Game 1 I steamroll him after he misses on Tron. Double Mine double Plant, and I just had a field day pushing him really low. He played Conduit of Ruin and searched up an Endbringer and then ended up scooping the next turn after I went BBE into removal.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and Inquisitioned my opponent and saw no cards I could take, notably seeing an All Is Dust and the second Tron land. Of course, Map off the top which meant he had turn 4 All Is Dust that I had to awkwardly play around. After he hit my Liliana, the Last Hope + Goyf, I played another Goyf. He turn 6 Ulamog'd me and that basically ended the game there.
Game 3 I mulled to 6 and had an early Fulminator Mage to keep him off Tron but he had multiple Temples that let him slam multiple Endbringers. I actually Thoughtseize and took Reality Smasher instead (no cards in my hand) thinking I could draw removal for Endbringer but not Smasher but just never drew removal. We bricked for a while on the board while I drew nothing particular until he found his Ulamog and killed me when he blew up my only blockers.
Record: 0-3
I don't particularly feel like I played poorly or the deck was poorly positioned or anything, just the games didn't go well for me. In practice games before the tournament they weren't close and I was crushing, I just got unlucky in the event. For what it's worth, I mulled on average 2 times per round, which I think is statistically an anomaly. I got flooded about as often as I got screwed, so I really don't think 24 vs 25 lands makes enough of a difference that the outcomes would have changed.
Glad to see other people wanting to move LtLH to the sideboard. She's too polarizing to be in the mainboard for me, great in some matchups, bad in others.
I really want a second Fatal Push, think I might trim my Abrupt Decay. Decay really hasn't been very impressive. Although a second Pulse would be nice as well.
Still can't decide between 24 vs 25 lands.
I agree with Ecto's point about BBE. She's a huge addition to the deck but we shouldn't warp the deck totally around her. We still need to make sure we're able to survive and keep pace until we get to the point where we can actually cast her. Four turns is a lot in Modern, trimming cards like Push and Discard can matter a lot in the early game.
Also Spsiegel1987 you were right about the Jund FB groups, I rolled my eyes many of times reading through them.
This is my list that i have been running currently. I have just over 100 matches online with a pretty even split between friendly and comp leagues. I have just over a 60% win percentage in that time and i have tried both 24 and 25 land builds. I know it is pretty greedy, running 4 man lands but i value them a lot since they can be an alternative to just playing BBE onto an empty board and they have a ton of useful applications. Could see going down to 3 but i think a 2/1 split bw ravine and village is the way to go.
The sb is catered a bit for the online meta since there has been an uptick in dredge, hollow one, company style decks that are packing voice of resurgence, just a lot more aggro in general. still a bit unsure bw anger and flaying tendrils. Tendrils is easier to cast and gets by stuff like forge tender and selfless spirit as well as dealing with etched champion but the extra point of damage from anger is excellent against zoo, humans, and dredge. EE is underrated and is not even entirely irrelevant if you hit off of BBE against token strategies. Most of the other cards like golgari charm are equally unexciting off of a cascade anyways. Nobody plays around sweepers out of jund yet and many decks plan to establish a dominant board position which lead to some pretty big blowouts.
I am fan of surgical because it gives us a potentially game winning plan b for decks like valakut, tron, griselbrand, and decks that are reliant on a specific card to win. I know it is a bit inefficient and can have a pretty low floor but i think it has a higher celing than a card like spellbomb and thats something i value out of the board. Also the ability to permanently remove amalgams or go discard into extracting a living end gives us access to potentially game winning sequences in otherwise woefully hopeless matchups.
I dont like the addition of another 4 drop haymaker since there are either too narrow or inefficient. Yes theyre powerful and they can steal games but there are enough different matchups i want to improve and there are more efficient options.
Thank you for the kind words, it's good to be back! Regarding 24 lands with 8 3CMC spells: I don't think it is necessarily an issue. I think the more important aspect is the rest of your curve, most notably the number of 1CMC spells. Jund thrives when it's casting multiple spells a turn, and while you do need to make your land drops, you can reliably double-spell on 3 mana with 12 1-drops. For example, when I have 3 mana, I love to go 2-drop + 1-drop (removal + Goyf, discard + Bob, etc). There is so much variance in Magic that it's very hard for me to notice the difference between 7 and 8 3CMC cards-- not to say that there isn't. It's just a much smaller factor in my experience than the number of 1-drops in the deck.
Edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't play 25 lands-- only that I have found the number of 1CMC spells in the deck to be a larger factor in considering the land count than 7 vs 8 3CMC cards.
I feel the same way. I want to pick up the 24 land build again and try it out myself, to see how I like it.
4-0’d a tournament tonight at my LGS. The deck was running like a top.
Destroyed Infect round one.
Beat Burn in two. Both games were close (it’s Burn, it’s always going to be close) but the MU felt VERY good. We have so much removal their creatures are almost a non-factor. Almost. K-Command is great here. Scooze is da real MVP.
Destroyed Tribal Flames 5c Death Shadow (not sure what to call it) in the third round. Tore their hand and field apart, finished it off with BBE both games.
Beat Grishoalbrand in three for the fourth and final round. Holy s*** that deck is consistent and quick. I made the mistake of not mulliganing aggressively enough in game one so my OP went off after my second turn and Big Bobo threw a bunch of lands at me. Game two I mulliganed to five and found a Spellbomb. This bought me some time and I managed to get a clock and some timely disruption. Game three I played super tight and a Scooze got me there. I think Grishoalbrand is cool as s***. Not only is it a solid deck, but it uses Arcane spells!! And can splice them!! What other deck does that? Anyway, I’m happy it’s in my meta even though it’s nerve wracking to play against.
I couldn’t be happier with my deck right now. I’ve gotten a lot better as a pilot too. It was a good night. Sorry my report wasn’t more detailed but I’m tired and no one really cares about a little four-round, Wednesday night tournament anyway.
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I messed around with Ecto's list tonight, did pretty well. Only played the deck on mtgo practice rooms. Beat naya zoo, burn, jeskai tempo aggro, merfolk, and a few things I don't remember.
I lost to a maindeck boggle leyline deck. The game was over within minutes.
I despise strategies like this, and I can't wait until players do this in a large field.
I also couldn't beat some janky blue steel deck that had a bunch of tweeks to it, lost twice. Deck was garbage so I wasn't too concerned that it beat Jund twice, it's not a real deck and it wouldn't make it past early rounds.
Deck was good, enough that I certainly would keep playing it. I did find myself stuck on lands a little, but I'm sure at 25 mtgo would have done the same.
Need some advice against infect. I know it's supposed to be favourable for us but I keep running into trouble against it. I've lost to it the last two times I faced it and at this point I find the control matchups much easier and beatable.
I know the adage about killing infect creatures at their end of turn and I adhere to it. Some questions:
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
- Opponent has 2 cards in hand.
- He had already used 1 mutagenic growth earlier in the game.
After tanking for a bit I made the gamble of casting Kommand to hit both Inkmoths, reasoning that he could only beat me if both his cards left in hand were Mutagenic growths. Of course, he responds with Mutagenic Growth on the one which I pointed 2 dmg at, I respond with activating Lavamancer, and he responds with another Mutagenic Growth. I die.
On hindsight I was probably too greedy and should have gone to 9 infect, but I was feeling like I had to stabilize the board ASAP as I had no threat to clock him, while he had the third Inkmoth which the LOTV in my hand cannot deal with.
Give me some advice guys. Feeling super bummed out.
1. Kill their creatures on either your turn or at the end of their turn.
2. I would bring in probably 2 Fulminators, Grudge is also not too bad because you can kill their manland (which we struggle the most) and Spellskites.
3. Depends on how many removal spells you play. Without Push the matchup is harder, no doubt, but Jund was favoured vs Infect before the printing of Push already. A higher curve with 4 4-drops is obviously not ideal against aggressive decks like Infect. I can see myself boarding out BBE in that matchup. Again, board in everything that can interact with their hand or board. Brutality is an allstar against Infect.
4. Given that he is tapped out I don't think you made a heavy mistake in that scenario. You could have killed both his creatures without taking damage even with your op having 1 Mutagenic in hand, so I don't think this was too greedy. The chances of him having two of them were very slim and sometimes you must take a risk in magic.
Here is what I would have probably done: Op attackes with 2 creatures, is tapped out and has no cards in hand. I say no blocks, damage resolves and I go to 9 Infect. Post combat I activate Lavamancer to kill 1 of his manlands, cast K-command to Shatter the other one and let him discard. He now has 1 card in hand and 1 remaining manland. On my next turn I cast Lili and activate +1. He is hellbent with us still being able to activate Lavamancer's ability. If op draws a pump spell he got us, but I don't see a line how we could survive if he draws another pump spell.
What's the best line depends on opponent's hand and 2 Mutagenic Growths are a very unlikely scenario. So this would have probably been one of the rare situations where a removal in combat made sense imo. A very difficult decision indeed and again, I don't think you made a heavy mistake.
My reasons for card selection goes much hand in hand with what EctoMark voiced. After starting out with much more clunky builds, heavy on 3 mana cards (sorcery speed much of the time as well) I came to the conclusion that being able to double spell early was very important - BBE will give me the late game power needed.
I'm quite heavy on Fatal Push as I have a very small local meta, and most decks are creature based. If it was less creature based I would probably run the 4th IoK here. I really value all the 1 drop spells in this build - and I would fit more if I could.
Some stuff to note:
I was very uncomfortable going down to 1 decay and 2 terminates, from the previous 2 and 3. The 2nd pulse in the board is both a way of trying to deal with the permanents either of these spells would previously be in charge of dealing with, and as a way of dealing with control decks. Also it doubles as a sweeper against tokens. I'm very happy with the 2nd pulse in the board, and also would never dream of maindecking it.
I have a couple of flex slots in the board that I'm currently experiementing with. The needle, lavamancer (I have so much removal already that I'm not really sure if it is needed, although it is a great card) and extraction is all cards I could see being something else. I have tried various cards in these slots. Everything from Hazoret, Anger, more brutalities, second Liliana the Last Hope and Kitchen finks are viable there.
I don't really fancy running Thrun in Jund anymore, the matchups it was supposed to be boarded in against you just don't need to shore up that much anymore, BBE does a nice job here.
I've really liked the 3 pushes main deck. There's still a ton of DS decks running around, and with my suite of removal I can deal with them quie comfortably. Also the mirror is important, where they also work overtime.
All in all I feel this deck runs very smooth - and has game against most, if not all, decks. Tron and Valakut decks are obviously still bad matchups, but now you have the chance of winning against them.
Need some advice against infect. I know it's supposed to be favourable for us but I keep running into trouble against it. I've lost to it the last two times I faced it and at this point I find the control matchups much easier and beatable.
I know the adage about killing infect creatures at their end of turn and I adhere to it. Some questions:
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
- Opponent has 2 cards in hand.
- He had already used 1 mutagenic growth earlier in the game.
After tanking for a bit I made the gamble of casting Kommand to hit both Inkmoths, reasoning that he could only beat me if both his cards left in hand were Mutagenic growths. Of course, he responds with Mutagenic Growth on the one which I pointed 2 dmg at, I respond with activating Lavamancer, and he responds with another Mutagenic Growth. I die.
On hindsight I was probably too greedy and should have gone to 9 infect, but I was feeling like I had to stabilize the board ASAP as I had no threat to clock him, while he had the third Inkmoth which the LOTV in my hand cannot deal with.
Give me some advice guys. Feeling super bummed out.
Like it was already mentioned, basically the Infect player must do the move first in order to us casting removal in combat. If we are dead by natural attack, then we have to cast removal.
1) In general, it is more of less safe to cast removal spells anytime not being in combat. In general I want to keep a removal spell for the combar when he goes for it, or at least remove creatures at sight to make them use resources to protect it or not having any infect creatures. It is a bit tough if you are facing a Inkmoth as well as Infect creature and the opponent has a bunch of cards in his/her hand. In that case, if we only have 1 removal, I would probably not kill the Infect creature right away.
2) Yes, always bring in Grudges. They are better than Decays for sure. I would cut Maelstrom Pulse too.
3) Maybe. If on 25 lands, you can shave a land and one BBE also.
4)In this special situation, you got to think about the benefit you gain for each case. If you just take it and go to 9 infect, you cannot loose this turn. However, is this the time you need to be able to win? Or doe we need to take a risk and safe some Infect points by killing them right away. There is only one scenario where you get punished for that, which unluckily happened. I would have taken the dmg if I can ensure that I won't die to the third Nexus the following turn. If I die to the Inkmoth with a topecked Pump spell anyway, I would likely take the risk.
One cool trick I always do against Infect is the Pen trick. When they attack me I immediatly grab my pen to indicate I am taking it and want to update Infect points. Sometimes opponents fall for it and think I dont have any removal and go for it. In such a case you can blow them out then.
The simple strategy is to keep the board clean - and if they have an infect creature that can attack you next turn, if possible avoid tapping out to represent removal.
You want them to not be able to cast their pump spells in combat, in fear of their creature dying in response. Let them attack, accept the damage and then in their end step, make them trade pump/protection spells for your removal.
If you slam liliana to make them sack a creature, be aware of the dryad arbor fetch.
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
I would do this only if they are too low on mana to protect their creature. If you think the exchange of spells will not change during their turn, make them use their mana at the end of their own turn, such that you can hopefully kill it during your own turn following that.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
Inkmoth is by far their best infect creature in the matchup. It doesn't die to either liliana and decay and pulse does not kill it. I always make an attempt to save the better removal spells for potential inkmoths (push and terminate, and ofc. bolt to some extent). If at all possible I want inkmoth to die the turn it gets activated.
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
If you have trimmed some of the 1 mana removal, then I'd say yes. In my opinion this matchup is just as much about having cheap interaction, as it is having enough of it. You don't want to leave them feeling that if they have 2x hexproof spells that their creature cannot die.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
This depends quite a bit on cards in hand, etc - and how the game has gone. I would not find it an unreasonable line to let him declare attacks, lava mancer one inkmoth and then in response to potential phyrexian pump spell respond with k command. If he does not respond I'd take the remaining 1 infect and k command in end step.
In this specific instance you would have been better off not doing anything - but clearly the chances of him having 2x growth are low, I like acting here.
My sideboard plan against infect (using the list I posted earlier, but with second Liliana the last hope instead of the lavamancer in the board) is something like this:
- 4 BloodBraid elf (I don't really want to tap out for BBE, we don't need a high creature density, we just need to get rid of his creatures)
- 2 Thoughtseize (I think cutting some discard is decent, they are great as long as they don't have active threats you need to deal with, but tapping mana not to kill a creature later in the game can be rough. But should have probably cut some more Lilianas instead)
- 1 Liliana of the veil (It's hard to afford tapping out for this on 3, and she's not that awesome in this matchup. I think I should have cut 2-3 of her)
+ 2 Ancient Grudge (It kills the most important creature in the matchup, twice)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Naming Inkmoth nexus)
+ 1 Pulse (It's generally a bad card in the matchup, but Shaper's Sanctuary is a card we need to get off the battlefield ASAP when we see it)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (This card might be a bit too cute, I'd more or less want to target any of his infect creature's in the GY to leave him with 8 active threaths
+ 2 Liliana the Last Hope (with this on the board on time you basicly cut them down to just having to slam you with Inkmoth)
I can see arguments to boarding in Fulminator mage here as well, and it is probably a better card than the Extraction (possibly better than the LoTV as well).
There's also lots of bluffing going on in this matchup. While I don't like trying to make active gestures (such as reaching for the pen) - I will happily sit there and pretend to be holding removal while sitting with discard, lilianas or lands in hand. Be aware that your opponent does the same.
To summarize here's the cards from them that really matter in the matchup:
Once you realise that this matchup is just as much a fight about mana, than it is about available removal spells, then this becomes quite a different matchup. You want to kill Noble Hierarch on sight turn one if you have an extra removal spell at all (possibly even if you don't) as it is +1 infect per attack and also gives your opponent much more mana than you. Obviously Dark Confidant is a key card - but only if you're able to tap out for him.
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
If you ever get a chance to kill an Infect creature without the risk of them blanking your removal, you take it. They play typically 12 Infect creatures (including Inkmoth) so you just always want to be able to kill it. This is especially true for non-Glistener Elf targets because they can't be blocked. But they really can't win without creatures so if you keep killing them, that's the plan.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
You always want to board in any card that can answer an Infect creature, so yes. Always removal, you don't need threats. They probably will have almost no removal, so like you can just win off of basically nothing. If they can never get a creature to stick they simply can't win. Grudges and Fulminators are good even if they only hit a few cards.
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
Maybe a little, but you already play a fair number of removal and cards come in. You can board out your BBEs to make room because you really just need answers. Because they have so few threats usually it's not hard to find enough removal.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
Okay let's think about this. Your opponent knows you have a Grim Lavamancer in play so he knows he's going to have to respond with something on one of the Inkmoths. So if he activates one, he has to have an answer to it. If he activates two, he's either willing to trade one Inkmoth off or has Mutagenic Growth.
Your opponent probably expects you have at least one removal in hand. You passed with four untapped lands so that's a very safe assumption. K Command is effectively two removal spells if he attacks with both only, so on average you probably have one hard removal and one soft (damage) removal. I think your opponent making that attack means he mostly likely doesn't have two answers (some sort of non-green buff/protection like Mutagenic or Apostle's Blessing) and a 1+ cmc one, so with two cards in hand he likely doesn't have Mutagenic + something. His attack does signal Mutagenic, so he very likely has Mutagenic + X.
If you take the 9 damage this turn, you're effectively going to run into the same situation next turn. Your opponent probably makes that attack regardless of what X is. I think the game goes better for him if he tries to end it earlier. You probably just can't afford to keep elongating the game, and have to just hope for the best.
If I can sum up the salient points for the infect matchup:
1) Generally, let the infect player make the first move unless their attack kills us naturally. Kill the infect creatures either at the end of their turn, or anytime out of combat when we can hope to blank or waste their protection spells (especially if they’re tapped out).
2) Save the better / unconditional removal for Inkmoth
3) Be alive to the ramifications of LOTV -2 on dryad arbor when they have a fetchland in play
4) For sideboarding:
Cards to take out / consider taking out:
- 1 land (on 25 land builds)
- Some BBE (don’t want to tap out for it most of the time)
- Maelstrom Pulse or sorcery speed removal (cannot hit inkmoth – but can hit things like Shaper’s Sanctuary, Wild Defiance postboard)
- Scooze
- Tarmogoyf (I won’t personally do this, but if there is more removal in the sideboard Goyf can go)
Cards to bring in / consider bringing in:
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 2 or 3 Fulminator Mage
- Collective Brutality
- Last Hope
- Needle
- Lavamancer
Lastly - do we want to max out on discard postboard or shave some? How about Anger of the Gods, worth bringing in?
You want to max out on your discard. Information is incredibly powerful against agro-combo decks, and with the Gitaxian Probe ban we're set up to be the only one with information in the matchup. Consider how you may have played out the double Inkmoth/K-Command/Lavamancer scenario differently if you'd known that your opponent did, in fact, have the exact cards they'd need to beat your line.
Anger can be hit or miss, I generally like it more on the play than on the draw. Infect generally sideboards into either cheap planeswalkers (Jace VP or Nissa, Voice of Zendikar) or Kitchen Finks, and Anger can do a lot to help counter the Kitchen Finks plan.
The Infect matchup is very complicated and you will generally lose to it a bunch before you start winning. It punishes mistakes almost instantly, and that punishment will usually cost you the game. The most important thing is patience. When Infect was really popular, midrange/control players typically lost to it because they were too hasty with their kill spells.
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Edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't play 25 lands-- only that I have found the number of 1CMC spells in the deck to be a larger factor in considering the land count than 7 vs 8 3CMC cards.
@EctoMark that list is absolutely beautiful.
I do like your list, and when my wife goes to bed tonight I'm gonna jam your list on MTGO.
LTLH may be the piece everyone is trying to jam into a puzzle that doesn't work.
Decays stock plummeted after Twins banning.
Round 1 vs Jund
Game 1 I mull to 6 and keep Inquisition, Bolt, Lili, and three lands (blind). I proceed to not draw a single creature all game and eventually BBE + Bob overrun me from too much card advantage. Can't win if he gets ahead and I draw zero creatures.
Game 2 I mull to 6 again and flood out. Game ended with my opponent having 4 cards in hand and 4 lands in play, I had 10 lands in play. I ended up stalling the game quite a bit from a couple Lili topdecks, but eventually too many topdecked lands lost me the game.
Can't really feel bad, the deck just didn't play well for me there.
Record: 0-1
Round 2 vs Lantern
Lantern is a deck that my buddy has been playing for a long time, more than two years probably. Anyway, game 1 I mulled to 6 and he just drew the right set of cards and my hand wasn't fast enough. I actually kept a 1 land hand on the play and missed on the second land for a couple of turns. Eventually he landed Bridge and after he milled all four of my answers (2x K Command, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse) with Pithing Needle naming Lili, I just conceded.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept a hand that would lose to Leyline, which of course he had and I lost to. We still played it out but I scooped after he had enough mill rocks and I had lost enough answers.
Not particularly sure if I should consider mixing my board to play more answers to this deck, knowing that it's going to be there every week as well as at least a couple Affinity. Maybe a third Grudge or Shatterstorm might not be the worst. I also think maybe Abrupt Decay/Pulse over the Terminate might be good as well.
Record: 0-2
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron
Game 1 I steamroll him after he misses on Tron. Double Mine double Plant, and I just had a field day pushing him really low. He played Conduit of Ruin and searched up an Endbringer and then ended up scooping the next turn after I went BBE into removal.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and Inquisitioned my opponent and saw no cards I could take, notably seeing an All Is Dust and the second Tron land. Of course, Map off the top which meant he had turn 4 All Is Dust that I had to awkwardly play around. After he hit my Liliana, the Last Hope + Goyf, I played another Goyf. He turn 6 Ulamog'd me and that basically ended the game there.
Game 3 I mulled to 6 and had an early Fulminator Mage to keep him off Tron but he had multiple Temples that let him slam multiple Endbringers. I actually Thoughtseize and took Reality Smasher instead (no cards in my hand) thinking I could draw removal for Endbringer but not Smasher but just never drew removal. We bricked for a while on the board while I drew nothing particular until he found his Ulamog and killed me when he blew up my only blockers.
Record: 0-3
I don't particularly feel like I played poorly or the deck was poorly positioned or anything, just the games didn't go well for me. In practice games before the tournament they weren't close and I was crushing, I just got unlucky in the event. For what it's worth, I mulled on average 2 times per round, which I think is statistically an anomaly. I got flooded about as often as I got screwed, so I really don't think 24 vs 25 lands makes enough of a difference that the outcomes would have changed.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I really want a second Fatal Push, think I might trim my Abrupt Decay. Decay really hasn't been very impressive. Although a second Pulse would be nice as well.
Still can't decide between 24 vs 25 lands.
I agree with Ecto's point about BBE. She's a huge addition to the deck but we shouldn't warp the deck totally around her. We still need to make sure we're able to survive and keep pace until we get to the point where we can actually cast her. Four turns is a lot in Modern, trimming cards like Push and Discard can matter a lot in the early game.
Also Spsiegel1987 you were right about the Jund FB groups, I rolled my eyes many of times reading through them.
BG/x BG
2 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping grounds
4 blackcleave cliff
1 twilight mire
2 raging ravine
2 treetop village
2 swamp
1 forest
1 mountain
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 scavenging ooze
4 bloodbraid elf
4 liliana of the veil
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 lightning bolt
2 fatal push
1 terminate
1 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
2 kolaghan's command
1 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 duress
2 collective brutality
1 dreadbore
2 kitchen finks
3 fulminator mage
1 liliana, the last hope
2 anger of the gods/flaying tendrils
This is my list that i have been running currently. I have just over 100 matches online with a pretty even split between friendly and comp leagues. I have just over a 60% win percentage in that time and i have tried both 24 and 25 land builds. I know it is pretty greedy, running 4 man lands but i value them a lot since they can be an alternative to just playing BBE onto an empty board and they have a ton of useful applications. Could see going down to 3 but i think a 2/1 split bw ravine and village is the way to go.
The sb is catered a bit for the online meta since there has been an uptick in dredge, hollow one, company style decks that are packing voice of resurgence, just a lot more aggro in general. still a bit unsure bw anger and flaying tendrils. Tendrils is easier to cast and gets by stuff like forge tender and selfless spirit as well as dealing with etched champion but the extra point of damage from anger is excellent against zoo, humans, and dredge. EE is underrated and is not even entirely irrelevant if you hit off of BBE against token strategies. Most of the other cards like golgari charm are equally unexciting off of a cascade anyways. Nobody plays around sweepers out of jund yet and many decks plan to establish a dominant board position which lead to some pretty big blowouts.
I am fan of surgical because it gives us a potentially game winning plan b for decks like valakut, tron, griselbrand, and decks that are reliant on a specific card to win. I know it is a bit inefficient and can have a pretty low floor but i think it has a higher celing than a card like spellbomb and thats something i value out of the board. Also the ability to permanently remove amalgams or go discard into extracting a living end gives us access to potentially game winning sequences in otherwise woefully hopeless matchups.
I dont like the addition of another 4 drop haymaker since there are either too narrow or inefficient. Yes theyre powerful and they can steal games but there are enough different matchups i want to improve and there are more efficient options.
I feel the same way. I want to pick up the 24 land build again and try it out myself, to see how I like it.
Destroyed Infect round one.
Beat Burn in two. Both games were close (it’s Burn, it’s always going to be close) but the MU felt VERY good. We have so much removal their creatures are almost a non-factor. Almost. K-Command is great here. Scooze is da real MVP.
Destroyed Tribal Flames 5c Death Shadow (not sure what to call it) in the third round. Tore their hand and field apart, finished it off with BBE both games.
Beat Grishoalbrand in three for the fourth and final round. Holy s*** that deck is consistent and quick. I made the mistake of not mulliganing aggressively enough in game one so my OP went off after my second turn and Big Bobo threw a bunch of lands at me. Game two I mulliganed to five and found a Spellbomb. This bought me some time and I managed to get a clock and some timely disruption. Game three I played super tight and a Scooze got me there. I think Grishoalbrand is cool as s***. Not only is it a solid deck, but it uses Arcane spells!! And can splice them!! What other deck does that? Anyway, I’m happy it’s in my meta even though it’s nerve wracking to play against.
I couldn’t be happier with my deck right now. I’ve gotten a lot better as a pilot too. It was a good night. Sorry my report wasn’t more detailed but I’m tired and no one really cares about a little four-round, Wednesday night tournament anyway.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I lost to a maindeck boggle leyline deck. The game was over within minutes.
I despise strategies like this, and I can't wait until players do this in a large field.
I also couldn't beat some janky blue steel deck that had a bunch of tweeks to it, lost twice. Deck was garbage so I wasn't too concerned that it beat Jund twice, it's not a real deck and it wouldn't make it past early rounds.
Deck was good, enough that I certainly would keep playing it. I did find myself stuck on lands a little, but I'm sure at 25 mtgo would have done the same.
I know the adage about killing infect creatures at their end of turn and I adhere to it. Some questions:
1. Should we be killing their creatures during our turn as well? It won't be the optimal efficient use of our mana, but doing this burns their protection / pump spells as well.
2. My losses are always to Inkmoth Nexus and never to his actual infect creatures which I am able to kill. Is it necessary to board aggressively v.s. Inkmoth with 3 Fulminators and 2 Grudges? What do you shave?
3. Are we weaker to infect now that we have trimmed some removal and gone up in the curve? I find myself struggling to keep pace with their deployment of creatures sometimes, especially without Bob.
4. In a specific scenario which happened to me last night - I was at 7 infect. I had 4 untapped lands, with a K Command and LOTV left in hand and a Grim Lavamancer on board. My opponent has no creatures, with 3 Inkmoths and 1 Breeding Pool. On his turn, he activates 2 Inkmoths and taps out. In this situation, would you have taken the 2 infect to go to 9, or try to kill both Inkmoths with K Command?
- Opponent has 2 cards in hand.
- He had already used 1 mutagenic growth earlier in the game.
After tanking for a bit I made the gamble of casting Kommand to hit both Inkmoths, reasoning that he could only beat me if both his cards left in hand were Mutagenic growths. Of course, he responds with Mutagenic Growth on the one which I pointed 2 dmg at, I respond with activating Lavamancer, and he responds with another Mutagenic Growth. I die.
On hindsight I was probably too greedy and should have gone to 9 infect, but I was feeling like I had to stabilize the board ASAP as I had no threat to clock him, while he had the third Inkmoth which the LOTV in my hand cannot deal with.
Give me some advice guys. Feeling super bummed out.
2. I would bring in probably 2 Fulminators, Grudge is also not too bad because you can kill their manland (which we struggle the most) and Spellskites.
3. Depends on how many removal spells you play. Without Push the matchup is harder, no doubt, but Jund was favoured vs Infect before the printing of Push already. A higher curve with 4 4-drops is obviously not ideal against aggressive decks like Infect. I can see myself boarding out BBE in that matchup. Again, board in everything that can interact with their hand or board. Brutality is an allstar against Infect.
4. Given that he is tapped out I don't think you made a heavy mistake in that scenario. You could have killed both his creatures without taking damage even with your op having 1 Mutagenic in hand, so I don't think this was too greedy. The chances of him having two of them were very slim and sometimes you must take a risk in magic.
Here is what I would have probably done: Op attackes with 2 creatures, is tapped out and has no cards in hand. I say no blocks, damage resolves and I go to 9 Infect. Post combat I activate Lavamancer to kill 1 of his manlands, cast K-command to Shatter the other one and let him discard. He now has 1 card in hand and 1 remaining manland. On my next turn I cast Lili and activate +1. He is hellbent with us still being able to activate Lavamancer's ability. If op draws a pump spell he got us, but I don't see a line how we could survive if he draws another pump spell.
What's the best line depends on opponent's hand and 2 Mutagenic Growths are a very unlikely scenario. So this would have probably been one of the rare situations where a removal in combat made sense imo. A very difficult decision indeed and again, I don't think you made a heavy mistake.
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Confidant
2 Fatal Push
1 Forest
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terminate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
Also there's a link here if that is easier to view: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/962996#paper
My reasons for card selection goes much hand in hand with what EctoMark voiced. After starting out with much more clunky builds, heavy on 3 mana cards (sorcery speed much of the time as well) I came to the conclusion that being able to double spell early was very important - BBE will give me the late game power needed.
I'm quite heavy on Fatal Push as I have a very small local meta, and most decks are creature based. If it was less creature based I would probably run the 4th IoK here. I really value all the 1 drop spells in this build - and I would fit more if I could.
Some stuff to note:
I was very uncomfortable going down to 1 decay and 2 terminates, from the previous 2 and 3. The 2nd pulse in the board is both a way of trying to deal with the permanents either of these spells would previously be in charge of dealing with, and as a way of dealing with control decks. Also it doubles as a sweeper against tokens. I'm very happy with the 2nd pulse in the board, and also would never dream of maindecking it.
I have a couple of flex slots in the board that I'm currently experiementing with. The needle, lavamancer (I have so much removal already that I'm not really sure if it is needed, although it is a great card) and extraction is all cards I could see being something else. I have tried various cards in these slots. Everything from Hazoret, Anger, more brutalities, second Liliana the Last Hope and Kitchen finks are viable there.
I don't really fancy running Thrun in Jund anymore, the matchups it was supposed to be boarded in against you just don't need to shore up that much anymore, BBE does a nice job here.
I've really liked the 3 pushes main deck. There's still a ton of DS decks running around, and with my suite of removal I can deal with them quie comfortably. Also the mirror is important, where they also work overtime.
All in all I feel this deck runs very smooth - and has game against most, if not all, decks. Tron and Valakut decks are obviously still bad matchups, but now you have the chance of winning against them.
Like it was already mentioned, basically the Infect player must do the move first in order to us casting removal in combat. If we are dead by natural attack, then we have to cast removal.
1) In general, it is more of less safe to cast removal spells anytime not being in combat. In general I want to keep a removal spell for the combar when he goes for it, or at least remove creatures at sight to make them use resources to protect it or not having any infect creatures. It is a bit tough if you are facing a Inkmoth as well as Infect creature and the opponent has a bunch of cards in his/her hand. In that case, if we only have 1 removal, I would probably not kill the Infect creature right away.
2) Yes, always bring in Grudges. They are better than Decays for sure. I would cut Maelstrom Pulse too.
3) Maybe. If on 25 lands, you can shave a land and one BBE also.
4)In this special situation, you got to think about the benefit you gain for each case. If you just take it and go to 9 infect, you cannot loose this turn. However, is this the time you need to be able to win? Or doe we need to take a risk and safe some Infect points by killing them right away. There is only one scenario where you get punished for that, which unluckily happened. I would have taken the dmg if I can ensure that I won't die to the third Nexus the following turn. If I die to the Inkmoth with a topecked Pump spell anyway, I would likely take the risk.
One cool trick I always do against Infect is the Pen trick. When they attack me I immediatly grab my pen to indicate I am taking it and want to update Infect points. Sometimes opponents fall for it and think I dont have any removal and go for it. In such a case you can blow them out then.
The simple strategy is to keep the board clean - and if they have an infect creature that can attack you next turn, if possible avoid tapping out to represent removal.
You want them to not be able to cast their pump spells in combat, in fear of their creature dying in response. Let them attack, accept the damage and then in their end step, make them trade pump/protection spells for your removal.
If you slam liliana to make them sack a creature, be aware of the dryad arbor fetch.
I would do this only if they are too low on mana to protect their creature. If you think the exchange of spells will not change during their turn, make them use their mana at the end of their own turn, such that you can hopefully kill it during your own turn following that.
Inkmoth is by far their best infect creature in the matchup. It doesn't die to either liliana and decay and pulse does not kill it. I always make an attempt to save the better removal spells for potential inkmoths (push and terminate, and ofc. bolt to some extent). If at all possible I want inkmoth to die the turn it gets activated.
If you have trimmed some of the 1 mana removal, then I'd say yes. In my opinion this matchup is just as much about having cheap interaction, as it is having enough of it. You don't want to leave them feeling that if they have 2x hexproof spells that their creature cannot die.
This depends quite a bit on cards in hand, etc - and how the game has gone. I would not find it an unreasonable line to let him declare attacks, lava mancer one inkmoth and then in response to potential phyrexian pump spell respond with k command. If he does not respond I'd take the remaining 1 infect and k command in end step.
In this specific instance you would have been better off not doing anything - but clearly the chances of him having 2x growth are low, I like acting here.
My sideboard plan against infect (using the list I posted earlier, but with second Liliana the last hope instead of the lavamancer in the board) is something like this:
- 4 BloodBraid elf (I don't really want to tap out for BBE, we don't need a high creature density, we just need to get rid of his creatures)
- 2 Thoughtseize (I think cutting some discard is decent, they are great as long as they don't have active threats you need to deal with, but tapping mana not to kill a creature later in the game can be rough. But should have probably cut some more Lilianas instead)
- 1 Liliana of the veil (It's hard to afford tapping out for this on 3, and she's not that awesome in this matchup. I think I should have cut 2-3 of her)
+ 2 Ancient Grudge (It kills the most important creature in the matchup, twice)
+ 1 Pithing Needle (Naming Inkmoth nexus)
+ 1 Pulse (It's generally a bad card in the matchup, but Shaper's Sanctuary is a card we need to get off the battlefield ASAP when we see it)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (This card might be a bit too cute, I'd more or less want to target any of his infect creature's in the GY to leave him with 8 active threaths
+ 2 Liliana the Last Hope (with this on the board on time you basicly cut them down to just having to slam you with Inkmoth)
I can see arguments to boarding in Fulminator mage here as well, and it is probably a better card than the Extraction (possibly better than the LoTV as well).
There's also lots of bluffing going on in this matchup. While I don't like trying to make active gestures (such as reaching for the pen) - I will happily sit there and pretend to be holding removal while sitting with discard, lilianas or lands in hand. Be aware that your opponent does the same.
To summarize here's the cards from them that really matter in the matchup:
1. Inkmoth Nexus
2. Pendelhaven
3. Shaper's Sanctuary
Once you realise that this matchup is just as much a fight about mana, than it is about available removal spells, then this becomes quite a different matchup. You want to kill Noble Hierarch on sight turn one if you have an extra removal spell at all (possibly even if you don't) as it is +1 infect per attack and also gives your opponent much more mana than you. Obviously Dark Confidant is a key card - but only if you're able to tap out for him.
If you ever get a chance to kill an Infect creature without the risk of them blanking your removal, you take it. They play typically 12 Infect creatures (including Inkmoth) so you just always want to be able to kill it. This is especially true for non-Glistener Elf targets because they can't be blocked. But they really can't win without creatures so if you keep killing them, that's the plan.
You always want to board in any card that can answer an Infect creature, so yes. Always removal, you don't need threats. They probably will have almost no removal, so like you can just win off of basically nothing. If they can never get a creature to stick they simply can't win. Grudges and Fulminators are good even if they only hit a few cards.
Maybe a little, but you already play a fair number of removal and cards come in. You can board out your BBEs to make room because you really just need answers. Because they have so few threats usually it's not hard to find enough removal.
Okay let's think about this. Your opponent knows you have a Grim Lavamancer in play so he knows he's going to have to respond with something on one of the Inkmoths. So if he activates one, he has to have an answer to it. If he activates two, he's either willing to trade one Inkmoth off or has Mutagenic Growth.
Your opponent probably expects you have at least one removal in hand. You passed with four untapped lands so that's a very safe assumption. K Command is effectively two removal spells if he attacks with both only, so on average you probably have one hard removal and one soft (damage) removal. I think your opponent making that attack means he mostly likely doesn't have two answers (some sort of non-green buff/protection like Mutagenic or Apostle's Blessing) and a 1+ cmc one, so with two cards in hand he likely doesn't have Mutagenic + something. His attack does signal Mutagenic, so he very likely has Mutagenic + X.
If you take the 9 damage this turn, you're effectively going to run into the same situation next turn. Your opponent probably makes that attack regardless of what X is. I think the game goes better for him if he tries to end it earlier. You probably just can't afford to keep elongating the game, and have to just hope for the best.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
If I can sum up the salient points for the infect matchup:
1) Generally, let the infect player make the first move unless their attack kills us naturally. Kill the infect creatures either at the end of their turn, or anytime out of combat when we can hope to blank or waste their protection spells (especially if they’re tapped out).
2) Save the better / unconditional removal for Inkmoth
3) Be alive to the ramifications of LOTV -2 on dryad arbor when they have a fetchland in play
4) For sideboarding:
Cards to take out / consider taking out:
- 1 land (on 25 land builds)
- Some BBE (don’t want to tap out for it most of the time)
- Maelstrom Pulse or sorcery speed removal (cannot hit inkmoth – but can hit things like Shaper’s Sanctuary, Wild Defiance postboard)
- Scooze
- Tarmogoyf (I won’t personally do this, but if there is more removal in the sideboard Goyf can go)
Cards to bring in / consider bringing in:
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 2 or 3 Fulminator Mage
- Collective Brutality
- Last Hope
- Needle
- Lavamancer
Lastly - do we want to max out on discard postboard or shave some? How about Anger of the Gods, worth bringing in?
Anger can be hit or miss, I generally like it more on the play than on the draw. Infect generally sideboards into either cheap planeswalkers (Jace VP or Nissa, Voice of Zendikar) or Kitchen Finks, and Anger can do a lot to help counter the Kitchen Finks plan.
The Infect matchup is very complicated and you will generally lose to it a bunch before you start winning. It punishes mistakes almost instantly, and that punishment will usually cost you the game. The most important thing is patience. When Infect was really popular, midrange/control players typically lost to it because they were too hasty with their kill spells.