I like 5 discard, I'm leaning towards a 3/2 split on IoK vs TS. I also like 4 sideboard slots with lifegain in some split between Finks and CB.
As for sideboarding in the mirror, always board out the discard. Jund mirrors are historically super grindy, and the chance of eating a BBE doesn't offset the grindy nature. If things go as expected, topdecks will become a thing, at which point you can't afford to miss on discard spells. Every card in your deck needs to be a creature, Planeswalker, or answer. Using Rubin's list from the MOCS, I'd bring in Thrun, Liliana, Lavamancer, and replace remaining discard with Fulminators.
I've really liked 5 1-mana discard spells in the main, with a 6th and 2 Brutalities in the side. In particular, I really like the 4-1 split in the main because being able to Inquisition turn 1 against Burn is a huge step towards winning that matchup, and I've just had a really hard time configuring a sideboard with a 3/2 split that doesn't feel like it'll just get run over in that matchup. The decks where I want Thoughtseize tend to be much better post-board anyway (Tron, Scapeshift, combo), so I don't mind giving up points in game 1 against those decks to hedge against other stuff.
I'm just so excited to be playing Jund again. I genuinely did not expect BBE to add as much power to the deck as it did, and I feel like a real idiot for ever thinking that the Elf might not make a big difference.
Yeah, as it seems, BBE has a bigger impact on modern than Jace. I personally just hope it wont be broken in a specific deck (I dont think Jund, but maybe a Zoo list or whatever, might be anything) to it to be banned again sometime. I just hope its great, but not broken.
It doesn’t appear, to me at least, that you know what passive aggressive means. I’m curious what kind of response you expect when you make a couple of posts on a primer and in those couple of posts give a blanket ‘your primer is inaccurate’. I hope you take fewer liberties in normal social interactions.
Seriously, man. I just think there’s better ways to posit something like that.
Edit: Actually, I apologize for the first thing I said. That was snide. No reason to be unnecessarily confrontational. I just didn’t see Delver’s response as being passive aggressive. That would have been a better way to say that. But I maintain that ‘kickdooring’ a primer and essentially insulting someone’s hard work can’t bring about a great outcome. Being contentious is not the same thing as eliciting discourse.
So, based on y’all’s high praise, I paid for a month of SCG Premium so I could check out Jadine’s article. Pretty cool stuff there. I order enough singles from SCG anyway that the 5% discount ought to pay for the membership. Hopefully we’ll get some more solid articles after Dallas.
That whole thing about siding out a land (I’m assuming a Treetop?) against most Path to Exile decks blew my mind. That’s the kind of thing I never would have considered without an outside suggestion.
Not something I think we need to SB for because it represents such a very small percentage of the meta, but we’re super soft to Jund Living End. One Nihil Spellbomb in the board isn’t much. I’m not suggesting we get rid of Grafdigger’s Cage, btw. MB Scavenging Ooze does help, but it’s really too slow to keep up with a decent hand from the opposition and has to come down pretty early to even stand a chance. After game one the Shriekmaws come out of the board and put a quick stop to Scooze when combined with Beast Within. Targeted discard can get rid of cascade spells, but LE runs all eight now instead of the seven it often used to run which makes things a little more difficult. Just something to think about. LE preys on (or is at least decent against) a lot of the decks that prey on Jund, including Tron and Bogles. It has a pretty great MU against Control too. A lot better than most people think. I’m extremely interested to see if any good pilots realize this and try to steal a large event with LE. I’m very excited about Dallas.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Are all jund players as helpful as you two. The primer says that UW control is unfavoured - when it clearly isnt. I was seeking clarification and all I get is sass - and being told to read things properly. Cheers
Living end isn't a good deck. It's also a worse matchuo then jund. It's not something I'd ever bother to prepar3 for.
That’s a pretty strong opinion you’ve got there. Can’t say that I agree with the first sentence. The second one I didn’t quite understand. The third one I do agree with. Hence the introduction, “Not something I think we need to SB for because it represents such a very small percentage of the meta...”
Just wanted to mention the MU and say that I hope it (LE) sneaks in a win in a larger event like it has in the past. I think it’s well positioned right now.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Are all jund players as helpful as you two. The primer says that UW control is unfavoured - when it clearly isnt. I was seeking clarification and all I get is sass - and being told to read things properly. Cheers
Why do you think our UW control match is favorable? From what I see, they literally have all the answers to what we're trying to do. Their planeswalkers are actually just brutal for us to do deal with. If we're lucky, we catch them with Thoughtseize. However, that's highly unlikely. Search for Azcanta also nullifies the useful of discard spells to an extent as well, especially after it gets flipped. They can, in an almost literal sense, play from the top of their library. It's card advantage in the form of a limited tutor. It's quite brutal. We actually have to rely on tempo to beat them. Their mana denial plan also takes away one of our best win-cons in our creature-lands. That used to be the way we guaranteed victory. I think UW preys on midrange decks. Aggro decks have speed on their side. Sometimes they get there. Sometimes they don't. We don't have the setup to typically go for an aggressive slant so we typically have to hope they whiff sometimes.
Ive played 10 leagues with a 24 lamd list to a 35-15 record and the first 2 leagues of trying a 25 land list i get stuck on 2 in multiple games. I think it is really important to recognize that even the most dedicated of grinders are hard pressed to have their analysis of stuff like mana bases cross the threshold of merely being anecdotal. Its best to listen to math.
I hear mention of karstens article about consistent land drops but i dont see it applied. Now im not a mathematician so i choose to accept his ideas but in the conclusion of that article he recommends land counts for ranges of certain average cmcs. For example, steve rubins list had an avg cmc of about 2.08 which according to karsten would fall in the range of a 23 land deck. Now im not recommending 23 lands since i would ere on the side of more lands, which is why, if we go off math, 24 seems like the way to go.
Are all jund players as helpful as you two. The primer says that UW control is unfavoured - when it clearly isnt. I was seeking clarification and all I get is sass - and being told to read things properly. Cheers
Why do you think our UW control match is favorable? From what I see, they literally have all the answers to what we're trying to do. Their planeswalkers are actually just brutal for us to do deal with. If we're lucky, we catch them with Thoughtseize. However, that's highly unlikely. Search for Azcanta also nullifies the useful of discard spells to an extent as well, especially after it gets flipped. They can, in an almost literal sense, play from the top of their library. It's card advantage in the form of a limited tutor. It's quite brutal. We actually have to rely on tempo to beat them. Their mana denial plan also takes away one of our best win-cons in our creature-lands. That used to be the way we guaranteed victory. I think UW preys on midrange decks. Aggro decks have speed on their side. Sometimes they get there. Sometimes they don't. We don't have the setup to typically go for an aggressive slant so we typically have to hope they whiff sometimes.
I think BBE really hit this deck hard, man. I'm seeing a lot more Jund players report this matchup improving. It feels closer to 50/50. This used to feel like a 35/65 in UW's favor.
Hollow One is a really awful matchup in my experience. Along those lines, I've noticed that the graveyard decks that are resilient to one-shot hate (Hollow One, Living End, and Dredge) seem to be getting more popular on MTGO. It might be time to start playing Leyline of the Void. It's an extreme solution, but it's been done before.
I don't think so, but if it is unfavorable I think it's probably -5 at most. I struggled to beat an equally skilled UW Control player before the unban.
Have you played the matchup much since the unbanning, Chaos? BBE gets around so much. Game 1 we can really pressure their life total. Game 2, they start getting pounded by the added value from Brutalities, BBE, and the extra last Hope in the 75.
Hollow One is a really awful matchup in my experience. Along those lines, I've noticed that the graveyard decks that are resilient to one-shot hate (Hollow One, Living End, and Dredge) seem to be getting more popular on MTGO. It might be time to start playing Leyline of the Void. It's an extreme solution, but it's been done before.
This is an extreme position. Leyline is an extreme sideboard card, it's a 3 of minimum, and better at 4. The only decks I really think should be playing it is Hollow One and maybe Dredge.
Hollow One can still really beat face through graveyard hate.
I was saying for weeks that dredge would increase as BBE and Jace decks became popular.
Living End...Well, that matchup will always be atrocious unless we're in a situation that 4x Leylines is forced
As of now, Jund is in a state that it doesn't know what the hell it wants to look like, there's no way there's room to run this sideboard tech right now. I own 3x foil Leylines and have it stored in my handy dandy toolbox in case ***** goes down, but for the most part I think spellbomb and cage are fine.
I think Hollow One is a busted deck and is ban worthy, the rest of the community hasn't picked up on this deck yet to realize it. It's not as luck based or variance as I thought, and I continue to be appalled as I keep testing this deck. I'm not even good with the deck and feel like I'm handed too many free wins.
Are all jund players as helpful as you two. The primer says that UW control is unfavoured - when it clearly isnt. I was seeking clarification and all I get is sass - and being told to read things properly. Cheers
First of all, I want to explain why I reacted that harsh on your comment. You gotta see, you ask a question about the UW Control matchup, from which I refer to the primer. Next you say that it is just inacurate (which is imo debatable, since I dont think its clearly favourable for us) and you ask if the primer is updated for BBE. Since I actually recommended you to read a part of the primer where BBE specifically was mentioned I kinda felt hosed. If your comment wasnt meant that way then fine, but from the context it clearly appelaed that way. Just out of curiousity, what part of the primer did you actually read? Tell me, since from what I expected you read, you would imo reacted differently.
So, back on track, why do you clearly think that UW Control is favourable for us? Due to BBE? Do you think UW cant handle it?
What I know, UW was one of the toughest matchups pre BBE unban. I dont think that changes to "clearly favourable" just with 4 BBE.
You could start argumenting about the stuff you take for granted, because if you don't have good arguments for why UW is actually favourable, then this is also not very helpful. Especially since you orginally asked how we feel about the matchup, and everything you say is that it is clearly favourable while not willing to listen to us Junders. What were you trying to seek? That we simply confirm your opinion? If you know UW is that favourable and it is that clear for you, why even asking?
As for sideboarding in the mirror, always board out the discard. Jund mirrors are historically super grindy, and the chance of eating a BBE doesn't offset the grindy nature. If things go as expected, topdecks will become a thing, at which point you can't afford to miss on discard spells. Every card in your deck needs to be a creature, Planeswalker, or answer. Using Rubin's list from the MOCS, I'd bring in Thrun, Liliana, Lavamancer, and replace remaining discard with Fulminators.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I'm just so excited to be playing Jund again. I genuinely did not expect BBE to add as much power to the deck as it did, and I feel like a real idiot for ever thinking that the Elf might not make a big difference.
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
Seriously, man. I just think there’s better ways to posit something like that.
Edit: Actually, I apologize for the first thing I said. That was snide. No reason to be unnecessarily confrontational. I just didn’t see Delver’s response as being passive aggressive. That would have been a better way to say that. But I maintain that ‘kickdooring’ a primer and essentially insulting someone’s hard work can’t bring about a great outcome. Being contentious is not the same thing as eliciting discourse.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
That whole thing about siding out a land (I’m assuming a Treetop?) against most Path to Exile decks blew my mind. That’s the kind of thing I never would have considered without an outside suggestion.
Not something I think we need to SB for because it represents such a very small percentage of the meta, but we’re super soft to Jund Living End. One Nihil Spellbomb in the board isn’t much. I’m not suggesting we get rid of Grafdigger’s Cage, btw. MB Scavenging Ooze does help, but it’s really too slow to keep up with a decent hand from the opposition and has to come down pretty early to even stand a chance. After game one the Shriekmaws come out of the board and put a quick stop to Scooze when combined with Beast Within. Targeted discard can get rid of cascade spells, but LE runs all eight now instead of the seven it often used to run which makes things a little more difficult. Just something to think about. LE preys on (or is at least decent against) a lot of the decks that prey on Jund, including Tron and Bogles. It has a pretty great MU against Control too. A lot better than most people think. I’m extremely interested to see if any good pilots realize this and try to steal a large event with LE. I’m very excited about Dallas.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
Spirits
That’s a pretty strong opinion you’ve got there. Can’t say that I agree with the first sentence. The second one I didn’t quite understand. The third one I do agree with. Hence the introduction, “Not something I think we need to SB for because it represents such a very small percentage of the meta...”
Just wanted to mention the MU and say that I hope it (LE) sneaks in a win in a larger event like it has in the past. I think it’s well positioned right now.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Why do you think our UW control match is favorable? From what I see, they literally have all the answers to what we're trying to do. Their planeswalkers are actually just brutal for us to do deal with. If we're lucky, we catch them with Thoughtseize. However, that's highly unlikely. Search for Azcanta also nullifies the useful of discard spells to an extent as well, especially after it gets flipped. They can, in an almost literal sense, play from the top of their library. It's card advantage in the form of a limited tutor. It's quite brutal. We actually have to rely on tempo to beat them. Their mana denial plan also takes away one of our best win-cons in our creature-lands. That used to be the way we guaranteed victory. I think UW preys on midrange decks. Aggro decks have speed on their side. Sometimes they get there. Sometimes they don't. We don't have the setup to typically go for an aggressive slant so we typically have to hope they whiff sometimes.
I hear mention of karstens article about consistent land drops but i dont see it applied. Now im not a mathematician so i choose to accept his ideas but in the conclusion of that article he recommends land counts for ranges of certain average cmcs. For example, steve rubins list had an avg cmc of about 2.08 which according to karsten would fall in the range of a 23 land deck. Now im not recommending 23 lands since i would ere on the side of more lands, which is why, if we go off math, 24 seems like the way to go.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
Hollow One seems pretty rough. Last week a guy who said he had almost no experience with the deck beat four different Jund players.
Nassir said he thinks it's pretty good, too.
Based off my time with Hollow One, I don't think it's a good matchup
Tron is still a bad matchup, but it feels a little less hopeless with BBE
Living End is a nightmare matchup.
Lingering souls still preys on Jund
Titanshift
RG Eldrazi Tron face rolls this deck
E-Tron is still bad
This Bogles deck with maindeck Leylines is bad, but that seems way too meta dependent
Mardu is a little unfavorable, but I think BBE made it better
That seems to be the main ones.
I think BBE really hit this deck hard, man. I'm seeing a lot more Jund players report this matchup improving. It feels closer to 50/50. This used to feel like a 35/65 in UW's favor.
I don't think so, but if it is unfavorable I think it's probably -5 at most. I struggled to beat an equally skilled UW Control player before the unban.
Have you played the matchup much since the unbanning, Chaos? BBE gets around so much. Game 1 we can really pressure their life total. Game 2, they start getting pounded by the added value from Brutalities, BBE, and the extra last Hope in the 75.
This is an extreme position. Leyline is an extreme sideboard card, it's a 3 of minimum, and better at 4. The only decks I really think should be playing it is Hollow One and maybe Dredge.
Hollow One can still really beat face through graveyard hate.
I was saying for weeks that dredge would increase as BBE and Jace decks became popular.
Living End...Well, that matchup will always be atrocious unless we're in a situation that 4x Leylines is forced
As of now, Jund is in a state that it doesn't know what the hell it wants to look like, there's no way there's room to run this sideboard tech right now. I own 3x foil Leylines and have it stored in my handy dandy toolbox in case ***** goes down, but for the most part I think spellbomb and cage are fine.
I think Hollow One is a busted deck and is ban worthy, the rest of the community hasn't picked up on this deck yet to realize it. It's not as luck based or variance as I thought, and I continue to be appalled as I keep testing this deck. I'm not even good with the deck and feel like I'm handed too many free wins.
First of all, I want to explain why I reacted that harsh on your comment. You gotta see, you ask a question about the UW Control matchup, from which I refer to the primer. Next you say that it is just inacurate (which is imo debatable, since I dont think its clearly favourable for us) and you ask if the primer is updated for BBE. Since I actually recommended you to read a part of the primer where BBE specifically was mentioned I kinda felt hosed. If your comment wasnt meant that way then fine, but from the context it clearly appelaed that way. Just out of curiousity, what part of the primer did you actually read? Tell me, since from what I expected you read, you would imo reacted differently.
So, back on track, why do you clearly think that UW Control is favourable for us? Due to BBE? Do you think UW cant handle it?
What I know, UW was one of the toughest matchups pre BBE unban. I dont think that changes to "clearly favourable" just with 4 BBE.
You could start argumenting about the stuff you take for granted, because if you don't have good arguments for why UW is actually favourable, then this is also not very helpful. Especially since you orginally asked how we feel about the matchup, and everything you say is that it is clearly favourable while not willing to listen to us Junders. What were you trying to seek? That we simply confirm your opinion? If you know UW is that favourable and it is that clear for you, why even asking?