Do we actually want Last Hope in the mainboard instead of another Fatal push?
So many successful decks are cutting down to 1x terminate for that push.
Again, personal experience here, but Last Hope hasn't been great for me in the main. She serves a narrow angle of attacking go-wide strategies and decks that have lots of removal. Personally, she doesn't have enough play to make it into my mainboard, but I definitely would keep her in the side.
I disliked Liliana, the Last Hope in the main when the first few deck lists started coming out, and after playing with it I've moved mine into the side and gone down to 1 copy in the 75. When it's great it's great, but 3 mana is too much for a clunky midrange card that isn't relevant in a lot of matchups in the main deck. A bunch of the small creature decks are also playing creatures with 2+ toughness now, so she's also just not killing stuff as much.
Outside of favoring Bolt over Fatal Push, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that if you wouldn't play a card without BBE, you also shouldn't play it with BBE. As much as I enjoy cascading into LtlH, that doesn't alter how useless she is against Tron, Scapeshift, or Storm.
I don't know if it was Steve Rubin who said or I read it somewhere, but Mike Sigrist said he basically went 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 5-0 on MTGO with Jund. I certainly wouldn't ignore that, not that MTGO results are everything.
Then I started pondering about Steve Rubin. They both kept the formula of the 6 discard package.
I've also found while bolt is obviously better with BBE, midrange mirrors can't just be ignored now, I want just a tiny bit more interaction to handle Goyf early on. I was also finding Ravine slipping out of bolt's range frustrating, along with Decay missing those manlands. I don't even get excited to see Decay anymore.
I also noticed how bad I needed that 1 mana spell to interact with Goblin Guide, if he connects twice it's game over for us, we aren't surviving 4 damage from Guide without extreme variance on one side.
The extra push also makes sense since the 5th manland enters tapped in and you want that black mana up for removal instead of losing tempo. For Rubins list, I mean.
DeFish made a pretty good observation, we didn't want to play Last Hope maindeck before BBE---should we now?
She should be in the 75 without a doubt though.
3x Scooze has felt very right.
I have no clue if Rubin is on to something, but it's the most drastic change someone's made with results without it looking idiotic, so I want to give it a try.
Looking at the list I just posted, this literally looks like the old Jund decks with BBE just slotted in, exactly what we all said shouldn't happen. I don't even know anymore
I do know the Facebook Jund page has gone to ***** now, it's a flood of bad questions, bad posts and just some ignorant people. How do you spend this much money on a deck and not do the research for your deck?
Let us know how a list no Abrupt Decay plays I've always had a great relationship with the card in an open meta, but maybe push is an effective replacement for that and some numbers of terminate? I'm curious to know is this was just another meta call for what was in the MOCS, or if it's the real deal.
I disliked Liliana, the Last Hope in the main when the first few deck lists started coming out, and after playing with it I've moved mine into the side and gone down to 1 copy in the 75. When it's great it's great, but 3 mana is too much for a clunky midrange card that isn't relevant in a lot of matchups in the main deck. A bunch of the small creature decks are also playing creatures with 2+ toughness now, so she's also just not killing stuff as much.
Outside of favoring Bolt over Fatal Push, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that if you wouldn't play a card without BBE, you also shouldn't play it with BBE. As much as I enjoy cascading into LtlH, that doesn't alter how useless she is against Tron, Scapeshift, or Storm.
I am hugely surprized that you dislike LtLH, I have felt that she was absolutely amazing as soon as she became a staple in the deck. I would even consider her the third best PW ever printed to be honest. Right last week she singlehandedly won me 2 games, I definitely wont leave home with a copy maindeck at least.
I don't know if it was Steve Rubin who said or I read it somewhere, but Mike Sigrist said he basically went 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 5-0 on MTGO with Jund. I certainly wouldn't ignore that, not that MTGO results are everything.
Then I started pondering about Steve Rubin. They both kept the formula of the 6 discard package.
I've also found while bolt is obviously better with BBE, midrange mirrors can't just be ignored now, I want just a tiny bit more interaction to handle Goyf early on. I was also finding Ravine slipping out of bolt's range frustrating, along with Decay missing those manlands. I don't even get excited to see Decay anymore.
I also noticed how bad I needed that 1 mana spell to interact with Goblin Guide, if he connects twice it's game over for us, we aren't surviving 4 damage from Guide without extreme variance on one side.
The extra push also makes sense since the 5th manland enters tapped in and you want that black mana up for removal instead of losing tempo. For Rubins list, I mean.
DeFish made a pretty good observation, we didn't want to play Last Hope maindeck before BBE---should we now?
She should be in the 75 without a doubt though.
3x Scooze has felt very right.
I have no clue if Rubin is on to something, but it's the most drastic change someone's made with results without it looking idiotic, so I want to give it a try.
I also like how Pardee and Sigrists lists look.
I would not lean too much on the MOCS. Heavy metagaming and limited testing time brings a false picture to the table. They literally were forced to submit decklists 3 days before the actual tournament.
Rubin cut Bobs in the mirror, that really chunks a huge bit of credibilty off of him for me honestly. Not wanting to be mean, but I would take all this with a huge grain of salt when a pro obviously has not full experience of playing the deck. I bet some decisions will change when people realize how to really evaluate cards in the deck. I have a strong feeling many cards are either overvalued or undervalued from the pros at the MOCS.
I said from the beginning Sigrists aricle was interesting, no one seemed to be impressed about it. I think he has the right way to look at Jund, just like I said. And since he had good results with it, there is some credit to it.
I personally loved LtLH maindeck, also without BBE.
Looking at the list I just posted, this literally looks like the old Jund decks with BBE just slotted in, exactly what we all said shouldn't happen. I don't even know anymore
I do know the Facebook Jund page has gone to ***** now, it's a flood of bad questions, bad posts and just some ignorant people. How do you spend this much money on a deck and not do the research for your deck?
I have to say, you said that primarily. I was in favor of this approach from the beginning on, because it is the old way and the old rules we know work. It is the logical starting point from testing and including BBE into our deck. So in that sense, I think there is nothing wrong in running that list.
Well, if you are mad about FB, why not share the primer with them to let them research
Rubin said he made his list with the mirrors in mind.
It seems good for the mirrors in general.
It could be a meta play, but it looks solid overall. I would like the 4th bolt back, but Goyfs get better as a result of bolt being better, so it all gets complex.
I disliked Liliana, the Last Hope in the main when the first few deck lists started coming out, and after playing with it I've moved mine into the side and gone down to 1 copy in the 75. When it's great it's great, but 3 mana is too much for a clunky midrange card that isn't relevant in a lot of matchups in the main deck. A bunch of the small creature decks are also playing creatures with 2+ toughness now, so she's also just not killing stuff as much.
Outside of favoring Bolt over Fatal Push, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that if you wouldn't play a card without BBE, you also shouldn't play it with BBE. As much as I enjoy cascading into LtlH, that doesn't alter how useless she is against Tron, Scapeshift, or Storm.
I am hugely surprized that you dislike LtLH, I have felt that she was absolutely amazing as soon as she became a staple in the deck. I would even consider her the third best PW ever printed to be honest. Right last week she singlehandedly won me 2 games, I definitely wont leave home with a copy maindeck at least.
I don't know if it was Steve Rubin who said or I read it somewhere, but Mike Sigrist said he basically went 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 5-0 on MTGO with Jund. I certainly wouldn't ignore that, not that MTGO results are everything.
Then I started pondering about Steve Rubin. They both kept the formula of the 6 discard package.
I've also found while bolt is obviously better with BBE, midrange mirrors can't just be ignored now, I want just a tiny bit more interaction to handle Goyf early on. I was also finding Ravine slipping out of bolt's range frustrating, along with Decay missing those manlands. I don't even get excited to see Decay anymore.
I also noticed how bad I needed that 1 mana spell to interact with Goblin Guide, if he connects twice it's game over for us, we aren't surviving 4 damage from Guide without extreme variance on one side.
The extra push also makes sense since the 5th manland enters tapped in and you want that black mana up for removal instead of losing tempo. For Rubins list, I mean.
DeFish made a pretty good observation, we didn't want to play Last Hope maindeck before BBE---should we now?
She should be in the 75 without a doubt though.
3x Scooze has felt very right.
I have no clue if Rubin is on to something, but it's the most drastic change someone's made with results without it looking idiotic, so I want to give it a try.
I also like how Pardee and Sigrists lists look.
I would not lean too much on the MOCS. Heavy metagaming and limited testing time brings a false picture to the table. They literally were forced to submit decklists 3 days before the actual tournament.
Rubin cut Bobs in the mirror, that really chunks a huge bit of credibilty off of him for me honestly. Not wanting to be mean, but I would take all this with a huge grain of salt when a pro obviously has not full experience of playing the deck. I bet some decisions will change when people realize how to really evaluate cards in the deck. I have a strong feeling many cards are either overvalued or undervalued from the pros at the MOCS.
I said from the beginning Sigrists aricle was interesting, no one seemed to be impressed about it. I think he has the right way to look at Jund, just like I said. And since he had good results with it, there is some credit to it.
I personally loved LtLH maindeck, also without BBE.
Looking at the list I just posted, this literally looks like the old Jund decks with BBE just slotted in, exactly what we all said shouldn't happen. I don't even know anymore
I do know the Facebook Jund page has gone to ***** now, it's a flood of bad questions, bad posts and just some ignorant people. How do you spend this much money on a deck and not do the research for your deck?
I have to say, you said that primarily. I was in favor of this approach from the beginning on, because it is the old way and the old rules we know work. It is the logical starting point from testing and including BBE into our deck. So in that sense, I think there is nothing wrong in running that list.
Well, if you are mad about FB, why not share the primer with them to let them research
Damn, you've scared me into backing out of that list now. I think I'm actually going to take your advice and play Sigrists list, I thought it all looked good except for the 2x surgicals and 2x blooming marsh.
Rubin said he made his list with the mirrors in mind.
It seems good for the mirrors in general.
It could be a meta play, but it looks solid overall. I would like the 4th bolt back, but Goyfs get better as a result of bolt being better, so it all gets complex.
Unfortunately he wasnt very mindful of the mirror when he kept discard and cut Bobs.
I think that list is definitely okay, however I am not sure we can call it the best list for the mirror in mind. Especially when we see false SBing like this.
Not saying his list is wrong, I think its definitely worth it to test, also would totally love to see results from your list you posted. I am curious how "bad" it is with BBE to go back to normal discard/removal package.
Damn, you've scared me into backing out of that list now. I think I'm actually going to take your advice and play Sigrists list, I thought it all looked good except for the 2x surgicals and 2x blooming marsh.
Yeah would definitely change that cards! Let us know how it goes!
Let us know how a list no Abrupt Decay plays I've always had a great relationship with the card in an open meta, but maybe push is an effective replacement for that and some numbers of terminate? I'm curious to know is this was just another meta call for what was in the MOCS, or if it's the real deal.
I too am curious about the no Abrupt Decay plan too. Mostly because I feel I want two in the 75 now, it dealing with a lot of stuff in the mirror. I might just be thinking this because of my local meta though, it's about 10% As Foretold decks, which are a pain to deal with.
Steve Rubin shaved a Dark Confidant on the draw. You guys are making it look like he removed all 4. I don't support his decision in doing this but let's not throw the guy into the fire.
Steve Rubin shaved a Dark Confidant on the draw. You guys are making it look like he removed all 4. I don't support his decision in doing this but let's not throw the guy into the fire.
Certainly not, nobody is doing that. He performed well overall. But people tend to find the holy grail in such occasions as it seems and it has also be therefore pointed that you should be careful about pros sometimes. Not everything they do is golden.
Like SpSiegel mentioned, this is particularly the case in the fb group for example.
Sideboarding plan of Steve Rubin in the mirror was definitely weird. Siding out Bob can't be right and I don't think you want to keep discard in either.
I like his list otherwise and he also played well beside that sideboarding.
On the draw, I think you leave in Thoughtseize to nab BBE but you take out IoK, and have no discard on the play but I don't play the mirror much.
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Do we actually want Last Hope in the mainboard instead of another Fatal push?
So many successful decks are cutting down to 1x terminate for that push.
Again, personal experience here, but Last Hope hasn't been great for me in the main. She serves a narrow angle of attacking go-wide strategies and decks that have lots of removal. Personally, she doesn't have enough play to make it into my mainboard, but I definitely would keep her in the side.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Outside of favoring Bolt over Fatal Push, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that if you wouldn't play a card without BBE, you also shouldn't play it with BBE. As much as I enjoy cascading into LtlH, that doesn't alter how useless she is against Tron, Scapeshift, or Storm.
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Twilight Mire
3x Raging Ravine
2x Treetop Village
2x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (20)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Fatal Push
1x Dreadbore
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Grim Lavamancer
3x Collective Brutality
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ancient Grudge
I don't know if it was Steve Rubin who said or I read it somewhere, but Mike Sigrist said he basically went 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 5-0 on MTGO with Jund. I certainly wouldn't ignore that, not that MTGO results are everything.
Then I started pondering about Steve Rubin. They both kept the formula of the 6 discard package.
I've also found while bolt is obviously better with BBE, midrange mirrors can't just be ignored now, I want just a tiny bit more interaction to handle Goyf early on. I was also finding Ravine slipping out of bolt's range frustrating, along with Decay missing those manlands. I don't even get excited to see Decay anymore.
I also noticed how bad I needed that 1 mana spell to interact with Goblin Guide, if he connects twice it's game over for us, we aren't surviving 4 damage from Guide without extreme variance on one side.
The extra push also makes sense since the 5th manland enters tapped in and you want that black mana up for removal instead of losing tempo. For Rubins list, I mean.
DeFish made a pretty good observation, we didn't want to play Last Hope maindeck before BBE---should we now?
She should be in the 75 without a doubt though.
3x Scooze has felt very right.
I have no clue if Rubin is on to something, but it's the most drastic change someone's made with results without it looking idiotic, so I want to give it a try.
I also like how Pardee and Sigrists lists look.
I do know the Facebook Jund page has gone to ***** now, it's a flood of bad questions, bad posts and just some ignorant people. How do you spend this much money on a deck and not do the research for your deck?
I am hugely surprized that you dislike LtLH, I have felt that she was absolutely amazing as soon as she became a staple in the deck. I would even consider her the third best PW ever printed to be honest. Right last week she singlehandedly won me 2 games, I definitely wont leave home with a copy maindeck at least.
I would not lean too much on the MOCS. Heavy metagaming and limited testing time brings a false picture to the table. They literally were forced to submit decklists 3 days before the actual tournament.
Rubin cut Bobs in the mirror, that really chunks a huge bit of credibilty off of him for me honestly. Not wanting to be mean, but I would take all this with a huge grain of salt when a pro obviously has not full experience of playing the deck. I bet some decisions will change when people realize how to really evaluate cards in the deck. I have a strong feeling many cards are either overvalued or undervalued from the pros at the MOCS.
I said from the beginning Sigrists aricle was interesting, no one seemed to be impressed about it. I think he has the right way to look at Jund, just like I said. And since he had good results with it, there is some credit to it.
I personally loved LtLH maindeck, also without BBE.
I have to say, you said that primarily. I was in favor of this approach from the beginning on, because it is the old way and the old rules we know work. It is the logical starting point from testing and including BBE into our deck. So in that sense, I think there is nothing wrong in running that list.
Well, if you are mad about FB, why not share the primer with them to let them research
It seems good for the mirrors in general.
It could be a meta play, but it looks solid overall. I would like the 4th bolt back, but Goyfs get better as a result of bolt being better, so it all gets complex.
Damn, you've scared me into backing out of that list now. I think I'm actually going to take your advice and play Sigrists list, I thought it all looked good except for the 2x surgicals and 2x blooming marsh.
Unfortunately he wasnt very mindful of the mirror when he kept discard and cut Bobs.
I think that list is definitely okay, however I am not sure we can call it the best list for the mirror in mind. Especially when we see false SBing like this.
Not saying his list is wrong, I think its definitely worth it to test, also would totally love to see results from your list you posted. I am curious how "bad" it is with BBE to go back to normal discard/removal package.
Yeah would definitely change that cards! Let us know how it goes!
I too am curious about the no Abrupt Decay plan too. Mostly because I feel I want two in the 75 now, it dealing with a lot of stuff in the mirror. I might just be thinking this because of my local meta though, it's about 10% As Foretold decks, which are a pain to deal with.
Creature [15]
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker [4]
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant [10]
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan’s Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Terminate
Sorcery [7]
1x Dreadbore
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Swamp
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Destructive Revelry
1x Rakdos Charm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Collective Brutality
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
This is what I’m playing right now..
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Yeah, cut discard, leave bob in and bring in fulminators.
Certainly not, nobody is doing that. He performed well overall. But people tend to find the holy grail in such occasions as it seems and it has also be therefore pointed that you should be careful about pros sometimes. Not everything they do is golden.
Like SpSiegel mentioned, this is particularly the case in the fb group for example.
On the draw, I think you leave in Thoughtseize to nab BBE but you take out IoK, and have no discard on the play but I don't play the mirror much.