Reid duke also won only 1 game with his list while pardee performed as the top seed player.
Reid is still testing so people should be careful taking everything at face value
You guys are forgetting about good deck building with adding another pulse and playing dreadbore. Don't forget your fundamentals. I'm seeing this board and the Facebook jund lose sight of this
Jace is underperforming big time. Gurgmags and tasigur may be perfectly fine after people are some testing all this newness.
Pardee is also playing Dreadbore for the record. And no Terminates.
Cutting Push entirely means giving up on the mirror and against DS entirely imo.
Could you also elobarate why you are adding Lavamancer to the mb as I don't currently feel we have problems against small creatures (LtLH also helps a lot already here). I love him in the sb, but only in specific matchups.
Cutting Push entirely means giving up on the mirror and against DS entirely imo.
Could you also elobarate why you are adding Lavamancer to the mb as I don't currently feel we have problems against small creatures (LtLH also helps a lot already here). I love him in the sb, but only in specific matchups.
You can beat DS without Push. I play a 3-1 split of Bolt/Push in my deck. The 1 of isn't that relevant. We seem to be really favored against DS.
Reid duke also won only 1 game with his list while pardee performed as the top seed player.
Reid is still testing so people should be careful taking everything at face value
You guys are forgetting about good deck building with adding another pulse and playing dreadbore. Don't forget your fundamentals. I'm seeing this board and the Facebook jund lose sight of this
Jace is underperforming big time. Gurgmags and tasigur may be perfectly fine after people are some testing all this newness.
Pardee is also playing Dreadbore for the record. And no Terminates.
He only added 1 sorcery and used the other terminate for s push to lower the curve
Cutting Push entirely means giving up on the mirror and against DS entirely imo.
Could you also elobarate why you are adding Lavamancer to the mb as I don't currently feel we have problems against small creatures (LtLH also helps a lot already here). I love him in the sb, but only in specific matchups.
Concerning the whole 75, I did basically do: -1 Push +1 Pulse.
So I am not giving up anything here, I am actually helping myself against higher CMC permanents.
Are we? I know the matchup from both perspectives and I am not sure whether Jund is favoured against DS. Junk was preban because of Souls, but they are efficient and resilient. Playing without Push in that matchup makes me very uncomfortable (especially against Traverse Shadow).
Are we? I know the matchup from both perspectives and I am not sure whether Jund is favoured against DS. Junk was preban because of Souls, but they are efficient and resilient. Playing without Push in that matchup makes me very uncomfortable (especially against Traverse Shadow).
Before BBE we were definitely behind. Reid says that BBE makes it so that we become favoured. Cant really tell more about that yet though.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think swapping Pulse for Push goes without any disadvantage in that matchup. A one mana hard removal at instant speed vs a 3 mana removal at sorcery speed is a huge difference.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think swapping Pulse for Push goes without any disadvantage in that matchup. A one mana hard removal at instant speed vs a 3 mana removal at sorcery speed is a huge difference.
Yeah sure in tempo based games. But usually I think Pulse is worth more than Push in the mirror and against DS which you mentioned. DS can play pretty tempo based games, sure, but I only lost to delve creatures really which get caught by Pulse.
However, I am not thinking about those changes due to those 2 matchups. Its about Ponza and Leyline decks.
Before BBE we were definitely behind. Reid says that BBE makes it so that we become favoured. Cant really tell more about that yet though.
I'm not sure about pre BBE because I dropped Jund around the time GDS became a thing, but I play the GDS matchup a lot (it's a very popular deck locally) and I'm winning the vast majority of games. BBE helps a lot for sure though so Reid is almost certainly correct in saying that.
Traverse has a higher threat density so that one is probably more even, or perhaps in their favor.
Yes but remember, we played 3-4 Pushes to deal with all their threats.
Bolt is incredibly bad against Traverse Shadow.
As it is against Grixis DS. Don't think that makes Grixis DS better than Traverse. You are more likely to kill something against Grixis, but its still not a card I actually want against them.
I am 100 % sure we have a better Traverse Shadow matchup than Grixis DS matchup, regardless of BBE.
That doesn't make sense to me.
Why?
Traverse Shadow should be something closer to a mirror match as far as power cards, but they have the ability to tutor for threats or just see more of their deck in general. Are we really getting that much value out of Bloodbraid Elf consistently to say we're favored? What else gives Jund an advantage?
I am 100 % sure we have a better Traverse Shadow matchup than Grixis DS matchup, regardless of BBE.
That doesn't make sense to me.
Why?
Traverse Shadow should be something closer to a mirror match as far as power cards, but they have the ability to tutor for threats or just see more of their deck in general. Are we really getting that much value out of Bloodbraid Elf consistently to say we're favored? What else gives Jund an advantage?
I did mean it in that way, that before BBE was unbanned, we had a better match against it than Grixis DS. I think that is clear since we ran about 3-4 pushes alongisde 3 Terminate and 4 LoTV. And Delve was the real problem since we could not hit every delve threat with all of our removal. Against Traverse we could.
Right now, we changed Pushes to Bolt (I feel equally weaken our removal suite to Traverse Shadow and Grixis DS due to that) and have BBE. BBE is good against both. So basically the delve creatures (and snapcaster) are still the only part of the equation that sticks out to me.
I also find GDS to be harder matchup for us than Traverse Shadow because of delve creatures and Snapcastr Mage. These are better against us than anything Traverse Shadow can produce except for Lingering Souls but most list are moving away from the white splash. However I still rather face Lingering Souls than delve creatures + Snapcaster Mage. Both are good matchups for Jund though. I played against both of them since unbans and won all matches so far. That said I feel comfortable playing against both of them with Jund which I can't say for the time before BBE.
How many cards are you running to beat Lingering Souls? I'm using 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope, 1 Chandra, Pyromaster all MB that can trade with Souls at parity. 3 copies means they're going to have more spirits than we have answers though but so far it's been decent.
Been playing this list to some success this past week. In the past week in two events I played against Jund, Titanshift, Esper Midrange x2, Dredge, Burn, Mono-U Tron, and Mono-U Merfolk and won against everybody except Mono-U Merfolk:
3 kcommands and 2 LtLH in the 75 have helped a lot in the midrange matchups. Last Thursday there were 5 Jund and 2 esper midrange players. Today I won a game 3 where my opponent was on 3 life. KCommand to deal 2 damage and return BBE. BBE cascaded into another KCommand
There are so many Jaces running around in my local meta, with people on Jeskai, Esper, Grixis, and Miracles, so the 2 Maelstrom pulses and dreadbores are nice for that, as well as the 4 creature lands.
Speaking of creature lands, treetop Village really has done well for me, and I like the 2/2 split between ravine and treetop.
I think for my sideboard I want to go down to 1 ancient grudge, I have the 3 K-commands and I have yet to play against or even see lantern or affinity in my local meta since the unbannings. I'm trying to figure out what to replace the Ancient Grudge with. My initial ideas are either the 2nd fatal push or Anger. Anger would help against some of the small creature matchups that still show up like Elves and Merfolk, but push could help with those matchups as well as the mirror. If anyone has other ideas on what could possibly take that SB slot I'd be interested in hearing it.
Pardee is also playing Dreadbore for the record. And no Terminates.
-1 Push main
+1 Grim Lavamancer moved from SB to MB
+1 Pulse to SB
Which would end up like that:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures [15]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thoughtseize
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Could you also elobarate why you are adding Lavamancer to the mb as I don't currently feel we have problems against small creatures (LtLH also helps a lot already here). I love him in the sb, but only in specific matchups.
You can beat DS without Push. I play a 3-1 split of Bolt/Push in my deck. The 1 of isn't that relevant. We seem to be really favored against DS.
He only added 1 sorcery and used the other terminate for s push to lower the curve
Concerning the whole 75, I did basically do: -1 Push +1 Pulse.
So I am not giving up anything here, I am actually helping myself against higher CMC permanents.
Before BBE we were definitely behind. Reid says that BBE makes it so that we become favoured. Cant really tell more about that yet though.
Yeah sure in tempo based games. But usually I think Pulse is worth more than Push in the mirror and against DS which you mentioned. DS can play pretty tempo based games, sure, but I only lost to delve creatures really which get caught by Pulse.
However, I am not thinking about those changes due to those 2 matchups. Its about Ponza and Leyline decks.
I'm not sure about pre BBE because I dropped Jund around the time GDS became a thing, but I play the GDS matchup a lot (it's a very popular deck locally) and I'm winning the vast majority of games. BBE helps a lot for sure though so Reid is almost certainly correct in saying that.
Traverse has a higher threat density so that one is probably more even, or perhaps in their favor.
That doesn't make sense to me.
Bolt is incredibly bad against Traverse Shadow.
Why?
As it is against Grixis DS. Don't think that makes Grixis DS better than Traverse. You are more likely to kill something against Grixis, but its still not a card I actually want against them.
Traverse Shadow should be something closer to a mirror match as far as power cards, but they have the ability to tutor for threats or just see more of their deck in general. Are we really getting that much value out of Bloodbraid Elf consistently to say we're favored? What else gives Jund an advantage?
I did mean it in that way, that before BBE was unbanned, we had a better match against it than Grixis DS. I think that is clear since we ran about 3-4 pushes alongisde 3 Terminate and 4 LoTV. And Delve was the real problem since we could not hit every delve threat with all of our removal. Against Traverse we could.
Right now, we changed Pushes to Bolt (I feel equally weaken our removal suite to Traverse Shadow and Grixis DS due to that) and have BBE. BBE is good against both. So basically the delve creatures (and snapcaster) are still the only part of the equation that sticks out to me.
How many cards are you running to beat Lingering Souls? I'm using 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope, 1 Chandra, Pyromaster all MB that can trade with Souls at parity. 3 copies means they're going to have more spirits than we have answers though but so far it's been decent.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (25)
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Treetop Village
2 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Twilight Mire
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
Sorcery (8)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dreadbore
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Some thoughts on the list