Can someone tell me why we want Spellbomb over Rakdos Charm?
I just really don’t like that card in Jund. I mean, it’s like the “seals” in that you play it and then it’s ready to go when you need it, but we still really want that cantrip which costs B. Sure it can come down a turn sooner. But I don’t like them knowing about it and being able to play around it. I’ve Krosan Gripped a truly disproportionate amount of Relics and Spellbombs when playing Living End. And if I can’t do that, I just wait to start cycling until I find one of my Ingot Chewers, or I just start hardcasting. I like being able to surprise the GY player, or bluff them holding up BR once I’ve used a charm on them previously. I like the utility of charm. I like it against Mardu Pyromancer because it provides some crucial GY hate against Linger Souls and Bedlam Reveler, or some utility in that it gives me some reach if I need to close out the game. I don’t think I would side in spellbomb in that MU. Charm could be useful against Humans and Fish (think vial, Master of Waves) if you happened to have some extra room when sideboarding. Of course it’s good against GY strategies, that’s the point. But you also get some extra cards against Tron, Affinity, and Lantern.
I like the utility of Charm. If it’s the wrong move can someone please explain why? I know we used to run it way back when, but back then it also had the extra utility against Twin (edit: and Melira Pod! Dang, I forgot how good charm used to be). Speaking of Twin, I miss it. I always did really well against it with Jund.
Rakdos Charm has the advantage that it has a surprise factor, but thats about it. In every grindy matchup where GY hate is relevant I would never side in Charm. Why? Because it only interacts in so called "non-live" card zones. The GY is a non live zone. It simply means that the zone is not impacting the boardstate. And as a goodstuff deck, we only want cards to be impactful on live zones. In a topdeck mode, Rakdos Charm is devastating to topdeck against Mardu. Spellbomb is great. Why? Because it cantrips. And that is sooo much better than the surprise factor Charm provides.
I rarely find the other 2 modes of the Charm useful. Artifact hate? We have KCommand, Pulse, Decay and Grudge. Pinging the opponent? This is not relevant surely 90 % of the time at least and I really don't seek that against go-wide strategies as opposed to a sweeper.
Spellbomb is amazing against Mardu Pyromancer. Charm is incredibly bad.
You are speaking about Living End and are probably biased due to that. Against Living End Rakdos Charm is an ok card to have. However, Spellbomb is good here as well. If you wait until you find an answer for it, you are likely behind at that point. However, not in attrition based matchups. Its basically the same as if you would side in Surgical against Souls. Its incredibly bad.
Spellbomb is the most versatile GY hate there is which can come in against every matchup if you like. And the single reason for that is because you have the effect on turn 1 onwards and you can draw a card off of it. For a goodstuff midrange deck, this is the best GY hate we can have IMO.
Ofc there are other cases where we want some Cages too. However, I would never side them in against Mardu decks or Lingering Souls decks. You want them against CoCo decks and real GY based decks like Storm and Dredge. Thats where Cage is showing stronger performancer than Spellbomb. But other than that, Spellbomb is the number 1 GY hate card.
In addition of what FlyingDelver said, Nihil Spellbomb is a card you can bring in match up against which you need your side board key cards, to find them thanks the cantrip.
For example against Burn, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are cards you remove from your deck, then you bring life gain, but you don't play 6 or 7 of those kind of cards in your SB, so bringing Nihil Spellbomb to find them is a good option too (and it grows the Goyf)
As for the gy hate I like Nihil Spellbomb the most. It's the most versatile of them which is why I like it even though it may not be the best against specific decks. At worst it draws you a card which is not terrible and it makes your Goyf bigger. On the other hand I don't like Rakdos Charm. It does more things but neither of them really good-it's slow gy hate and it might be even too late against many decks on many occasions.
I'm actually liking Faerie Macabre. It's pure tempo early so you can advance your board while disrupting the GY, it's a hit off Liliana/Kolaghan's which can even rebuy the GY hate mode, it's instant, it's easy Ooze fuel, it's a flying blocker, it's a better BBE hit than Spellbomb, and it's selective hate so it keeps Goyf pumped. What I really like about it though is that it's good late and good in multiples. Unlike something like Rakdos Charm or Nihil Spellbomb, when you don't need the GY hate anymore you can convert it into board state instead.
A list with 25 lands, interesting manabase in 5 manlands total and 3 Treetops (only 17 resources for black mana though, I really would love a Twilight Mire in here): Click
Another list with 24 lands, skimping on LtLH maindeck and therefore running less 3-drops (7) and more 1-drops (6 discard main): Click
As for the gy hate I like Nihil Spellbomb the most. It's the most versatile of them which is why I like it even though it may not be the best against specific decks. At worst it draws you a card which is not terrible and it makes your Goyf bigger. On the other hand I don't like Rakdos Charm. It does more things but neither of them really good-it's slow gy hate and it might be even too late against many decks on many occasions.
I'm actually liking Faerie Macabre. It's pure tempo early so you can advance your board while disrupting the GY, it's a hit off Liliana/Kolaghan's which can even rebuy the GY hate mode, it's instant, it's easy Ooze fuel, it's a flying blocker, it's a better BBE hit than Spellbomb, and it's selective hate so it keeps Goyf pumped. What I really like about it though is that it's good late and good in multiples. Unlike something like Rakdos Charm or Nihil Spellbomb, when you don't need the GY hate anymore you can convert it into board state instead.
That card does not serve for our need of a GY hate. We want a GY hate that can deal with the whole GY, not just 2 cards. Its not serving its purpose as a GY hate 95 % of the time. How is it tempo? You are discaring the card, not playing it. You don't advance on board. Honestly, I'd like a random card from our deck more than that 2/2 flyer off of BBE. And its a horrible topdeck.
And yeah, ALyius, I think Jund needs to do something about burn. BBE is so bad in that matchup, she's always just too slow. It also made searing blaze good against us, it kills everything except Goyf.
I think the answer to Burn is just having lots of small edges. An additional pain free land, a Duress over a Thoughtseize, more Brutality, and so on. On the subject of Duress, I'm loving it right now. It hits so many targets that IoK misses: Jace, CoCo, Karn, Scapeshift, and more. But it also saves life. My discard suite right now is something like 1 IoK, 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Duress, 3 Brutality, 4 Liliana, 2 Kolaghans. I could go for another 1 mana discard (probably a Thoughtseize) but I would need to find another cut for it
A list with 25 lands, interesting manabase in 5 manlands total and 3 Treetops (only 17 resources for black mana though, I really would love a Twilight Mire in here): Click
Another list with 24 lands, skimping on LtLH maindeck and therefore running less 3-drops (7) and more 1-drops (6 discard main): Click
The 25 land deck is interesting, it's playing with an idea I've thought about a bit. It runs 2 Blood Crypt and 1 Overgrown Tomb. The primary reason for this is that discard/bolt is T1. Jund is really a b/r deck splashing green so this makes a lot of sense to me. The real issue is that Raging Ravine, Treetop Village, and Ooze are all greedy for green mana which is why we generally double up on Tomb. Note that this also allows for a Blood Crypt/Forest opening which casts all of our T1/T2 cards.
In the 25 land list there's 17 black, 17 red, and 17 green. I feel like -1 Treetop, +1 Kessig Wolf Run and swapping a Bloodstained Mire for a Twilight Mire would be good there.
No, the ideal almost painless 2 land combo is swamp + Stomping Ground. If you have Blood Crypt/Forest you cant cast terminate.
Oops, I forgot about Terminate/Dreadbore because I tend to not think of them as t2 plays. Usually if you have any other removal in hand you would prefer to cast it first since those two are so broad.
That card does not serve for our need of a GY hate. We want a GY hate that can deal with the whole GY, not just 2 cards. Its not serving its purpose as a GY hate 95 % of the time. How is it tempo? You are discaring the card, not playing it. You don't advance on board. Honestly, I'd like a random card from our deck more than that 2/2 flyer off of BBE. And its a horrible topdeck.
It has worked for me. It doesn't nuke the whole GY which can be a drawback against some matchups, but against others it's still sufficient enough. It's tempo because it doesn't require any other resources (other than the card) to interact. Even as early as T2 you can progress your board and still deal with an opposing GY, or avoid the need to leave mana up in order to make spellbomb good. One corner case scenario is that a card like Nihil Spellbomb tends to be bad against Living End since they'll sideboard into Leyline of Sanctity and that stops the Spellbomb.
Well I appreciate it guys. That’s why I like these forums. I’ve been really unimpressed with the spellbomb but I guess I’ve been looking at it the wrong way. I wonder why we used to not play it? I mean, once we got Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze became printed in a modern legal set we pretty much had the GY covered, and I guess Dredge and Hollow One and whatnot weren’t around at the time. I answered my own question.
I just remember back in the day if you wanted GY hate it was either Rakdos or Jund Charm.
Thanks for the responses!
Edit: Well, I just searched through old tournament reports for Jund decks with spellbomb, and there were plenty. Even in 2012-2015 when I used to play Jund. Mind you there was plenty of both Rakdos and Jund Charms, but a lot of decks had at least a singleton spellbomb. I guess I was just the only scrub not running it. You live, you learn.
Thrun is good if not for the fact that we have a ton to bring in against control and can only board out so many things. I haven't been running Thrun and managed to beat UW Control a couple of times since the unbanning. The matchup is difficult but very possible even without Thrun. I think it's a metacall to be honest.
Have people agreed in a manabase yet? I've seen a whole lot of different things, a variety of manlands, filters, basics, not even the number of lands has been the same list to list. I have everything except the manlands and some number of Blackcleave Cliffs (which I'm going to borrow these lands), but I kind of need to know what stuff I actually need.
Nah, things are still in flux. People are seeing success with both 24 and 25 lands, some run Treetop, some run 3 basics, some run 4 basics split between 2-2 Swamp/Forest, 2-1-1 Swamp/Forest/Mountain, other Blooming Marsh, Twilight Mire etc.
Hi all!
Won 10-players tournament yesterday (3-1-0) with my own version of Jund. =) Need to say that I don't have Blackcleave Cliffs, Bobs, Fulminator Mages, Bloodstained Mire and have only two Verdant Catacombs. But I really don't want Bobs here.
Match 1: vs. Grixis Control (with Jace). 1-1-1
1st game I lost because of absence of red basic land (he killed my lands with Field of Ruin) and one mistake while using Scavenging Ooze with only 1 untapped green mana. Then I sided in Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, Choke and Thrun. Played Cage on turn 1 and Choke on turn 3. Then I played Thrun at one moment and won the game. We started 3rd game but time ended.
Match 2: vs. UB Prowess. 2-0
It was some kind of aggro deck with prowess creatures and Kitesail Firebooters. Easy win.
Match 3: vs. Abzan Rally. 2-0
Just killed sacrifice outlets and inquisitioned out Rallys. Played 3 Tarmos (one from Elf) and won 1st game. Then sided in gravehate, Brutality and Anger and won again.
Match 4: vs. Grixis Death Shadow. 2-1
Won game 1, ending with 2 Tarmos vs one Wraith while opp had 3 life. Sided in 3 Blood Moon, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 2 Kitchen Finks and 1 Engineered Explosives. Sided out 2 Trackers, 1 Liliana, 1 Elf, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Ooze. Lost game 2. Then won game 3 killing 2 Shadows with Maelstrom Pulse.
After that tournament added 1 Mountain instead of Dragonskull Summit. This is current list:
That hand would be awesome if those pulses are pushes.
Can someone tell me why we want Spellbomb over Rakdos Charm?
I just really don’t like that card in Jund. I mean, it’s like the “seals” in that you play it and then it’s ready to go when you need it, but we still really want that cantrip which costs B. Sure it can come down a turn sooner. But I don’t like them knowing about it and being able to play around it. I’ve Krosan Gripped a truly disproportionate amount of Relics and Spellbombs when playing Living End. And if I can’t do that, I just wait to start cycling until I find one of my Ingot Chewers, or I just start hardcasting. I like being able to surprise the GY player, or bluff them holding up BR once I’ve used a charm on them previously. I like the utility of charm. I like it against Mardu Pyromancer because it provides some crucial GY hate against Linger Souls and Bedlam Reveler, or some utility in that it gives me some reach if I need to close out the game. I don’t think I would side in spellbomb in that MU. Charm could be useful against Humans and Fish (think vial, Master of Waves) if you happened to have some extra room when sideboarding. Of course it’s good against GY strategies, that’s the point. But you also get some extra cards against Tron, Affinity, and Lantern.
I like the utility of Charm. If it’s the wrong move can someone please explain why? I know we used to run it way back when, but back then it also had the extra utility against Twin (edit: and Melira Pod! Dang, I forgot how good charm used to be). Speaking of Twin, I miss it. I always did really well against it with Jund.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I rarely find the other 2 modes of the Charm useful. Artifact hate? We have KCommand, Pulse, Decay and Grudge. Pinging the opponent? This is not relevant surely 90 % of the time at least and I really don't seek that against go-wide strategies as opposed to a sweeper.
Spellbomb is amazing against Mardu Pyromancer. Charm is incredibly bad.
You are speaking about Living End and are probably biased due to that. Against Living End Rakdos Charm is an ok card to have. However, Spellbomb is good here as well. If you wait until you find an answer for it, you are likely behind at that point. However, not in attrition based matchups. Its basically the same as if you would side in Surgical against Souls. Its incredibly bad.
Spellbomb is the most versatile GY hate there is which can come in against every matchup if you like. And the single reason for that is because you have the effect on turn 1 onwards and you can draw a card off of it. For a goodstuff midrange deck, this is the best GY hate we can have IMO.
Ofc there are other cases where we want some Cages too. However, I would never side them in against Mardu decks or Lingering Souls decks. You want them against CoCo decks and real GY based decks like Storm and Dredge. Thats where Cage is showing stronger performancer than Spellbomb. But other than that, Spellbomb is the number 1 GY hate card.
CB and Finks do not serve the same purpose necessarily so what do you mean?
For example against Burn, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are cards you remove from your deck, then you bring life gain, but you don't play 6 or 7 of those kind of cards in your SB, so bringing Nihil Spellbomb to find them is a good option too (and it grows the Goyf)
Gus
I'm actually liking Faerie Macabre. It's pure tempo early so you can advance your board while disrupting the GY, it's a hit off Liliana/Kolaghan's which can even rebuy the GY hate mode, it's instant, it's easy Ooze fuel, it's a flying blocker, it's a better BBE hit than Spellbomb, and it's selective hate so it keeps Goyf pumped. What I really like about it though is that it's good late and good in multiples. Unlike something like Rakdos Charm or Nihil Spellbomb, when you don't need the GY hate anymore you can convert it into board state instead.
A list with 25 lands, interesting manabase in 5 manlands total and 3 Treetops (only 17 resources for black mana though, I really would love a Twilight Mire in here): Click
Another list with 24 lands, skimping on LtLH maindeck and therefore running less 3-drops (7) and more 1-drops (6 discard main): Click
That card does not serve for our need of a GY hate. We want a GY hate that can deal with the whole GY, not just 2 cards. Its not serving its purpose as a GY hate 95 % of the time. How is it tempo? You are discaring the card, not playing it. You don't advance on board. Honestly, I'd like a random card from our deck more than that 2/2 flyer off of BBE. And its a horrible topdeck.
I think the answer to Burn is just having lots of small edges. An additional pain free land, a Duress over a Thoughtseize, more Brutality, and so on. On the subject of Duress, I'm loving it right now. It hits so many targets that IoK misses: Jace, CoCo, Karn, Scapeshift, and more. But it also saves life. My discard suite right now is something like 1 IoK, 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Duress, 3 Brutality, 4 Liliana, 2 Kolaghans. I could go for another 1 mana discard (probably a Thoughtseize) but I would need to find another cut for it
The 25 land deck is interesting, it's playing with an idea I've thought about a bit. It runs 2 Blood Crypt and 1 Overgrown Tomb. The primary reason for this is that discard/bolt is T1. Jund is really a b/r deck splashing green so this makes a lot of sense to me. The real issue is that Raging Ravine, Treetop Village, and Ooze are all greedy for green mana which is why we generally double up on Tomb. Note that this also allows for a Blood Crypt/Forest opening which casts all of our T1/T2 cards.
In the 25 land list there's 17 black, 17 red, and 17 green. I feel like -1 Treetop, +1 Kessig Wolf Run and swapping a Bloodstained Mire for a Twilight Mire would be good there.
Oops, I forgot about Terminate/Dreadbore because I tend to not think of them as t2 plays. Usually if you have any other removal in hand you would prefer to cast it first since those two are so broad.
It has worked for me. It doesn't nuke the whole GY which can be a drawback against some matchups, but against others it's still sufficient enough. It's tempo because it doesn't require any other resources (other than the card) to interact. Even as early as T2 you can progress your board and still deal with an opposing GY, or avoid the need to leave mana up in order to make spellbomb good. One corner case scenario is that a card like Nihil Spellbomb tends to be bad against Living End since they'll sideboard into Leyline of Sanctity and that stops the Spellbomb.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I just remember back in the day if you wanted GY hate it was either Rakdos or Jund Charm.
Thanks for the responses!
Edit: Well, I just searched through old tournament reports for Jund decks with spellbomb, and there were plenty. Even in 2012-2015 when I used to play Jund. Mind you there was plenty of both Rakdos and Jund Charms, but a lot of decks had at least a singleton spellbomb. I guess I was just the only scrub not running it. You live, you learn.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Nope, BBE is already a ton of value. Trust in your piloting.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Won 10-players tournament yesterday (3-1-0) with my own version of Jund. =) Need to say that I don't have Blackcleave Cliffs, Bobs, Fulminator Mages, Bloodstained Mire and have only two Verdant Catacombs. But I really don't want Bobs here.
1 Blood Crypt
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
3 Raging Ravine
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tireless Tracker
Instants (10)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
Sorceries (7)
1 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Match 1: vs. Grixis Control (with Jace). 1-1-1
1st game I lost because of absence of red basic land (he killed my lands with Field of Ruin) and one mistake while using Scavenging Ooze with only 1 untapped green mana. Then I sided in Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, Choke and Thrun. Played Cage on turn 1 and Choke on turn 3. Then I played Thrun at one moment and won the game. We started 3rd game but time ended.
Match 2: vs. UB Prowess. 2-0
It was some kind of aggro deck with prowess creatures and Kitesail Firebooters. Easy win.
Match 3: vs. Abzan Rally. 2-0
Just killed sacrifice outlets and inquisitioned out Rallys. Played 3 Tarmos (one from Elf) and won 1st game. Then sided in gravehate, Brutality and Anger and won again.
Match 4: vs. Grixis Death Shadow. 2-1
Won game 1, ending with 2 Tarmos vs one Wraith while opp had 3 life. Sided in 3 Blood Moon, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 2 Kitchen Finks and 1 Engineered Explosives. Sided out 2 Trackers, 1 Liliana, 1 Elf, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Ooze. Lost game 2. Then won game 3 killing 2 Shadows with Maelstrom Pulse.
After that tournament added 1 Mountain instead of Dragonskull Summit. This is current list:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tireless Tracker
Instants (10)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
Sorceries (7)
1 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
Lilianas (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
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