I don’t know if FoR is the right call for us. Right now I’m just playtesting it as a 1-of. It won me a game against American Jace control, but a GQ or Tec Edge would have also.
What I'm finding is that FoR can go in any deck, but you have to make a choice with your manabase. More pain lets you include FoR, but less pain helps in other matchups. Basically, do you want to incorporate FoR with more fetch/shock or leave it out and use more fast lands. FoR has also caused me issues in casting Liliana on occasion.
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Thanks for the info, FlyingDelver!
It would be nice to know how many lands were run by each list; I understand (from Reid Duke's article) that a higher number of man-lands were run back then, thus the recent "addition" of treetop village. Maybe lists with 25 lands run an extra man-land?
Regards!
At the beginning of 2012, most 24 land lists ran 3 Treetop and 1 Ravine, which is 3 manlands total. However, that only lasted about until March of 2012. At that point more and more lists ran 25 lands, even 26 often! And it seems that 3-4 Treetop and 2 Ravine was the trend then. I have to say that Reid Duke ran 26 lands in this period:
So from end 2011 until March 2012 this was the "standard" manabase:
4 Blackcleave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Corge
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
3 Treetop
1 Ravine
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
Which sums up as 15 black sources, 14 red sources and 17 green sources. That makes sense since most lists ran more Finks than LoTV or at least equally as much.
Then the concensus seemed to be more and more to run 25 lands.
And that manabase looked like this:
4 Blackcleave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Copperline Corge
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Treetop
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant
Which is 15 black sources, 14 red sources and 18 green sources. We have lots of recognizable names here in the form of Jaberwocki and Butakov which all ran 25 lands. Yuuya Watanabe ran 25 lands at Worlds.
I think, from this data, we can see, that obviously the manabase needs to be constructed differently now. We have a lot more need for black than green, as we dont run Finks. Therefore we cant run 6 manlands, however, I would totally play 4 manlands in a 25 land build. Thats totally doable. And the 3 Ravine/1 Treetop split looks good here to me.
I also am really settle on 25 lands for now and test with that. Like I said before, if we flood too much and if the clunky spells are not suited for the meta going onward, we need to adjust our manacurve, not just cut a needed land and call it a day. If you want to be lower to the ground and run 24 lands (which is totally reasonable with the aggro builds going around now) its neede to lower the CMC3 drop amount and higher the 1 drop amount.
Corey Baumeister just published an article on his takes on the Bloodbraid Jund build. It's based on Reid Duke's build. He cut all fatal pushes in favour of Pulse. He also cut one Liliana of the Veil, on which he claims to be the wrong decision going forward.
I Think we Need to see how the Meta developes for most of the questions, we Need to know what the Current jace Shell is, and how much tron is played. Until than every One should (in paper) focus in his lokal Meta, since those Take a while to Change and we know what to expect.
I called it a day after the unbanning
Grixis control will be the best jace shell. Watch.
First, sorry for my bad english, i´m from Brazil and go to play FNM tomorrow with Jund. And im so confused to what manabase to play. Im Tendencious to play RaRa and one TTV. Im Running:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Blacleve cliff
4 LOTV
1 LTLH
3 IOK
2 TS
1 Decay
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
1 Pulse
2 Komand
4 Bolt
1 Push
4 Goyf
4 BB
4 Bob
2 Scooze
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Lands are an interesting thing. Over the past few years I've made some Magic simulators for various decks, the main use for them was to figure optimal mana curves. If you dig through the Knightfall thread you can find my initial work on it (back when it was a tier 3 deck... my conclusions closely match the now consensus list), and if you look into the Legacy forums you'll see me having taken the same approach to Burn. This simulator has played many millions of games, and what I found was that with a couple 4 drops and a relatively low curve your optimal count is actually closer to 27 lands and a handful of mana sinks. The real tension is in consistency vs power. More lands is more consistent but also has less powerful draws on average.
It's research that has been very interesting to me in how I build decks, but I still find myself trending towards 25 in Jund because I like having the additional interaction vs the additional consistency. Going back to the card filtering argument with Brutality and Liliana I wouldn't mind testing a 27 land build. Such a build might be a good answer to the Field of Ruin question as well.
I’m not sure 1 “best Jace shell” will be determined, as Blue Moon, Azorius, Grixis, and Jeskai each have their advantages and could be the best deck depending on the meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Lands are an interesting thing. Over the past few years I've made some Magic simulators for various decks, the main use for them was to figure optimal mana curves. If you dig through the Knightfall thread you can find my initial work on it (back when it was a tier 3 deck... my conclusions closely match the now consensus list), and if you look into the Legacy forums you'll see me having taken the same approach to Burn. This simulator has played many millions of games, and what I found was that with a couple 4 drops and a relatively low curve your optimal count is actually closer to 27 lands and a handful of mana sinks. The real tension is in consistency vs power. More lands is more consistent but also has less powerful draws on average.
It's research that has been very interesting to me in how I build decks, but I still find myself trending towards 25 in Jund because I like having the additional interaction vs the additional consistency. Going back to the card filtering argument with Brutality and Liliana I wouldn't mind testing a 27 land build. Such a build might be a good answer to the Field of Ruin question as well.
Correct me if I am wrong, but from the context and what I understand, you assume a 26 manabase for Jund as baseline? Actually, the debate now is whether or not to run 24 or 25 lands.
First, sorry for my bad english, i´m from Brazil and go to play FNM tomorrow with Jund. And im so confused to what manabase to play. Im Tendencious to play RaRa and one TTV. Im Running:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Blacleve cliff
4 LOTV
1 LTLH
3 IOK
2 TS
1 Decay
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
1 Pulse
2 Komand
4 Bolt
1 Push
4 Goyf
4 BB
4 Bob
2 Scooze
Correct me if I am wrong, but from the context and what I understand, you assume a 26 manabase for Jund as baseline? Actually, the debate now is whether or not to run 24 or 25 lands.
Probably. It would need testing, but my experience has been that people often play fewer lands than they should. Also with Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Veil functioning like Brainstorm and providing resource conversion (but only being able to eliminate an excess resource, rather than gain one you're short on), being high on lands would be a good thing when the deck is moving to relying more on 3 and 4 drops.
If nothing else, that's going to be my starting point. There's even a natural hole in the curve. It's important to have access to early bolt/push/discard, but t2 tends to be weaker as you don't often want to slam a t2 bob or ooze (Brutality is the big T2 play now). Then you want plays on T3 and T4. So it would be possible to include cards like some cycling lands as resources you can either pitch, use as cipt mana, or cycle away. I think there could be merit to it, it's just a matter of figuring out where the cuts should be. My counterargument to this approach right now is that it makes you lean harder on creature lands and that means an increased vulnerability to Field of Ruin from opposing players.
If you compare the Jund decklists with the ones in the past, they had about 11 three drops, 8 two drops and 10 one drops when running 25 lands. Since we now run about 10 one drops, 13 two drops and 8 three drops I think that 25 is the highest we need to consider.
24 lands is more on the additional interaction side now like you said. Running 25 lands would mean to be more on the consistant side, not the additional interaction side.
Am experimenting with playing 25 lands in general, and boarding out a Mountain on the draw and against fast aggro decks. Therefore I also cut 1 BBE, to lower the curve a bit, and a 4 drop might be too clunky against them.
Against UW I would leave in Decay and leave out the second CB. Here making landdrops is good, as the game will progress longer, therefore I keep the Mountain. Also FoR obviously.
I am not sure about this plan. But BBE seems too slow here, and LoTV is very bad against the most creatures in their deck. We want to draw action, therefore I cut BBE and get to shave a land. Anger is great, GY hate is great and so is CB/TS. Grudge can only hit Hollow One, but I like the extra outs against a fast start from their side. Might even bring in both Grudges.
What I'm finding is that FoR can go in any deck, but you have to make a choice with your manabase. More pain lets you include FoR, but less pain helps in other matchups. Basically, do you want to incorporate FoR with more fetch/shock or leave it out and use more fast lands. FoR has also caused me issues in casting Liliana on occasion.
I'm not convinced it's worth it yet.
At the beginning of 2012, most 24 land lists ran 3 Treetop and 1 Ravine, which is 3 manlands total. However, that only lasted about until March of 2012. At that point more and more lists ran 25 lands, even 26 often! And it seems that 3-4 Treetop and 2 Ravine was the trend then. I have to say that Reid Duke ran 26 lands in this period:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
16 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Blightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Terminate
4 Thoughtseize
3 OTHER SPELLS
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Terminate
2 Torpor Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine
So from end 2011 until March 2012 this was the "standard" manabase:
Which sums up as 15 black sources, 14 red sources and 17 green sources. That makes sense since most lists ran more Finks than LoTV or at least equally as much.
Then the concensus seemed to be more and more to run 25 lands.
And that manabase looked like this:
Which is 15 black sources, 14 red sources and 18 green sources. We have lots of recognizable names here in the form of Jaberwocki and Butakov which all ran 25 lands. Yuuya Watanabe ran 25 lands at Worlds.
I think, from this data, we can see, that obviously the manabase needs to be constructed differently now. We have a lot more need for black than green, as we dont run Finks. Therefore we cant run 6 manlands, however, I would totally play 4 manlands in a 25 land build. Thats totally doable. And the 3 Ravine/1 Treetop split looks good here to me.
I also am really settle on 25 lands for now and test with that. Like I said before, if we flood too much and if the clunky spells are not suited for the meta going onward, we need to adjust our manacurve, not just cut a needed land and call it a day. If you want to be lower to the ground and run 24 lands (which is totally reasonable with the aggro builds going around now) its neede to lower the CMC3 drop amount and higher the 1 drop amount.
Actually in his text he says this was a complete wrong decision (in his testing for the PT) and LoTV should absolutely be a 4-of.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
To rain ******* horror against small creature decks
Please don't cut it over other boardwipes. That card is nuts. We already explained about it a few pages back
I called it a day after the unbanning
Grixis control will be the best jace shell. Watch.
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Blacleve cliff
4 LOTV
1 LTLH
3 IOK
2 TS
1 Decay
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
1 Pulse
2 Komand
4 Bolt
1 Push
4 Goyf
4 BB
4 Bob
2 Scooze
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
1 Grim Lavamncer
3 Brutality
2 Nihil
1 Finks
1 LTLH
2 Anger
2 grudge
3 FM
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Lands are an interesting thing. Over the past few years I've made some Magic simulators for various decks, the main use for them was to figure optimal mana curves. If you dig through the Knightfall thread you can find my initial work on it (back when it was a tier 3 deck... my conclusions closely match the now consensus list), and if you look into the Legacy forums you'll see me having taken the same approach to Burn. This simulator has played many millions of games, and what I found was that with a couple 4 drops and a relatively low curve your optimal count is actually closer to 27 lands and a handful of mana sinks. The real tension is in consistency vs power. More lands is more consistent but also has less powerful draws on average.
It's research that has been very interesting to me in how I build decks, but I still find myself trending towards 25 in Jund because I like having the additional interaction vs the additional consistency. Going back to the card filtering argument with Brutality and Liliana I wouldn't mind testing a 27 land build. Such a build might be a good answer to the Field of Ruin question as well.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Correct me if I am wrong, but from the context and what I understand, you assume a 26 manabase for Jund as baseline? Actually, the debate now is whether or not to run 24 or 25 lands.
That list and manabase looks good. I'd play that.
Probably. It would need testing, but my experience has been that people often play fewer lands than they should. Also with Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Veil functioning like Brainstorm and providing resource conversion (but only being able to eliminate an excess resource, rather than gain one you're short on), being high on lands would be a good thing when the deck is moving to relying more on 3 and 4 drops.
If nothing else, that's going to be my starting point. There's even a natural hole in the curve. It's important to have access to early bolt/push/discard, but t2 tends to be weaker as you don't often want to slam a t2 bob or ooze (Brutality is the big T2 play now). Then you want plays on T3 and T4. So it would be possible to include cards like some cycling lands as resources you can either pitch, use as cipt mana, or cycle away. I think there could be merit to it, it's just a matter of figuring out where the cuts should be. My counterargument to this approach right now is that it makes you lean harder on creature lands and that means an increased vulnerability to Field of Ruin from opposing players.
24 lands is more on the additional interaction side now like you said. Running 25 lands would mean to be more on the consistant side, not the additional interaction side.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Twilight Mire
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
And my plan for SB are (only including popular matchups right now):
Affinity
-2 TS
-4 LoTV
-1 Mountain
-1 BBE
+2 Grudge
+1 Anger
+1 Grim
+1 LtLH
+3 Fulminator
Am experimenting with playing 25 lands in general, and boarding out a Mountain on the draw and against fast aggro decks. Therefore I also cut 1 BBE, to lower the curve a bit, and a 4 drop might be too clunky against them.
Burn
-2 TS
-4 Bob
-1 LtLH
+2 CB
+1 Finks
+1 Anger
+3 Fulminator
Here I think Mountain is too important to fetch for red without taking much dmg, so that stays.
Mirror
-3 IOK
-2 TS
+1 LtLH
+1 Grim
+1 Finks
+2 Fulminator
Control
-1 Push
-2 Terminate
-1 Decay
-4 Bolt
+3 Fulminator
+2 CB
+1 TS
+1 Finks
+1 LtLH
Against UW I would leave in Decay and leave out the second CB. Here making landdrops is good, as the game will progress longer, therefore I keep the Mountain. Also FoR obviously.
BR Hollow One
-1 Decay
-4 LoTV
-2 BBE
-1 Mountain
+1 Anger
+2 Spellbomb
+1 Cage
+2 CB
+1 TS
+1 Grudge
I am not sure about this plan. But BBE seems too slow here, and LoTV is very bad against the most creatures in their deck. We want to draw action, therefore I cut BBE and get to shave a land. Anger is great, GY hate is great and so is CB/TS. Grudge can only hit Hollow One, but I like the extra outs against a fast start from their side. Might even bring in both Grudges.
Humans
-3 IOK
-2 TS
+1 Anger
+1 Grim
+2 CB
+1 LtLH
Tron
-1 Push
-2 Terminate
-1 LtLH
-1 Decay
-1 IOK
+3 Fulminator
+2 Grudge
+1 TS
Mardu
-3 IOK
-2 TS
-2 LoTV
+1 Anger
+2 Spellbomb
+1 LtLH
+1 Grim
+1 Finks
+1 Fulminator Mage
Storm
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Decay
-2 Terminate
-1 Mountain
-1 LtLH
+2 Spellbomb
+1 Cage
+1 TS
+2 CB
+1 Anger
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
For your list, I would so something like this vs Ponza:
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Fulminator Mage
-2 Scavenging Ooze
-4 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Kolaghan's Command