Sigh, then run the mountain, obviously people have different fears.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.
4 FoR isn't required to take you off red. It's very feasible for a FoR to take you off red with only a single copy being drawn and used, and if you can't replace your red source with a mountain you can be proper effed. It's also a nice surprise for the opponent who thinks they can take you off red, leaves your double black intact, and you grab that basic mountain out of the deck to replace it, putting you barely behind on where you were.
I personally think, unless you dont fetch for basics against FoR decks, it doesnt really matter which basic you have for the overall meta, unless its 4 of them. Mountain helps against FoR a bit more, forest against BM a bit more.
We run 4 Blackcleave, 1 Blood, 1 Stomping and 3 Ravine as actual red sources. Solely statistically speaking, the odds of your opponent drawing more FoR than you natural red sources, is in our favor.
But of course, sometimes running a mountain can help. Its surely preference, which you feel more and less comfortable to face.
I personally think, unless you dont fetch for basics against FoR decks, it doesnt really matter which basic you have for the overall meta, unless its 4 of them. Mountain helps against FoR a bit more, forest against BM a bit more.
We run 4 Blackcleave, 1 Blood, 1 Stomping and 3 Ravine as actual red sources. Solely statistically speaking, the odds of your opponent drawing more FoR than you natural red sources, is in our favor.
But of course, sometimes running a mountain can help. Its surely preference, which you feel more and less comfortable to face.
I also don't really mind having a painless source of red mana if necessary. I think it's a lot of upside for not a ton of downside (IMO).
I personally think, unless you dont fetch for basics against FoR decks, it doesnt really matter which basic you have for the overall meta, unless its 4 of them. Mountain helps against FoR a bit more, forest against BM a bit more.
We run 4 Blackcleave, 1 Blood, 1 Stomping and 3 Ravine as actual red sources. Solely statistically speaking, the odds of your opponent drawing more FoR than you natural red sources, is in our favor.
But of course, sometimes running a mountain can help. Its surely preference, which you feel more and less comfortable to face.
I also don't really mind having a painless source of red mana if necessary. I think it's a lot of upside for not a ton of downside (IMO).
I think it is a lot of downside (esp. if you run twilight mire) for little upside. It is bad against moon decks, bad to draw, and in most cases bad to fetch.
I've already played multiple games where the basic mountain kept me able to cast red spells, so I'll keep doing it.
What makes a basic mountain bad against moon decks, exactly?
Sooner or later we will find a concensus about how high the curve actually will be. But what I know, in lists with a manacurve like the ones most people begin to test with, I never found significant ones running less than 25 lands historically that didnt run Deathrite.
Remember that Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality are both great at smoothing your curve.
It's for the exact reasons Delver stated, we have so many red sources already that it's hard to take us off red completely. We splash red, we're primarily a black deck but we also want to see a heavy amount of green sources.
Sooner or later we will find a concensus about how high the curve actually will be. But what I know, in lists with a manacurve like the ones most people begin to test with, I never found significant ones running less than 25 lands historically that didnt run Deathrite.
Remember that Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality are both great at smoothing your curve.
But is that enough is the question? If you face 2 Hollow Ones turn 2?
It's not just about raw numbers, in terms of red sources and running the Mountain. In Reid's match against Paul he was running into issues where he had already fetched both red shock lands and had more than 3 lands in play, meaning that all of his red sources were coming into play tapped. Not only was he losing tempo there, but it gave Paul more time to either find Field of Ruin or just activate the ones on board. I would sooner play more fetches than basics if I'm worried about Blood Moon, and because of the way our spells make use of green mana having two forests can lead to some really uncomfortable hands.
I think that the red stopped being a splash when we went to 4 BBE and 4 Bolts.
Sooner or later we will find a concensus about how high the curve actually will be. But what I know, in lists with a manacurve like the ones most people begin to test with, I never found significant ones running less than 25 lands historically that didnt run Deathrite.
Remember that Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality are both great at smoothing your curve.
But is that enough is the question? If you face 2 Hollow Ones turn 2?
I despise Hollow One decks. Talk about pure variance thats out of the players hands and skills. There's an element of luck to every deck, but this deck's skill mainly comes from how to roll the dice as soon and as efficient as possible.
It's fighting on too many axis for Jund to handle, it has the artifact, the big body, the graveyard aspect, disruption, and gurmags that are awkward to answer due to Bloodghasts and Phoenix.
That's enough black sources for Lilly on 3, 2 forest 2 swamp to fight Blood Moon, 4 manlands, and still 17 Red sources. I would hardly consider 17 red sources a "splash" at this point, and it would be hard to color screw this configuration off single red.
The only big change I made was cutting a Stomping Ground for a Blood Crypt, and the reason I did that was to fit a single treetop in without screwing up the color balances.
It's not just about raw numbers, in terms of red sources and running the Mountain. In Reid's match against Paul he was running into issues where he had already fetched both red shock lands and had more than 3 lands in play, meaning that all of his red sources were coming into play tapped. Not only was he losing tempo there, but it gave Paul more time to either find Field of Ruin or just activate the ones on board. I would sooner play more fetches than basics if I'm worried about Blood Moon, and because of the way our spells make use of green mana having two forests can lead to some really uncomfortable hands.
I think that the red stopped being a splash when we went to 4 BBE and 4 Bolts.
That's enough black sources for Lilly on 3, 2 forest 2 swamp to fight Blood Moon, 4 manlands, and still 17 Red sources. I would hardly consider 17 red sources a "splash" at this point, and it would be hard to color screw this configuration off single red.
The only big change I made was cutting a Stomping Ground for a Blood Crypt, and the reason I did that was to fit a single treetop in without screwing up the color balances.
I like the mana distribution, but I'd rather fill my playset of Bloodstained Mire before adding a second Blood Crypt or running the secon Wooded Foothills. That way you have an extra green source by cutting Blood Crypt for Bloodstained as well.
That's enough black sources for Lilly on 3, 2 forest 2 swamp to fight Blood Moon, 4 manlands, and still 17 Red sources. I would hardly consider 17 red sources a "splash" at this point, and it would be hard to color screw this configuration off single red.
The only big change I made was cutting a Stomping Ground for a Blood Crypt, and the reason I did that was to fit a single treetop in without screwing up the color balances.
I like the mana distribution, but I'd rather fill my playset of Bloodstained Mire before adding a second Blood Crypt or running the secon Wooded Foothills. That way you have an extra green source by cutting Blood Crypt for Bloodstained as well.
The issue with not adding the second bloodcrypt though is that it leaves us with only 1 fetchable red source (since we cut the stomping ground) which is counterproductive to my goal of becoming immune to FoR. Also, I think filling out the Bloodstained Mires over Wooded Foothills is fine overall, but there's a lot of Ponza and Blood Moons in my meta (and I think the current mtgo meta) so I really want to be able to get that basic forest.
Sigh, then run the mountain, obviously people have different fears.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.
Field of Ruin is seeing far more play than Blood Moon right now across several different kinds of decks. I don't understand the point of running a second forest over the first mountain largely because the only double green spell anyone is playing is Kitchen Finks. So again, why go that route? You really haven't provided much an explanation for why you want the 2nd forest over the first mountain that makes sense even under a Blood Moon that you fear so much.
I guess the most significant reasons would be to have more chance to draw a green source naturally (since you can't always fetch for every basic before BM comes down, and we are also playing less decays now) and secondly, due to Scavenging Ooze.
It is right that FoR is far more present in the meta than BM, and I think BM decks are not what we would call bad matchups. This would lead me personally more towards mountain than second forest.
That's enough black sources for Lilly on 3, 2 forest 2 swamp to fight Blood Moon, 4 manlands, and still 17 Red sources. I would hardly consider 17 red sources a "splash" at this point, and it would be hard to color screw this configuration off single red.
The only big change I made was cutting a Stomping Ground for a Blood Crypt, and the reason I did that was to fit a single treetop in without screwing up the color balances.
I like the mana distribution, but I'd rather fill my playset of Bloodstained Mire before adding a second Blood Crypt or running the secon Wooded Foothills. That way you have an extra green source by cutting Blood Crypt for Bloodstained as well.
The issue with not adding the second bloodcrypt though is that it leaves us with only 1 fetchable red source (since we cut the stomping ground) which is counterproductive to my goal of becoming immune to FoR. Also, I think filling out the Bloodstained Mires over Wooded Foothills is fine overall, but there's a lot of Ponza and Blood Moons in my meta (and I think the current mtgo meta) so I really want to be able to get that basic forest.
Ah my bad, didnt realize you cut Stomping, I would totally run Stomping over second Blood crypt. This would ofc lower your black sources, but I think stomping is too good in the deck, as it provides a very cheap way to have all 3 colours up with the swamp + stomping combo. This is very important for aggro matchups.
Sigh, then run the mountain, obviously people have different fears.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.
Field of Ruin is seeing far more play than Blood Moon right now across several different kinds of decks. I don't understand the point of running a second forest over the first mountain largely because the only double green spell anyone is playing is Kitchen Finks. So again, why go that route? You really haven't provided much an explanation for why you want the 2nd forest over the first mountain that makes sense even under a Blood Moon that you fear so much.
Running two forests doubles the chance of you drawing one naturally, AND a lot of the blood moon decks also run stone rain and/or molten rain. So if on turn 2 you fetch a forest to play out a goyf and they untap and stone rain your forest, you better hope they don't have a follow up bloodmoon.
Another reason is that green is more important now than it was pre-BBE is because BBE is very good against Blood Moon decks. It's very good against ponza, and very good against blue moon. And skred red decks too.
Sigh, then run the mountain, obviously people have different fears.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.
Field of Ruin is seeing far more play than Blood Moon right now across several different kinds of decks. I don't understand the point of running a second forest over the first mountain largely because the only double green spell anyone is playing is Kitchen Finks. So again, why go that route? You really haven't provided much an explanation for why you want the 2nd forest over the first mountain that makes sense even under a Blood Moon that you fear so much.
Running two forests doubles the chance of you drawing one naturally, AND a lot of the blood moon decks also run stone rain and/or molten rain. So if on turn 2 you fetch a forest to play out a goyf and they untap and stone rain your forest, you better hope they don't have a follow up bloodmoon.
Another reason is that green is more important now than it was pre-BBE is because BBE is very good against Blood Moon decks. It's very good against ponza, and very good against blue moon. And skred red decks too.
Unless you're running more discard, specifically Thoughtseize, those decks are going to hurt you regardless of whether you're running one or two forests. Even then, Ponza runs acceleration and Bloodbraid Elf themselves on top of a myriad of spells that hurt us. Blue Moon is likely going to play Spreading Seas or Field of Ruin alongside Blood Moon. They're just bad for our health. I don't see why the second forest matters that much in any of these corner cases. If they pop up, you're likely to lose anyway. I would just like to play magic through Field of Ruins, which is in almost every 2-color deck and even Jeskai and Esper control lists.
Played more games with Jund. God the deck is so good!
I also played a ton with blue decks, and it was rough. Right now a very disproportionate amount of players are either on Jace decks or those that prey on Jace decks. Somehow Jund is almost going under the radar. This meta is going to be rough unless you're a seasoned blue player.
I think playing the second deck in a format often feels like being the best deck, you go slightly under the radar. I actually think this was why Eldrazi Tron was so fantastic for a while, everyone was so focused on Grixis Shadow that it took several large tournaments to realize how powerful E-Tron was.
Players are finding it easier to prey on blue so I'm totally ok with it.
I have to say, blue matchups are feeling easier. BBE just continues to be absurd. I absolutely just trounced a jeskai player an hour ago. BBE is so fantastic against Jace unless they have backup removal.
Dropping a last hope and getting my BBE back and playing a third copy again is so busted.
I was reluctant to side out bolts at first, but we're better off just stripping their hands with CBs. I haven't felt a need for Dreadbores or copy number 2x of Maelstrom Pulse.
I accidentally realized I had 3x CBs in my sideboard instead of the 1x Thoughtseize, it's been an accidental pleasant surprise for postboard games.
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4 FoR isn't required to take you off red. It's very feasible for a FoR to take you off red with only a single copy being drawn and used, and if you can't replace your red source with a mountain you can be proper effed. It's also a nice surprise for the opponent who thinks they can take you off red, leaves your double black intact, and you grab that basic mountain out of the deck to replace it, putting you barely behind on where you were.
We run 4 Blackcleave, 1 Blood, 1 Stomping and 3 Ravine as actual red sources. Solely statistically speaking, the odds of your opponent drawing more FoR than you natural red sources, is in our favor.
But of course, sometimes running a mountain can help. Its surely preference, which you feel more and less comfortable to face.
I also don't really mind having a painless source of red mana if necessary. I think it's a lot of upside for not a ton of downside (IMO).
I've already played multiple games where the basic mountain kept me able to cast red spells, so I'll keep doing it.
What makes a basic mountain bad against moon decks, exactly?
Remember that Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality are both great at smoothing your curve.
But is that enough is the question? If you face 2 Hollow Ones turn 2?
I think that the red stopped being a splash when we went to 4 BBE and 4 Bolts.
Maybe you're right, maybe we did stop becoming a splash when we began to run 4x BBE.
I despise Hollow One decks. Talk about pure variance thats out of the players hands and skills. There's an element of luck to every deck, but this deck's skill mainly comes from how to roll the dice as soon and as efficient as possible.
It's fighting on too many axis for Jund to handle, it has the artifact, the big body, the graveyard aspect, disruption, and gurmags that are awkward to answer due to Bloodghasts and Phoenix.
4x Verdant
2x Wooded
2x Bloodstained
2x overgrown Tomb
2x Blood Crypt
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Treeptop
3x Raging Ravine
4x Blackcleave
1x Twilight Mire
You get:
19 Black
17 green
17 Red
That's enough black sources for Lilly on 3, 2 forest 2 swamp to fight Blood Moon, 4 manlands, and still 17 Red sources. I would hardly consider 17 red sources a "splash" at this point, and it would be hard to color screw this configuration off single red.
The only big change I made was cutting a Stomping Ground for a Blood Crypt, and the reason I did that was to fit a single treetop in without screwing up the color balances.
Thats certainly a very good point!
I like the mana distribution, but I'd rather fill my playset of Bloodstained Mire before adding a second Blood Crypt or running the secon Wooded Foothills. That way you have an extra green source by cutting Blood Crypt for Bloodstained as well.
The issue with not adding the second bloodcrypt though is that it leaves us with only 1 fetchable red source (since we cut the stomping ground) which is counterproductive to my goal of becoming immune to FoR. Also, I think filling out the Bloodstained Mires over Wooded Foothills is fine overall, but there's a lot of Ponza and Blood Moons in my meta (and I think the current mtgo meta) so I really want to be able to get that basic forest.
Field of Ruin is seeing far more play than Blood Moon right now across several different kinds of decks. I don't understand the point of running a second forest over the first mountain largely because the only double green spell anyone is playing is Kitchen Finks. So again, why go that route? You really haven't provided much an explanation for why you want the 2nd forest over the first mountain that makes sense even under a Blood Moon that you fear so much.
It is right that FoR is far more present in the meta than BM, and I think BM decks are not what we would call bad matchups. This would lead me personally more towards mountain than second forest.
Ah my bad, didnt realize you cut Stomping, I would totally run Stomping over second Blood crypt. This would ofc lower your black sources, but I think stomping is too good in the deck, as it provides a very cheap way to have all 3 colours up with the swamp + stomping combo. This is very important for aggro matchups.
Running two forests doubles the chance of you drawing one naturally, AND a lot of the blood moon decks also run stone rain and/or molten rain. So if on turn 2 you fetch a forest to play out a goyf and they untap and stone rain your forest, you better hope they don't have a follow up bloodmoon.
Another reason is that green is more important now than it was pre-BBE is because BBE is very good against Blood Moon decks. It's very good against ponza, and very good against blue moon. And skred red decks too.
Unless you're running more discard, specifically Thoughtseize, those decks are going to hurt you regardless of whether you're running one or two forests. Even then, Ponza runs acceleration and Bloodbraid Elf themselves on top of a myriad of spells that hurt us. Blue Moon is likely going to play Spreading Seas or Field of Ruin alongside Blood Moon. They're just bad for our health. I don't see why the second forest matters that much in any of these corner cases. If they pop up, you're likely to lose anyway. I would just like to play magic through Field of Ruins, which is in almost every 2-color deck and even Jeskai and Esper control lists.
I also played a ton with blue decks, and it was rough. Right now a very disproportionate amount of players are either on Jace decks or those that prey on Jace decks. Somehow Jund is almost going under the radar. This meta is going to be rough unless you're a seasoned blue player.
I think playing the second deck in a format often feels like being the best deck, you go slightly under the radar. I actually think this was why Eldrazi Tron was so fantastic for a while, everyone was so focused on Grixis Shadow that it took several large tournaments to realize how powerful E-Tron was.
Players are finding it easier to prey on blue so I'm totally ok with it.
I have to say, blue matchups are feeling easier. BBE just continues to be absurd. I absolutely just trounced a jeskai player an hour ago. BBE is so fantastic against Jace unless they have backup removal.
Dropping a last hope and getting my BBE back and playing a third copy again is so busted.
I was reluctant to side out bolts at first, but we're better off just stripping their hands with CBs. I haven't felt a need for Dreadbores or copy number 2x of Maelstrom Pulse.
I accidentally realized I had 3x CBs in my sideboard instead of the 1x Thoughtseize, it's been an accidental pleasant surprise for postboard games.