My meta is burn heavy... 2 Brutality 2 finks or a 3/1 split? Or should I consider Feed the Clan/Life Goes on?
Is pithing needle a good call for Jace or very narrow? (My meta doesn't have Jace decks beacause of the price barrier however I expect many Jund mirrors).
Also Fulminator 2 occasional Tron decks. However they seem good against ravines, colonnades etc
My Sb is same as Delvers except Hazoret over Thrun and minus one LtLH for one more burn hate
CB is the best card against Burn, so totally 3 copies of CB.
Exactly more swarm decks in the future (which will happen as Spsiegel said) worries me when thinking about cutting removal. This is the reason I still play 2x Fatal Push. I could cut 1 and add Collective Brutality instead). It acts as a removal and will hit most stuff that Push would (it's pretty likely that creatures Collective Brutality doesn't hit Push also won't because you won't always have revolt).
I just want to give Collective Brutality more chance because of BBE. It's more versatile card which makes it less likely to be dead than some other cards (namely Push). If you miss on creature you can discard an opponent's card and vise versa or you can shock an opponent if he hes no cards in hand and no creatures in the play.
@Spsiegel1987: You play with 1x Push and 1x Collective Brutality in md. How does it feel? Does it make a cut of one Push in the favor of Brutality a sense to you?
Btw I agree with you that Jund with BBE is other dimension completely and so much better than the deck previously was.
CB can certainly help to merge discard and removal into one spell, which helps against aggro and also provides discard. The tip of the iceberg is that it works well with BBE. Makes sense to replace some discard/push with CBs.
Hey guys, I haven't been on mtgsalvation or played modern in ages. Since the BnR update, I have a revitalized interest in modern.
With that being said, I would like to chime in and mention that I really like FlyingDelver's list, except I'm running a Blooming Marsh over the mountain. Just preference really. I know with 4 BBE we want untapped lands on T4, but I think we have room for 1 more fastland. I was also considering making it a 9th fetchland, too.
As far as collective brutality goes, I suppose you might be able to go down to 2 and 2 1cmc discard for it, but I'm also thinking five 1cmc discard spells in the MD is the lowest we can go. I'm on the fence. I think that's the hardest thing for me to decide on, personally.
Yeah I'm not sure about a lot of my choices but I want to try them out. 25 lands feels like the safer route, and I do like the addition of the Mountain, especially because even 3-color control decks like grixis and jeskai are trying to run FoR. My 2 cents and logic on why I chose 3 KCommand over 2 Kcommand 1 LtLH main is that the real benefit that LtLH has over KCommand is being able to pick off x/1s and recur multiple times, if she were to survive. KCommand has the ability to reach Jace and can take your opponent down a card. I'm expecting a lot of people in my local meta to run Jace (i have a couple grixis control and u/w control friends) and so this 1 extra KCommand is hedging for that.
I'm also concerned about the number of discard in the main. When I was playing against my friend on Grixis Control with Jace I felt that I did better with the hands that had more discard than less. When I sided into duress and more brutalities and saw them I was in a lot better shape.
Nevertheless that's the 75 that I wanna try once they're legal on paper. I have a modern event that I can go to on Tuesday and Thursday so will probably attend both and give the list a shot.
One other thought that I had, do we still want 2 ancient grudges in the side? I don't seem to be siding them in a lot based on sideboard plans, plus now I have 3 KCommands in the main. It also seems like with the increased number of KCommands from both us and Grixis control that Lantern and Affinity will see less play?
I haven't really missed the 2nd copy of push yet, but I'm sure as I play more I will.
CB has been fine, its versatile and its at worst a shock to my opponents face. 5 Damage adds up though.
I somehow managed to keep answering and clearing opposing Tarmogoyfs but it still worries me since 1x decay and 1x push and 2 terminates is all I have outside of lotv.
Pulse has been a bigger deal postboard for me. K command is so gross, sometimes I'll attack into a Goyf with BBE, K command the Goyf down and bring back a creature that was put into the GY.
Playing Finks against Temur made me think that the card is relevant again.
I think I'm in agreeance with you guys that my 1 Grim Lava should be in the SB for the 2nd Scooze, but I'm still playing more before conceding that.
I like to play BBE when there's something on the board, but it depends how much mana I have open afterwards and whatnot. If we're both topdecking and the boards clear I'm just slamming her down though.
Playing with 4x bolts again feels so good, I love it. BBE being a hasty is godly. People don't want to counter her.
I haven't been this excited to play a deck in a long time, including when Jund Shadow first became a thing.
One other thought that I had, do we still want 2 ancient grudges in the side? I don't seem to be siding them in a lot based on sideboard plans, plus now I have 3 KCommands in the main. It also seems like with the increased number of KCommands from both us and Grixis control that Lantern and Affinity will see less play?
Its a good point. If you have 3 KCommand you can go down to 1 copy I suppose. However, despite I expect less Affinity and Lantern in the future, Grudge really helps against Tron to kill Wurmcoil with less resources.
Manlands got better now, mainly due to Jace. I really like Treetop Village (although I currently don't play it) because it's really good against Jace, being cheap and thus easy to activate.
There's a lot of field of ruins, but have you noticed how significantly more powerful ravine feels now with bbe?
I feel Ravine + Treetop have been feeling significantly more powerful due to Jace, not BBE actually.
BBE with ravine does feel strong, but especially against the Jace decks. The fact that she can cascade into a tarmogoyf, swing for three, next turn swing for 11 with ravine OR cascade into a removal spell like CB against a creature deck, escalate once, drain 2, kill your creature, swing for 7 next turn.
2015 I recall most Jund lists running 4x Ravine. I think it was somewhere near the end of 2015 Jund lists cut to 3x and went from 3x four drops to 2x four drops. I don't think I'll cut any Ravines or play 4 man lands unless we need 25 lands. 24 has been smooth, and I've flooded more than been starved.
The nice thing about BBE is that when she whiffs it's still getting rid of the bad topdecks we would have drawn.
I actually feel like it isn't just Jace making the lands better, although it certainly is good against them.
These blue decks are going to have to make changes, too, I don't think Jace can be slotted in so easily either, they have to play around with their verdict and cryptic command numbers.
Decks used to run more manlands when running 25 lands, sure. But I think it is somewhat a misconsception that if you just run fewer manlands, you will not get screwed (since one less tapped land right?). I think the actual landcount is important when talking about consistantly make landdrops, not the quality of the lands.
I am well aware that 24 lands works for most of you. It basically works 80 % of the time. But over the long run, statistically speaking, running 25 lands to really hit land #4 on turn 4 is definitely safer.
I don't think that in this short period of time you can say "24 land is fine".
If I play 5 games and had no issues with it then I could also say 24 lands is fine. But I personally trust Frank in this statistical approach and bet that this gets more sever if you play hundreds of games. And therefore I would not write off 25 lands this early.
I agree that you can't say that 24 lands is fine but just playing 5 games but I played a lot more than that. I've been testing a lot these few days and so far 24 lands build performs fine for me. It happened that I was screwed during that time too but there have been way more games where I was flooded. If this changes I would consider playing 25 lands but as long as 24 lands forks for me I don't see a reason to play 25.
Yeah sure, if we basically flood more than get screwed, 24 lands might be the better way.
You present concrete proof and backup data, Delver, no one is dismissing your idea
I still need way more games to really decide 24 lands is acceptable, but I'm not throwing away the idea of 25 lands.
There's some people on Facebook who want to test out cutting all the 1 mana discard for maindeck CBs. One guy got upset when I said that sounded like a horrible idea.
I haven't faced enough aggressive decks yet, I'm still not 100% confident on the aggressive builds Jund is heading towards.
Just ended up 9th place out of 133 people in the Saturday Modern Challenge on MTGO today. 6-2 overall. Threw away at least one game on a pretty loose mulligan decision, so falling just a bit short is kind of sad, but it is what it is.
My wins were against a guy who got disconnected and timed out, an As Foretold/Taking Turns deck that made top 8, some kind of 5c Saheeli/Felidar/value cards deck (playing Jace and BBE!), Bogles, Jund mirror, Burn
My losses were against Grixis Shadow and 5c Humans. Both of those are good matchups but it happens. The Humans loss in particular stings because that loss was clearly my fault, made some punts.
I think Fatal Push is too efficient against the aggressive decks to cut, but otherwise I want my removal to be pretty universal. I have no idea about Terminate over other options, but I wanted another instant speed card against big creatures. The one Terminate is definitely the worst card.
Grim Lavamancer and Treetop Village are awesome. IoK is amazing against nearly every deck and playing less than 4 is crazy. Raging Ravine is not nearly as good as it used to be. Jace is not very good against this deck, we have so many ways to pressure it. I'm pretty sure Dreadbore is wrong.
25 land was good, don't really want to cut one. There's no other 60th card I want badly in the maindeck.
I really don't get one Fatal Push. It doesn't seem to be a one-of kind of card. I would probably go up either one Terminate or one Abrupt Decay.
Having played Rock for ages with a single copy of Victim of Night, I almost reconsidered posting this, but it seems to me that VoN has a better claim to a one-of status with its ability to do more. Push does very little that Abrupt Decay doesn't do - and a won't do a great deal that AD will do - and Push doesn't do anything Terminate won't do - and won't do all of what Terminate can do - so I just don't see the lower cost as sufficient reason to run such a narrow card as a one-of.
Thanks for the all the discussion, definitely an exciting time. Am noticing that a lot of discussion are around inclusions that help in midrange grindfests, and am definitely looking forward to seeing how that refines over time with hundreds of matches. But in general, we know the type of matchup BBE will be good in, what I notice in with Jadine and Reid is their attention to the matchups outside of the JTMS sphere... the decks that will try to go under for example.
With an expected uptick in bolts across the board, running Confidant, or against Burn, cascading TS can be a game ender. In a grind down to topdecks, expect to often not have a real TS target and just get shocked, and another percentage where IoK would have served. Am definitely going to try more CB, tag some commands, breach and shift, etc. and shore up the burn matchup. For other tough matchups, CB very good against Dredge, removes Merfolk lords. Not super confident in CB, but definitely worth a try. Storm is an interesting concern, where you really want the discard, and BBE may never matter, but CB is pretty good there too. This is where Scavenging Ooze is so important, getting at Game1 Storm (am currently listing 2). Postboard you are going to drop so much removal, and not an unreasonable place to find more discard and ways to deal with tokens (Rakdos Charm?!).
On another note, am playing 25 lands, and have not seen a situation where Twilight Mire is better than Urborg, and have gotten twisted by TM enough to matter. With four+ creature lands, not too concerned about flood. A singleton Blooming Marsh perfectly fine, can't see complaining flipping that turn 4, and not any of the extra copies of Cliffs or a manland... turn 4 may not be the best turn to drop BBE anyway (Komplarens).
Grim Flayer is so enticing, not only setting up BBE, but likely a good hit off BBE as the likelihood of delirium by then is high... but it was nearly impossible to jam a few before with Dark Confidant (abzan), even though those two play perfectly as well. There just is not enough flex at the creature slot !
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CB is the best card against Burn, so totally 3 copies of CB.
CB can certainly help to merge discard and removal into one spell, which helps against aggro and also provides discard. The tip of the iceberg is that it works well with BBE. Makes sense to replace some discard/push with CBs.
With that being said, I would like to chime in and mention that I really like FlyingDelver's list, except I'm running a Blooming Marsh over the mountain. Just preference really. I know with 4 BBE we want untapped lands on T4, but I think we have room for 1 more fastland. I was also considering making it a 9th fetchland, too.
As far as collective brutality goes, I suppose you might be able to go down to 2 and 2 1cmc discard for it, but I'm also thinking five 1cmc discard spells in the MD is the lowest we can go. I'm on the fence. I think that's the hardest thing for me to decide on, personally.
I'm also concerned about the number of discard in the main. When I was playing against my friend on Grixis Control with Jace I felt that I did better with the hands that had more discard than less. When I sided into duress and more brutalities and saw them I was in a lot better shape.
Nevertheless that's the 75 that I wanna try once they're legal on paper. I have a modern event that I can go to on Tuesday and Thursday so will probably attend both and give the list a shot.
One other thought that I had, do we still want 2 ancient grudges in the side? I don't seem to be siding them in a lot based on sideboard plans, plus now I have 3 KCommands in the main. It also seems like with the increased number of KCommands from both us and Grixis control that Lantern and Affinity will see less play?
CB has been fine, its versatile and its at worst a shock to my opponents face. 5 Damage adds up though.
I somehow managed to keep answering and clearing opposing Tarmogoyfs but it still worries me since 1x decay and 1x push and 2 terminates is all I have outside of lotv.
Pulse has been a bigger deal postboard for me. K command is so gross, sometimes I'll attack into a Goyf with BBE, K command the Goyf down and bring back a creature that was put into the GY.
Playing Finks against Temur made me think that the card is relevant again.
I think I'm in agreeance with you guys that my 1 Grim Lava should be in the SB for the 2nd Scooze, but I'm still playing more before conceding that.
I like to play BBE when there's something on the board, but it depends how much mana I have open afterwards and whatnot. If we're both topdecking and the boards clear I'm just slamming her down though.
Playing with 4x bolts again feels so good, I love it. BBE being a hasty is godly. People don't want to counter her.
I haven't been this excited to play a deck in a long time, including when Jund Shadow first became a thing.
Its a good point. If you have 3 KCommand you can go down to 1 copy I suppose. However, despite I expect less Affinity and Lantern in the future, Grudge really helps against Tron to kill Wurmcoil with less resources.
I feel Ravine + Treetop have been feeling significantly more powerful due to Jace, not BBE actually.
The deck is so aggressive now. The dmg caused by manlands are just more significative.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Thats why I play it as my 25th land.
BBE with ravine does feel strong, but especially against the Jace decks. The fact that she can cascade into a tarmogoyf, swing for three, next turn swing for 11 with ravine OR cascade into a removal spell like CB against a creature deck, escalate once, drain 2, kill your creature, swing for 7 next turn.
The nice thing about BBE is that when she whiffs it's still getting rid of the bad topdecks we would have drawn.
I actually feel like it isn't just Jace making the lands better, although it certainly is good against them.
These blue decks are going to have to make changes, too, I don't think Jace can be slotted in so easily either, they have to play around with their verdict and cryptic command numbers.
I am well aware that 24 lands works for most of you. It basically works 80 % of the time. But over the long run, statistically speaking, running 25 lands to really hit land #4 on turn 4 is definitely safer.
I don't think that in this short period of time you can say "24 land is fine".
If I play 5 games and had no issues with it then I could also say 24 lands is fine. But I personally trust Frank in this statistical approach and bet that this gets more sever if you play hundreds of games. And therefore I would not write off 25 lands this early.
Yeah sure, if we basically flood more than get screwed, 24 lands might be the better way.
I still need way more games to really decide 24 lands is acceptable, but I'm not throwing away the idea of 25 lands.
There's some people on Facebook who want to test out cutting all the 1 mana discard for maindeck CBs. One guy got upset when I said that sounded like a horrible idea.
I haven't faced enough aggressive decks yet, I'm still not 100% confident on the aggressive builds Jund is heading towards.
Thats what I talked about the last few posts already.
Boarding out lands is definitely a thing I want to do more going onward.
My wins were against a guy who got disconnected and timed out, an As Foretold/Taking Turns deck that made top 8, some kind of 5c Saheeli/Felidar/value cards deck (playing Jace and BBE!), Bogles, Jund mirror, Burn
My losses were against Grixis Shadow and 5c Humans. Both of those are good matchups but it happens. The Humans loss in particular stings because that loss was clearly my fault, made some punts.
My list was reasonably stock:
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terminate
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
I think Fatal Push is too efficient against the aggressive decks to cut, but otherwise I want my removal to be pretty universal. I have no idea about Terminate over other options, but I wanted another instant speed card against big creatures. The one Terminate is definitely the worst card.
Grim Lavamancer and Treetop Village are awesome. IoK is amazing against nearly every deck and playing less than 4 is crazy. Raging Ravine is not nearly as good as it used to be. Jace is not very good against this deck, we have so many ways to pressure it. I'm pretty sure Dreadbore is wrong.
25 land was good, don't really want to cut one. There's no other 60th card I want badly in the maindeck.
Having played Rock for ages with a single copy of Victim of Night, I almost reconsidered posting this, but it seems to me that VoN has a better claim to a one-of status with its ability to do more. Push does very little that Abrupt Decay doesn't do - and a won't do a great deal that AD will do - and Push doesn't do anything Terminate won't do - and won't do all of what Terminate can do - so I just don't see the lower cost as sufficient reason to run such a narrow card as a one-of.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
With an expected uptick in bolts across the board, running Confidant, or against Burn, cascading TS can be a game ender. In a grind down to topdecks, expect to often not have a real TS target and just get shocked, and another percentage where IoK would have served. Am definitely going to try more CB, tag some commands, breach and shift, etc. and shore up the burn matchup. For other tough matchups, CB very good against Dredge, removes Merfolk lords. Not super confident in CB, but definitely worth a try. Storm is an interesting concern, where you really want the discard, and BBE may never matter, but CB is pretty good there too. This is where Scavenging Ooze is so important, getting at Game1 Storm (am currently listing 2). Postboard you are going to drop so much removal, and not an unreasonable place to find more discard and ways to deal with tokens (Rakdos Charm?!).
On another note, am playing 25 lands, and have not seen a situation where Twilight Mire is better than Urborg, and have gotten twisted by TM enough to matter. With four+ creature lands, not too concerned about flood. A singleton Blooming Marsh perfectly fine, can't see complaining flipping that turn 4, and not any of the extra copies of Cliffs or a manland... turn 4 may not be the best turn to drop BBE anyway (Komplarens).
Grim Flayer is so enticing, not only setting up BBE, but likely a good hit off BBE as the likelihood of delirium by then is high... but it was nearly impossible to jam a few before with Dark Confidant (abzan), even though those two play perfectly as well. There just is not enough flex at the creature slot !