@Spsiegel I like CB against UW in Traverse Shadow because you really only care about Supreme Verdict, but Jund cares about Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, Elspeth, Spreading Seas, and now Jace. I'm not thrilled about paying 2 mana for a discard spell that can't hit those high impact targets, and would rather board in a Duress and more (resilient) threats. Kitchen Finks was how we beat Jeskai when Jund was a top deck before, and I strongly believe it'll be an important piece of the puzzle again moving forward. To comment on another of your posts from earlier, one of my BBE lists included 4 Fulminator Mages for all of the reasons you outlined, and when Tron and Scapeshift inevitably show up to fight Jace and Jund I could easily see all 4 being a good idea.
@Delver Your second point is also highly relevant. I'm looking forward to seeing Reid's BBE Jund list and hoping he'll put out another video.
I would rather replace push with cb than going down on 1 mana discard.
Also to add, how do we know if those guys actually played well? Playing jund benefits greatly from skill as well, and experience.
Actually, Brad Nelson played horribly that match. He practically gave away his Thrun and lotv. And Todd's deck was loaded with high value 4-drops. Which is great against jund, but probably not very playable against the rest of the field..
I've been very impressed with Hazoret, I think she may have a place in the 75, especially if we find it's correct to only have 3 BBE. Smashing for 5 haste after a Jace came down and ticked up to 5 loyalty seems good.
Alright everyone, my friend and I have been working on this experiment. If you wanna fight blue jace decks, join em. I present to you Modern Cezch Pile or Blue Jund:
I think I may try to sleeve this up. I think playing no Scavenging Oozes is wrong and will probably drop the 3 Grim Flayers and go back to 2 Oozes and 1 Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore, but I want to try it out anyway. I also plan to try a 3/3 Split of Thoughtseize and Inquisiton, but will also be play testing 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition.
I truly think 4x Fulminator mages may now be a thing. It's stock rises with Jace decks, and the Tron decks that attempt to prey from the unbans.
I actually am starting to think Thrun may be left on the sidelines
I have a feeling Jund will need to run 2x Cages/2x Nihil spellbombs in order to fight back decks that think they're going to be cute with glass cannons.
Regaridng the Sam Black video, it's worth noting that Match 1 was very close - Gideon was really the best card for getting Sam out of the double Lili situation (though Elspeth probably works too... but that card is basically unbeatable anyway) and had he drawn slightly worse - i.e. not finding a removal spell in that one-turn window - he could have easily lost. Match 2 was really Sam winning one game, as Matt misplayed G1. Likely would have lost anyway, but given Sam didn't have an answer to confidant, it is feasible that T2 Bob could have pulled Matt out of the color screw.
The reality is these matchups are pretty bad for Jun. However, I don't really think the bannings make the matchup worse. I think BBE does more for Jund in the MU than Jace does for UWx. That being said, it's still a bad matchup. The issue isn't really Jace himself, it's that Jace is going to make blue control decks super popular.
I personally would love to try a Modern Pile deck (since I love Czech Pile personally) but DRS really holds that greedy 4 colour deck together. I dont know if we can do that in Modern, as BM will hose us pretty badly.
I think this is a case where Jund is essentially a fair, creature deck that doesn't do anything broken. Jace can stretch out the game to a win. The decks that don't care about Jace, Grishoalbrand, Tron, death shadow, will still pummel him. I mean, would you rather have turn four Jace or turn three Karn?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
You cant play 3 oozes with BBE being a staple now, since 4 Goyf and 4 Bob are fixed, as well as 3 BBE. You dont want too many creatures imo. And that only leaves a spot for max 2 OOze.
old bbe list ran like 16-18 creatures.
Yeah I figured. I guess if the meta allows clunkier slower lists similar to that before then why not. But I argued in context to the prevalent metagame. How that changes will be interesting to observe.
Reid's list has no Thoughtseize in the MD which strikes me as odd. If we're anticipating Jace to be widespread(and then in turn Big Mana) wouldn't we want atleast two Thoughtseize?
I know people have been considering Choke, but realize that will also effect our Spreading Seased lands. Has anyone maybe considered a Chandra, Torch of Defiance to help fight against Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Her +1 Ability seems to counter the Fate Seal effect, as long with keeping him from actually ticking gaining counters, since you can constantly redirect the damage to him.
I know people have been considering Choke, but realize that will also effect our Spreading Seased lands. Has anyone maybe considered a Chandra, Torch of Defiance to help fight against Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Her +1 Ability seems to counter the Fate Seal effect, as long with keeping him from actually ticking gaining counters, since you can constantly redirect the damage to him.
Reid's list has no Thoughtseize in the MD which strikes me as odd. If we're anticipating Jace to be widespread(and then in turn Big Mana) wouldn't we want atleast two Thoughtseize?
That surprized me as well. I am curious how Reid wants to beat Jace.
So I remember when I was first getting back into MTG a few years ago, and a few guys at the LGS were playing Jund. It was something I really wanted to play but needed to build up the cards for it. Well by the time I built up what would be useful it fell off the radar. Fast forward to today and the LGS is closed and I spend more time out of town than in, so I've turned to MTGO. My MTGO card pool is vastly superior to what I have in paper at this point, so I decided after reading this series of articles to give this a try. I'm sure it's probably already been discussed, but I took this list card for card and started testing it today, and so far it's working amazingly well. Just wanted to throw this list out in case anyone has any words on it, the only problem I've run into was a Thopter Sword deck that was running Jace, and that was more of who could get to their now un-banned card first.
Edit to add: I've played two more games since posting this and went against Counters Company and Grixis Death's Shadow. Neither game was particularly close. I know this list will have some issues with Jace, but it's working out pretty well so far, so I'll finish out this league and see where it stands.
Anyone see Ben Friedman's article on statcity I'm beginning to think something like an iok will be cut and huge changes are coming. I don't like how focused the community is on making tiny changes.
Anyone see Ben Friedman's article on statcity I'm beginning to think something like an iok will be cut and huge changes are coming. I don't like how focused the community is on making tiny changes.
What are you supposed to do when something is completely new? I'd say go with what you know and adjust afterwards. And therefore jamming 4 BBE into Junds list is the easiest starting point in getting into a developing process for the new jund deck.
Why should we just automatically assume that Jund lists will be completely different? And if they will be, then how do we know in which direction we are going? I think just doing somthing completely new is wrong, because you dont know where you are going and what are you aiming at.
I know 100 % that those initial lists wont be the endpoint. But its a start at least I can follow. I think such lists playing complete unplayed cards now make little sense (like Fulminator main, cutting goyfs, lili, Finks main etc.)
@Delver Your second point is also highly relevant. I'm looking forward to seeing Reid's BBE Jund list and hoping he'll put out another video.
Actually, Brad Nelson played horribly that match. He practically gave away his Thrun and lotv. And Todd's deck was loaded with high value 4-drops. Which is great against jund, but probably not very playable against the rest of the field..
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
//
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
// 1 Enchantment
1 Search for Azcanta
// 9 Instant
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
// 23 Land
1 Blood Crypt
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Darkslick Shores
// 4 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 11 Sorcery
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dreadbore
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Serum Visions
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
// 4 Creature
SB: 3 Fulminator Mage
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
// 7 Instant
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Disdainful Stroke
SB: 1 Dispel
SB: 2 Countersquall
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
Needs some work but this is just a disgusting card advantage engine and in testing so far, I've been crushing blue decks. Let me know your thoughts
Modern: Mono U Tron, Ajundi, Ad Nauseam, TITI Moon, GR Ponza, 5C Humans
Legacy: Lands, Mono Red Sneak, 4C Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Flayer
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (11)
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
Land (24)
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
I think I may try to sleeve this up. I think playing no Scavenging Oozes is wrong and will probably drop the 3 Grim Flayers and go back to 2 Oozes and 1 Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore, but I want to try it out anyway. I also plan to try a 3/3 Split of Thoughtseize and Inquisiton, but will also be play testing 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition.
I'm leaning towards a similar sideboard to you as well. I'm thinking I may start with something like this as my sideboard..
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jund Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Collective Brutality
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
The reality is these matchups are pretty bad for Jun. However, I don't really think the bannings make the matchup worse. I think BBE does more for Jund in the MU than Jace does for UWx. That being said, it's still a bad matchup. The issue isn't really Jace himself, it's that Jace is going to make blue control decks super popular.
The master speaks to us guys.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Yeah I figured. I guess if the meta allows clunkier slower lists similar to that before then why not. But I argued in context to the prevalent metagame. How that changes will be interesting to observe.
I’m nobody to challenge the master, but I didn’t see a single mention of Jace or dreadbore. I think he’ll have to adjust his list.
Also, I don’t know if I can agree with cutting turn 1 discard. It can protect Bob and goyf, while making goyf a 3/4 on turn 2.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
BG/x BG
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Might be an option. I personally think the best cards against Jace are Dreadbore, Thoughtseize, Maelstrom Pulse, Thrun, the Last Troll and Hazoret the Fervent which are available to us.
That surprized me as well. I am curious how Reid wants to beat Jace.
So I remember when I was first getting back into MTG a few years ago, and a few guys at the LGS were playing Jund. It was something I really wanted to play but needed to build up the cards for it. Well by the time I built up what would be useful it fell off the radar. Fast forward to today and the LGS is closed and I spend more time out of town than in, so I've turned to MTGO. My MTGO card pool is vastly superior to what I have in paper at this point, so I decided after reading this series of articles to give this a try. I'm sure it's probably already been discussed, but I took this list card for card and started testing it today, and so far it's working amazingly well. Just wanted to throw this list out in case anyone has any words on it, the only problem I've run into was a Thopter Sword deck that was running Jace, and that was more of who could get to their now un-banned card first.
Edit to add: I've played two more games since posting this and went against Counters Company and Grixis Death's Shadow. Neither game was particularly close. I know this list will have some issues with Jace, but it's working out pretty well so far, so I'll finish out this league and see where it stands.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (11)
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan’s Command
Sorceries (6)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Raging Ravine
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Terminate
1 Anger of the Gods
What are you supposed to do when something is completely new? I'd say go with what you know and adjust afterwards. And therefore jamming 4 BBE into Junds list is the easiest starting point in getting into a developing process for the new jund deck.
Why should we just automatically assume that Jund lists will be completely different? And if they will be, then how do we know in which direction we are going? I think just doing somthing completely new is wrong, because you dont know where you are going and what are you aiming at.
I know 100 % that those initial lists wont be the endpoint. But its a start at least I can follow. I think such lists playing complete unplayed cards now make little sense (like Fulminator main, cutting goyfs, lili, Finks main etc.)