@LEH I like the mainboard actually, if we don't run Flayer. Would construct the SB a little bit different, but the main thing to focus would be a good mainboard anyway.
Lets hope reid duke is working on a Jund list for hopefully this weeks edition of his article series. Would love to see his take on our deck, given the new changes in Rabblemasters and Hazoret are seeing some play. Am curious if he would play any Rabblemaster action and am curious if he would play 23 or 24 lands.
Yup, I told Reid last week I hope he tests out jund and to consider the rabblemaster build. He responded he'd test jund with it. Hope he does and it's this week
Yup, I told Reid last week I hope he tests out jund and to consider the rabblemaster build. He responded he'd test jund with it. Hope he does and it's this week
I don't really think you should dismiss Hazoret without testing, I do believe a card like that DOES warrant testing. Any powerful red card that isn't more than 4 cmc deserves it.
You could also just side out Hazoret after game 1 and replace it with Thrun, who I believe is a good meta call right now.
So, I was thinking about it last night in general
A lot of the Jund community is liking Rabblemasters, right? The matchups we don't like it is the creature heavy decks, those creature heavy decks tend to be lower to the ground, go wide. So, how come we aren't playing Grim Lavamancers in the side for it? The decks Rabble is bad against are usually the one's Grim Lavamancer is great against, right?
In the list I have in my head I'm having trouble fitting in Grim, which is a shame, because it's such a good card in Jund. The meta is so wide it can be difficult to fit so much into the sideboard.
While looking at my list, I also realized how heavily Jund uses it's red in comparison to Junk's white cards.
I'm also a little sad there aren't any new video's on youtube of Jund on mtgo. I wish there were some good, regular streamers I could learn from. All the vids are like from 8 months or older.
I think by now, Rabblemaster has proven himself to be a viable card in winning Jund decks. In fact, there's more of him being played than all other four-drops right now. Even I'm only on one 4-drop in my 75.
As for Grim Lavamancer, I never leave home without him sleeved in the board. One of the best cards in there, in my opinion. Here's my decklist if needed. I'm solidified on this 75 and now just hammering out sideboard plans for certain matchups. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/878904#paper
As for streamers, O_oScholar does nuthin but jund'n all day. He's a very frequent in the MTGO leagues and goes 5-0 on occasion. He's a great player and great dude, give him a try @ https://www.twitch.tv/o_oscholar. (Jeff Hoogland is also a big fan of this dude and pops into the chat every now and then if that means anything to you guys.)
Also; cannot be an advocate of the Discord chat enough. If you (or anyone) need help hammering out a list, feel free to discuss it there! I'm on like 24/7 hah.
Hello fellow BGx players, I hail from the other side of the fence that is the abzan and I've been curious about jund for a while.
What I love the most about the white cards in abzan is how devastating the sideboard options can be against certain decks but the deck as a whole feels a bit slow. Then I brewed up this abomination...
Before you tear this apart give it some thought: rip and stony silence are some of the most iconic hate cards in the format and while rip asks you to side out goyfs, maindeck still has enough power to reel in the win while say living end doesn't stand a change if it hits the board. Death's shadow decks also live by their ability to delve in huge threats early on... Not going to happen without that gy. Eidolon makes the life of many decks an uphill battle and lingering souls it just gravy.
Are there red options that are strictly better than these?
I think the only card Jund wants that Abzan has access to, is Lingering Souls. We don't need RIP or Stony Silence, and if you want to know why, read the second part of my post here. I think you can try something like this, but you need more white sources to support all that white 2 drops. Make sure you have at least 13 untapped white sources in your deck for that. Right now you only have 8 fetchlands plus 1 Godless Shrine. Thats way too few and greedy.
I don't really think you should dismiss Hazoret without testing, I do believe a card like that DOES warrant testing. Any powerful red card that isn't more than 4 cmc deserves it.
You could also just side out Hazoret after game 1 and replace it with Thrun, who I believe is a good meta call right now.
So, I was thinking about it last night in general
A lot of the Jund community is liking Rabblemasters, right? The matchups we don't like it is the creature heavy decks, those creature heavy decks tend to be lower to the ground, go wide. So, how come we aren't playing Grim Lavamancers in the side for it? The decks Rabble is bad against are usually the one's Grim Lavamancer is great against, right?
In the list I have in my head I'm having trouble fitting in Grim, which is a shame, because it's such a good card in Jund. The meta is so wide it can be difficult to fit so much into the sideboard.
While looking at my list, I also realized how heavily Jund uses it's red in comparison to Junk's white cards.
I'm also a little sad there aren't any new video's on youtube of Jund on mtgo. I wish there were some good, regular streamers I could learn from. All the vids are like from 8 months or older.
I personally love Hazoret, she has impressed me very much in my testing. But not sure this will last for ever.
I also thought about the current state of Jund, especially in comparison to Abzan. I don't think our biggest problem is creature based decks. Why not make an analytical approach and go for every matchup relevant nowadays and compare for which matchups we want to be on the Jund side and for which matchups we want to be on the Abzan side. I made this (you can see it in the following) and you'll see that in my humble opinion, I want to be on the Jund part for most of the matchups. However, there are some pretty important ones where Abzan has the clear advantage, and my analytics also show, that this is only due to Souls. Deciding if you want to be on the Jund or Abzan side might be subjective, but I think Reid made good arguments in his Abzan article (link) and I agree with him for the most part. So here we go:
Grixis DS: Abzan has the edge. One important matchup where according to Reid, Jund is a little bit behind and Abzan is favoured. The only reason for this is Lingering Souls. DS has spot removal for the most part and Souls are so hard to deal with. It was at first very surprising that Reid said this. I always thought Jund had the edge here. However, I payed a bit more attention in my recent matches against the deck and found that I agree here. Naturally, if you have 2 decks, both running Push, and one Push hitting every creature in the deck vs the other Push only hitting half of the creatures, naturally one has the advantage. I know we have Terminate, but we also have Decay as possible awkward removal. Abzan just has this go wide strategy which either generates ton of time or can kill through evasion attacks.
UR Gifts Storm: Both have the edge. I think for this matchup it actually does not matter which side you are on, although I think naturally Jund has the slight edge here, since Bolt just can hit the face and the clock is faster. Probably doesn't matter but for me Jund wins here.
Tron: Both loose. Here it most of the time also doesn't matter which side you are choosing. Since Jund runs Rabblemaster, I want to be on the Jund side in my opinion. I don't think Stony Silence does enough, I prefer a faster clock anytime. However, this one probably also doesn't matter too much.
Control: The second important matchup where Abzan has the edge whereas Jund is behind. Lingering Souls again. If I would expect much Control, Abzan is the clear choice here. I think, personally, due to this matchup, Abzan is more popular and better. Only due to this kind of matchup and simply because of Souls.
Humans: Creature based matchups are always good or 50/50 for both Abzan and Jund, but I prefer Jund here simply because we have Bolt, Anger of the Gods and no Lingering Souls. In these kind of matchups Souls is unexiting, wheras our valuable mass removals are.
Burn: I think both versions are more or less on the same page here, although Abzan naturally doesn't take much dmg from their own cards, for which reason Abzan may be better. However, and this is a big however, I think if you are a skillful player and pilot your deck carefully, you can very well gain some win% points against burn. And Burn is certainly not the matchup which makes me wanna have Souls.
Affinity: Here I think Jund is the clear winner. Reid also confirms it. He would rather be on the Grudge/KCommand side that Stony Silence. I can only agree. Bolt as an early interaction also helps very much for this matchup. I can't help but I prefer Jund over Abzan here. And that despite Souls and Silence being amazing here.
E-Tron: Both versions suck. Don't think any version has significant higher win% than the other. This matchup certainly doesn't make the cut.
Dredge: I think due to Anger of the Gods Jund is simply favoured here. G1 Abzan probably has the edge, since some versions run Spellbomb main, which is great. I think I want Anger though. And Spellbomb is a card we also have.
Mardu Pyromancer: Right now not that present, but Abzan has the clear advantage I think. Souls help fighting their Souls.
CoCo decks: Again, due to more early interaction in Bolt and amazing mass removal in Anger, I would rather be on the Jund side. Here also SOuls is unexiting.
So all in all, there are only 2 relevant matchups where I want to be on the Abzan side, and those are Control and Grixis DS decks. For all other matchups, I either want to be more on the Jund side or it doesn't matter. All things considered, those 2 miser matchups are simply the reason Abzan is doing better right now, because those 2 matchups are so much more important, as they are more present and the advantage you get with Souls is soo much higher. If we would find a good way to beat Control and Grixis DS more consistantly, we would be better than Abzan in my opinion.
I don't think Lavamancer is the solution to this. I think we are fine vs go wide strategies. You can pilot the deck in a way to beat such strategies. Its only Control and Grixis DS that gets us.
Jund God's have graced us with Blood Sun this new years.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The worst part isn't the pain, or the smell, or even the fear of death. It's hearing the clatter of bone on stone and knowing the bones are yours."BRG
Jund God's have graced us with Blood Sun this new years.
I saw that card, and I think its a trap.
First of all, it doesn't stop Tron in any way, it only hurts us (Tron lands are mana abilities) and therefore our biggest enemy doesn't get hit.
It does hit Valakut which is great and all but I am still unexcited. Why?
Ravnice bouncelands, shock, fast, checklands all come into play without any drawback. That means this cards supports greedy manabases. The fact that it stops fetches is hurting us basically equally bad.
Tron can actually jam this in their SB and have answers to GQ, Tec edge and Field of Ruin. It would make Tron stronger.
Besides Valakut, don't see a bad matchup where this would give us the edge. We need something against Control and Tron right now.
Cascading into Pulse doesn't seem bad either. If anything is on the BF we can deal with it, and if there isn't, we are in a good spot anyway.
I suppose one simply has to hold onto BBE when one's opponent has no permanents in play if one plays Pulse or Decay.
I don't necessarily think so. This is also the perfect oppoutunitiy to get ahead on board if you hit something else. Even with opposing permanents in play BBE sometimes just hits discard. Its okay and evens out I guess.
Jund God's have graced us with Blood Sun this new years.
I saw that card, and I think its a trap.
First of all, it doesn't stop Tron in any way, it only hurts us (Tron lands are mana abilities) and therefore our biggest enemy doesn't get hit.
It does hit Valakut which is great and all but I am still unexcited. Why?
Ravnice bouncelands, shock, fast, checklands all come into play without any drawback. That means this cards supports greedy manabases. The fact that it stops fetches is hurting us basically equally bad.
Tron can actually jam this in their SB and have answers to GQ, Tec edge and Field of Ruin. It would make Tron stronger.
Besides Valakut, don't see a bad matchup where this would give us the edge. We need something against Control and Tron right now.
You have to pick your battles, I wouldn't want this against tron the same way I don't want Fulminator Mage against Valakut, they're different decks that utilize their lands differently. It screws with Jund's fetches, but not nearly as much as Blood Moon, which is a card a lot of people still play. I never liked BM against Tron anyway because unless you have a turn two Tarmogoyf, they just hit 6-8 land drops anyway and start hardcasting stuff. It's not a lock, it just buys time. Time which can't be utilized if you don't have your own lands in order and cant cast your own spells. I think this card will be great if you're looking to beat Valakut (which I am), since it's the more annoying of the two decks as it's harder to interact with.
The top-deck "I win" card is much more aggravating to me than a top-deck Karn, because even though both suck, one is a permanent that can be bolted.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The worst part isn't the pain, or the smell, or even the fear of death. It's hearing the clatter of bone on stone and knowing the bones are yours."BRG
Jund God's have graced us with Blood Sun this new years.
I saw that card, and I think its a trap.
First of all, it doesn't stop Tron in any way, it only hurts us (Tron lands are mana abilities) and therefore our biggest enemy doesn't get hit.
It does hit Valakut which is great and all but I am still unexcited. Why?
Ravnice bouncelands, shock, fast, checklands all come into play without any drawback. That means this cards supports greedy manabases. The fact that it stops fetches is hurting us basically equally bad.
Tron can actually jam this in their SB and have answers to GQ, Tec edge and Field of Ruin. It would make Tron stronger.
Besides Valakut, don't see a bad matchup where this would give us the edge. We need something against Control and Tron right now.
You have to pick your battles, I wouldn't want this against tron the same way I don't want Fulminator Mage against Valakut, they're different decks that utilize their lands differently. It screws with Jund's fetches, but not nearly as much as Blood Moon, which is a card a lot of people still play. I never liked BM against Tron anyway because unless you have a turn two Tarmogoyf, they just hit 6-8 land drops anyway and start hardcasting stuff. It's not a lock, it just buys time. Time which can't be utilized if you don't have your own lands in order and cant cast your own spells. I think this card will be great if you're looking to beat Valakut (which I am), since it's the more annoying of the two decks as it's harder to interact with.
The top-deck "I win" card is much more aggravating to me than a top-deck Karn, because even though both suck, one is a permanent that can be bolted.
I have to say, Valakut is bad, however, I am with Reid Duke here. He says Tron is the worst of the worst and Valakut is bad, but more beatable than Tron. I share this thoughts through my experience. It is well known that BM is bad against Tron, if you can't combine it with a fast clock. If you want to beat Valakut, then this might be a reasonable card to do it, but I have to say, I did play BM against Valakut in the past (without screwing me) and still the matchup is nowhere near auto-won from there. So this would be the same situation if you have Blood Sun on the BF. Fulminator is still a good card against Valakut, don't know why you wouldn't want that card against them.
Abzan would pop up and make it a nightmare matchup
It's interesting to see where it's going to go, if it becomes a reality i'm excited to see what the pro's find a consensus on.
Might very well be. Am also thinking he would not run Rabblemasters. But I am not sure and thats why I want to know
Nice, lets hope so!
You could also just side out Hazoret after game 1 and replace it with Thrun, who I believe is a good meta call right now.
So, I was thinking about it last night in general
A lot of the Jund community is liking Rabblemasters, right? The matchups we don't like it is the creature heavy decks, those creature heavy decks tend to be lower to the ground, go wide. So, how come we aren't playing Grim Lavamancers in the side for it? The decks Rabble is bad against are usually the one's Grim Lavamancer is great against, right?
In the list I have in my head I'm having trouble fitting in Grim, which is a shame, because it's such a good card in Jund. The meta is so wide it can be difficult to fit so much into the sideboard.
While looking at my list, I also realized how heavily Jund uses it's red in comparison to Junk's white cards.
I'm also a little sad there aren't any new video's on youtube of Jund on mtgo. I wish there were some good, regular streamers I could learn from. All the vids are like from 8 months or older.
As for Grim Lavamancer, I never leave home without him sleeved in the board. One of the best cards in there, in my opinion. Here's my decklist if needed. I'm solidified on this 75 and now just hammering out sideboard plans for certain matchups. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/878904#paper
As for streamers, O_oScholar does nuthin but jund'n all day. He's a very frequent in the MTGO leagues and goes 5-0 on occasion. He's a great player and great dude, give him a try @ https://www.twitch.tv/o_oscholar. (Jeff Hoogland is also a big fan of this dude and pops into the chat every now and then if that means anything to you guys.)
Also; cannot be an advocate of the Discord chat enough. If you (or anyone) need help hammering out a list, feel free to discuss it there! I'm on like 24/7 hah.
I think the only card Jund wants that Abzan has access to, is Lingering Souls. We don't need RIP or Stony Silence, and if you want to know why, read the second part of my post here. I think you can try something like this, but you need more white sources to support all that white 2 drops. Make sure you have at least 13 untapped white sources in your deck for that. Right now you only have 8 fetchlands plus 1 Godless Shrine. Thats way too few and greedy.
I personally love Hazoret, she has impressed me very much in my testing. But not sure this will last for ever.
I also thought about the current state of Jund, especially in comparison to Abzan. I don't think our biggest problem is creature based decks. Why not make an analytical approach and go for every matchup relevant nowadays and compare for which matchups we want to be on the Jund side and for which matchups we want to be on the Abzan side. I made this (you can see it in the following) and you'll see that in my humble opinion, I want to be on the Jund part for most of the matchups. However, there are some pretty important ones where Abzan has the clear advantage, and my analytics also show, that this is only due to Souls. Deciding if you want to be on the Jund or Abzan side might be subjective, but I think Reid made good arguments in his Abzan article (link) and I agree with him for the most part. So here we go:
So all in all, there are only 2 relevant matchups where I want to be on the Abzan side, and those are Control and Grixis DS decks. For all other matchups, I either want to be more on the Jund side or it doesn't matter. All things considered, those 2 miser matchups are simply the reason Abzan is doing better right now, because those 2 matchups are so much more important, as they are more present and the advantage you get with Souls is soo much higher. If we would find a good way to beat Control and Grixis DS more consistantly, we would be better than Abzan in my opinion.
I don't think Lavamancer is the solution to this. I think we are fine vs go wide strategies. You can pilot the deck in a way to beat such strategies. Its only Control and Grixis DS that gets us.
I saw that card, and I think its a trap.
First of all, it doesn't stop Tron in any way, it only hurts us (Tron lands are mana abilities) and therefore our biggest enemy doesn't get hit.
It does hit Valakut which is great and all but I am still unexcited. Why?
Ravnice bouncelands, shock, fast, checklands all come into play without any drawback. That means this cards supports greedy manabases. The fact that it stops fetches is hurting us basically equally bad.
Tron can actually jam this in their SB and have answers to GQ, Tec edge and Field of Ruin. It would make Tron stronger.
Besides Valakut, don't see a bad matchup where this would give us the edge. We need something against Control and Tron right now.
I suppose one simply has to hold onto BBE when one's opponent has no permanents in play if one plays Pulse or Decay.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I don't necessarily think so. This is also the perfect oppoutunitiy to get ahead on board if you hit something else. Even with opposing permanents in play BBE sometimes just hits discard. Its okay and evens out I guess.
You have to pick your battles, I wouldn't want this against tron the same way I don't want Fulminator Mage against Valakut, they're different decks that utilize their lands differently. It screws with Jund's fetches, but not nearly as much as Blood Moon, which is a card a lot of people still play. I never liked BM against Tron anyway because unless you have a turn two Tarmogoyf, they just hit 6-8 land drops anyway and start hardcasting stuff. It's not a lock, it just buys time. Time which can't be utilized if you don't have your own lands in order and cant cast your own spells. I think this card will be great if you're looking to beat Valakut (which I am), since it's the more annoying of the two decks as it's harder to interact with.
The top-deck "I win" card is much more aggravating to me than a top-deck Karn, because even though both suck, one is a permanent that can be bolted.
I have to say, Valakut is bad, however, I am with Reid Duke here. He says Tron is the worst of the worst and Valakut is bad, but more beatable than Tron. I share this thoughts through my experience. It is well known that BM is bad against Tron, if you can't combine it with a fast clock. If you want to beat Valakut, then this might be a reasonable card to do it, but I have to say, I did play BM against Valakut in the past (without screwing me) and still the matchup is nowhere near auto-won from there. So this would be the same situation if you have Blood Sun on the BF. Fulminator is still a good card against Valakut, don't know why you wouldn't want that card against them.