It was a response to Valakut and Tron decks. Jund can absolutely keep a board clear. If you're playing a company/vial deck you obviously side it out then.
A few months ago when I was on Eldrazi Tron, someone played it against me and it got out of hand so quick. It got worse post board.
I was pleasantly more happy with it than our normal 4 drops.
Chandra is just awful outside of grindy matchups
Kalitas is great against small creature decks but is bad against combo and control
Olivia is great in slow grindy matchups and tokens, but lacks power against combo and control
Huntmaster is safe, he's low risk medium reward.
Rabble has been fantastic against anything that isn't too creature heavy.
With bolt being trimmed this card has seriously become better.
I personally find most appealing in Rabblemaster that it has potential to fight opposing Lingering Souls and also makes LoTV less good against us. If you play a turn 2 Bob and your opponent will LoTV it away, usually you are in a bad spot. But now you can turn 3 Rabblemaster, killing the LoTV right away and still be safe from a second copy of LoTV.
I won a match last week against 8-Rack, which is usually a very bad matchup for us, only due to Rabblemaster. I kept him through all discard and dropped him early, and my opponents edict effects where useless at this point. Fatal Push can also not kill him all the time, its actually relevant in my exp.
I personally find most appealing in Rabblemaster that it has potential to fight opposing Lingering Souls and also makes LoTV less good against us. If you play a turn 2 Bob and your opponent will LoTV it away, usually you are in a bad spot. But now you can turn 3 Rabblemaster, killing the LoTV right away and still be safe from a second copy of LoTV.
I won a match last week against 8-Rack, which is usually a very bad matchup for us, only due to Rabblemaster. I kept him through all discard and dropped him early, and my opponents edict effects where useless at this point. Fatal Push can also not kill him all the time, its actually relevant in my exp.
You were very resistant to playing Rabblemaster.
I still haven't tested out Hazoret in any form, whether it's him or paired up with Rabblemaster.
I liked Rabblemaster during GP Madrid and I'll continue to play 2 copies of him in my MD.
On the other hand, I never liked Hazoret in my deck, she has no evasion and is blocked by all the things on earth.
The 2 dmg ability is less strong than Chandra Torch of Defiance +1 (which make some CA) ...
And with UW and Jeskai being more and more popular, with Path to Exile, she doesn't seem to be good in the actual meta game.
I like Rabblemaster because it gives Jund a strength that separates it from other G/B decks, a clock. When Fatal Push came out Jund was just considered by some to be a worse Abzan. But having Rabblemaster, Ravine, and Bolt give Jund the ability to close out games at a pace Abzan couldn't dream of. You sacrifice the midrange power of Abzan, but playing Against Valakut and Tron isn't nearly as embarrassing since you aren't durdling around with lingering souls.
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23 lands with Moon has been okay so far. I cut a Wooded Foothills for the 2nd LtLH. She is just solid in my meta and is really good against matchups where LotV sucks. However, I now have 11 3-drops MB which maybe not be good. I may follow suit with FlyingDelver and go down to 2 Ravines for another Foothills to help fetch a basic Forest. I love Ravine though so I'm still in the ropes, but in matches where I'm bringing Moon, I'm shutting down Ravine too so that maybe the better course.
My sideboard is still up in the air but mainly tuned for my meta. 2 Explosives maybe a lot but I have some Boggles and it is also a good sweeper against Affinity and other small go-wide creature decks. Haven't drawn Hazoret a lot so she has yet to impress me. Right now she is my flex spot in the SB. I'm not running Finks so my Burn matchup is left to a pair of Brutalities and pray I can get there. Chandra ToD is for UWx and matches where I aim to lock the board with Blood Moon and hope to emblem her for the win.
edit: Two Lilies on the board is just bonkers. Coupled with your removals, it locks the board against creature decks while you rip their hand and threaten with their game-ending ultimates.
I still haven't tested out Hazoret in any form, whether it's him or paired up with Rabblemaster.
You are right, I were. But I have to admit, I kinda like the go-wide strategy, it helps making cards, that are usually good against us (LoTV/Souls) more beatable. And you can race non interactive decks.
So I came back from FNM yesterday, and I have to say Hazoret was amazing there. She literally won me every game she came down. She is very swingy and a crazy good topdeck, she bashes in for 5 right away and every topdeck at least turns into a shock, thats often a huge clock. Besides that, if you don't face a lot of paths, she is almost impossible to remove. I really like her tbh.
I played against Grixis Control Round 1, which I won 2-0. Normally I would say that this matchup is hard to beat, since they have Push klilling everything we have and a good late game engine with Tasigur/KCommand/Snapcaster and also Aszcantra (this card is bonkers btw) but Rabblemaster produced too many tokens. My opponent could only tap my team with Command the whole time, but the tokens added up and then they are like Souls against Control. THe thing here is that YOu just can't jam Rabblemaster on 3, when you know it gets bolted. You have to let them bolt your other threats first (or Lilianas) and then Rabblemaster can be amazing here if unanswered. And if you play it on 3 and it gets bolted, its okay bc maybe then BOb lives. In both games I waited to resolve Hazoret until I had Mana Leak mana open and when she is on the BF, its almost GG, they are literelly not able to remove her (except for dismember if they run it)
Round 2 I played against Jund which I won 2-0. My opponent wasn't very experienced with the deck and I just navigated through the games much better than my opponent. I also saw in game 2 that my opponent boarded in BM, which is incredibly bad. Hazoret again sealed the deal, since she is hard to remove except for LoTV. I like Rabblemaster here also to protect my Hazoret from LoTV. I think they team up greatly.
Round 3 I drawed against GW CoCo (am not actually sure how to call the deck, it was the GW version running Knight of the Reliquary, Voice, Finks and so on.) Just an annoying deck to be paired against since most removal of ours are only half effective. I did have 2 Angers in my SB for this, but I could not find any in both games, for which reason it was just a draw. I managed to fight through 2 Voices, 2 Finks, 1 Knight and 1 Elspeth, Suns Champion though. I killed every Finks eating them with Ooze with the persist trigger on the stack and then killed both Voices and then EEed my opponents tokens away, killing the Elspeth with my Ooze. And besides EE, not sweeper was involved. So you bet that was though.
Round 4 I lost against Grixis Shadow. Just something that happens. I didn't have removal for the delve creatures. Reid Duke called this matchup unfavourable for Jund, which I thought otherwise about in the past. I am not sure anymore though. Generally, we have more removal, but also more blank removal. Their Push hit everything we have and our Push doesn't. Terminate are out greatest friends alsongside LoTV. However, Denial is a card. Unless you have a good excess of that hard removal we are pretty much ****ed. I also liked what my opponent did with the Street Wraiths. He actually hard casted them. I always thought that this "secret mode" is highly underestimated in grindy matchups and rarely sees play. SW actually wrecks us hard since its unblockable and also Push proof. My opponent just played it really well.
Rond 5 I won against UR As Foretold stuff. Don't know if that deck is good. Its basically a BM deck running As Foretold and Ancestral Visions. I just fetched for basics and deployed my Goyf and then my opponent couldnt remove it. Don't know what my opponents plan was to handle a goyf. Rabblemaster and Hazoret also both were excellent.
So this is less about a ban or unban talk and more about theory crafting
What do you guys think Jund could look like if BBE is legal after the pro-tour?
Would we run 3 or 4? Would 3x K Commands be played? Would lightning be a 4x while push would be reduced to 2x?
I just can't take people saying in all seriousness, "nah, we'd probably just play Huntmaster"
Like, I wonder if the deck would try to run birds of paradise, or jam Kitchen Finks in the main.
Regardless, I have 4x promo Elves, this deck needs life breathed into it.
Lol, why would you run Huntmaster instead?
I would start with playing 4 BBEs right away to test out how good she really is. 4/2 split on Bolt Push makes sense. But wouldn't change anything major in the noncreature spell suite.
23 lands with Moon has been okay so far. I cut a Wooded Foothills for the 2nd LtLH. She is just solid in my meta and is really good against matchups where LotV sucks. However, I now have 11 3-drops MB which maybe not be good. I may follow suit with FlyingDelver and go down to 2 Ravines for another Foothills to help fetch a basic Forest. I love Ravine though so I'm still in the ropes, but in matches where I'm bringing Moon, I'm shutting down Ravine too so that maybe the better course.
My sideboard is still up in the air but mainly tuned for my meta. 2 Explosives maybe a lot but I have some Boggles and it is also a good sweeper against Affinity and other small go-wide creature decks. Haven't drawn Hazoret a lot so she has yet to impress me. Right now she is my flex spot in the SB. I'm not running Finks so my Burn matchup is left to a pair of Brutalities and pray I can get there. Chandra ToD is for UWx and matches where I aim to lock the board with Blood Moon and hope to emblem her for the win.
edit: Two Lilies on the board is just bonkers. Coupled with your removals, it locks the board against creature decks while you rip their hand and threaten with their game-ending ultimates.
I advise you to cut a Ravine instead of the fourth Bloodstained Mire. You really want to get your basics if you are running BM and Ravine becomes less effective anyway. Plus, 23 lands only means you get screwed sometimes, and if you missing landdrops you dont want Ravine to be your topdecked land then. As it is, I think its too greedy. 23 lands without BM and 3 Ravine is already greedy, with BM its way over the top IMHO.
We can compare it to Legacy Jund lists and see how many cards they run, which can potentially be "dead" when they are hit by BBE. There is 4 TS and 4 Hymn in most lists. Those can be bad hits, but I don't consider them too bad, since it would mean the opponent is out of cards, which is always great. Therefore its still worth it for us to keep our miser 6 discard cards. Ofc sometimes you need something which affects the board and not the hand, and then hitting discard with BBE is bad, but this is part of the reason she would be fine to be unbanned in the first place.
There is quite some Decays and no Pushes in Legacy Jund lists most of the time. I think we can't quite mimic that in modern, Decay is way better in Legacy and Push is needed in modern. However, Decay can be a miss as well, so if we have no more than 3-4 cards in Pushes and Decays combined, we are on a similar level to legacy here.
They run 4 Bolts, and I think we should too. Its probably the most flexible target to hit, it can interact with the board as well go to the dome when needed. We get value every time we hit it basically.
They run 4 LoTV and I think we should also do that. There is an argument that you don't want to hit a second LoTV when you already have one on the board, but come on, how bad does the game look for you when you have an unanswered LoTV as well as BBE on the board? I played Jund in legacy and that was never an issue. You can always use the ability of the first Lili before playing BBE and then just replace her and still get value. Its not too bad, and hitting an LoTV is such a huge tempo and value gain, I think we should then totally run 4 of her.
They only run 2 KCommand in Legacy Jund lists most of the time. I think this is also fine for our needs. If we increase the number of 3 drops too much we are effectively hurting our early game, which is very bad. BBE will bring less value with her, this is true, but if we don't run enough early game cards we won't likely be playing BBE in the first place. You could be dead at this point. Therefore I wouldn't go too crazy about 3 drops.
Nonetheless its only theory talking here, and might all be useless if we don't see an unban any time soon.
Not recently actually. Punishing Jund has fallen out of favor lately since the ban of Top and sicne Miracles was not the top deck anymore (your needed PF to grind them out) However, this probably could change now ofc, since Miracles is rising up again. Oh yeah, PF wont come for sure.
For modern purposes, we can at least look at possible misses, not exactly at the specific cards, to determine whats a healthy and still effective amount to run.
I think that you could look back at earlier versions of Jund when BBE was legal, as well as Legacy Jund lists to get an idea of where to go when it's unbanned. Even though BBE Jund was during a different Modern era, we still see a lot of the same archetypes at play in the metagame. The lists then weren't radically different from the stock ones now, accounting for the fact that cards like K-Command hadn't been printed. What's really interesting to me is that a lot of the Jund lists I've seen lately in Legacy are opting for Grim Flayer instead of Dark Confidant. My gut reaction is that Confidant is still the better choice in Modern, but I think it's still worth noting that Legacy lists are favoring card selection over raw card advantage.
I agree that there is no need to drop a Lilly (it's usually very bad), however, it's just what I decided to do from time to time - usually, when I was testing out new cards or at the times where Lilly wasn't very well positioned. One of the things to bare in mind with Cascade and LotV is that Cascaded LotVs are fairly weak due to being activated at Sorcery speed; you have to wait for the Cascade trigger and BBE to be cast before you can activate her (meaning you have to pass priority between casting the Cascaded spell and then BBE resolving) so a single Lightning Bolt, etc. will take her out without you gaining any value.
Thats true, never thought about that one. Might become relevant someday.
A Goblin Rabblemaster on a clear board is going to end a game far faster than a clunky 4 drop.
Except it's rare that it does find a clear board. Is this for certain decks?
A few months ago when I was on Eldrazi Tron, someone played it against me and it got out of hand so quick. It got worse post board.
I was pleasantly more happy with it than our normal 4 drops.
Chandra is just awful outside of grindy matchups
Kalitas is great against small creature decks but is bad against combo and control
Olivia is great in slow grindy matchups and tokens, but lacks power against combo and control
Huntmaster is safe, he's low risk medium reward.
Rabble has been fantastic against anything that isn't too creature heavy.
With bolt being trimmed this card has seriously become better.
I won a match last week against 8-Rack, which is usually a very bad matchup for us, only due to Rabblemaster. I kept him through all discard and dropped him early, and my opponents edict effects where useless at this point. Fatal Push can also not kill him all the time, its actually relevant in my exp.
You were very resistant to playing Rabblemaster.
I still haven't tested out Hazoret in any form, whether it's him or paired up with Rabblemaster.
On the other hand, I never liked Hazoret in my deck, she has no evasion and is blocked by all the things on earth.
The 2 dmg ability is less strong than Chandra Torch of Defiance +1 (which make some CA) ...
And with UW and Jeskai being more and more popular, with Path to Exile, she doesn't seem to be good in the actual meta game.
Gus
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
3 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
2 Forest
13 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, The Last Hope
18 Spells
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
15 Sideboard
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Blood Moon
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Hazoret, the Fervent
1 Golgari Charm
1 Anger of the gods
23 lands with Moon has been okay so far. I cut a Wooded Foothills for the 2nd LtLH. She is just solid in my meta and is really good against matchups where LotV sucks. However, I now have 11 3-drops MB which maybe not be good. I may follow suit with FlyingDelver and go down to 2 Ravines for another Foothills to help fetch a basic Forest. I love Ravine though so I'm still in the ropes, but in matches where I'm bringing Moon, I'm shutting down Ravine too so that maybe the better course.
My sideboard is still up in the air but mainly tuned for my meta. 2 Explosives maybe a lot but I have some Boggles and it is also a good sweeper against Affinity and other small go-wide creature decks. Haven't drawn Hazoret a lot so she has yet to impress me. Right now she is my flex spot in the SB. I'm not running Finks so my Burn matchup is left to a pair of Brutalities and pray I can get there. Chandra ToD is for UWx and matches where I aim to lock the board with Blood Moon and hope to emblem her for the win.
edit: Two Lilies on the board is just bonkers. Coupled with your removals, it locks the board against creature decks while you rip their hand and threaten with their game-ending ultimates.
What do you guys think Jund could look like if BBE is legal after the pro-tour?
Would we run 3 or 4? Would 3x K Commands be played? Would lightning be a 4x while push would be reduced to 2x?
I just can't take people saying in all seriousness, "nah, we'd probably just play Huntmaster"
Like, I wonder if the deck would try to run birds of paradise, or jam Kitchen Finks in the main.
Regardless, I have 4x promo Elves, this deck needs life breathed into it.
You are right, I were. But I have to admit, I kinda like the go-wide strategy, it helps making cards, that are usually good against us (LoTV/Souls) more beatable. And you can race non interactive decks.
So I came back from FNM yesterday, and I have to say Hazoret was amazing there. She literally won me every game she came down. She is very swingy and a crazy good topdeck, she bashes in for 5 right away and every topdeck at least turns into a shock, thats often a huge clock. Besides that, if you don't face a lot of paths, she is almost impossible to remove. I really like her tbh.
I played against Grixis Control Round 1, which I won 2-0. Normally I would say that this matchup is hard to beat, since they have Push klilling everything we have and a good late game engine with Tasigur/KCommand/Snapcaster and also Aszcantra (this card is bonkers btw) but Rabblemaster produced too many tokens. My opponent could only tap my team with Command the whole time, but the tokens added up and then they are like Souls against Control. THe thing here is that YOu just can't jam Rabblemaster on 3, when you know it gets bolted. You have to let them bolt your other threats first (or Lilianas) and then Rabblemaster can be amazing here if unanswered. And if you play it on 3 and it gets bolted, its okay bc maybe then BOb lives. In both games I waited to resolve Hazoret until I had Mana Leak mana open and when she is on the BF, its almost GG, they are literelly not able to remove her (except for dismember if they run it)
Round 2 I played against Jund which I won 2-0. My opponent wasn't very experienced with the deck and I just navigated through the games much better than my opponent. I also saw in game 2 that my opponent boarded in BM, which is incredibly bad. Hazoret again sealed the deal, since she is hard to remove except for LoTV. I like Rabblemaster here also to protect my Hazoret from LoTV. I think they team up greatly.
Round 3 I drawed against GW CoCo (am not actually sure how to call the deck, it was the GW version running Knight of the Reliquary, Voice, Finks and so on.) Just an annoying deck to be paired against since most removal of ours are only half effective. I did have 2 Angers in my SB for this, but I could not find any in both games, for which reason it was just a draw. I managed to fight through 2 Voices, 2 Finks, 1 Knight and 1 Elspeth, Suns Champion though. I killed every Finks eating them with Ooze with the persist trigger on the stack and then killed both Voices and then EEed my opponents tokens away, killing the Elspeth with my Ooze. And besides EE, not sweeper was involved. So you bet that was though.
Round 4 I lost against Grixis Shadow. Just something that happens. I didn't have removal for the delve creatures. Reid Duke called this matchup unfavourable for Jund, which I thought otherwise about in the past. I am not sure anymore though. Generally, we have more removal, but also more blank removal. Their Push hit everything we have and our Push doesn't. Terminate are out greatest friends alsongside LoTV. However, Denial is a card. Unless you have a good excess of that hard removal we are pretty much ****ed. I also liked what my opponent did with the Street Wraiths. He actually hard casted them. I always thought that this "secret mode" is highly underestimated in grindy matchups and rarely sees play. SW actually wrecks us hard since its unblockable and also Push proof. My opponent just played it really well.
Rond 5 I won against UR As Foretold stuff. Don't know if that deck is good. Its basically a BM deck running As Foretold and Ancestral Visions. I just fetched for basics and deployed my Goyf and then my opponent couldnt remove it. Don't know what my opponents plan was to handle a goyf. Rabblemaster and Hazoret also both were excellent.
Lol, why would you run Huntmaster instead?
I would start with playing 4 BBEs right away to test out how good she really is. 4/2 split on Bolt Push makes sense. But wouldn't change anything major in the noncreature spell suite.
I advise you to cut a Ravine instead of the fourth Bloodstained Mire. You really want to get your basics if you are running BM and Ravine becomes less effective anyway. Plus, 23 lands only means you get screwed sometimes, and if you missing landdrops you dont want Ravine to be your topdecked land then. As it is, I think its too greedy. 23 lands without BM and 3 Ravine is already greedy, with BM its way over the top IMHO.
I wonder if all those shocks would push jund to actually have game against ramp, and a better chance against combo.
Jamming in Kitchen Finks would be difficult in the main.
We can compare it to Legacy Jund lists and see how many cards they run, which can potentially be "dead" when they are hit by BBE. There is 4 TS and 4 Hymn in most lists. Those can be bad hits, but I don't consider them too bad, since it would mean the opponent is out of cards, which is always great. Therefore its still worth it for us to keep our miser 6 discard cards. Ofc sometimes you need something which affects the board and not the hand, and then hitting discard with BBE is bad, but this is part of the reason she would be fine to be unbanned in the first place.
There is quite some Decays and no Pushes in Legacy Jund lists most of the time. I think we can't quite mimic that in modern, Decay is way better in Legacy and Push is needed in modern. However, Decay can be a miss as well, so if we have no more than 3-4 cards in Pushes and Decays combined, we are on a similar level to legacy here.
They run 4 Bolts, and I think we should too. Its probably the most flexible target to hit, it can interact with the board as well go to the dome when needed. We get value every time we hit it basically.
They run 4 LoTV and I think we should also do that. There is an argument that you don't want to hit a second LoTV when you already have one on the board, but come on, how bad does the game look for you when you have an unanswered LoTV as well as BBE on the board? I played Jund in legacy and that was never an issue. You can always use the ability of the first Lili before playing BBE and then just replace her and still get value. Its not too bad, and hitting an LoTV is such a huge tempo and value gain, I think we should then totally run 4 of her.
They only run 2 KCommand in Legacy Jund lists most of the time. I think this is also fine for our needs. If we increase the number of 3 drops too much we are effectively hurting our early game, which is very bad. BBE will bring less value with her, this is true, but if we don't run enough early game cards we won't likely be playing BBE in the first place. You could be dead at this point. Therefore I wouldn't go too crazy about 3 drops.
Nonetheless its only theory talking here, and might all be useless if we don't see an unban any time soon.
I don't think we will see PF unbanned.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Not recently actually. Punishing Jund has fallen out of favor lately since the ban of Top and sicne Miracles was not the top deck anymore (your needed PF to grind them out) However, this probably could change now ofc, since Miracles is rising up again. Oh yeah, PF wont come for sure.
For modern purposes, we can at least look at possible misses, not exactly at the specific cards, to determine whats a healthy and still effective amount to run.
I can only dream for BBE into blightning, right?!
Blightning is awesome, but I guess its too weak if you draw it on its own.
I think the deck will surely change somehow. Not sure how much though. I am just guessing
Thats true, never thought about that one. Might become relevant someday.