Out of the SB options, Gideon is the biggest argument for me. I think Stony Silence is not superior enough compared to Grudge. Grudge can namely deal with Bridges, which Silence cant. And Jund has KCommand in addition for the Lantern matchup, I definitely want to be on the Jund side here. Reach is also important, and potential stuff like Hazoret or Chandra for the Lantern matchup.
I don't see why Silence matters that much for Tron, I personally have not won any Tron matchup on the spot when I jammed Silence. I rather have Bolts I think. And I think Jund has a better Tron matchup anyway than Abzan has. And all in all together both suck against them, definitely not a regard for me when I need to decide between them.
So only Souls and Gideon are arguments for me. And I think that doesn't make Abzan straight up better than Jund.
Also, you guys act like Rest in Peace is garbage. The ability to have things such as Runed Halo for Valakut decks. Rest in Peace for graveyard decks (HollowVine, Dredge, Storm).
Are you seriously saying you all would rather try to 1-for-1 Affinity than just shut down most of their synergies? Abzan also has spot removal too, but if I'm not terrified of Cranial Plating from turn 2 onwards, I'm fairly certain that opens a ton of breathing room. Even Leyline of Sanctity has uses.
Having Thoughtseize and Path to Exile in the same deck to beat EldraziTron also seems much better too.
Then there's Lingering Souls for the fair matches.
Also, you guys act like Rest in Peace is garbage. The ability to have things such as Runed Halo for Valakut decks. Rest in Peace for graveyard decks (HollowVine, Dredge, Storm).
Are you seriously saying you all would rather try to 1-for-1 Affinity than just shut down most of their synergies? Abzan also has spot removal too, but if I'm not terrified of Cranial Plating from turn 2 onwards, I'm fairly certain that opens a ton of breathing room. Even Leyline of Sanctity has uses.
Having Thoughtseize and Path to Exile in the same deck to beat EldraziTron also seems much better too.
Then there's Lingering Souls for the fair matches.
What am I missing?
Runed Halo is definitely an interesting card against Valakut. Thats a point for Abzan.
For the Affinity matchup, I really don't feel you need to play Abzan here due to the matchup. Affinity is one of my favourite matchups with Jund, its a good matchup, so I am very fine with it. I like destroying their threats permanently than shutting them off. But this is preference.
I am not a big fan of Path in general, don't like ramping the opponent. Its arguably better than Terminate vs. Big Mana, but I think on average worse in most other cases.
Souls is the only real argument left for me, which I don't have an counter argument for. Souls is very poweful, agreed. But I feel alot more comfortable with Jund since the printing of Liliana, the Last Hope, I really think this card is just nuts. Yeah you can run this card in Abzan too, but she allows me to battle against Souls while still having reach, higher speed and more removal in general with Jund's red cards (Jund has Bolt, Push Terminate and Abzan has only Path and Push, and I don't like path). Its just that I like the red more than white.
When it comes to the affinity matchup I think Jund has a clear advantage with K Command and Ancient Grudge VS Abzan's Stony Silence and Lingering Souls.
I'm just gonna throw this statement out there too; Lingering Souls isn't an argument for deck choice anymore when considering Jund or Abzan.
My reasoning; we now have Rabblemaster. The two cards have the same role in both decks. The only difference between the cards is is that Rabble is weaker to targeted removal and can ONLY pressure the opponent. The trade off for souls is a slower clock, but the card can be found with Grim Flayer and portioned out between two casts.
So, as stated somewhere before, it all comes down to play preferences. Do you like to pressure your opponent? Or do you like to play it safe and have them play into their demise?
In modern, I prefer to pressure. And that's why I play Jund instead of Abzan. Just my opinion, man.
When it comes to the affinity matchup I think Jund has a clear advantage with K Command and Ancient Grudge VS Abzan's Stony Silence and Lingering Souls.
I'm just gonna throw this statement out there too; Lingering Souls isn't an argument for deck choice anymore when considering Jund or Abzan.
My reasoning; we now have Rabblemaster. The two cards have the same role in both decks. The only difference between the cards is is that Rabble is weaker to targeted removal and can ONLY pressure the opponent. The trade off for souls is a slower clock, but the card can be found with Grim Flayer and portioned out between two casts.
So, as stated somewhere before, it all comes down to play preferences. Do you like to pressure your opponent? Or do you like to play it safe and have them play into their demise?
In modern, I prefer to pressure. And that's why I play Jund instead of Abzan. Just my opinion, man.
Rabblemaster and Lingering Souls do not fill the same role. Rabblemaster is there to clock slow decks. Lingering Souls is there to act as a sticky threat against grindy decks and control decks, and as a roadblock against aggro decks. They might fill the same cmc slot, but they do not fill the same role.
One reason I prefer Jund, which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, is that it just curves out better. But it's hard to explain. If you look at Jund vs Abzan lists, you will see that they have almost the exact same average cmc. But when you play the different decks, Jund just always feels smoother. And I think it has to do with Lingering Souls. The card can be very clunky sometimes, and doesn't pressure opponents well in the early game. Jund's gameplan in the early game is to go T1 1-drop, T2 2-drop, T3 3-drop(Lilly) OR 1-drop+2-Drop. Abzan's gameplan is similar, but it has less T1 interaction, and more 3 drops. So when Abzan goes T1 spell, T2 spell, T3 souls, the souls might put them behind on board or at least doesn't push an advantage. And Abzan is less likely to have a 1-drop plus 2-drop on T3 since it plays less 1cmc interaction (Path not included here).
I'm not saying Lingering Souls is bad. It's an insane card in many matchups. But it just makes the Abzan rock decks a little less smooth compared to Jund. In a midrange matchup, or against UW control, the clunkyness of Abzan doesn't matter because you don't need to pressure as fast as possible. But in other matchups where curving out is more important, Jund trumps abzan.
Even outside of arguing semantics and comparing sideboards and card selection, we shouldn't really even be debating which is better Abzan or Jund. That's not what this thread is supposed to be about. This thread should be how we can tune and tailor Jund to be the best it can be. Essentially it feels like you come into a thread to try and say, "You guys aren't playing my preferred variant of the GBx deck and therefore you guys are wrong and should just stop playing this deck altogether." In the end, none of that is helpful or contributes to a discussion of what we should be doing in Jund. I know it's impossible but I almost wish there were 3 threads. A Jund thread, an Abzan thread and a GBx thread. We could then relegate all comparison of the 2 decks and debates on why play one or the other to that third thread. The 2 specific threads should really be about tuning that desired variant.
Someone asked whether they should play Jund or stick with Abzan. I told them I'd rather go with Abzan, which prompted a question as to why. I answered that question and now you're mad we're talking about that? Sometimes I really wonder why I bother.
Someone asked whether they should play Jund or stick with Abzan. I told them I'd rather go with Abzan, which prompted a question as to why. I answered that question and now you're mad we're talking about that? Sometimes I really why I bother.
It just derailed the entire thread into a comparison between Abzan and Jund which IMO is not what this particular thread should be about. We've now gone on 2 pages that essentially ends up in preference territory. Answering the question is fine but it doesn't need 2 pages of card by card comparison between the 2 decks. That should be done in another thread altogether.
Comparing our deck to others is fine to do, and I think also helpful. It can help to evaluate the state of the deck and can help to improve. Sometimes strategies are copied in another archetype, so its totally fine to talk about it.
The only thing is it should be constructive, and sometimes opinions vary, and its important to accept all of them. I am personally in favor of jund, so I asked chaos why abzan was better, since I respect chaos' opinion on that. And I can see why chaos thinks that way, and thats fine. Ultimately its preference, but I think its not wrong to talk about it.
One reason I prefer Jund, which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, is that it just curves out better. But it's hard to explain. If you look at Jund vs Abzan lists, you will see that they have almost the exact same average cmc. But when you play the different decks, Jund just always feels smoother. And I think it has to do with Lingering Souls. The card can be very clunky sometimes, and doesn't pressure opponents well in the early game. Jund's gameplan in the early game is to go T1 1-drop, T2 2-drop, T3 3-drop(Lilly) OR 1-drop+2-Drop. Abzan's gameplan is similar, but it has less T1 interaction, and more 3 drops. So when Abzan goes T1 spell, T2 spell, T3 souls, the souls might put them behind on board or at least doesn't push an advantage. And Abzan is less likely to have a 1-drop plus 2-drop on T3 since it plays less 1cmc interaction (Path not included here).
I am not sure I agree fully here. I can agree that Jund has more T1 interaction, which is also what I personally like more about the deck. But the thing with Souls is, that its proactive rather than our reactive 3 drops. I think Abzan is therefore a lot times smoother since you can just jam Souls on 3 proactively, whereas you have to hold up our removal (like KCommand) against some decks and then you sometimes have unspent mana at the end of the opponents turns. This is also the reason Abzan can operate on 23 lands and Jund cant. (Except if you cut Ravine). We have Rabblemaster, but we cannot jam it on 3 against every deck, whereas Souls more often so.
And if you play Souls on 3, why should it not push in advantage? I dont get that.
All in all, it is true concerning T1 interaction, but not quite concening 3 drop cards I think.
Did anyone try a 7 discard main build lately? I was thinking whether it was better to help with our issues to attack opponents hands more. Makes grinding worse but might be the right thing to do now.
Did anyone try a 7 discard main build lately? I was thinking whether it was better to help with our issues to attack opponents hands more. Makes grinding worse but might be the right thing to do now.
I'm trying a build with 4 IoK, 3 TS in main with 1 more TS sideboard, along with 2 rabble and 1 hazoret main. The amount of discard was inspired by seeing Jadine's list with 4 IoK/2 TS and 2 TS sideboard. Haven't tested it a whole lot yet so we'll see how it goes.
I did with Hazoret. What type of metagame are you trying to beat up with that?
Well I have the feeling that our removal suite is just too situational at times, we dont have the efficiency in our renovals anymore like we used to. Decay is not at its best, lists cut pulse entirely and so on. Maybe attacking the hand helps to keep up efficiency in interaction. And thats basically the meta right now where this is needed. Decks dodge push which makes push awkward for example. Its hard to tell if its right, but might be worth the try.
All junk utilizes is stony silence, it can't even play RIP.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is definitely better than all of Jund's 4 drops though
It may not make that much difference in the final analysis, but Stony is quite a card.
I don't currently play Junk, so it obviously doesn't make a big difference to me, but then again, I don't currently play Jund either.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I don't see why Silence matters that much for Tron, I personally have not won any Tron matchup on the spot when I jammed Silence. I rather have Bolts I think. And I think Jund has a better Tron matchup anyway than Abzan has. And all in all together both suck against them, definitely not a regard for me when I need to decide between them.
So only Souls and Gideon are arguments for me. And I think that doesn't make Abzan straight up better than Jund.
Are you seriously saying you all would rather try to 1-for-1 Affinity than just shut down most of their synergies? Abzan also has spot removal too, but if I'm not terrified of Cranial Plating from turn 2 onwards, I'm fairly certain that opens a ton of breathing room. Even Leyline of Sanctity has uses.
Having Thoughtseize and Path to Exile in the same deck to beat EldraziTron also seems much better too.
Then there's Lingering Souls for the fair matches.
What am I missing?
Runed Halo is definitely an interesting card against Valakut. Thats a point for Abzan.
For the Affinity matchup, I really don't feel you need to play Abzan here due to the matchup. Affinity is one of my favourite matchups with Jund, its a good matchup, so I am very fine with it. I like destroying their threats permanently than shutting them off. But this is preference.
I am not a big fan of Path in general, don't like ramping the opponent. Its arguably better than Terminate vs. Big Mana, but I think on average worse in most other cases.
Souls is the only real argument left for me, which I don't have an counter argument for. Souls is very poweful, agreed. But I feel alot more comfortable with Jund since the printing of Liliana, the Last Hope, I really think this card is just nuts. Yeah you can run this card in Abzan too, but she allows me to battle against Souls while still having reach, higher speed and more removal in general with Jund's red cards (Jund has Bolt, Push Terminate and Abzan has only Path and Push, and I don't like path). Its just that I like the red more than white.
When it comes to the affinity matchup I think Jund has a clear advantage with K Command and Ancient Grudge VS Abzan's Stony Silence and Lingering Souls.
I'm just gonna throw this statement out there too; Lingering Souls isn't an argument for deck choice anymore when considering Jund or Abzan.
My reasoning; we now have Rabblemaster. The two cards have the same role in both decks. The only difference between the cards is is that Rabble is weaker to targeted removal and can ONLY pressure the opponent. The trade off for souls is a slower clock, but the card can be found with Grim Flayer and portioned out between two casts.
So, as stated somewhere before, it all comes down to play preferences. Do you like to pressure your opponent? Or do you like to play it safe and have them play into their demise?
In modern, I prefer to pressure. And that's why I play Jund instead of Abzan. Just my opinion, man.
Rabblemaster and Lingering Souls do not fill the same role. Rabblemaster is there to clock slow decks. Lingering Souls is there to act as a sticky threat against grindy decks and control decks, and as a roadblock against aggro decks. They might fill the same cmc slot, but they do not fill the same role.
One reason I prefer Jund, which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, is that it just curves out better. But it's hard to explain. If you look at Jund vs Abzan lists, you will see that they have almost the exact same average cmc. But when you play the different decks, Jund just always feels smoother. And I think it has to do with Lingering Souls. The card can be very clunky sometimes, and doesn't pressure opponents well in the early game. Jund's gameplan in the early game is to go T1 1-drop, T2 2-drop, T3 3-drop(Lilly) OR 1-drop+2-Drop. Abzan's gameplan is similar, but it has less T1 interaction, and more 3 drops. So when Abzan goes T1 spell, T2 spell, T3 souls, the souls might put them behind on board or at least doesn't push an advantage. And Abzan is less likely to have a 1-drop plus 2-drop on T3 since it plays less 1cmc interaction (Path not included here).
I'm not saying Lingering Souls is bad. It's an insane card in many matchups. But it just makes the Abzan rock decks a little less smooth compared to Jund. In a midrange matchup, or against UW control, the clunkyness of Abzan doesn't matter because you don't need to pressure as fast as possible. But in other matchups where curving out is more important, Jund trumps abzan.
It just derailed the entire thread into a comparison between Abzan and Jund which IMO is not what this particular thread should be about. We've now gone on 2 pages that essentially ends up in preference territory. Answering the question is fine but it doesn't need 2 pages of card by card comparison between the 2 decks. That should be done in another thread altogether.
The only thing is it should be constructive, and sometimes opinions vary, and its important to accept all of them. I am personally in favor of jund, so I asked chaos why abzan was better, since I respect chaos' opinion on that. And I can see why chaos thinks that way, and thats fine. Ultimately its preference, but I think its not wrong to talk about it.
I am not sure I agree fully here. I can agree that Jund has more T1 interaction, which is also what I personally like more about the deck. But the thing with Souls is, that its proactive rather than our reactive 3 drops. I think Abzan is therefore a lot times smoother since you can just jam Souls on 3 proactively, whereas you have to hold up our removal (like KCommand) against some decks and then you sometimes have unspent mana at the end of the opponents turns. This is also the reason Abzan can operate on 23 lands and Jund cant. (Except if you cut Ravine). We have Rabblemaster, but we cannot jam it on 3 against every deck, whereas Souls more often so.
And if you play Souls on 3, why should it not push in advantage? I dont get that.
All in all, it is true concerning T1 interaction, but not quite concening 3 drop cards I think.
I'm trying a build with 4 IoK, 3 TS in main with 1 more TS sideboard, along with 2 rabble and 1 hazoret main. The amount of discard was inspired by seeing Jadine's list with 4 IoK/2 TS and 2 TS sideboard. Haven't tested it a whole lot yet so we'll see how it goes.
Well I have the feeling that our removal suite is just too situational at times, we dont have the efficiency in our renovals anymore like we used to. Decay is not at its best, lists cut pulse entirely and so on. Maybe attacking the hand helps to keep up efficiency in interaction. And thats basically the meta right now where this is needed. Decks dodge push which makes push awkward for example. Its hard to tell if its right, but might be worth the try.