Yeah the thing is, I can bring in 6 cards from my SB (4 LoTV and 2 TS) with my current list. I have 2 Grudges, 1 PKN, 1 Anger, 1 Damnation and 1 LtLH. I could then bring in extra copies of Fulminator Mage to subsitute Rabblemaster (2 copies) or leave rabblemaster in and bring in no Fulminator Mages. So I am wandering if I should do that. I also think Fulminator is not efficient against Affinity, but might be better than Rabblemaster against them.
Taking out a land during sideboarding is a common tactic sure. If you read Frank Karsten's articles on mana balancing then the math checks out for a deck like Jund.
More specifically these are my rules of thumb on when to do it:
1. If I am on the draw
2. If I am playing against a deck where it's not very important to cast my four drops or I sided them out
Typical matchups that meet this criteria are Affinity, Bogles, Burn, Infect, Bushwhacker.
But once on the play I bring the 24th land back in.
If you keep Rabblemaster in against Affinity, you are basically agreeing to race them. But this matchup is not about racing imo,it is about killing all their stuff and then outgrinding them with your threats, which means I personally would prefer 2 Mages.
@Flying Delver, no Lavamancer in the sideboard? Card is nuts in a lot of matchups.
Damnation also kills Etched Champion 100 %, no matter what they have (Welding Jar or whatever). Its no mistake to leave in a couple of LotV, but an experiences Affinity player will play around this every time. You kinda need Ancient Grudge alongside Lili to pull this off. I personally like relying more on single card answers like Damnation and Kozilek's Return.
And IOK is probably the best card we have against Champion, like literally. And thats because we are more likely to draw one copy of IOK than our single sweeper. Often times IOK has won me games due to hitting Champion. I would always leave in 3-4 copies of IOK, on the play more, on the draw less.
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
Am wandering about something: What do we want more vs. Affinity? Rabblemaster or Fulminator Mage?
In the affinity matchup, I have a mentality of "kill on sight".
Every piece to their puzzle is absolutely relevant. Of course, you have to prioritize their haymaker's like ravagers, overseers, and their 3-drops consisting of robot Masters and Champions. But I rarely hesitate to Decay/Grudge their drums, shoot Ornithopters out of the sky, and trade my Bobs freely with any ground creatures if possible. This is all to lessen the greater threat of them accumulating a board state I cannot deal with.
I board out LoTV, Oozes, and Rabbles here. Then grab for any ounce of removal in my sideboard.
The reason why I REALLY like Fullminator here is because I drop to 4 Goyfs and 4 Bob and 3 Ravine as my ONLY creatures with this strategy (before sideboard cards come in). So bringing in more creatures (ie. Fullminator and Lavamancer for me) gives me more insurance to actually finish the game. Very often my games will finish with my opponent having less permanents then they can count on one hand. And the strategy has proven very effective for me so far.
Looking at the top8 decks...
3 Land-based Midrange/Combo
2 Bogles
1 UW Control
1 Grixis Death Shadow
1 Dredge
So bogles mostly comes down to if we see LoTV or not, but I feel like the more grindy midrange version of Jund has absolutely no game against this top 8... just my personal opinion.
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
I am liking the Ghost Quarter idea and want to test it a bit. My SB looks a little strange, but basically I have a more diverse SB now, similar tools but with different strenghts.
Am wandering about something: What do we want more vs. Affinity? Rabblemaster or Fulminator Mage?
In the affinity matchup, I have a mentality of "kill on sight".
Every piece to their puzzle is absolutely relevant. Of course, you have to prioritize their haymaker's like ravagers, overseers, and their 3-drops consisting of robot Masters and Champions. But I rarely hesitate to Decay/Grudge their drums, shoot Ornithopters out of the sky, and trade my Bobs freely with any ground creatures if possible. This is all to lessen the greater threat of them accumulating a board state I cannot deal with.
I board out LoTV, Oozes, and Rabbles here. Then grab for any ounce of removal in my sideboard.
The reason why I REALLY like Fullminator here is because I drop to 4 Goyfs and 4 Bob and 3 Ravine as my ONLY creatures with this strategy (before sideboard cards come in). So bringing in more creatures (ie. Fullminator and Lavamancer for me) gives me more insurance to actually finish the game. Very often my games will finish with my opponent having less permanents then they can count on one hand. And the strategy has proven very effective for me so far.
I agree with that, but I would side out TS over Ooze first. You don't want that much discard here, and life totals matter. Ooze is not that bad vs. Affinity, often it can grow into a giant threat and the extra life gain is really nice at times.
They are playing a more grindy version over the rabblemaster aggro versions.
Thoughts on this?
Seem really greedy to me. Only 23 lands and 11 3 drops is insane. Tracker is an ok thing to have, but I don't think we want him right now. We either want a big drop attacking go-wide strategies (Affinity, Humans Abzan Coco and so on) or Rabblemaster prob.
If this were your meta what Jund list would you register? Being able to skimp on GY and Affinity hate frees up a lot of sideboard slots and a known meta allows for some mainboard hedging...
A friend of mine will be hosting a small modern "event" soon and afaik none of us have multiple modern decks.
Actually that is a pretty tough meta for Jund. UW Control is a really bad matchup, you want 4 LotV here and probably Thrun the last Troll and Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Jeskai is also bad, but better. Skred Red just destroys midrange, Thoughtseize and GOyf is your friend here.
Elves and Burn are ok to handle. All in all I would play a standard list, 24 lands, 4 LotV and 1 Chandra SB, and 2 Thruns in the SB. Then some sweepers for Elves and at least 3 CB for Burn and also Elves. Kitchen Finks is also decent here.
Play at least 2 Decay, bc of BM of Skred and Detention Sphere/Spreading Seas of Control. Fulminators seem really bad here, am not a fan of them against Control. You want a Grudge against Skred, they run a bunch of Artifacts. A second Pulse is mandatory for Skred and Control PWs. Spellbomb is nice to get Snapcaster but probably not needed. You could run something else here. I do not like KCommand here that much, against Control its awkward due to path, against elves and burn its to clunky and for Skred its not the best. I would only play 1 due to this.
Maindeckwise, I think 4 LotV and an extra Lili is mandatory, the Liliana, the Last Hope is also great vs. Control and Elves. Grim Lavamancer is decent here and way better than the third Ooze.
I like kcommand against burn. Making them discard and take dmg is honestly my mb plan against them ever since I discovered it playing grixis control. Its not the best plan but 2 damage and making them discard during the draw phase has saved me when they get into top deck mode quite a few times.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
I know of at least one Affinity player who keeps Master of Etherium in when Etched Champion is boarded in. That isn't to dispute that Kozilek's return is a good card in the match-up. Most Affinity players tend to run one or the other and I usually drop one Master when the Champs come in so it's two-three split after boarding.
Another card I really like against decks like Jund is Pia's Revolution but it doesn't seem to have caught on with other Affinity players.
I like kcommand against burn. Making them discard and take dmg is honestly my mb plan against them ever since I discovered it playing grixis control. Its not the best plan but 2 damage and making them discard during the draw phase has saved me when they get into top deck mode quite a few times.
That is true, that is relevant sometimes. I also made that play once and got to discard an otherwise lethal Lava Spike with KCommand. However, in Jund, it is not the best and primary tool to have against Burn. 1 Mana discard and removal alongiside some lifegain (ooze, CB) and Lili disruption usually does the trick. KCommand helps surely, But we want cheaper stuff against Burn I feel.
Etched Champion is usually the reason I lose to affinity, been having a pretty bad run against affinity as of late. Heading into GP OKC I am definitely going to be ready for that matchup. In the main I am running a Grim Lavamancer and a Kalitas (which is not amazing but decent enough vs affinity if we can slow them enough, great vs ravager and races favorably). In the sb i plan on running the following options vs affinity: 1 damnation, 2 grudges, 1 kozileks return, 1 anger of the gods and 1 shatterstorm. I'd like to add another k return and cut anger just bc it is such a great answer for everything they have except ravager but its hard to justify when anger is so much better vs coco, humans, dredge and other aggro decks... so thats my conundrum at the moment
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
I know of at least one Affinity player who keeps Master of Etherium in when Etched Champion is boarded in. That isn't to dispute that Kozilek's return is a good card in the match-up. Most Affinity players tend to run one or the other and I usually drop one Master when the Champs come in so it's two-three split after boarding.
Another card I really like against decks like Jund is Pia's Revolution but it doesn't seem to have caught on with other Affinity players.
I don't mind Master at all personally. We have plenty of ways to kill him before we KReturn. Almost every removal does it, besides Bolt and Lili most of the times. I am actually happy if they leave it in. I can then trade my Terminates/Pushes with a 3 mana invest rather than a 0 or 1 mana invest with a plating attached to it.
Pia's Revolution is a really nasty card perfect for this kind of matchup, but a big investment for Affinity. I would not like to see that card though.
my meta has a bunch of control and bigmana decks, would people mind sharing their Jund lists that have Bloodmoon in the sideboard? Im also thinking Choke against uw control, grixis control and grixis deathshadow.
Also Bloodmoon against affinity, death and taxes and burn, yay or nay?
my meta has a bunch of control and bigmana decks, would people mind sharing their Jund lists that have Bloodmoon in the sideboard? Im also thinking Choke against uw control, grixis control and grixis deathshadow.
Also Bloodmoon against affinity, death and taxes and burn, yay or nay?
Just run 2 or 3 swamps and 1-2 Forests (So either 3/1 spit or 2/2 split of basics) and 9 fetchlands in your manabase. Then you should prob run 2 or 3 Rabblemaster maindeck and the rest is pretty standard I would say. I would consider going down on Pushes/Terminates and play more Bolts, like 3 or so. Here is an example:
SB is a little iffy, depends on your meta of course and numbers and cards should be changed a little. Maindeckwise, you could conside cutting the bolt for push if you feel push is still better in your meta, and also consider if you want to have 2 decays or not. 3/3 split of discard due to Big Mana and Control. Choke is ok against the matchups you described, try it by any means, but note that its not that great against straight UW Control (Due to Seachrome Coast and such).
Blood Moon: Never bring it in against Affinity, its hurting you more. Often they will bring it in against you actually. Its not worth it to try to "snap" games here. Just max on removal and grind them out.
Death and Taxes depends. If they are Eldrazi and Taxes then maybe. But you need to be able to remvoe their Vials then. For Burn, definitely not I think. You are not shutting down much in their deck, you much more rather want to play an Anger or LOTV with that mana. And in addition you want multiple green sources to heal with Ooze. Ravine also often shuts down games in the end. And lately Burn decks are more Boros versions than Naya.
More specifically these are my rules of thumb on when to do it:
1. If I am on the draw
2. If I am playing against a deck where it's not very important to cast my four drops or I sided them out
Typical matchups that meet this criteria are Affinity, Bogles, Burn, Infect, Bushwhacker.
But once on the play I bring the 24th land back in.
@Flying Delver, no Lavamancer in the sideboard? Card is nuts in a lot of matchups.
Yeah probably I like the Mages also a little bit better here.
And IOK is probably the best card we have against Champion, like literally. And thats because we are more likely to draw one copy of IOK than our single sweeper. Often times IOK has won me games due to hitting Champion. I would always leave in 3-4 copies of IOK, on the play more, on the draw less.
I would cut the Shatterstorm for another KReturn. Why would run want Shatterstorm is the question? KReturn is good vs other matchups as well, and most of the times KReturn kills a Champion. (the only way I could think of would be Welding Jar or Ravager, if he puts a counter on the Champion in response)
What’s your latest 75 flyingdelver?
In the affinity matchup, I have a mentality of "kill on sight".
Every piece to their puzzle is absolutely relevant. Of course, you have to prioritize their haymaker's like ravagers, overseers, and their 3-drops consisting of robot Masters and Champions. But I rarely hesitate to Decay/Grudge their drums, shoot Ornithopters out of the sky, and trade my Bobs freely with any ground creatures if possible. This is all to lessen the greater threat of them accumulating a board state I cannot deal with.
I board out LoTV, Oozes, and Rabbles here. Then grab for any ounce of removal in my sideboard.
The reason why I REALLY like Fullminator here is because I drop to 4 Goyfs and 4 Bob and 3 Ravine as my ONLY creatures with this strategy (before sideboard cards come in). So bringing in more creatures (ie. Fullminator and Lavamancer for me) gives me more insurance to actually finish the game. Very often my games will finish with my opponent having less permanents then they can count on one hand. And the strategy has proven very effective for me so far.
2 Jund lists in the top 30 modern challenge.
They are playing a more grindy version over the rabblemaster aggro versions.
Thoughts on this?
Personally, not a fan of the lists. But if stuff works, I cannot argue with placings. Here are things that stick out to me;
MINDOFAKID (11TH PLACE)
- 23 Lands
- 2 Grim Lavamancers Main Board
- Tireless Tracker
- No Abrupt Decay
EVERT (15TH PLACE)
- 23 Lands
- Tireless Tracker
- 61 card list????
- 11 3cmc cards
- Thundermaw Sideboard
Looking at the top8 decks...
3 Land-based Midrange/Combo
2 Bogles
1 UW Control
1 Grixis Death Shadow
1 Dredge
So bogles mostly comes down to if we see LoTV or not, but I feel like the more grindy midrange version of Jund has absolutely no game against this top 8... just my personal opinion.
Currently this is my list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
Creatures [13]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
I am liking the Ghost Quarter idea and want to test it a bit. My SB looks a little strange, but basically I have a more diverse SB now, similar tools but with different strenghts.
I agree with that, but I would side out TS over Ooze first. You don't want that much discard here, and life totals matter. Ooze is not that bad vs. Affinity, often it can grow into a giant threat and the extra life gain is really nice at times.
Seem really greedy to me. Only 23 lands and 11 3 drops is insane. Tracker is an ok thing to have, but I don't think we want him right now. We either want a big drop attacking go-wide strategies (Affinity, Humans Abzan Coco and so on) or Rabblemaster prob.
I like kcommand against burn. Making them discard and take dmg is honestly my mb plan against them ever since I discovered it playing grixis control. Its not the best plan but 2 damage and making them discard during the draw phase has saved me when they get into top deck mode quite a few times.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I know of at least one Affinity player who keeps Master of Etherium in when Etched Champion is boarded in. That isn't to dispute that Kozilek's return is a good card in the match-up. Most Affinity players tend to run one or the other and I usually drop one Master when the Champs come in so it's two-three split after boarding.
Another card I really like against decks like Jund is Pia's Revolution but it doesn't seem to have caught on with other Affinity players.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
That is true, that is relevant sometimes. I also made that play once and got to discard an otherwise lethal Lava Spike with KCommand. However, in Jund, it is not the best and primary tool to have against Burn. 1 Mana discard and removal alongiside some lifegain (ooze, CB) and Lili disruption usually does the trick. KCommand helps surely, But we want cheaper stuff against Burn I feel.
I don't mind Master at all personally. We have plenty of ways to kill him before we KReturn. Almost every removal does it, besides Bolt and Lili most of the times. I am actually happy if they leave it in. I can then trade my Terminates/Pushes with a 3 mana invest rather than a 0 or 1 mana invest with a plating attached to it.
Pia's Revolution is a really nasty card perfect for this kind of matchup, but a big investment for Affinity. I would not like to see that card though.
Also Bloodmoon against affinity, death and taxes and burn, yay or nay?
Just run 2 or 3 swamps and 1-2 Forests (So either 3/1 spit or 2/2 split of basics) and 9 fetchlands in your manabase. Then you should prob run 2 or 3 Rabblemaster maindeck and the rest is pretty standard I would say. I would consider going down on Pushes/Terminates and play more Bolts, like 3 or so. Here is an example:
4 Vedant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures [13]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Inquisiton of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Blood Moon
1 Choke
2 Collective Brtutality
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grindy Creature (PKN, Olivia, another Thrun, Huntmaster)
2 Extra Slots
SB is a little iffy, depends on your meta of course and numbers and cards should be changed a little. Maindeckwise, you could conside cutting the bolt for push if you feel push is still better in your meta, and also consider if you want to have 2 decays or not. 3/3 split of discard due to Big Mana and Control. Choke is ok against the matchups you described, try it by any means, but note that its not that great against straight UW Control (Due to Seachrome Coast and such).
Blood Moon: Never bring it in against Affinity, its hurting you more. Often they will bring it in against you actually. Its not worth it to try to "snap" games here. Just max on removal and grind them out.
Death and Taxes depends. If they are Eldrazi and Taxes then maybe. But you need to be able to remvoe their Vials then. For Burn, definitely not I think. You are not shutting down much in their deck, you much more rather want to play an Anger or LOTV with that mana. And in addition you want multiple green sources to heal with Ooze. Ravine also often shuts down games in the end. And lately Burn decks are more Boros versions than Naya.