Especially since I was the first one to say this deck was on its death bed
I am not agreeing on Jund being on its death bed, but its certainly hard to win tournaments now. I play Jund every FNM still, I do also manage to have more wins than losses but ever so often I get paired against some kind of Big Mana deck which screws with my score and prevents me from winning the FNMs. I am always up in the better half of the participants but am struggling to reach to number 1. I feel there are just too many bad or hard matchups for Jund where we just have too many dead cards. We are the king of removal, but against all those Scapehisft, Tron or Control decks it feels at least a third of our deck is just dead. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So its definitely hard to pilot the deck and adjusting it to the meta when half of the meta just dodges most of our goodstuff cards.
Hey didn't know you check in on this thread! Was a treat seeing you do that make-or-die play with Bob, choosing to terminate the Sculler instead of Flickerwisp. What was the thought process behind that decision?
Would love a deck tech - how instrumental has Hazoret been for you?
Anyway, best of luck
Basically I was at 4 life with Blood moon in play when i drew terminate, sculler had my damnation and flickerwisp was going to bring me down to 1 on its next attack. The decision was to either kill flickerwisp and hope i find an answer for my own Bob before it kills me, mind you my opponent is locked by my moon but he still has a swamp in play and could potentially draw a fatal push to kill my bob and start attacking w his sculler. I felt like my opponent still had live draws and i also knew that I had lots of turns where my own bob could kill me if i dont draw a removal spell for it. Therefore, I went for the high risk high reward play of killing sculler since that meant i had to only dodge one bob trigger as I was getting my damnation back to my hand but couldnt cast it the same turn due to my own moon. It ended up working out, I was very conscious that I needed to get lucky, but this involved getting lucky only once, the other option involved getting lucky potentially multiple times and that was my reasoning.
Hazoret was insane the whole tournament, I loved it. I just wish I would have played vs grixis DS a bit more. Hazy absolutely seals the game in that matchup, I didnt play against DS until day 2 when i was already dead for top 8. I did however play vs tron 4 times and went 2-2, the wins involved blood moon draws and the losses where those games that I didn't have the moons. Matchup is just so hard.
My buddy Michael Olson finished top 32, we had a pretty similar list. He decided to go against blood moon in favor of fulminator mage. But I convinced him into running a Hazoret and he told me that it was great for him. He had a split of 1 kalitas and 1 hazy, where I had 2 Hazorets. In retrospect, maybe I should have had that same split with Kalitas, since Kalitas is great vs matter reshaper and races tron pretty well, I just thought that DS was going to be more popular. But I was wrong, tron was everywhere!
I am not agreeing on Jund being on its death bed, but its certainly hard to win tournaments now. I play Jund every FNM still, I do also manage to have more wins than losses but ever so often I get paired against some kind of Big Mana deck which screws with my score and prevents me from winning the FNMs. I am always up in the better half of the participants but am struggling to reach to number 1. I feel there are just too many bad or hard matchups for Jund where we just have too many dead cards. We are the king of removal, but against all those Scapehisft, Tron or Control decks it feels at least a third of our deck is just dead. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So its definitely hard to pilot the deck and adjusting it to the meta when half of the meta just dodges most of our goodstuff cards.
My win % vs big mana decks has improved a ton with blood moon. Scapeshift is a cake walk once you slam the moon. Tron is the only matchup where they are still capable of winning through the blood moon, thanks to expedition map and having all is dust. Still don't really know how to improve that matchup, been trying several things but ive only managed to go 50/50 vs them.
Hazoret was insane the whole tournament, I loved it. I just wish I would have played vs grixis DS a bit more. Hazy absolutely seals the game in that matchup, I didnt play against DS until day 2 when i was already dead for top 8. I did however play vs tron 4 times and went 2-2, the wins involved blood moon draws and the losses where those games that I didn't have the moons. Matchup is just so hard.
My buddy Michael Olson finished top 32, we had a pretty similar list. He decided to go against blood moon in favor of fulminator mage. But I convinced him into running a Hazoret and he told me that it was great for him. He had a split of 1 kalitas and 1 hazy, where I had 2 Hazorets. In retrospect, maybe I should have had that same split with Kalitas, since Kalitas is great vs matter reshaper and races tron pretty well, I just thought that DS was going to be more popular. But I was wrong, tron was everywhere!
I've been on the Hazoret train since day one. She can be straight ridiculous in some matchups and is the real deal. I'm glad you guys felt the same way.
I am always up in the better half of the participants but am struggling to reach to number 1. I feel there are just too many bad or hard matchups for Jund where we just have too many dead cards. We are the king of removal, but against all those Scapehisft, Tron or Control decks it feels at least a third of our deck is just dead. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So its definitely hard to pilot the deck and adjusting it to the meta when half of the meta just dodges most of our goodstuff cards.
Completetly agree with this statement and I have the exact same feeling from Championnat of France's Modern PPTQ and my 2 last PPTQ.
With less deck based on creatures, we are less efficient. To have a perfect tournament you should face Vizir Company, Affinity, Elves or other decks like those, but if you play against UW then Valakut or Tron, you already know that you won't finish on the top places ...
Hey thanks for the reply. That gamble paid off spectacularly.
My only concern with blood moon is if you don't pull a decent opening 7 with fetches / basics, having the blood moon is just feel-bad. How often has that happened to you?
I've always felt that Hazoret was good against the Eldrazi decks and fits right into a blood moon build. What are your thoughts on Tracker, and whether cutting 1 Scooze like your friend Michael Olson did to fit Tracker in was a good call?
Sorry for the bombardment of questions - what were your matchups throughout the whole 2 days? Would appreciate a short run down of how the games went against what decks. I imagine the Jund pilots having to really earn every win, given the metas as it is. A shame they didn't show Tyler Lutes much on camera
Played last night, bombed out at 2-2. I think I made a punt (but not super obvious one) against Grixis Death Shadow
Delver was right, there's just so much to earn now.
I can't justify this deck over Abzan now, especially since this deck really has to grind it's win against Death Shadow, whereas lingering soul is such an awful card for Shadow.
Until BBE is unbanned or bolt is good again, I think this deck is staying tier 3.
Hey didn't know you check in on this thread! Was a treat seeing you do that make-or-die play with Bob, choosing to terminate the Sculler instead of Flickerwisp. What was the thought process behind that decision?
Would love a deck tech - how instrumental has Hazoret been for you?
Anyway, best of luck
Basically I was at 4 life with Blood moon in play when i drew terminate, sculler had my damnation and flickerwisp was going to bring me down to 1 on its next attack. The decision was to either kill flickerwisp and hope i find an answer for my own Bob before it kills me, mind you my opponent is locked by my moon but he still has a swamp in play and could potentially draw a fatal push to kill my bob and start attacking w his sculler. I felt like my opponent still had live draws and i also knew that I had lots of turns where my own bob could kill me if i dont draw a removal spell for it. Therefore, I went for the high risk high reward play of killing sculler since that meant i had to only dodge one bob trigger as I was getting my damnation back to my hand but couldnt cast it the same turn due to my own moon. It ended up working out, I was very conscious that I needed to get lucky, but this involved getting lucky only once, the other option involved getting lucky potentially multiple times and that was my reasoning.
Hazoret was insane the whole tournament, I loved it. I just wish I would have played vs grixis DS a bit more. Hazy absolutely seals the game in that matchup, I didnt play against DS until day 2 when i was already dead for top 8. I did however play vs tron 4 times and went 2-2, the wins involved blood moon draws and the losses where those games that I didn't have the moons. Matchup is just so hard.
My buddy Michael Olson finished top 32, we had a pretty similar list. He decided to go against blood moon in favor of fulminator mage. But I convinced him into running a Hazoret and he told me that it was great for him. He had a split of 1 kalitas and 1 hazy, where I had 2 Hazorets. In retrospect, maybe I should have had that same split with Kalitas, since Kalitas is great vs matter reshaper and races tron pretty well, I just thought that DS was going to be more popular. But I was wrong, tron was everywhere!
I am not agreeing on Jund being on its death bed, but its certainly hard to win tournaments now. I play Jund every FNM still, I do also manage to have more wins than losses but ever so often I get paired against some kind of Big Mana deck which screws with my score and prevents me from winning the FNMs. I am always up in the better half of the participants but am struggling to reach to number 1. I feel there are just too many bad or hard matchups for Jund where we just have too many dead cards. We are the king of removal, but against all those Scapehisft, Tron or Control decks it feels at least a third of our deck is just dead. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So its definitely hard to pilot the deck and adjusting it to the meta when half of the meta just dodges most of our goodstuff cards.
My win % vs big mana decks has improved a ton with blood moon. Scapeshift is a cake walk once you slam the moon. Tron is the only matchup where they are still capable of winning through the blood moon, thanks to expedition map and having all is dust. Still don't really know how to improve that matchup, been trying several things but ive only managed to go 50/50 vs them.
You could play Damping Matrix, lock out their expedition maps, oblivion stones, and other artifact abilities they play.
You could play Damping Matrix, lock out their expedition maps, oblivion stones, and other artifact abilities they play.
Abzan plays Stony Silence against them and I think we all know this doesn't change the matchup to a favorable one in any way. And Stony Silence comes down on turn 2 possibly. Because Matrix showing up as early as turn 3 it doesn't seem that great against their eggs and maps. Hell, on turn 3 you could be facing a Karn or Wurmcoil already. Matrix won't do anything here. And that one mana difference is huge I think. Silence is just on the good enough side of things for Abzan, its definitely not a "I win the match" card. Stony Silence is a good hate card, not to get me wrong, but I think Jund can't search for subsitutes like Matrix for that purpose.
I thought about my meta and the upcoming PW changes a bit. Basically I do have a third Big Mana (Scapeshift and Tron) a third Control (UW Control, Jeskai) and a third creature based decks (Affinity, Living End, CoCo decks, Bant Spirits or whatever). I want to try this list as a starting point to see if the new PW rule can help us out. Clearly I am aware that Jund is struggling hard in this kind of meta. Going to play it anyways because why not.
In that meta, I would be tempted to take a page out of Jadine's book and give Goblin Rabblemaster a try. She specifically wanted it as a way to speed up her clock against the big mana decks, while also citing the "army in a can" aspect as being appealing vs removal heavy decks. From your list, I would go:
-1 Bolt
-1 Ooze
+2 Rabblemaster
In that meta, I would be tempted to take a page out of Jadine's book and give Goblin Rabblemaster a try. She specifically wanted it as a way to speed up her clock against the big mana decks, while also citing the "army in a can" aspect as being appealing vs removal heavy decks. From your list, I would go:
-1 Bolt
-1 Ooze
+2 Rabblemaster
Thats an interesting suggestion, I think I could try it at least. Thanks for the tip!
This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway ...
Does the number of Fulminators played affect the number of Kolaghan's Command being played. I ask because I am trying out the Blood Moon package, and no Fulminators, so I wonder if two Commands is still necessary?
This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway ...
Does the number of Fulminators played affect the number of Kolaghan's Command being played. I ask because I am trying out the Blood Moon package, and no Fulminators, so I wonder if two Commands is still necessary?
My personal belief is dont drop below 2 as it helps in more matchups then just reusing a fulminator mage. Its an amazing card
@Flying Delver: in the primer part for bant eldrazi matchups in the planeswalkers removal for other cards you suggested bringing in the very card you removed.
On a side note i accidentally placed a Sprouting Thrinax in my SB when reaching for 2 jund charms. Turns out it won me the match when we went to top deck wars in a jund vs jund match.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
When I switched from Junk to Jund, Kolaghan's Command was the card that impressed me most by far. It's probably my favorite red card in Jund now. What could you possibly be cutting it for? It's Jund's Lingering Souls in a lot of ways
Random hypothetical question here for you older Jund players: if BBE were legal how many would we run? I didn't play Jund back in those days, and I see that now we only run 2 4-drops. Would BBE just be a 2-of?
This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway ...
Does the number of Fulminators played affect the number of Kolaghan's Command being played. I ask because I am trying out the Blood Moon package, and no Fulminators, so I wonder if two Commands is still necessary?
I will always play at least 1 copy, but I personally think it depends on the meta whether you want more or not. It is indeed a flexible tool that can be great in a lot of ways, but sometimes you want other cards more in your meta. Playing 2 is probably never wrong though. Just jam a few games and see if you like the card or not. You can then cut down on it if you like.
@Flying Delver: in the primer part for bant eldrazi matchups in the planeswalkers removal for other cards you suggested bringing in the very card you removed.
Thats right, thanks for letting me know, I fixed it. I guess it is not as big of a deal nowadays bc there is basically no Bant Eldrazi anymore. But still, the primer should be correct as much as possible.
I thought about my meta and the upcoming PW changes a bit. Basically I do have a third Big Mana (Scapeshift and Tron) a third Control (UW Control, Jeskai) and a third creature based decks (Affinity, Living End, CoCo decks, Bant Spirits or whatever). I want to try this list as a starting point to see if the new PW rule can help us out. Clearly I am aware that Jund is struggling hard in this kind of meta. Going to play it anyways because why not.
I'm a big fan of this list. Personally, I would probably trade the fourth Bolt for a third Push, but that's such minor change. How has the Removal suit been performing overall as 4/2/2/3 Bolt/Push/Decay/Terminate?
I am not agreeing on Jund being on its death bed, but its certainly hard to win tournaments now. I play Jund every FNM still, I do also manage to have more wins than losses but ever so often I get paired against some kind of Big Mana deck which screws with my score and prevents me from winning the FNMs. I am always up in the better half of the participants but am struggling to reach to number 1. I feel there are just too many bad or hard matchups for Jund where we just have too many dead cards. We are the king of removal, but against all those Scapehisft, Tron or Control decks it feels at least a third of our deck is just dead. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So its definitely hard to pilot the deck and adjusting it to the meta when half of the meta just dodges most of our goodstuff cards.
Basically I was at 4 life with Blood moon in play when i drew terminate, sculler had my damnation and flickerwisp was going to bring me down to 1 on its next attack. The decision was to either kill flickerwisp and hope i find an answer for my own Bob before it kills me, mind you my opponent is locked by my moon but he still has a swamp in play and could potentially draw a fatal push to kill my bob and start attacking w his sculler. I felt like my opponent still had live draws and i also knew that I had lots of turns where my own bob could kill me if i dont draw a removal spell for it. Therefore, I went for the high risk high reward play of killing sculler since that meant i had to only dodge one bob trigger as I was getting my damnation back to my hand but couldnt cast it the same turn due to my own moon. It ended up working out, I was very conscious that I needed to get lucky, but this involved getting lucky only once, the other option involved getting lucky potentially multiple times and that was my reasoning.
Hazoret was insane the whole tournament, I loved it. I just wish I would have played vs grixis DS a bit more. Hazy absolutely seals the game in that matchup, I didnt play against DS until day 2 when i was already dead for top 8. I did however play vs tron 4 times and went 2-2, the wins involved blood moon draws and the losses where those games that I didn't have the moons. Matchup is just so hard.
My buddy Michael Olson finished top 32, we had a pretty similar list. He decided to go against blood moon in favor of fulminator mage. But I convinced him into running a Hazoret and he told me that it was great for him. He had a split of 1 kalitas and 1 hazy, where I had 2 Hazorets. In retrospect, maybe I should have had that same split with Kalitas, since Kalitas is great vs matter reshaper and races tron pretty well, I just thought that DS was going to be more popular. But I was wrong, tron was everywhere!
My win % vs big mana decks has improved a ton with blood moon. Scapeshift is a cake walk once you slam the moon. Tron is the only matchup where they are still capable of winning through the blood moon, thanks to expedition map and having all is dust. Still don't really know how to improve that matchup, been trying several things but ive only managed to go 50/50 vs them.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I've been on the Hazoret train since day one. She can be straight ridiculous in some matchups and is the real deal. I'm glad you guys felt the same way.
In addition to the 3 Jund decks in the top 32 of Louisville, I also noticed that another list won an IQ
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116153
This was the best weekend for Jund in a while.
I'm curious to see what lists are going to be the best moving forward (classic, blood moon, rabble master,Lilliana heavy)
Completetly agree with this statement and I have the exact same feeling from Championnat of France's Modern PPTQ and my 2 last PPTQ.
With less deck based on creatures, we are less efficient. To have a perfect tournament you should face Vizir Company, Affinity, Elves or other decks like those, but if you play against UW then Valakut or Tron, you already know that you won't finish on the top places ...
Gus
My only concern with blood moon is if you don't pull a decent opening 7 with fetches / basics, having the blood moon is just feel-bad. How often has that happened to you?
I've always felt that Hazoret was good against the Eldrazi decks and fits right into a blood moon build. What are your thoughts on Tracker, and whether cutting 1 Scooze like your friend Michael Olson did to fit Tracker in was a good call?
Sorry for the bombardment of questions - what were your matchups throughout the whole 2 days? Would appreciate a short run down of how the games went against what decks. I imagine the Jund pilots having to really earn every win, given the metas as it is. A shame they didn't show Tyler Lutes much on camera
Delver was right, there's just so much to earn now.
I can't justify this deck over Abzan now, especially since this deck really has to grind it's win against Death Shadow, whereas lingering soul is such an awful card for Shadow.
Until BBE is unbanned or bolt is good again, I think this deck is staying tier 3.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35851_The-Price-Of-A-Card.html
I wonder if she would make any changes to her 75
You could play Damping Matrix, lock out their expedition maps, oblivion stones, and other artifact abilities they play.
Abzan plays Stony Silence against them and I think we all know this doesn't change the matchup to a favorable one in any way. And Stony Silence comes down on turn 2 possibly. Because Matrix showing up as early as turn 3 it doesn't seem that great against their eggs and maps. Hell, on turn 3 you could be facing a Karn or Wurmcoil already. Matrix won't do anything here. And that one mana difference is huge I think. Silence is just on the good enough side of things for Abzan, its definitely not a "I win the match" card. Stony Silence is a good hate card, not to get me wrong, but I think Jund can't search for subsitutes like Matrix for that purpose.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
3 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures [12]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Olivia Voldaren
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Ancient Grudge
-1 Bolt
-1 Ooze
+2 Rabblemaster
Thats an interesting suggestion, I think I could try it at least. Thanks for the tip!
Does the number of Fulminators played affect the number of Kolaghan's Command being played. I ask because I am trying out the Blood Moon package, and no Fulminators, so I wonder if two Commands is still necessary?
My personal belief is dont drop below 2 as it helps in more matchups then just reusing a fulminator mage. Its an amazing card
@Flying Delver: in the primer part for bant eldrazi matchups in the planeswalkers removal for other cards you suggested bringing in the very card you removed.
On a side note i accidentally placed a Sprouting Thrinax in my SB when reaching for 2 jund charms. Turns out it won me the match when we went to top deck wars in a jund vs jund match.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Random hypothetical question here for you older Jund players: if BBE were legal how many would we run? I didn't play Jund back in those days, and I see that now we only run 2 4-drops. Would BBE just be a 2-of?
I will always play at least 1 copy, but I personally think it depends on the meta whether you want more or not. It is indeed a flexible tool that can be great in a lot of ways, but sometimes you want other cards more in your meta. Playing 2 is probably never wrong though. Just jam a few games and see if you like the card or not. You can then cut down on it if you like.
Thats right, thanks for letting me know, I fixed it. I guess it is not as big of a deal nowadays bc there is basically no Bant Eldrazi anymore. But still, the primer should be correct as much as possible.
I'm a big fan of this list. Personally, I would probably trade the fourth Bolt for a third Push, but that's such minor change. How has the Removal suit been performing overall as 4/2/2/3 Bolt/Push/Decay/Terminate?
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow