Sadly enough, more often than not, even if you have fulminator, you still lose. The tron player will reach 7 lands eventually. Fulminator is nowhere near a silver bullet, and still thats our best card. This combined with the fact that we have so little interaction against them makes its so bad.
Yea we tap out on turn 3 for fulminator, blow up the land. We can't apply pressure. Same on turn 4, we are left with 1 open mana, can't apply pressure. tron merrily continues to play lands to stick it to us
How about charms in side boards? Im thinking to play 2 rakdos 2 jund 2 golgari. Charms has some versatility which i like
Charms all have the same problem: They provide some flexibility, but in specific cases, they are just underwhelming and overcosted for what they do. I wouldn't touch Rakdos or Jund Charm due to this. Golgari Charm is the only little exception here, since neither the mini sweeper nor the enchantment hate is overcosted. Still, I would only have it in the SB if both modes are good.
The key to beating Tron is playing a 2 drop into either Liliana, Fulminator, or another 2 drop and a discard spell. I would look to mulligan hands that can't do one of those things, and I would be careful about keeping hands that are something like discard spell, removal, Fulminator, lands, because in my experience those tend to be traps. The best thing you can do against Tron is to play a Tarmogoyf on turn 2.
Hi guys. It's been a whilr since I joined this discussion. I am just lurking around and reading this one all along. I want to share what I have.
I saw the part of the discussion having 23 land count in the deck. I am actually trying it right now and seems kinda okay. It does not dilute the deck a lot. And does not screw a lot. Part of the adjustment is that I just play 1 4cmc creature mainboard which is Olivia Voldaren. And 2 in the SB which are 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. My list of lands is like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Swamp
1 Forest
I don't have any Fatal Push in my list yet. If I will have a chance, I will have a 3/2 split in favor of Lightning Bolt. I still cannot afford to lose reach. Both sucks at big mana decks but Bolt still has reach when you want to go for the kill. As of the moment, since I am dealing with an unknown field right now I got this removal list:
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Dreadbore
I really want to strip opponent's hand with Thoughtseize. It is more flexible than Inquisition. So, for the discard suite, I came up with:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
My creature list might have been a bit mediocre. Some in the list are self explanatory. Grim Flayers filters out your draws but I think I will try replacing him with 2 Tasigurs because of opposing Fatal Pushes right now. This is what I run right now:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Flayer (2 Tasigur or split with 1 Dark Confidant + 1 Grim Lavamancer)
1 Olivia Voldaren
For sideboard, I want to test the split of 2 Fulminator Mage and 2 Blood Moon for decks that Jund had a hard time. I will not count Blood Moon out. This might be still a good SB card against Valakut and Tron to buy time and finish them of. Instead of Damnation, I brought Anger of the Gods because it can deal with so many creature based decks plus its exile clause. Huntmaster of the Fells for aggro and Burn match-ups. Combines with Collective Brutality, which you can also use in spell-based combo or tempo decks. Charms are for flexibility. So, here it is:
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Blood Moon
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lost Legacy
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
My list might be a little bit slower than the usual Jund Midrange. The reason of the 2 Pulse and a Dreadbore mainboard is because of versatility. I might be replacing the Dreadbore with Terminate/Go for the Throat. I can't give up Abrupt Decay, it is a good answer for Grixis Shadow. Stubborn Denial is a pain. KCommand is a value card most of the time. The current list was actually good upon playtesting against most of the field. The list is a nightmare against creature based decks. And 50/50 or 40/60 against ETron and Shadow variants. Slightly bad against Tron and Ramp decks about 30/70 chance.
Intensive playing skills, critical thinking and luck are key to unleash the deck's potential. We should know the deck by the heart. And everything will fall into place. For me, Jund is actually still in good position in the meta. People does not often play the deck because they might don't want to be fair against the field. Jund wins with a lot of hardwork than other decks. Thoughts and comments are welcome!
This might be wrong but I am thinking about a mainboard random answer to certain nonbasic lands that we might have trouble dealing with. Wanted to have the 3rd Fulminator Mage but will get the creature list clunky. Still on the verge of testing it for more games.
Useful against opposing manlands, utility lands and Tron lands.
If there would be a problem in mana fixing, I might replace the Ghost Quarter with a Bloodstained Mire, Twilight Mire or a basic Forest.
Goblin Rabblemaster was used before as one of the flex slots. Proven good against certain decks. Control decks might force to remove it as sson at it hits the table. Again, it is about preference.
Tron variants are still difficult match-ups. Perhaps we need a new card that might help against them or unban something. And that might push Jund over the top.
Goblin Rabblemaster was used before as one of the flex slots. Proven good against certain decks. Control decks might force to remove it as sson at it hits the table. Again, it is about preference.
Tron variants are still difficult match-ups. Perhaps we need a new card that might help against them or unban something. And that might push Jund over the top.
Blood moon is not very effective in the tron match up, they will just go for 6 lands wurmcoil or 7 lands Karn if you can't close the game quick enough.
I remember Jeremy Dezani and Raphael Levy did well with Blood moon Jund in GP Lille a year ago when Bant Eldrazi was big, finishing 11th and 58th. Ramp, Eldrazi and Tron are huge now, and seeing as regular jund struggles in this meta, I wouldn't be surprised if Blood moon jund is stronger than regular jund now, and I'll definitely give it a shot. Control is also big now, where Blood moon is strong, especially against jeskai. UW Control (and merfolk) have more basics and can spreading seas your basics, though, so that could get ugly...
Dezani's list for reference, not sure how it would look today (post fatal push):
With this list I'm having no issues, all matchups are winnable. (And of course, I can loose vs all)
Lost Legacy help extracting collected/chords or another bullets depends on the matchups.
Huntmaster, kitchen, brutality gains life and also make discard and put some blockers/pressure on board.
Anger clean board and also can be used with blood moon/Fulminator to make a kind of red prison deck.
Rakdos clean graveyard and also can destroy artifact so is good vs a lot of matchups.
Also remember that Ronhas and Hazoret can block anything because they are indestructible. And with jund strategies we are topdecking a lot to make Hazoret a nightmare. In fact in a lot of matchups I have two cards in hands, discard one after he declare attacking creatures and block.
Just my opinion, but you don't have anywhere near enough creatures to warrant including a Rhonas. I've run lists in Standard with more creatures than this list, and often my Rhonas just sits on the board doing nothing because the other creatures have been removed.
Believe me, when bant eldrazi was popular i played a lot with blood moons and while it is fantastic vs bant eldrazi, you would often screw your opponent and yourself simultanously or even screw yourself more than your opponent. It does look good in theory but often you are just sitting there with something like a blood moon, a blooming marsh, an overgrown tomb and a fetchland, which either forces you to fetch for a red source to even cast bm (screwing yourself massively) or not casting bm at all, effectively mulliganing to 6 due to this. You need more than 3 basics to support blood moon. And then again, we are a 3 colour deck. I even had ppl playing bm against me, it can be a devastating card to deal with. If you play bm in jund, you absolutely need to face decks which fear bm as a silverbullet, and all those decks present in the meta are not such decks. Bant eldrazi was the only deck for me to play bm.
The thing is, in theory all sounds safe and sound, fetch for basics, then drop bm. But just keep attention while playing how big the variance this would be and you will see. How many situations are there where bm would screw the opponent more than you and how many vise versa? I bet its about even counted all together. And thats way too risky for my taste. The only thing that could matter is the surprise factor, which would not work long. All in all i can say from my experience, been there, done that, but its not worthy at all.
In a world where BBE was legal, do you guys think players would elect to play Grim Flayer instead of Bob in order to trigger better cascades, or would that be too cute to enable what most likely would probably be a 3 of in the deck?
I think that BBE would push the deck in a direction to just try to relentlessly get 2-for-1s and raw card advantage. That's at least where I'd look to start testing, my starting creature base would be 4 Goyf/ 4 Confidant/ 2 Ooze/ 4 BBE. That being said, it's possible that BBE provides enough raw card advantage that setting up your draws with Flayer becomes more desirable, but I don't think I'd want to depend on Flayer connecting in a build not running Baubles, and I think those would be poor to run alongside BBE.
Looking at Legacy Jund lists, they actually seem pretty split on Flayer vs Confidant.
I have such a love/hate relationship with the 3 weeeks before a B&R announcement when I spend time working on BBE lists. It's always exciting, and (thus far) always disappointing.
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Charms all have the same problem: They provide some flexibility, but in specific cases, they are just underwhelming and overcosted for what they do. I wouldn't touch Rakdos or Jund Charm due to this. Golgari Charm is the only little exception here, since neither the mini sweeper nor the enchantment hate is overcosted. Still, I would only have it in the SB if both modes are good.
For what?
Basically for everything except Burn, Tron variants and Titanshift.
I saw the part of the discussion having 23 land count in the deck. I am actually trying it right now and seems kinda okay. It does not dilute the deck a lot. And does not screw a lot. Part of the adjustment is that I just play 1 4cmc creature mainboard which is Olivia Voldaren. And 2 in the SB which are 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. My list of lands is like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Raging Ravine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Swamp
1 Forest
I don't have any Fatal Push in my list yet. If I will have a chance, I will have a 3/2 split in favor of Lightning Bolt. I still cannot afford to lose reach. Both sucks at big mana decks but Bolt still has reach when you want to go for the kill. As of the moment, since I am dealing with an unknown field right now I got this removal list:
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Dreadbore
I really want to strip opponent's hand with Thoughtseize. It is more flexible than Inquisition. So, for the discard suite, I came up with:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
My creature list might have been a bit mediocre. Some in the list are self explanatory. Grim Flayers filters out your draws but I think I will try replacing him with 2 Tasigurs because of opposing Fatal Pushes right now. This is what I run right now:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Flayer (2 Tasigur or split with 1 Dark Confidant + 1 Grim Lavamancer)
1 Olivia Voldaren
For sideboard, I want to test the split of 2 Fulminator Mage and 2 Blood Moon for decks that Jund had a hard time. I will not count Blood Moon out. This might be still a good SB card against Valakut and Tron to buy time and finish them of. Instead of Damnation, I brought Anger of the Gods because it can deal with so many creature based decks plus its exile clause. Huntmaster of the Fells for aggro and Burn match-ups. Combines with Collective Brutality, which you can also use in spell-based combo or tempo decks. Charms are for flexibility. So, here it is:
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Blood Moon
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lost Legacy
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
My list might be a little bit slower than the usual Jund Midrange. The reason of the 2 Pulse and a Dreadbore mainboard is because of versatility. I might be replacing the Dreadbore with Terminate/Go for the Throat. I can't give up Abrupt Decay, it is a good answer for Grixis Shadow. Stubborn Denial is a pain. KCommand is a value card most of the time. The current list was actually good upon playtesting against most of the field. The list is a nightmare against creature based decks. And 50/50 or 40/60 against ETron and Shadow variants. Slightly bad against Tron and Ramp decks about 30/70 chance.
Intensive playing skills, critical thinking and luck are key to unleash the deck's potential. We should know the deck by the heart. And everything will fall into place. For me, Jund is actually still in good position in the meta. People does not often play the deck because they might don't want to be fair against the field. Jund wins with a lot of hardwork than other decks. Thoughts and comments are welcome!
Useful against opposing manlands, utility lands and Tron lands.
If there would be a problem in mana fixing, I might replace the Ghost Quarter with a Bloodstained Mire, Twilight Mire or a basic Forest.
He's felt good in nearly every matchup except Eldrazi Tron, but then again we hate Tron to begin with.
Tron variants are still difficult match-ups. Perhaps we need a new card that might help against them or unban something. And that might push Jund over the top.
Tron variants are still difficult match-ups. Perhaps we need a new card that might help against them or unban something. And that might push Jund over the top.
If you then build your deck around bm, it does feel like a diluted mix of jund and red prison decks. You will loose to other matchups consequently.
Dezani's list for reference, not sure how it would look today (post fatal push):
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dreadbore
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Terminate
4 Blood Moon
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Spellskite
1 Thragtusk
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Damnation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Shatterstorm
1 Rakdos Charm
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Just my opinion, but you don't have anywhere near enough creatures to warrant including a Rhonas. I've run lists in Standard with more creatures than this list, and often my Rhonas just sits on the board doing nothing because the other creatures have been removed.
The thing is, in theory all sounds safe and sound, fetch for basics, then drop bm. But just keep attention while playing how big the variance this would be and you will see. How many situations are there where bm would screw the opponent more than you and how many vise versa? I bet its about even counted all together. And thats way too risky for my taste. The only thing that could matter is the surprise factor, which would not work long. All in all i can say from my experience, been there, done that, but its not worthy at all.
Looking at Legacy Jund lists, they actually seem pretty split on Flayer vs Confidant.
I have such a love/hate relationship with the 3 weeeks before a B&R announcement when I spend time working on BBE lists. It's always exciting, and (thus far) always disappointing.