How do we sideboard against Grixis Delver? I kinda felt that I wanted to leave discard in to steal their counters/snapcasters/kommands, but did not really feel like siding any creature removal or threats out because they can build quite a pressure with delvers, young pyros and tasigur.
Trying to figure out what to do with my sideboard. The list Reid plays is my starting point. I find myself in doubt about the Fulminator mages. I just do not like them. They are a 1 for 1, but against deck that overcome that quit easyly. So why not cut the from the board? Or play Blood Moon instead?
Thoughts about a full playset of Leyline of the Void in board? Seems really important against Grixis, Dredge, Living End etc. Reid had a 2 of in his side alongside 2 cages, but I'm thinking we're decent against Coco decks in the first place. Plus 4 means we're more likely to draw it in our starting hand, which kinda is the whole point of the card in the first place.
Needless to say, I'm more inclined towards 4 than 0 in the board.
I'm currently running 3. I think 2 is not enough for good enough opening hand odds, and 4 is too high in running the risk of drawing multiples. In testing, I absolutely love the card so far.
I have tried out several different gravehate cards in the sb (Cage, Spellbomb, Surgical), none of them have entirely convinced me so far. The main problem I always had with Leyline was that you really want her in your opening hand, but by playing 3 you should open the game with her quite often without drawing her a second/third time on a regular basis. I will definitely try her out as a 3-off and will give you guys some feedback after my next few tournaments.
I think the best alrounder for GY hate is Nihil Spellbomb. Its also good in attrition based Matchups if needed, since it replaces itself. I like this card more than the other ones, it's become a pet card for me over time.
Grixis Death's Shadow deck fills the GY so ridiculously fast that I dare to say that it could be a viable deck even without the Death's Shadow.
Grixis player dropping a turn 2 Gurmag Angler makes me wanna cry with Fatal Push or Lightning bolt in hand.
There are many top tier decks currently where the Leyline of the Void damages the game plan a lot: Grixis DS, Dredge, Living End, Storm. Maybe also the Traverse builds?
I will also try next event with 3-4 Leylines in the sideboard.
EDIT: Just got a turn 0 scoop from Grixis DS opponent after putting Leyline of the Void onto table in G2.
I play 3 Leylines, 1 Cage SB and 3 MB Ooze. It's good enough against GY decks. I like that Spellbomb replaces itself but it can be sometimes easy to play around it and recover in no time.
I personally think boarding cards like Leyline in vs. Grixis DS is not a good idea. Same goes for Traverse decks. The thing is, its an attrition based matchup after all, and you don't want to have dead draws late in the game. Gurmag Angler on turn 2 is one thing, but I think its not the biggest problem we potentially have against Grixis DS. Its the same like Grixis Control, their endgame in the form of Snapcaster, KCommand and Tasigur is so strong, that you want as much lategame power as possible. Now of course Leyline can shut this down, but you just risk having those dead draws against them. It might be just the way I think about these matchups though.
So for the Matchups mentioned:
Grixis DS: If you want GY hate I think Spellbomb is best here (argument: attrition)
Dredge: Leyline is of course best here.
Living End: Is also best potentially.
Storm: Leyline seems good but Storm is a good matchup anyway I think. It would be no primary reason to run Leyline in my opinion.
Traverse: No Leyline for me, they are all attrition based matchups.
I mean you can try Leyline and see how it goes, I just personally don't like cards which can be either super great or very bad (when drawn later in the game) unless I really have to play them (like in the Dredge era for example). For me, the only real reason to run Leyline would be a big presence of Dredge/Living End or Grishoalbrand for obvious reasons.
I could get behind your points on Leyline against Grixis Shadow, but I'm going to have to disagree. To me, the strength of shutting their graveyard off from turn 0 is obvious, but sometimes I actually don't mind drawing a later Leyline.
Leyline at turn >3 means we still weaken Snapcaster and Tasigur. Maybe not as much as the opening hand play, but decently enough it could make the difference in the match. Most likely your opponent will have dredged a lot of or all of their graveyard by turn 4 to play a big threat. Lili on the board followed by a Leyline is actually a pretty strong line of play against the deck.
I would for sure bring in attrition/long game tools before you bring in Leyline in this matchup, but if you still have cards to cut I absolutely recommend sliding in some Leylines. Overally though I chaulk it up to personal preference and how you want to attack the matchup. I like to try to foil my opponent's ability to play the game (Early turn Leyline can ruin some dredge based hands) as opposed to outresource them in this matchup.
Hi mates,
I'm an italian Jund player for a very short time. Against the ban of my favourite deck, Miracle, I decided to choose Jund in Modern and Legacy. (Sorry for my bad english)
Last friday I arrived 20th at the Main Event Modern on Ovino Tournament in Milan. This was my first tournament in my life with Jund.
My list was:
My choices in sideboard are so funny.
Cypt Incursion: I don't like the choice of 2x Leyline of the Void, because I would put 3x in my sideboard, but this one occupies too much space in the sideboard. So, I decided to split Surgical, Jund Charm, Grafdigger's Cage and Crypt Incursion. I believe that this is a WIN CONDITION against dredge and living end. In a lot of tests, I won a lot of games with this card. But in this tournament I didn't find any 'graveyard decks'.
Krosan Grip: I expected many decks with Leyline of the Void/Leyline of Sanctity, so I put KGrip instead of Ancient Grudge, in addition to his Split Second ability. For example against Walking Ballist, or Ad Nauseam's Lotus, or Batterskull, or Leylines.
Jund Charm: his flexibility is the reason why I decided to put it in the 75. Graveyard hate, the second 'wrath of god' and, in addition, +2+2 against another Tarmogoyf onto the battlefield.
Chandra, Pyromaster: the split between the new and the old was very difficult for me. Torch of Defiance is a fantastic planeswalker, but in the tournament it never satisfied me. Side out in every game. On the other hand, Pyromaster was the MVP in some grind matchups, for example 4c Shadow, against Lingering Souls and against some other Matchups where this one can shine. In my 75, I'll choice the old Chandra. But in the main, I decide to put the 3th Kolaghan's Command instead of the new Chandra.
23 LANDS: I hate all matches where I draw too many lands. So, I decided to reduce the casting cost in order to have all spells in hand. With my list, 4-5 are enough. The others need only for Raging. In all of games I made, I've never had the need to have more lands.
THE TOURNAMENT:
- TURN 1: JUND 1-2 (0-1)
.GAME 1: Dark Confidant and Raging Ravine brought home the game.
.GAME 2: Fulminator, Fulminator, Kolaghan's Command for Fulminator. Lost.
.GAME 3: My initial hand was: 2 Fulminator Mage, 1 new Chandra, 1 old Chandra, 3 Lands. My next 9 draws were 8 lands and no Raging -.-. I've lost with 2 Tarmogoyf onto the battlefield.
- TURN 2: UWR DELVER 2-1 (1-1)
.GAME 1: I lost a won match. My opponent was at topdeck, drew Bedlam Reveler for 2 Path to Exile and Delver of Secrets. I've lost my 2 Tarmogoyfs and dead by Delver and Bedlam.
.GAME 2: All inquisition+thoughtseize, Raging Ravine and Dark Confidant brought home the game.
.GAME 3: A similar game as game 2. Ooze was a 6/6 and my Raging was a 5/5.
- TURN 3: BANT RETREAT 2-0 (2-1)
In GAME 1 I've seen discard spells and all removals I've in my main. In GAME 2 Krosan Grip saved me his combo and Dark Confidant + Raging Ravine + Chandra Pyromaster brought home the game.
-TURN 4: GW TRON 2-1 (3-1)
.GAME 1: Dark Confidant and Raging Ravine onto the battlefield and on the other part Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Razorverge Tichket and an Oblivion Stone. Inquisition of Kozilek and I see Ugin in his hand. I had Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. So, I decided to put Ooze in order to receive a -2 by Ugin. In the next Turn, -2 of Ugin and I played Bolt on Ugin (it had 2 loyalty). In my turn Kolaghan's Command to destroy Oblivion Stone and Ugin. In the next turn he drew Karn and I lost the game 1.
.GAME 2: Fulminator, Kolaghan, Fulminator. GG.
.GAME 3: Fulminator and 2 Thoughtseize. The Ultimate of Liliana brought home the game.
-TURN 5: AFFINITY 0-2 (3-2)
.GAME 1: I began. Land, Inquisition and he had 2 Mox Opal, 2 Lands, 1 Drum, 1 Pest, 1 Cranial. Out Cranial. He drew 2 Etched Champion and 1 Cranial. I lost the game 1.
.GAME 2: He played: Cranial Plating in the first turn, Etched Champion, another Champion and an Arcbound Ravager. I think that every deck can lost with this hand.
-TURN 6: GRIXIS SHADOW 2-0 (4-2)
.GAME 1 and GAME 2 were similar, because with his discard spells I had more removals. Liliana and Dark Confidant brought home the game. In the GAME 2 Kitchen Finks and Engineered Explosives the stars.
-TURN 7: RG TRON 2-0 (5-2)
.GAME 1 and GAME 2 were similar because his deck looked dead. Turn 1 discard spells and a Goyf brought home the game. Turn 2 the ultimate of Liliana.
-TURN 8: 4C SHADOW 2-1 (6-2)
.GAME 1: he was very strong to not show me the white splash and I believed he played Jund Shadow. I won the game with Raging + Confidant.
.GAME 2: I've lost a won match. In the topdeck he played 2 Lingering Souls. I had only Chandra Pyromaster and Maelstrom Pulse, because I didn't know the white splash.
.GAME 3: Chandra Pyromaster was the star in this game. In addition, my opponent cycled Wraith with his 5 life points, he made the mistake to lose the game.
So, I finished 6-2 after my first tournament with Jund. The penality to lose the first match.......no TOP16.
But I'm very happy with this list, even if now I try to cut the new Chandra in order to the 3th Kolaghan's Command (in the tournament it was never a dead card in hand). In addiiton, I don't want to add the 24th Land =) =) =).
What to u think about this list? Have u ever tried a similar decklist?
Goodbye Mates and sorry for my bad english!
I could get behind your points on Leyline against Grixis Shadow, but I'm going to have to disagree. To me, the strength of shutting their graveyard off from turn 0 is obvious, but sometimes I actually don't mind drawing a later Leyline.
Leyline at turn >3 means we still weaken Snapcaster and Tasigur. Maybe not as much as the opening hand play, but decently enough it could make the difference in the match. Most likely your opponent will have dredged a lot of or all of their graveyard by turn 4 to play a big threat. Lili on the board followed by a Leyline is actually a pretty strong line of play against the deck.
I would for sure bring in attrition/long game tools before you bring in Leyline in this matchup, but if you still have cards to cut I absolutely recommend sliding in some Leylines. Overally though I chaulk it up to personal preference and how you want to attack the matchup. I like to try to foil my opponent's ability to play the game (Early turn Leyline can ruin some dredge based hands) as opposed to outresource them in this matchup.
Yeah it seems we have different ways how to handle the matchups, and I think this is fine. It surely comes down to preference, since both strategies have up and downsides. It matters which you value more. In my experience, a Leyline being hardcast always just did nothing important for me so that it wasn't worth the 4 mana (and often meaning time walking the opponent). Thats why I think I much more rather sideboard without this card for the matchup and just Junding them out the usual way.
For graveyard hate Leyline is hands down best in slot for black / colorless options. If white is available Rest in Peace becomes BiS, but this is jund so yeah Leyline.
So, they are nowadays using mainphasemtg tier system, instead of their own(?).
Anyways, those tier systems are based on deck popularity and tournament success. Naturally, if majority of Jund midrange players are playing DS Jund nowadays, Jund midrange's popularity and success will go down. So, dropping to "developing competitive" does not necessarily mean that the deck is not competetive, it is just not played us much.
I guess we are developing competitive now since there is simply no tier 3 forum. its just the next step below tier 2 in this forum structure. But we know its tier 3
im shocked to find jund sitting here in tier 3. kinda hurts the feels. Never owned a jund deck been a burn player for years but always had the most respect and love for jund. Perhaps it shall return to tier 1 in time.
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Do any Delver decks still play Young Pyromancer?
Needless to say, I'm more inclined towards 4 than 0 in the board.
Grixis player dropping a turn 2 Gurmag Angler makes me wanna cry with Fatal Push or Lightning bolt in hand.
There are many top tier decks currently where the Leyline of the Void damages the game plan a lot: Grixis DS, Dredge, Living End, Storm. Maybe also the Traverse builds?
I will also try next event with 3-4 Leylines in the sideboard.
EDIT: Just got a turn 0 scoop from Grixis DS opponent after putting Leyline of the Void onto table in G2.
So for the Matchups mentioned:
Grixis DS: If you want GY hate I think Spellbomb is best here (argument: attrition)
Dredge: Leyline is of course best here.
Living End: Is also best potentially.
Storm: Leyline seems good but Storm is a good matchup anyway I think. It would be no primary reason to run Leyline in my opinion.
Traverse: No Leyline for me, they are all attrition based matchups.
I mean you can try Leyline and see how it goes, I just personally don't like cards which can be either super great or very bad (when drawn later in the game) unless I really have to play them (like in the Dredge era for example). For me, the only real reason to run Leyline would be a big presence of Dredge/Living End or Grishoalbrand for obvious reasons.
Leyline at turn >3 means we still weaken Snapcaster and Tasigur. Maybe not as much as the opening hand play, but decently enough it could make the difference in the match. Most likely your opponent will have dredged a lot of or all of their graveyard by turn 4 to play a big threat. Lili on the board followed by a Leyline is actually a pretty strong line of play against the deck.
I would for sure bring in attrition/long game tools before you bring in Leyline in this matchup, but if you still have cards to cut I absolutely recommend sliding in some Leylines. Overally though I chaulk it up to personal preference and how you want to attack the matchup. I like to try to foil my opponent's ability to play the game (Early turn Leyline can ruin some dredge based hands) as opposed to outresource them in this matchup.
I'm an italian Jund player for a very short time. Against the ban of my favourite deck, Miracle, I decided to choose Jund in Modern and Legacy. (Sorry for my bad english)
Last friday I arrived 20th at the Main Event Modern on Ovino Tournament in Milan. This was my first tournament in my life with Jund.
My list was:
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Krosan Grip
1 Collective Brutality
1 Jund Charm
My choices in sideboard are so funny.
Cypt Incursion: I don't like the choice of 2x Leyline of the Void, because I would put 3x in my sideboard, but this one occupies too much space in the sideboard. So, I decided to split Surgical, Jund Charm, Grafdigger's Cage and Crypt Incursion. I believe that this is a WIN CONDITION against dredge and living end. In a lot of tests, I won a lot of games with this card. But in this tournament I didn't find any 'graveyard decks'.
Krosan Grip: I expected many decks with Leyline of the Void/Leyline of Sanctity, so I put KGrip instead of Ancient Grudge, in addition to his Split Second ability. For example against Walking Ballist, or Ad Nauseam's Lotus, or Batterskull, or Leylines.
Jund Charm: his flexibility is the reason why I decided to put it in the 75. Graveyard hate, the second 'wrath of god' and, in addition, +2+2 against another Tarmogoyf onto the battlefield.
Chandra, Pyromaster: the split between the new and the old was very difficult for me. Torch of Defiance is a fantastic planeswalker, but in the tournament it never satisfied me. Side out in every game. On the other hand, Pyromaster was the MVP in some grind matchups, for example 4c Shadow, against Lingering Souls and against some other Matchups where this one can shine. In my 75, I'll choice the old Chandra. But in the main, I decide to put the 3th Kolaghan's Command instead of the new Chandra.
23 LANDS: I hate all matches where I draw too many lands. So, I decided to reduce the casting cost in order to have all spells in hand. With my list, 4-5 are enough. The others need only for Raging. In all of games I made, I've never had the need to have more lands.
THE TOURNAMENT:
- TURN 1: JUND 1-2 (0-1)
.GAME 1: Dark Confidant and Raging Ravine brought home the game.
.GAME 2: Fulminator, Fulminator, Kolaghan's Command for Fulminator. Lost.
.GAME 3: My initial hand was: 2 Fulminator Mage, 1 new Chandra, 1 old Chandra, 3 Lands. My next 9 draws were 8 lands and no Raging -.-. I've lost with 2 Tarmogoyf onto the battlefield.
- TURN 2: UWR DELVER 2-1 (1-1)
.GAME 1: I lost a won match. My opponent was at topdeck, drew Bedlam Reveler for 2 Path to Exile and Delver of Secrets. I've lost my 2 Tarmogoyfs and dead by Delver and Bedlam.
.GAME 2: All inquisition+thoughtseize, Raging Ravine and Dark Confidant brought home the game.
.GAME 3: A similar game as game 2. Ooze was a 6/6 and my Raging was a 5/5.
- TURN 3: BANT RETREAT 2-0 (2-1)
In GAME 1 I've seen discard spells and all removals I've in my main. In GAME 2 Krosan Grip saved me his combo and Dark Confidant + Raging Ravine + Chandra Pyromaster brought home the game.
-TURN 4: GW TRON 2-1 (3-1)
.GAME 1: Dark Confidant and Raging Ravine onto the battlefield and on the other part Urza's Mine, Urza's Power Plant, Razorverge Tichket and an Oblivion Stone. Inquisition of Kozilek and I see Ugin in his hand. I had Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. So, I decided to put Ooze in order to receive a -2 by Ugin. In the next Turn, -2 of Ugin and I played Bolt on Ugin (it had 2 loyalty). In my turn Kolaghan's Command to destroy Oblivion Stone and Ugin. In the next turn he drew Karn and I lost the game 1.
.GAME 2: Fulminator, Kolaghan, Fulminator. GG.
.GAME 3: Fulminator and 2 Thoughtseize. The Ultimate of Liliana brought home the game.
-TURN 5: AFFINITY 0-2 (3-2)
.GAME 1: I began. Land, Inquisition and he had 2 Mox Opal, 2 Lands, 1 Drum, 1 Pest, 1 Cranial. Out Cranial. He drew 2 Etched Champion and 1 Cranial. I lost the game 1.
.GAME 2: He played: Cranial Plating in the first turn, Etched Champion, another Champion and an Arcbound Ravager. I think that every deck can lost with this hand.
-TURN 6: GRIXIS SHADOW 2-0 (4-2)
.GAME 1 and GAME 2 were similar, because with his discard spells I had more removals. Liliana and Dark Confidant brought home the game. In the GAME 2 Kitchen Finks and Engineered Explosives the stars.
-TURN 7: RG TRON 2-0 (5-2)
.GAME 1 and GAME 2 were similar because his deck looked dead. Turn 1 discard spells and a Goyf brought home the game. Turn 2 the ultimate of Liliana.
-TURN 8: 4C SHADOW 2-1 (6-2)
.GAME 1: he was very strong to not show me the white splash and I believed he played Jund Shadow. I won the game with Raging + Confidant.
.GAME 2: I've lost a won match. In the topdeck he played 2 Lingering Souls. I had only Chandra Pyromaster and Maelstrom Pulse, because I didn't know the white splash.
.GAME 3: Chandra Pyromaster was the star in this game. In addition, my opponent cycled Wraith with his 5 life points, he made the mistake to lose the game.
So, I finished 6-2 after my first tournament with Jund. The penality to lose the first match.......no TOP16.
But I'm very happy with this list, even if now I try to cut the new Chandra in order to the 3th Kolaghan's Command (in the tournament it was never a dead card in hand). In addiiton, I don't want to add the 24th Land =) =) =).
What to u think about this list? Have u ever tried a similar decklist?
Goodbye Mates and sorry for my bad english!
PS: in the next tournment I'll try these list:
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Krosan Grip
1 Collective Brutality
1 Jund Charm
Yeah it seems we have different ways how to handle the matchups, and I think this is fine. It surely comes down to preference, since both strategies have up and downsides. It matters which you value more. In my experience, a Leyline being hardcast always just did nothing important for me so that it wasn't worth the 4 mana (and often meaning time walking the opponent). Thats why I think I much more rather sideboard without this card for the matchup and just Junding them out the usual way.
So, they are nowadays using mainphasemtg tier system, instead of their own(?).
Anyways, those tier systems are based on deck popularity and tournament success. Naturally, if majority of Jund midrange players are playing DS Jund nowadays, Jund midrange's popularity and success will go down. So, dropping to "developing competitive" does not necessarily mean that the deck is not competetive, it is just not played us much.