The Drowners were cut from the traditional list for 3 Oblivion Sower and 1 World Breaker basically. The mana base also was able to fit in a 2nd Ghost Quarter and obviously a more consistent mana base. Drowner has helped close out a lot of games or just make the opponent concede, so it is tough to cut him out. He can easily shut down combat, and combined with Displacer leads to an insurmountable board state. It may be worth testing, but for basically 3 Oblivion Sower and no good ways to use all that mana, I don't think it's as good as the Bant lists today.
Batterskull I've considered - the only issue is it cannot be accelerated out (non-Eldrazi) and is in the 5 drop slot with Reality Smasher. Maybe as a 1-of while trimming a single Drowner. Similarly, Wurmcoil fits in this situation as well - except with no way to accelerate it out it is a 6 drop. I think these cards lacking the acceleration will be too slow for the deck to come in when they should matter. They seem better as sideboard cards in this deck since we really are an aggressive midrange deck that wants to close out the game quick (and even then, bringing in a 5 drop or 6 drop for lifelink is not what we want against fast aggro decks). We don't have that many ways to delay the game against fast decks, unlike typical decks that run Batterskull and Wurmcoil in the 75 (and again, we aren't playing Tron here so we don't have the reliable acceleration to play them ahead of curve). Batterskull or Wurmcoil are in some control deck sideboards in grindier matchups which is where they excel. Our deck already is favored vs almost all control decks though, so I don't see it as a good card in a sideboard slot.
Ratchet Bomb other than budget reasons should always be Engineered Explosives. Being able to play EE for 1 or 2 and immediately detonate that turn is extremely powerful. For instance, vs Merfolk, which is a bad matchup, we really want to hit 2 CMC creatures. Ratchet Bomb is too slow for this and requires us to play it early letting our opponent know not to play into the inevitable sweeper on 2. Otherwise say we're at T4 vs Merfolk, we can easily hit a couple lords and a random 2-drop Merfolk with EE on 2. In the main either card is too narrow - totally worthless vs a wide variety of decks (EE on 2 to kill a Snapcaster?).
Revoker is okay, but Spellskite has wider and often more powerful applications. Revoker blindly on T2 in the main is awkward. A Spellskite on 2 in the blind is fine as your opponent has to either waste a removal spell there or allow our Eldrazi to have "Pay U/2 life, become Hexproof" basically. T2 Spellskite into T3 TKS is terrific for instance, as it often avoids the opponent killing TKS in response with its only removal spell at the time.
Anyways, in general, I do not believe the best 60 has been found for this deck. There may also be better color combinations for a higher overall win percentage. Keep testing with what you feel would work - put some thought and planning into it, and then grind out many games against many decks with it to see if the changes were better or not.
Thanks for the detailed reply, I've recently taken interest in this and trying to see if I can add something to it while maintaining it's raw power.
What I really like about Endbringer (besides a simpler manabase without Blue) is the flexibility/utility and the additional draw option which can be very good later in the game.
What is the opinion on him as a 3-4x at the top of the curve ?
About Batterskul and Wurmcoil Engine, with 6 mana-dorks I think that it's not entirely unreasonable to cast them 1 (sometimes 2) turn ahead of curve, isn't it ?
They can't probably be a 4x-of but as a 1x-of they seem like solid inclusions.
This brings me to the next question.
Why aren't artifacts like Talisman of Unity or Mind Stone (in a more colorless-heavy build) considered for the deck over Birds of Paradise ?
They can be found by Ancient Stirrings and harder to remove (and help produce colorless under Blood Moon).
Birds and hierarch are better than talisman and mind stone because with mana artifact you can't cast TKS on turn 2. This is the most important reason why dork are prefered to mana artifact
What about 2 rest in peace main, and 2 blight herders?
add 3 more tokens that the drowner could use to tap down creatures,
and with thoughtknot, and path to exile you are already making them exile enough usually
I have celestial purge in my sideboard because it's too good not to.
Deals with otherwise problem permanents (Blood moon, Nahiri, Liliana), also a straight 2 mana removal spell for tasigur, angler, burn creatures. Thanks to the exile clause also fully deals with dredge creatures.
I'm always boarding it in against GBx, UWR, Burn, Zoo, Grixis Delver/Control, UR Delver, Dredge, Suicide Zoo, any deck that I see moon g1/2 and probably others that are slipping my mind now.
What about 2 rest in peace main, and 2 blight herders?
add 3 more tokens that the drowner could use to tap down creatures,
and with thoughtknot, and path to exile you are already making them exile enough usually
I have celestial purge in my sideboard because it's too good not to.
Deals with otherwise problem permanents (Blood moon, Nahiri, Liliana), also a straight 2 mana removal spell for tasigur, angler, burn creatures. Thanks to the exile clause also fully deals with dredge creatures.
I'm always boarding it in against GBx, UWR, Burn, Zoo, Grixis Delver/Control, UR Delver, Dredge, Suicide Zoo, any deck that I see moon g1/2 and probably others that are slipping my mind now.
Wouldn't Beast Within be better as a more flexiable option ?
What about 2 rest in peace main, and 2 blight herders?
add 3 more tokens that the drowner could use to tap down creatures,
and with thoughtknot, and path to exile you are already making them exile enough usually
I've played BW Eldrazi Processors a lot pre-ban and tested out newer versions post-eye-ban and there often were consistency issues with getting enough processor fuel for them. I typically cut the processing version down to 3 Strangler, 1-2 Herder, and 3 Relic to mitigate that somewhat. Again, more discussion of that at the link above.
Thanks for the detailed reply, I've recently taken interest in this and trying to see if I can add something to while maintaining it's raw power.
What I really like about Endbringer (besides a simpler manabase without Blue) is the flexibility/utility and the additional draw option which can be very good later in the game.
What is the opinion on him as a 3-4x at the top of the curve ?
About Batterskul and Wurmcoil Engine, with 6 mana-dorks I think that it's not entirely unreasonable to cast them 1 (sometimes 2) turn ahead of curve, isn't it ?
They can't probably be a 4x-of but as a 1x-of they seem like solid inclusions.
This brings me to the next question.
Why aren't artifacts like Talisman of Unity or Mind Stone (in a more colorless-heavy build) considered for the deck over Birds of Paradise ?
They can be found by Ancient Stirrings and harder to remove (and help produce colorless under Blood Moon).
This gives us more painlands that can be turned into cards as games drag on and we start to flood out. The bad sides are obvious, 1 less fetchable land, 1 less colorless source, no Ghost Quarter to interact with opponent lands when needed, we are going to deal more incidental damage to ourselves, this makes our already bad aggro matches worse, we're still playing 24 lands so there's a good chance the card we draw is just another land anyway.
I can't think of a better solution than this and this also begs the question of if 4 windswept heath is correct. Maybe we should be dropping that down to 3 and adding something else instead?
I will give this a whirl and report back with results on Friday.
After playing TarmoDrazi for a while, in my search for the best Eldrazi build, i came to the conclusion that, as many others have said, the flooding problem cannot be deal with.
What i mean with this? I mean that you cant play less than say 23 lands, and although the deck is certainly mana hungry, you will face 8 lands in play without anything to do very often.
While i think Bant Eldrazi is a very good deck, it can be improved, so my initial take is to either trim down on colors, or go up on cantrips.
Oath of Nissa is VERY good, its less than Ancient Stirrings in Eldrazi builds, but powerful enough.
Also our lack of answers make us very soft to decks that need to be interacted heavily with, such as Infect and Affinity.
The first thing i would try is to cut the mana dorks, and try Explosives MB, or some wrath effects; maybe Sunlance?.
Secondly i would try to jam Oath of Nissa for better consistency. Our Plan A CAN´T be double Eldrazi Temple into TKS, because that is not a realistic plan.
Yes, our best draws involve Turn 2 TKS off Temple and a Mana Dork, but this happens rarely, so we need to get more midrangey, we sacrifice explosiveness, but we get consistency. I personally prefer consistency, and much rare explosiveness.
Before i ask you to share this thoughts with me, and give you opinion on my post, i will tell you something that is very difficult to take as a Bant player, including the fact that this card made UW Eldrazi the best deck in Modern History; Eldrazi Displacer is just too cute IN THIS DECK.
It dies to Bolt, it is slow(not very slow, but a little too slow for the format). Blinking creatures and Drowner just doesnt make up for this facts.
I know i know, we all have won many games through Displacer shenanigans, but i think ultimately, it makes the deck slower.
Before going down on this, just try to remember how many times did you lose to Affinity with Displacer and say TKS in the battlefield, where blinking the Plating guy wasnt enough?. Think about that for example..
After playing TarmoDrazi for a while, in my search for the best Eldrazi build, i came to
how many times did you lose to Affinity with Displacer and say TKS in the battlefield
Literally 2 weeks ago, I won a match 2-1 vs Affinity thnx to Worship + the Displacer Drowner combo twice in a row.
I agree that Displacer isn't great in this deck, but he works fine as a 3-of. He's a body that DEMANDS a bolt/path/whatever or he just makes the rest of the game a giant pain for the opponent.
As far as the land/dork conversation, I'm not against cutting the BoP, but Noble is great, not just for her mana producing abilities, the +1/+1 while attacking is deceptively relevant when you throw down a 5/5 haste trample, it completely tilts trades and makes otherwise relevant blockers no longer relevant. I have won multiple games due to the exalted trigger, I think she's a great part of the deck in general at this point.
I didn't take the best notes and I may have mixed up which rounds I certain matches. Hopefully it is still helpful.
Round 1: Protean Hulk Combo (Footsteps of the Goryo)
I've seen this deck in action before but I don't believe I've ever played again it. This was not the way I wanted to start the day because I was hoping to play against fair decks and dodge combo matchups. As expected, he crushes me game 1. I bring in Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle (for Viscera Seer), Stubborn Denial, and Thalia. Game two I have Cage out so he starts trying to beat me down through the air with reveilark. He misplays and should have copied my Reality Smasher with Body Double. Because of this, I get to attack him for lethal with my eldrazi monsters. In game three I have Grafdigger's cage again and also play a Thalia to disrupt him. The Thalia does work and slows him down a lot. I keep beating him down for a while and he has one more turn to go off. I can't remember the logistics of it, but he somehow deals with my cage and goes for the combo. I have a path to disrupt it and I win the match.
2-1 (Overall 1-0)
Round 2: G/B Infect
My opponent tells me that he chose G/B infect because he thought it would be better against Jeskai Nahiri (because of Phyrexian Crusader). This version of infect is strictly worse against me and is too slow. I don't remember many of the logistics of the matchup but I do remember that he had big problems getting through my Matter Reshapers and flickering effects with Displacer. I win game one and bring in Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle (for Inkmoth), Dismember, Stubborn Denial, and potentially Thalia. The combination of path, dismember, and pressure is too much for him and I take game 2.
2-0 (Overall 2-0)
Round 3: Nahiri Control
I don't have any notes about this match. Most of my deck is good against him and I cruise through this one. I do remember that I brought in pithing needle and named Nahiri with it game 2 and he had two in hand at the end of the match.
2-0 (Overall 3-0)
Round 4: Jund
Another matchup that I was wanting to face this weekend. The guy is from Puerto Rico and said he flew in just to play in the tournament. As with the match above, I don't have many notes. I do remember that in game two he had a Liliana with five counters and an empty board and I top deck Reality Smasher to take it down. Reshaper and Drowner really shine in this matchup. He gets one of the games but I get the other two.
2-1 (Overall 4-0)
Round 5: Abzan company
I cannot remember this round at all. I have in my notes that he had an Archangel of Thune in his hand from seeing it with Thought-Knot so he must have been playing the spike feeder combo. I'll have more insight into this matchup later but I just can't remember anything about this round.
2-0 (Overall 5-0)
Round 6: N/A
I looked through my notes and I'm not sure what I played. I'm thinking it was Jund but I'm not sure. Sorry guys. I do know that I win the match.
?-? (Overall 6-0)
Round 7: Infect
This time I get to play real deal infect and, what appears to be, a good infect player. He said he traveled from St. Louis with a bunch of friends. I'm pretty sure he is the infect player who gets 18th place (Tom Koson). He gets game one with a very good hand. Games 2 and 3 I bring in EE, needle (inkmoth), dismember, stubborn denial, and thalia. Game two Thalia disrupts him enough to get the beats in while keeping his threats at bay. I remember game three getting to the midgame by keeping his inkmonths back with pithing needle. As the game continues, Displacer takes over the game and he is never able to attack again with his creatures.
2-1 (Overall 7-0)
Round 8: Infect (Andrew Jessup)
At this point I am feeling really good about how I was performing. I get called to the feature match area to play Andrew Jessup (who finished 2nd in the tournament). I hear from other people before the match that he is on infect. There is not much to say about this match. He has excellent hands both games and stomps me. My friend told me he saw his opening 7 in game one and said it was unbeatable. In game 2, I have thalia out, but he has the perfect combination of cards to with through it.
0-2 (Overall 7-1)
Round 9: Bushwacker Zoo
This deck can be very explosive and difficult for me to stabilize against. He has a very aggressive hand in game one and stomps me. I am able to stabilize in game two (it also helps that he was mana screwed). Game three was very close. On the next turn I would be able to attack for lethal but he top decks the surge guy and that, combined with a boros charm, is enough to kill me.
1-2 (Overall 7-2)
I ended day 1 at 7-2. It was somewhat disappointing considering that I started 7-0, but I am happy to be making day two.
Round 10: Ad Nauseam
I play against Zac Elsik piloting Ad Nauseam. He crushes me game one as I don't have any disruption and my clock was too slow. I bring in Pithing Needle (lightning storm), Stony Silence, Natural State, Stubborn Denial, and Thalia. Unfortunately I mulligan to 5 in game two but I have a turn 2 Thalia. When I cast it he looked at his hand and said that Thalia was insane against him. Unfortunately, because I had to mulligan, I don't have much pressure to back it up and give him plenty of time to assemble his combo pieces. At the end of the game, I had three Cavern of souls, three eldrazi temples, thalia, and a displacer in play (one of the caverns named human for thalia). In hand I have Stony Silence, Natural State, and Ancient Stirrings. He kills me the turn before I find colored mana.
0-2 (Overall 7-3)
Round 11: Abzan Company
Game one he combos off and I don't have a fast enough clock or enough paths to stop it. I bring in EE, Grafdigger's, Pithing Needle (viscera seer), and dismember. Games 2 and 3 come down to me having grafdigger's cage and him not being able to answer it in time. I was also able to disrupt him at the right times with path. He told me after the match that he brought in 6 or so cards just to deal with grafdigger's but he just couldn't find them in time.
2-1 (Overall 8-3)
Round 12: Bant Eldrazi
Game one he is on the play and has a faster draw than me. Games 2 and 3 I bring in Thragtusk, World Breaker, and Dismember. It may have been a mistake, but I also chose to take out my Spellskites. The rationale was that I wanted to be the one playing the threats and not the answers. He decided to keep his in. In game two, he has an early though-knot and sees my hand looking something like this: thragtusk, world breaker, reshaper, reality smahser, and thought-knot. He looks at it, laughs, and says "don't think I'm winning this one." Game three was very close. On the life pad I had 1 life to his 6 at the end of the game. It came down to drawing more threats and being able to flicker his reality smasher with a displacer.
2-1 (Overall 9-3)
Round 13: Abzan Company
I get to play Abzan Company for the third time. I was feeling ok about the matchup at this point since I had beaten it twice already. He combos me both games pretty quickly and I am unable to find cage in game 2.
0-2 (Overall 9-4)
Round 14: Merfolk
This was a difficult matchup. He was not only playing spreading sea's main, but also three or four copies of Sea's Claim. This was problematic because he had the potential to cut me off from colorless mana. He steamrolls me game one, especially because his creatures were unblockable. I bring in EE, needle (vial or mutavault depending on situation), and natural state. I don't remember much about game two other than that I won because I was able to dismember a master of waves at a key moment. Game three he was on the play and leads with an aether vial. I lead with a needle naming vial. He kept a land light hand and played three creatures the whole game. I cast a turn 2 thought-knot (off two temples) and a turn three smasher. He cannot recover.
2-1 (Overall 10-4)
Round 15: Affinity
At this point I was feeling the pressure because if I won this match I would make top 32. When he begins the game by playing lots of artifacts I sigh and realize I'm probably not getting game one. He kills me with inkmoth before I can get anything going. Games two and three I bring in needle (various targets), stony silence, dismember, and natural state. Game two I start out with a noble. He turn one thoughtseizes me and takes my stony silence; however, he has a pretty fair hand and the game starts to drag on. Displacer slowly started taking over the game and he eventually had to start chump blocking my spaghetti monsters. Game three I had to mulligan to five so I'm not feeling good about my chances. He leads on a glimmervoid and a vault skirge and passes the turn. I fetch and cast natural state on his vault skirge and then his glimmervoid is sacrificed end of turn. He plays another artifact and then I slam stony silence (I can picture Thalia throwing her hand in the air in triumph at this point). A couple of turns later I cast a reality smasher and the game is over.
2-1 (Overall 11-4)
I finished in 28th place and it feels nice to know that people are seeing my name and list in the top 32 section on the SCG website. Overall, I really liked the deck. It somewhat feels like Jund in the fact that it is a pile of good cards but it gets to go bigger than the midrange decks of the format and can play the long game very well with displacer and drowner. The infect matchup feels slightly unfavored but is winnable with early removal and displacer. In general, I would play this deck if you want to be favorable against the fair decks of the format (jund, grixis, jeskai, etc.) but still want to have game against the unfair decks. If you play this deck, you will lose most of your game 1 matches against combo decks; however, the sideboard should help you out and hopefully you can drop turn two thought-knots to take key elements from their hands. When picking things to take out, here is a general rule of thumb: against combo, side out most if not all drowners, paths (depending on the combo), and potentially shave ancient stirrings and/or reshaper. Against infect, shave on one or two drowner (card is good but really slow), reshaper, and stirrings. I also found myself taking out spellskites when I was firmly in the beatdown role.
As a funny side note, I named "snake" three times with cavern of souls during the tournament just to try to tilt my opponent. When I named it, either they were not playing counter magic or I already had two caverns in play.
I hadn't been paying attention to how relevant Pithing Needle was in the current meta, adding one to my SB immediately after reading your write-up. Thanks~
Also, since I've been advocating for Thalia lately, which 2 drop did you like more? Thalia or Spellskite?
Greetings all! Long time lurker, I love this thread.
I recently gathered everything for Bant Eldrazi after briefly playing the BW Eldrazi and Taxes deck. Really I just wanted an excuse to play DJ-TK and the SmashMan. Going to be playing at my local FNM this week, which is mostly fair decks with a handful of combo decks and fast decks (Jund, Jeskai Control, Affinity, Merfolk, and Burn are expected). This thread has been really useful in helping me figure out what the deck should look like before I adjust it for my meta.
I do have a couple questions though:
1. Burn seems like it could be a pretty abysmal match-up for us, and I frequently see 3+ players playing it at my LGS. Should I board additional lifegain like Timely Reinforcements along with my planned Thragtusk? How about Leyline of Sanctity? More counterspells maybe?
2. I really enjoyed Judge Sewall's write up, and his board looks solid. I do have some concerns about running Natural State over Nature's Claim. Is the lifegain that much of a downside when we're playing big fatties like Smasher and Drowner? Has the targeting restriction ever really mattered? Or is World Breaker such a good catch-all that the restriction doesn't matter?
Thanks for taking the time to read! May the spaghetti be ever in your favor.
Also, since I've been advocating for Thalia lately, which 2 drop did you like more? Thalia or Spellskite?
For this particular tournament I liked Thalia better. Spellskite wasn't as relevant simply because I did not draw it the times I really needed to (especially against infect). I still like having Spellskite in the main because infect is a top deck and you can find it off of a turn one stirrings.
Greetings all! Long time lurker, I love this thread.
I recently gathered everything for Bant Eldrazi after briefly playing the BW Eldrazi and Taxes deck. Really I just wanted an excuse to play DJ-TK and the SmashMan. Going to be playing at my local FNM this week, which is mostly fair decks with a handful of combo decks and fast decks (Jund, Jeskai Control, Affinity, Merfolk, and Burn are expected). This thread has been really useful in helping me figure out what the deck should look like before I adjust it for my meta.
I do have a couple questions though:
1. Burn seems like it could be a pretty abysmal match-up for us, and I frequently see 3+ players playing it at my LGS. Should I board additional lifegain like Timely Reinforcements along with my planned Thragtusk? How about Leyline of Sanctity? More counterspells maybe?
2. I really enjoyed Judge Sewall's write up, and his board looks solid. I do have some concerns about running Natural State over Nature's Claim. Is the lifegain that much of a downside when we're playing big fatties like Smasher and Drowner? Has the targeting restriction ever really mattered? Or is World Breaker such a good catch-all that the restriction doesn't matter?
Thanks for taking the time to read! May the spaghetti be ever in your favor.
I'm glad you enjoyed the write up. The rationale, at least to me, for Natural State over Nature's Claim is that you end up being the beatdown deck more than you might think and not being able to kill them one turn because of the lifegain could be huge. You also have to ask yourself, what artifact/enchantment would you be wanting to destroy in modern right now that isn't CMC 3 or less? Maybe some local players are playing something you are concerned with.
I like having Timely Reinforcements over Leyline against burn. If you have a heavy burn meta, I would definitely find room for two timely in the side. You can also play it on turn two with a bird/noble. Hope that helps!
And maybe even dropping Blue completely to load up on more utility colorless lands:
Gavony Township, Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, Sea Gate Wreckage, Westvale Abbey
(maybe even Inkmoth Nexus or Tomb of the Spirit Dragon/Mirrorpool).
Also what about Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine at the top of the curve (over Drowner) ?
Or maybe some Oblivion Sower or Ulamog's Despoiler ?
Would Ratchet Bomb be a good inclusion as additional removal in the flex slots ?
Can Phyrexian Revoker be good enough in the MD as a Spellskite alternative ?
Another idea is to cut the 6-drops, 2-drops and some lands to add Eldrazi Mimics and Endless Ones for a more aggro approach, can it work ?
http://www.magicfriends.net/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=3309
The Drowners were cut from the traditional list for 3 Oblivion Sower and 1 World Breaker basically. The mana base also was able to fit in a 2nd Ghost Quarter and obviously a more consistent mana base. Drowner has helped close out a lot of games or just make the opponent concede, so it is tough to cut him out. He can easily shut down combat, and combined with Displacer leads to an insurmountable board state. It may be worth testing, but for basically 3 Oblivion Sower and no good ways to use all that mana, I don't think it's as good as the Bant lists today.
Batterskull I've considered - the only issue is it cannot be accelerated out (non-Eldrazi) and is in the 5 drop slot with Reality Smasher. Maybe as a 1-of while trimming a single Drowner. Similarly, Wurmcoil fits in this situation as well - except with no way to accelerate it out it is a 6 drop. I think these cards lacking the acceleration will be too slow for the deck to come in when they should matter. They seem better as sideboard cards in this deck since we really are an aggressive midrange deck that wants to close out the game quick (and even then, bringing in a 5 drop or 6 drop for lifelink is not what we want against fast aggro decks). We don't have that many ways to delay the game against fast decks, unlike typical decks that run Batterskull and Wurmcoil in the 75 (and again, we aren't playing Tron here so we don't have the reliable acceleration to play them ahead of curve). Batterskull or Wurmcoil are in some control deck sideboards in grindier matchups which is where they excel. Our deck already is favored vs almost all control decks though, so I don't see it as a good card in a sideboard slot.
Ratchet Bomb other than budget reasons should always be Engineered Explosives. Being able to play EE for 1 or 2 and immediately detonate that turn is extremely powerful. For instance, vs Merfolk, which is a bad matchup, we really want to hit 2 CMC creatures. Ratchet Bomb is too slow for this and requires us to play it early letting our opponent know not to play into the inevitable sweeper on 2. Otherwise say we're at T4 vs Merfolk, we can easily hit a couple lords and a random 2-drop Merfolk with EE on 2. In the main either card is too narrow - totally worthless vs a wide variety of decks (EE on 2 to kill a Snapcaster?).
Revoker is okay, but Spellskite has wider and often more powerful applications. Revoker blindly on T2 in the main is awkward. A Spellskite on 2 in the blind is fine as your opponent has to either waste a removal spell there or allow our Eldrazi to have "Pay U/2 life, become Hexproof" basically. T2 Spellskite into T3 TKS is terrific for instance, as it often avoids the opponent killing TKS in response with its only removal spell at the time.
Anyways, in general, I do not believe the best 60 has been found for this deck. There may also be better color combinations for a higher overall win percentage. Keep testing with what you feel would work - put some thought and planning into it, and then grind out many games against many decks with it to see if the changes were better or not.
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
What I really like about Endbringer (besides a simpler manabase without Blue) is the flexibility/utility and the additional draw option which can be very good later in the game.
What is the opinion on him as a 3-4x at the top of the curve ?
About Batterskul and Wurmcoil Engine, with 6 mana-dorks I think that it's not entirely unreasonable to cast them 1 (sometimes 2) turn ahead of curve, isn't it ?
They can't probably be a 4x-of but as a 1x-of they seem like solid inclusions.
Another idea is to play 4x MD World Breakers.
Is cutting the 2x Spellskite for 2x more Birds of Paradise
or maybe replacing both for 4x Talisman of Unity enough of ramp support for the big eldrazi ?
This brings me to the next question.
Why aren't artifacts like Talisman of Unity or Mind Stone (in a more colorless-heavy build) considered for the deck over Birds of Paradise ?
They can be found by Ancient Stirrings and harder to remove (and help produce colorless under Blood Moon).
I wonder if Vile Redeemer can be playable in this deck, is "flash" relevant enough here ?
What about 2x Duskwatch Recruiter in the flex slots for card-draw/cost-reduction ?
As far as SB cards go, how are:
Dromoka's Command, Celestial Purge and Beast Within for this deck ?
Should more removal like Spatial Contortion/Dismember/Declaration in Stone be in the SB ?
Here is my idea for a G/W version:
4x Brushland
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
1x Plains
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Gavony Township
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Eldrazi Mimic
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
3x Endbringer
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (4)
4x Ancient Stirrings
How is the manabase ? Enough green and white sources ?
Would 1x Stirring Wildwood be a good addition ?
How is Grove of the Guardian as spell-land for this deck ?
(worth playing over Gavony Township/Sea Gate Wreckage ? )
add 3 more tokens that the drowner could use to tap down creatures,
and with thoughtknot, and path to exile you are already making them exile enough usually
I have celestial purge in my sideboard because it's too good not to.
Deals with otherwise problem permanents (Blood moon, Nahiri, Liliana), also a straight 2 mana removal spell for tasigur, angler, burn creatures. Thanks to the exile clause also fully deals with dredge creatures.
I'm always boarding it in against GBx, UWR, Burn, Zoo, Grixis Delver/Control, UR Delver, Dredge, Suicide Zoo, any deck that I see moon g1/2 and probably others that are slipping my mind now.
What would you take out for them ? (Birds of Paradise and Spellskite ?)
Why not Relic of Progenitus over Rest in Peace ? It's cheaper, cycles and doesn't hurt our Matter Reshaper.
It will be closer to the proccesors list.
Wouldn't Beast Within be better as a more flexiable option ?
You should look back into the BW Eldrazi Processor builds - discussion here:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/651723-bw-eldrazi-processor?page=63
I've played BW Eldrazi Processors a lot pre-ban and tested out newer versions post-eye-ban and there often were consistency issues with getting enough processor fuel for them. I typically cut the processing version down to 3 Strangler, 1-2 Herder, and 3 Relic to mitigate that somewhat. Again, more discussion of that at the link above.
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
Very true. And discussion of that deck here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/688629-rg-eldrazi?page=5
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
3x Brushland
2x Yavimaya Coast
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Wastes
4x Windswept Heath
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
3x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Eldrazi Skyspawner
3x Matter Reshaper
4x Drowner of Hope
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Sorcery (4)
4x Ancient Stirrings
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Leonin Arbiter
2x Stony Silence
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Worship
-1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Temple Garden, +2 Horizon Canopy.
This gives us more painlands that can be turned into cards as games drag on and we start to flood out. The bad sides are obvious, 1 less fetchable land, 1 less colorless source, no Ghost Quarter to interact with opponent lands when needed, we are going to deal more incidental damage to ourselves, this makes our already bad aggro matches worse, we're still playing 24 lands so there's a good chance the card we draw is just another land anyway.
I can't think of a better solution than this and this also begs the question of if 4 windswept heath is correct. Maybe we should be dropping that down to 3 and adding something else instead?
I will give this a whirl and report back with results on Friday.
What i mean with this? I mean that you cant play less than say 23 lands, and although the deck is certainly mana hungry, you will face 8 lands in play without anything to do very often.
While i think Bant Eldrazi is a very good deck, it can be improved, so my initial take is to either trim down on colors, or go up on cantrips.
Oath of Nissa is VERY good, its less than Ancient Stirrings in Eldrazi builds, but powerful enough.
Also our lack of answers make us very soft to decks that need to be interacted heavily with, such as Infect and Affinity.
The first thing i would try is to cut the mana dorks, and try Explosives MB, or some wrath effects; maybe Sunlance?.
Secondly i would try to jam Oath of Nissa for better consistency. Our Plan A CAN´T be double Eldrazi Temple into TKS, because that is not a realistic plan.
Yes, our best draws involve Turn 2 TKS off Temple and a Mana Dork, but this happens rarely, so we need to get more midrangey, we sacrifice explosiveness, but we get consistency. I personally prefer consistency, and much rare explosiveness.
Before i ask you to share this thoughts with me, and give you opinion on my post, i will tell you something that is very difficult to take as a Bant player, including the fact that this card made UW Eldrazi the best deck in Modern History; Eldrazi Displacer is just too cute IN THIS DECK.
It dies to Bolt, it is slow(not very slow, but a little too slow for the format). Blinking creatures and Drowner just doesnt make up for this facts.
I know i know, we all have won many games through Displacer shenanigans, but i think ultimately, it makes the deck slower.
Before going down on this, just try to remember how many times did you lose to Affinity with Displacer and say TKS in the battlefield, where blinking the Plating guy wasnt enough?. Think about that for example..
Literally 2 weeks ago, I won a match 2-1 vs Affinity thnx to Worship + the Displacer Drowner combo twice in a row.
I agree that Displacer isn't great in this deck, but he works fine as a 3-of. He's a body that DEMANDS a bolt/path/whatever or he just makes the rest of the game a giant pain for the opponent.
As far as the land/dork conversation, I'm not against cutting the BoP, but Noble is great, not just for her mana producing abilities, the +1/+1 while attacking is deceptively relevant when you throw down a 5/5 haste trample, it completely tilts trades and makes otherwise relevant blockers no longer relevant. I have won multiple games due to the exalted trigger, I think she's a great part of the deck in general at this point.
Leading up to the tournament I had been testing Bant Eldrazi at my LGS and had been relatively successful with the list. Based on testing and needing something early to disrupt combo decks, I added 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to the board. Here is the deck I registered for the tournament: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104425
For ease, here is the decklist:
2 Spellskite
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Drowner of Hope
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Eldrazi Skyspawner
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Lands (24)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
3 Brushland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Path to Exile
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thragtusk
1 World Breaker
2 Stony Silence
2 Dismember
1 Natural State
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I didn't take the best notes and I may have mixed up which rounds I certain matches. Hopefully it is still helpful.
Round 1: Protean Hulk Combo (Footsteps of the Goryo)
I've seen this deck in action before but I don't believe I've ever played again it. This was not the way I wanted to start the day because I was hoping to play against fair decks and dodge combo matchups. As expected, he crushes me game 1. I bring in Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle (for Viscera Seer), Stubborn Denial, and Thalia. Game two I have Cage out so he starts trying to beat me down through the air with reveilark. He misplays and should have copied my Reality Smasher with Body Double. Because of this, I get to attack him for lethal with my eldrazi monsters. In game three I have Grafdigger's cage again and also play a Thalia to disrupt him. The Thalia does work and slows him down a lot. I keep beating him down for a while and he has one more turn to go off. I can't remember the logistics of it, but he somehow deals with my cage and goes for the combo. I have a path to disrupt it and I win the match.
2-1 (Overall 1-0)
Round 2: G/B Infect
My opponent tells me that he chose G/B infect because he thought it would be better against Jeskai Nahiri (because of Phyrexian Crusader). This version of infect is strictly worse against me and is too slow. I don't remember many of the logistics of the matchup but I do remember that he had big problems getting through my Matter Reshapers and flickering effects with Displacer. I win game one and bring in Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle (for Inkmoth), Dismember, Stubborn Denial, and potentially Thalia. The combination of path, dismember, and pressure is too much for him and I take game 2.
2-0 (Overall 2-0)
Round 3: Nahiri Control
I don't have any notes about this match. Most of my deck is good against him and I cruise through this one. I do remember that I brought in pithing needle and named Nahiri with it game 2 and he had two in hand at the end of the match.
2-0 (Overall 3-0)
Round 4: Jund
Another matchup that I was wanting to face this weekend. The guy is from Puerto Rico and said he flew in just to play in the tournament. As with the match above, I don't have many notes. I do remember that in game two he had a Liliana with five counters and an empty board and I top deck Reality Smasher to take it down. Reshaper and Drowner really shine in this matchup. He gets one of the games but I get the other two.
2-1 (Overall 4-0)
Round 5: Abzan company
I cannot remember this round at all. I have in my notes that he had an Archangel of Thune in his hand from seeing it with Thought-Knot so he must have been playing the spike feeder combo. I'll have more insight into this matchup later but I just can't remember anything about this round.
2-0 (Overall 5-0)
Round 6: N/A
I looked through my notes and I'm not sure what I played. I'm thinking it was Jund but I'm not sure. Sorry guys. I do know that I win the match.
?-? (Overall 6-0)
Round 7: Infect
This time I get to play real deal infect and, what appears to be, a good infect player. He said he traveled from St. Louis with a bunch of friends. I'm pretty sure he is the infect player who gets 18th place (Tom Koson). He gets game one with a very good hand. Games 2 and 3 I bring in EE, needle (inkmoth), dismember, stubborn denial, and thalia. Game two Thalia disrupts him enough to get the beats in while keeping his threats at bay. I remember game three getting to the midgame by keeping his inkmonths back with pithing needle. As the game continues, Displacer takes over the game and he is never able to attack again with his creatures.
2-1 (Overall 7-0)
Round 8: Infect (Andrew Jessup)
At this point I am feeling really good about how I was performing. I get called to the feature match area to play Andrew Jessup (who finished 2nd in the tournament). I hear from other people before the match that he is on infect. There is not much to say about this match. He has excellent hands both games and stomps me. My friend told me he saw his opening 7 in game one and said it was unbeatable. In game 2, I have thalia out, but he has the perfect combination of cards to with through it.
0-2 (Overall 7-1)
Round 9: Bushwacker Zoo
This deck can be very explosive and difficult for me to stabilize against. He has a very aggressive hand in game one and stomps me. I am able to stabilize in game two (it also helps that he was mana screwed). Game three was very close. On the next turn I would be able to attack for lethal but he top decks the surge guy and that, combined with a boros charm, is enough to kill me.
1-2 (Overall 7-2)
I ended day 1 at 7-2. It was somewhat disappointing considering that I started 7-0, but I am happy to be making day two.
Round 10: Ad Nauseam
I play against Zac Elsik piloting Ad Nauseam. He crushes me game one as I don't have any disruption and my clock was too slow. I bring in Pithing Needle (lightning storm), Stony Silence, Natural State, Stubborn Denial, and Thalia. Unfortunately I mulligan to 5 in game two but I have a turn 2 Thalia. When I cast it he looked at his hand and said that Thalia was insane against him. Unfortunately, because I had to mulligan, I don't have much pressure to back it up and give him plenty of time to assemble his combo pieces. At the end of the game, I had three Cavern of souls, three eldrazi temples, thalia, and a displacer in play (one of the caverns named human for thalia). In hand I have Stony Silence, Natural State, and Ancient Stirrings. He kills me the turn before I find colored mana.
0-2 (Overall 7-3)
Round 11: Abzan Company
Game one he combos off and I don't have a fast enough clock or enough paths to stop it. I bring in EE, Grafdigger's, Pithing Needle (viscera seer), and dismember. Games 2 and 3 come down to me having grafdigger's cage and him not being able to answer it in time. I was also able to disrupt him at the right times with path. He told me after the match that he brought in 6 or so cards just to deal with grafdigger's but he just couldn't find them in time.
2-1 (Overall 8-3)
Round 12: Bant Eldrazi
Game one he is on the play and has a faster draw than me. Games 2 and 3 I bring in Thragtusk, World Breaker, and Dismember. It may have been a mistake, but I also chose to take out my Spellskites. The rationale was that I wanted to be the one playing the threats and not the answers. He decided to keep his in. In game two, he has an early though-knot and sees my hand looking something like this: thragtusk, world breaker, reshaper, reality smahser, and thought-knot. He looks at it, laughs, and says "don't think I'm winning this one." Game three was very close. On the life pad I had 1 life to his 6 at the end of the game. It came down to drawing more threats and being able to flicker his reality smasher with a displacer.
2-1 (Overall 9-3)
Round 13: Abzan Company
I get to play Abzan Company for the third time. I was feeling ok about the matchup at this point since I had beaten it twice already. He combos me both games pretty quickly and I am unable to find cage in game 2.
0-2 (Overall 9-4)
Round 14: Merfolk
This was a difficult matchup. He was not only playing spreading sea's main, but also three or four copies of Sea's Claim. This was problematic because he had the potential to cut me off from colorless mana. He steamrolls me game one, especially because his creatures were unblockable. I bring in EE, needle (vial or mutavault depending on situation), and natural state. I don't remember much about game two other than that I won because I was able to dismember a master of waves at a key moment. Game three he was on the play and leads with an aether vial. I lead with a needle naming vial. He kept a land light hand and played three creatures the whole game. I cast a turn 2 thought-knot (off two temples) and a turn three smasher. He cannot recover.
2-1 (Overall 10-4)
Round 15: Affinity
At this point I was feeling the pressure because if I won this match I would make top 32. When he begins the game by playing lots of artifacts I sigh and realize I'm probably not getting game one. He kills me with inkmoth before I can get anything going. Games two and three I bring in needle (various targets), stony silence, dismember, and natural state. Game two I start out with a noble. He turn one thoughtseizes me and takes my stony silence; however, he has a pretty fair hand and the game starts to drag on. Displacer slowly started taking over the game and he eventually had to start chump blocking my spaghetti monsters. Game three I had to mulligan to five so I'm not feeling good about my chances. He leads on a glimmervoid and a vault skirge and passes the turn. I fetch and cast natural state on his vault skirge and then his glimmervoid is sacrificed end of turn. He plays another artifact and then I slam stony silence (I can picture Thalia throwing her hand in the air in triumph at this point). A couple of turns later I cast a reality smasher and the game is over.
2-1 (Overall 11-4)
I finished in 28th place and it feels nice to know that people are seeing my name and list in the top 32 section on the SCG website. Overall, I really liked the deck. It somewhat feels like Jund in the fact that it is a pile of good cards but it gets to go bigger than the midrange decks of the format and can play the long game very well with displacer and drowner. The infect matchup feels slightly unfavored but is winnable with early removal and displacer. In general, I would play this deck if you want to be favorable against the fair decks of the format (jund, grixis, jeskai, etc.) but still want to have game against the unfair decks. If you play this deck, you will lose most of your game 1 matches against combo decks; however, the sideboard should help you out and hopefully you can drop turn two thought-knots to take key elements from their hands. When picking things to take out, here is a general rule of thumb: against combo, side out most if not all drowners, paths (depending on the combo), and potentially shave ancient stirrings and/or reshaper. Against infect, shave on one or two drowner (card is good but really slow), reshaper, and stirrings. I also found myself taking out spellskites when I was firmly in the beatdown role.
As a funny side note, I named "snake" three times with cavern of souls during the tournament just to try to tilt my opponent. When I named it, either they were not playing counter magic or I already had two caverns in play.
Also, since I've been advocating for Thalia lately, which 2 drop did you like more? Thalia or Spellskite?
I recently gathered everything for Bant Eldrazi after briefly playing the BW Eldrazi and Taxes deck. Really I just wanted an excuse to play DJ-TK and the SmashMan. Going to be playing at my local FNM this week, which is mostly fair decks with a handful of combo decks and fast decks (Jund, Jeskai Control, Affinity, Merfolk, and Burn are expected). This thread has been really useful in helping me figure out what the deck should look like before I adjust it for my meta.
I do have a couple questions though:
1. Burn seems like it could be a pretty abysmal match-up for us, and I frequently see 3+ players playing it at my LGS. Should I board additional lifegain like Timely Reinforcements along with my planned Thragtusk? How about Leyline of Sanctity? More counterspells maybe?
2. I really enjoyed Judge Sewall's write up, and his board looks solid. I do have some concerns about running Natural State over Nature's Claim. Is the lifegain that much of a downside when we're playing big fatties like Smasher and Drowner? Has the targeting restriction ever really mattered? Or is World Breaker such a good catch-all that the restriction doesn't matter?
Thanks for taking the time to read! May the spaghetti be ever in your favor.
For this particular tournament I liked Thalia better. Spellskite wasn't as relevant simply because I did not draw it the times I really needed to (especially against infect). I still like having Spellskite in the main because infect is a top deck and you can find it off of a turn one stirrings.
I'm glad you enjoyed the write up. The rationale, at least to me, for Natural State over Nature's Claim is that you end up being the beatdown deck more than you might think and not being able to kill them one turn because of the lifegain could be huge. You also have to ask yourself, what artifact/enchantment would you be wanting to destroy in modern right now that isn't CMC 3 or less? Maybe some local players are playing something you are concerned with.
I like having Timely Reinforcements over Leyline against burn. If you have a heavy burn meta, I would definitely find room for two timely in the side. You can also play it on turn two with a bird/noble. Hope that helps!