AD NAUSEAM - IMO we are unfavoured. However this (like a lot of matchups) is improved by SB configuration. The more counterspells and cards like SS, Natural State, EE you have the closer it gets to even.
MANA BASE - most lists run 23 lands, 5 dorks - this is probably correct. I prefer 24 lands and 4 dorks - I run GQ and Hallowed Fountain in my 24 land list (2 yavimaya coast). I really dont like talismans (for many reasons that i've stated multiple times) - they originally entered Bant Eldrazi lists in response to the once popular 'Sun and Moon' deck. If Blood Moon concerns you then play Talismans.
ELDER DEEP FIEND - IMO 4x Drowner of Hope and zero EDF is the optimal config of 6 cmc fatties. I tested it months ago and outside of fringe cases Drowner is superior. Furthermore, I do not know of any lists that run EDF that have placed highly in genuinely competitive tournaments.
ELSPETH or Worship - I think Worship is superior to Elspeth in the mirror and outside of the mirror I don't understand the importance of Elspeth.
Skyspawner vs Matter Reshaper - 4x Skyspawner and 1x Resphaper (can be 1x E-Wit) is what I play currently. There is too much Affinity around for me to play less the 4x Skyspawner - also important is the ramp it provides. Side benefits are that it helps against Blood Moon. Matter Reshaper is superior against Burn and arguably GBx (esp traditional Jund) - metadependent call..
You want to land an early TKS and take out their payoff card. Choose the card you can deal with the earliest (e.g. if they have Wurmcoil and Karn and you have a negate in hand, take the Wurmcoil out). Try hitting them as fast as possible; reality smasher is the clock you want. For sideboard bring in hard-counters (if you run disdainful stroke, that should be optimal. If not, negate, denial and u-will can deal with Ugin and Karn). If you're playing against regular tron, bring in stony silence since it shuts down their maps, cantrips and oblivion stone. Tron's biggest weakness is that it needs its cantrips to be mildly consistent, and you should exploit that. If you're playing against Eldrazi Tron, bring in Blessed Alliance as well. For regular tron, I'd cut down on the paths, but not completely, in case you have to deal with Wurmcoil, World Breaker, or god forbid, Ulamog.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UWGBant EldraziUWG Decided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.
I think D.Command is a good spice card for what's going on around in my store's meta. Can be a bit awkward to cast at times.
Also I still can't get behind the Worship train. I also like the 5 dorks and 24 land list. I think it's because I have awful luck when I play haha.
Bant Eldrazi is somewhere between midrange and aggro, leaning more towards midrange. Just because it runs acceleration doesn't mean it's truly ramp - take big zoo as example.
I would say there's a spectrum of aggro to midrange that goes something like this:
Death's Shadow -> Bant Eldrazi -> Jund -> Abzan
...
Has anyone tried Phantasmal image? There was a discussion on phyrexian metamorph earlier, but Phantasmal is 1cmc cheaper. The reason I'd want it is actually as cheap interaction that can trade 1-for-1 against my opponent even if my dork dies, for example against a turn 1 delver or turn 2 goyf. It's reasonable at every stage of the game:
If we're developing our board, we can copy our own dork or opposing dork for more acceleration.
If we're already winning on board, we can copy one of our fatties.
If we're losing, we can copy an opposing creature to hopefully 1-for-1 our opponent.
How effective has Blessed Alliance been for everyone lately? It's a card I bring in often but a card that doesn't really win me the game, however when it' useful I feel like it's merely okay. A few players in my area run Skred Red so I'm hesitant to drop it but for the GP I can see myself cutting this card for MD 3x EE, this would open some slots up for relics and countermagic in the SB.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I think Worship is quite useful in the current meta - its good against Burn, Affinity and mostly the Mirror (with applications in fringe matchups - Merfolk, Bogles come to mind) - I think you need to play 1x minimum.
Phantasmal Image sounds worthy of testing - id be interested to hear how it goes - I might give it a whirl on the weekend..
Blessed Alliance is a bit on the meh side - however with DS Jund and Burn around you have to play 2x IMO..
The Gx Tron matchup IMO is pretty much 50/50 - I cant get behind the idea that we are favoured. Impressive SB cards include - Stubborn Denial (I love hitting scrying or Maps - the best feeling is hitting turn 3 Karn!), SS, Pithing Needle (often you have to do this blind in the absence of an early TKS - if you have it in your opener I often name Map - O stone is also a great choice blind). Basically bring in all counters, natural states. Mulligans are crucial - you need to either get fast TKS or have interaction to mess with them getting tron. Your priority is generally stopping Tron, taking O stone and ruthlessly applying pressure - you dont really care as much about Karn, Ugin or Wurmcoil. The TKS + Displacer lock is super strong..
The Eldrazi Tron matchup is def in our favour. Pithing needle (Map, Ballista or Endbringer) and SS are good against them as is Displacer. I bring in Unified Will, natural State and the cards above. You should be faster and more consistent with ramping out dudes while they dither - sure you will lose to their ridiculous natural tron hands but your avg hands are better then their avg hands..
Did 25 preboard games with Phantasmal against Jund, Delver, and Valakut with 60% winrate (vs 53% baseline). Not big of enough of a sample to really say anything numerically other than it's not abysmal
It's a viable option as a 1-of or 2-of. I can't really say where it really shines as much as it just fills the void of the 2-3 cmc curve. It's definitely better than reshaper against decks that don't care about card advantage or trading e.g. valakut. There were many games where copying a TKS nabbed their second win con, copying a reality smasher helped me outrace, or copying a dork helped me curve out. It feels bad trading it for just a bolt or half a kolaghan's. It's also a little painful since blue mana is pretty inaccessible without cavern and we don't want to waste our cavern naming illusion. I could see putting it in instead of reshaper when I see more combo or less fair decks.
Biggest issue with Phantasmal Image is EE IMHO. EE is almost alwasy best set to 2, because that's the blind spot on our curve while hitting our opposition's best stuff (Goyf, Scooze, Merfolk Lords, etc). If we're copying all the good 2cmc stuff, that can come back to bite us.
Other than that minor non-bo, don't really have an issue with it as a 1-of if there's enough good copy-able stuff in your meta. Prime Time, Goyf and Scooze are all good targets, as are things like Eternal Witness. Not sure if I would play 2 though, because there are also a lot of decks where it's just totally dead, like Merfolk, AdNaus, RUG Scapeshift, or almost totally dead like Grixis Control and Titainshift (only thing worth anything is Prime Time, and he's not great).
Copying our dork/TKS/Smasher on the play is indeed pretty sweet though, especially if it leaves mana up for Counter/Path.
It's interesting that Phyrexian Metamorph was quickly dismissed while Phantasmal Image is being considered more seriously.
I find the upside of costing 1-mana (and 2-life) less not worth the Illusion-drawback.
you're right, maybe I overlooked it. but I don't think the drawback of phantasmal is worth a whole cmc unless you know you're playing against a lot of bolts or non-path interaction. plus metamorph also dies to half a kolaghan.
at least with 2 cmc we have the option of double casting a 3 drop and phantasmal on turn 4, casting it even if our dork dies on turn 2 or without a dork, or casting it while also having mana for path or stirrings.
regardless, the whole point of that kind of flex slot is to replace reshaper, not be a bomb in and of itself.
edit: ah nevermind. I read the rules for copies and you can still get 2 for 1 if your target gets destroyed on an empty board. I think that seals the deal, neither of these are viable options imo.
Guys, completely noob question here, but how do you pilot the BGx match-ups? Common sense tells me they should be favorable, but I do not manage for my life's sake to land a win.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UWGBant EldraziUWG Decided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.
Abzan is actually unfavored. Jund is a lot closer than people think.
The key with Jund is to play intelligently around liliana, both the +1 and edict. Your key cards are reality smasher and drowner. You want to avoid playing smasher on an empty board that will get lili edicted, but at the same time you don't only want smasher or drowner as your last card. The way they usually win is by mana denial into threat. We will almost always stumble a bit from our dork getting killed or inquisitioned, and then postboard fulminator. Those turns (2-6) before we can cast our fatties naturally is when we are most weak. Reshaper and Skyspawner are key to bridge those turns, and path is also super important during those times.
Side out a few displacers and maybe TKS. Good cards against them are RIP, relic, and eternal witness. Elspeth is super slow but singlehandedly wins if it ever resolves.
From my record abzan is like 35-65 and jund 60-40. Path along with push over bolt, plus lingering souls, plus rhino over huntmaster, junk is definitely better against us than jund
AD NAUSEAM - IMO we are unfavoured. However this (like a lot of matchups) is improved by SB configuration. The more counterspells and cards like SS, Natural State, EE you have the closer it gets to even.
MANA BASE - most lists run 23 lands, 5 dorks - this is probably correct. I prefer 24 lands and 4 dorks - I run GQ and Hallowed Fountain in my 24 land list (2 yavimaya coast). I really dont like talismans (for many reasons that i've stated multiple times) - they originally entered Bant Eldrazi lists in response to the once popular 'Sun and Moon' deck. If Blood Moon concerns you then play Talismans.
ELDER DEEP FIEND - IMO 4x Drowner of Hope and zero EDF is the optimal config of 6 cmc fatties. I tested it months ago and outside of fringe cases Drowner is superior. Furthermore, I do not know of any lists that run EDF that have placed highly in genuinely competitive tournaments.
ELSPETH or Worship - I think Worship is superior to Elspeth in the mirror and outside of the mirror I don't understand the importance of Elspeth.
Skyspawner vs Matter Reshaper - 4x Skyspawner and 1x Resphaper (can be 1x E-Wit) is what I play currently. There is too much Affinity around for me to play less the 4x Skyspawner - also important is the ramp it provides. Side benefits are that it helps against Blood Moon. Matter Reshaper is superior against Burn and arguably GBx (esp traditional Jund) - metadependent call..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Also consider gq as a 24th land
Switch to 4 skyspawners
This is the standard list I'm gonna run tonight.
2 Engineered Explosives
//Creature (25)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Drowner of Hope
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Skyspawner
1 Eternal Witness
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
//Instant (5)
1 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Ancient Stirrings
//Land (24)
1 Breeding Pool
3 Brushland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Natural State
2 Negate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Stubborn Denial
I think D.Command is a good spice card for what's going on around in my store's meta. Can be a bit awkward to cast at times.
Also I still can't get behind the Worship train. I also like the 5 dorks and 24 land list. I think it's because I have awful luck when I play haha.
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
Thanks in advance!
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I would say there's a spectrum of aggro to midrange that goes something like this:
Death's Shadow -> Bant Eldrazi -> Jund -> Abzan
...
Has anyone tried Phantasmal image? There was a discussion on phyrexian metamorph earlier, but Phantasmal is 1cmc cheaper. The reason I'd want it is actually as cheap interaction that can trade 1-for-1 against my opponent even if my dork dies, for example against a turn 1 delver or turn 2 goyf. It's reasonable at every stage of the game:
If we're developing our board, we can copy our own dork or opposing dork for more acceleration.
If we're already winning on board, we can copy one of our fatties.
If we're losing, we can copy an opposing creature to hopefully 1-for-1 our opponent.
I'll test it and see.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Phantasmal Image sounds worthy of testing - id be interested to hear how it goes - I might give it a whirl on the weekend..
Blessed Alliance is a bit on the meh side - however with DS Jund and Burn around you have to play 2x IMO..
The Gx Tron matchup IMO is pretty much 50/50 - I cant get behind the idea that we are favoured. Impressive SB cards include - Stubborn Denial (I love hitting scrying or Maps - the best feeling is hitting turn 3 Karn!), SS, Pithing Needle (often you have to do this blind in the absence of an early TKS - if you have it in your opener I often name Map - O stone is also a great choice blind). Basically bring in all counters, natural states. Mulligans are crucial - you need to either get fast TKS or have interaction to mess with them getting tron. Your priority is generally stopping Tron, taking O stone and ruthlessly applying pressure - you dont really care as much about Karn, Ugin or Wurmcoil. The TKS + Displacer lock is super strong..
The Eldrazi Tron matchup is def in our favour. Pithing needle (Map, Ballista or Endbringer) and SS are good against them as is Displacer. I bring in Unified Will, natural State and the cards above. You should be faster and more consistent with ramping out dudes while they dither - sure you will lose to their ridiculous natural tron hands but your avg hands are better then their avg hands..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
It's a viable option as a 1-of or 2-of. I can't really say where it really shines as much as it just fills the void of the 2-3 cmc curve. It's definitely better than reshaper against decks that don't care about card advantage or trading e.g. valakut. There were many games where copying a TKS nabbed their second win con, copying a reality smasher helped me outrace, or copying a dork helped me curve out. It feels bad trading it for just a bolt or half a kolaghan's. It's also a little painful since blue mana is pretty inaccessible without cavern and we don't want to waste our cavern naming illusion. I could see putting it in instead of reshaper when I see more combo or less fair decks.
Other than that minor non-bo, don't really have an issue with it as a 1-of if there's enough good copy-able stuff in your meta. Prime Time, Goyf and Scooze are all good targets, as are things like Eternal Witness. Not sure if I would play 2 though, because there are also a lot of decks where it's just totally dead, like Merfolk, AdNaus, RUG Scapeshift, or almost totally dead like Grixis Control and Titainshift (only thing worth anything is Prime Time, and he's not great).
Copying our dork/TKS/Smasher on the play is indeed pretty sweet though, especially if it leaves mana up for Counter/Path.
I find the upside of costing 1-mana (and 2-life) less not worth the Illusion-drawback.
at least with 2 cmc we have the option of double casting a 3 drop and phantasmal on turn 4, casting it even if our dork dies on turn 2 or without a dork, or casting it while also having mana for path or stirrings.
regardless, the whole point of that kind of flex slot is to replace reshaper, not be a bomb in and of itself.
edit: ah nevermind. I read the rules for copies and you can still get 2 for 1 if your target gets destroyed on an empty board. I think that seals the deal, neither of these are viable options imo.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
The key with Jund is to play intelligently around liliana, both the +1 and edict. Your key cards are reality smasher and drowner. You want to avoid playing smasher on an empty board that will get lili edicted, but at the same time you don't only want smasher or drowner as your last card. The way they usually win is by mana denial into threat. We will almost always stumble a bit from our dork getting killed or inquisitioned, and then postboard fulminator. Those turns (2-6) before we can cast our fatties naturally is when we are most weak. Reshaper and Skyspawner are key to bridge those turns, and path is also super important during those times.
Side out a few displacers and maybe TKS. Good cards against them are RIP, relic, and eternal witness. Elspeth is super slow but singlehandedly wins if it ever resolves.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Been good in my testin
http://www.wizardryfoundry.com
Current Deck: