I have updated a bit the sheet, to evaluate which cards have the best performance across the meta. I try to determine which cards are consistently good in the main, i.e., independently of the MU, and which are not as robust mainboard inclusions. For the SB, I try to determine which are the cards we make more use of, not based on the number we run, but on the MUs they are good against.
These results are list-specific, but you can extract your own conclusions by substituting your list in the spreadsheet.
MOST ROBUST MAINBOARD CARDS:
Lingering souls (surprise), Gideon, Intangible virtue, Start//finish.
LESS ROBUST MAINBOARD CARDS:
Fatal Push, collective brutality, Legions landing, Liliana of the veil. (Well, those are our flex spots, so I guess it makes a lot of sense)
MOST USED SB CARDS:
Wraths, Pithing needle, Extraction
LEAST USED SB CARDS:
Stony Silence, Damping sphere, Rest in Peace, Blessed Alliance
Worst cards in the main are basically our flexspots. It makes sense that they are so, because they are basically meta calls, and will depend on the MU. This means that the core of the deck has been very well established. Kind of surprised to see Start//Finish up there. I knew the card was great, but the math is unexpectedly favourable for the card.
Even if Stony Silence is the card we use the least of our SB. I still think it is correct to use 3 copies, because we need it early in the game, and when it works, it works good. Surprised to see Pithing needle so high. If I were to substitute a card, I might replace a damping sphere for another needle. Still have a couple days to think about this.
However, discarding Pact from their hand is a LOT less efficinet than dealing with it in other ways. First up it's an instant, they can just cast it in respone if they want to. At that point your CB will likely just fizzle.
Killing their enablers is nice, but not necesary. If you spend your early turns on just that, you won't actually bother them that much. They don't need their enablers to combo. Sure, it'll slow them down by a turn or so (it will also slow you down), but getting their first Titan on 3 or on 5 doesn't matter as much vs a slow deck like ours.
Additionally, Sakura-Tribe Scout will usually activate in response to your removal anyway, so they get the land they wanted. With Asuza, the problem is that they drop 3 lands on the turn they play her, after that she's done her job. She'll be nice to have and make them more dangerous, as they can then do bounce shananigans with Radiant Fountain or Bojuka Bog etc. but the actual getting closer to 6 mana part is already done if you plan to remove her at sorcery speed.
If I play CB t2, I am killing the snake (without activation) and taking the pact (they wont have the mana to pay for it). Agreed azusa is a pain in the ass once she lands, but, well... that is life. (Trick here: if they play a bounce land as first azusa-land, you can kill her in response to the trigger of the bounce land. Lands entering the battlefield dont stack, but this effect does. This way you prevent them from playing the 2nd and 3rd extra land. Same is true for radiant fountain and any other land triggering something).
IDK, clearly I dont have your experience with the MU, but still feels like CB could be good.
Well, if they have nothing I can take in hand, at least that means no pact, which is probably what you wanna see (that and no tolaria west). The rest of the cards are slower, and killing the snake clearly makes them slower, allowing us to find some extra interaction.
If I draw it t5 is going to be horrible. But so will IoK, TS (if they get a baloth). That doesnt mean they are bad cards in the MU.
If they play t1 amulet, then we are screwed. But t1 amulet means t2 azusa into pact for titan (or directly titan) if they have 3 bounce lands. So we are screwed anyway I guess... We really wanna dodge that amulet, regardless of CB, or anything else.
What about runed halo? If we name titan? do they have a way to win? Other than rec sage for runed halo and titan after that?
Anyway, I guess my best bet is hope not to play against it. It is a super small portion of the metagame (I am jinxing myself right here)
Agreed on that. Also, after checking the spreadsheet, it seems runed halo is not very well positioned in the current meta.
PS: I have added some scaling based on how good or bad the MU is (last column). High numbers in the main mean that we take a high number of cards out in bad matchups (so basically they are dead game 1). High numbers in the SB mean that we use this card against bad matchups, so I guess they have more impact in the game. I have been quite conservative with win-rates.
Next step is to include the share of the meta that each deck represents.
So, with the new B/G cards spoiled so far, people are thinking Jund and such are on their way back. How would that set us in the meta? Seems like it would be good for us.
So, with the new B/G cards spoiled so far, people are thinking Jund and such are on their way back. How would that set us in the meta? Seems like it would be good for us.
So, with the new B/G cards spoiled so far, people are thinking Jund and such are on their way back. How would that set us in the meta? Seems like it would be good for us.
I'm actually gonna try to splash green again for this. It's just too good of a removal to not at least test. Assassin's trophy can even deal with lands (AKA Tron). This coupled with Abrupt decay and Maelstrom pulse makes for an awesome removal package. There's also Gavony Township which we can run instead of Ghost quarter or field of ruin now that Assassin's trophy is a thing. all of this makes for a very decent card lineup for green.
I'm afraid it's too slow, 5 mana and it doesn't do anything upon casting it. I really love this card, and I want this to be good, but I don't think it's for us.
Guys, back from Stockholm. The GP was really bad in terms of results since I went 1-3 drop (might as well do some tourism). Won against KCI round 1 and then I got gotten by 8rack, elves, and modular. All of them super close matches. The deck didnt feel weak at all. But all the matches were the same: excellent job at disrupting initial turns, and couldnt deploy a menace afterwards, so they could rebuild.
The only thing I would change is the 1-of damping sphere. I am looking at a 3rd wrath effect (ZP could be a good option too) or something else like a mindcensor or similar.
I run the 3 Damping Sphere because Tron is a nightmare match up. I play exclusively online and there are some budget considerations at the moment (I'll get more Thoughtseizes when I next get paid for exmple, probably going 3/2 split with IoK) and I could probably do with some Fatal Pushes (maybe replacing Mana Tithe).
When you get the right draw with this deck everything just feels so good. Tilting Tron players with Mana Tithe, Damping Sphere, and Stony Silence out of the board is just the best. I've also beaten Elves and Storm off the back of Damping Sphere. I think this list is leaning towards the control builds but there's enough token producers to turn up the heat when required. Sorin, Solemn Visitor has been one of my fabourites since KtK Standard and I'm probably always going to run at least 3 of them, the life gain is almost never irrelevant.
Midnight Haunting has been phenomenal, turn 3 holding up removal or 2 evasive tokens into a turn 4 Sorin or Virtue + something is usually a back breaking move, it just provides so much flexibility.
The Mana Tithes are a bit cute, I agree on that point. They'll be the first thing to go when I put a bit more money into the list. Probably going to be a mix of Thoughtseize and Fatal Push.
I've yet to use Slaughter the Strong in a game, and you're probably correct about just swapping it out for a real wrath, the 3 cmc cost attracted me though!
With regards to Midnight Haunting I feel pretty strongly that the flying is more relevant than vigilance, Virtue gives vigilance and the evasion is the best way to get in damage. That said the Finish side of Start // Finish seems like it could be more useful, I'll maybe try out a 3/2 split of the two of them. I feel like at least some number of Midnight Haunting is needed.
With the manabase what would you swap out some shocks for? More basics, a Fetid Heath or two or another vault and the 4th Ghost Quarter?
Thanks for your points! Originally I had much more planeswalkers, in the form of another Gideon and 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad but that was far too many!
I've just had a quick browse on cardhoarder and it turns out Fatal Push is only 0.28 tix, so it's more affordable than I thought. I've added 2 to the MB of my list, I also picked up 2 Shambling Vent. I also added 1 Start // Finish in place of 1 Midnight Haunting, I'll keep everyone updated on how I get along with it. I intend to run my deck through a friendly league or two then step into the Competitive League.
Can anyone offer side boarding strategies? I've got a rough idea of what cards I want IN, but what to remove for specific matchups I'm a little fuzzy on. Super competitive store with current and past Korean national champs. Thanks!
Can anyone offer side boarding strategies? I've got a rough idea of what cards I want IN, but what to remove for specific matchups I'm a little fuzzy on. Super competitive store with current and past Korean national champs. Thanks!
A full play-set of Marsh Flats should be considered mandatory. Isolated Chapel is awful, Caves of Koilos is bad, and four is at least one too many Godless Shrines. I personally feel it's two too many. Two Vaults strikes me as one too many but you don't have any other colorless lands. Still, even if you dump the Chapel, you will have five lands that are either colorless or enter tapped and that is at least one too many for my taste.
The rest is largely a matter of taste except Sorcerous Spyglass seems odd. It's a dead card if it doesn't land in the first few turns. I'd think there were better cards for that slot.
I don't have 400$ sitting around for 4 marsh flats and 4 bitter blossom. So yes, this is a middle ground for mana base considerations. I figured that would be obvious since I'm running gw fetches and none others.
But yeah... Thanks for the thoughts on what you would or wouldn't side out.
Hey everyone, I have been playing BW Smallpox for a little while now and it has transitioned to look a little bit like BW Tokens and I like reading the discussions here to get some ideas for more token cards I could play. Here's the list:
I think Bridge is a great card for tokens if you are going for a more controlling build. It causes issue with my anthems like Sorins but luckily those are optional. Obviously Intangible Virtue doesn't fit with in this deck because of the Bridges. Start // Finish has been very useful as a card that I can discard to Liliana / Smallpox / Collective Brutality. What do you all think of the deck? Any token producers you think I should include? Thanks.
I built the deck by starting with a BW Smallpox shell and I just found that tokens / planeswalkers tended to be the most relevant and synergistic win conditions. It wasn't supposed to be a tokens deck, it just sort of ended up that way through lots of testing and a few iterations of the deck. I've also never played BW Tokens like the usual builds in this thread so I may be off in some of my analysis.
You're right that my deck is much slower than the average Tokens deck. If I'm playing against a combo / tron opponent I can hold my bridges game 1 and side them out so doing things like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -2 isn't a bad thing and can get me there sometimes, but it's no where near as good of a match up as it could be. Tron is the nightmare match up but most combo decks are very manageable.
Storm is pretty easy with Liliana / Collective Brutality. I haven't played against Company but I figure I have enough removal to shut them down and win at my own pace. The combo decks that have given me trouble in the past have been the graveyard combo decks. Bridge + RIP helps here a lot and then I don't need a very fast clock to win the game from there.
Since I'm sacrificing my own lands and I need to play a couple extra I wanted those to be man lands. Also, I get into "top deck mode" pretty often and want to draw as many relevant cards as possible. And since I'm a slower deck I think 4 vents is correct.
I would think that Bridge isn't very good against you since many of your creatures have 1 power. But maybe Bridge decks are too efficient at emptying their hands. I played an Artifact Prison deck the other day and his bridge was not really an issue except for one turn when I cast Anguished Unmaking on it. I'm guessing there was a lot of luck involved, but that's been my only experience with it on the other side of the table.
I've found that my creature match ups are pretty 50/50 and often coming down to the die roll. With all of my removal it's not impossible to keep up but it's not easy either. Specifically Aether Vial decks are an issue because they usually play 2 creatures a turn when I'm usually playing 1 removal spell a turn. I figured Bridge could give me the extra turn or two to catch up and turn the corner in these match ups. And it's really the graveyard decks that I'm most worried about with Bridge.
Ensnaring Bridge decks usually have the means to get hellbent quickly. I use Bridge in the side-board of Affinity and it steals games. Affinity has a few tricks for Bridge and one can often keep a card in hand until the second main phase to allow t\he 1/X's to attack as well.
I'm no sure if the added disruption of Smallpox is actually enough to off-set this. Our combo matchups are already pretty unfavored. By slowing the deck down even more, those will probably become even more proplematic.
The thing with smallpox is that it also gets rid of a land, which can definitely put a dent in some decks. It's also non-targeting removal for those pesky bogles and we'll usually cast it when we have no creature, and sometime discard cards like Lingering souls or Start // Finish. I never tested Smallpox in BW token, but it's always in the back of my mind when I tinker with the deck. If I had a playset of Flagstones of trokair for the dream play, I'd probably give it a try.
(the dream play being: cast Smallpox; sac Flagstone fetching a plain/Godless shrine; discard souls and sacrifice no creature. Basically losing one + half a card while the opponent lose a creature, a land and a card, AKA 3 cards.)
These results are list-specific, but you can extract your own conclusions by substituting your list in the spreadsheet.
MOST ROBUST MAINBOARD CARDS:
Lingering souls (surprise), Gideon, Intangible virtue, Start//finish.
LESS ROBUST MAINBOARD CARDS:
Fatal Push, collective brutality, Legions landing, Liliana of the veil. (Well, those are our flex spots, so I guess it makes a lot of sense)
MOST USED SB CARDS:
Wraths, Pithing needle, Extraction
LEAST USED SB CARDS:
Stony Silence, Damping sphere, Rest in Peace, Blessed Alliance
Worst cards in the main are basically our flexspots. It makes sense that they are so, because they are basically meta calls, and will depend on the MU. This means that the core of the deck has been very well established. Kind of surprised to see Start//Finish up there. I knew the card was great, but the math is unexpectedly favourable for the card.
Even if Stony Silence is the card we use the least of our SB. I still think it is correct to use 3 copies, because we need it early in the game, and when it works, it works good. Surprised to see Pithing needle so high. If I were to substitute a card, I might replace a damping sphere for another needle. Still have a couple days to think about this.
How about you guys? surprised?
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
If I play CB t2, I am killing the snake (without activation) and taking the pact (they wont have the mana to pay for it). Agreed azusa is a pain in the ass once she lands, but, well... that is life. (Trick here: if they play a bounce land as first azusa-land, you can kill her in response to the trigger of the bounce land. Lands entering the battlefield dont stack, but this effect does. This way you prevent them from playing the 2nd and 3rd extra land. Same is true for radiant fountain and any other land triggering something).
IDK, clearly I dont have your experience with the MU, but still feels like CB could be good.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
If I draw it t5 is going to be horrible. But so will IoK, TS (if they get a baloth). That doesnt mean they are bad cards in the MU.
If they play t1 amulet, then we are screwed. But t1 amulet means t2 azusa into pact for titan (or directly titan) if they have 3 bounce lands. So we are screwed anyway I guess... We really wanna dodge that amulet, regardless of CB, or anything else.
What about runed halo? If we name titan? do they have a way to win? Other than rec sage for runed halo and titan after that?
Anyway, I guess my best bet is hope not to play against it. It is a super small portion of the metagame (I am jinxing myself right here)
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
PS: I have added some scaling based on how good or bad the MU is (last column). High numbers in the main mean that we take a high number of cards out in bad matchups (so basically they are dead game 1). High numbers in the SB mean that we use this card against bad matchups, so I guess they have more impact in the game. I have been quite conservative with win-rates.
Next step is to include the share of the meta that each deck represents.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Especially if they cut Maelstrom Pulse for Assassin's Trophy - which I will not be doing.
Pulse is not always main-deck in Jund or Junk but it is frequently a two-of main-deck in Rock.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
The only thing I would change is the 1-of damping sphere. I am looking at a 3rd wrath effect (ZP could be a good option too) or something else like a mindcensor or similar.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
4 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking
3 Mana Tithe (feel's so good catching a turn 3 Karn with one of these...)
Tokens
4 Bitterblossom
4 Midnight Haunting
1 Legion's Landing
4 Lingering Souls
1 Start // Finish
Anthems
4 Intangible Virtue
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Land
4 Marsh Flats
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
2 Sundering Growth
2 Stony Silence
2 Extirpate
3 Damping Sphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Slaughter the Strong
1 Runed Halo
I run the 3 Damping Sphere because Tron is a nightmare match up. I play exclusively online and there are some budget considerations at the moment (I'll get more Thoughtseizes when I next get paid for exmple, probably going 3/2 split with IoK) and I could probably do with some Fatal Pushes (maybe replacing Mana Tithe).
When you get the right draw with this deck everything just feels so good. Tilting Tron players with Mana Tithe, Damping Sphere, and Stony Silence out of the board is just the best. I've also beaten Elves and Storm off the back of Damping Sphere. I think this list is leaning towards the control builds but there's enough token producers to turn up the heat when required. Sorin, Solemn Visitor has been one of my fabourites since KtK Standard and I'm probably always going to run at least 3 of them, the life gain is almost never irrelevant.
Midnight Haunting has been phenomenal, turn 3 holding up removal or 2 evasive tokens into a turn 4 Sorin or Virtue + something is usually a back breaking move, it just provides so much flexibility.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I'm looking for advice!
GW Emeria Titan
WB Tokens
The Mana Tithes are a bit cute, I agree on that point. They'll be the first thing to go when I put a bit more money into the list. Probably going to be a mix of Thoughtseize and Fatal Push.
I've yet to use Slaughter the Strong in a game, and you're probably correct about just swapping it out for a real wrath, the 3 cmc cost attracted me though!
With regards to Midnight Haunting I feel pretty strongly that the flying is more relevant than vigilance, Virtue gives vigilance and the evasion is the best way to get in damage. That said the Finish side of Start // Finish seems like it could be more useful, I'll maybe try out a 3/2 split of the two of them. I feel like at least some number of Midnight Haunting is needed.
With the manabase what would you swap out some shocks for? More basics, a Fetid Heath or two or another vault and the 4th Ghost Quarter?
Thanks for your points! Originally I had much more planeswalkers, in the form of another Gideon and 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad but that was far too many!
GW Emeria Titan
WB Tokens
GW Emeria Titan
WB Tokens
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/token-mid-range/?cb=1537573005
Can anyone offer side boarding strategies? I've got a rough idea of what cards I want IN, but what to remove for specific matchups I'm a little fuzzy on. Super competitive store with current and past Korean national champs. Thanks!
A full play-set of Marsh Flats should be considered mandatory. Isolated Chapel is awful, Caves of Koilos is bad, and four is at least one too many Godless Shrines. I personally feel it's two too many. Two Vaults strikes me as one too many but you don't have any other colorless lands. Still, even if you dump the Chapel, you will have five lands that are either colorless or enter tapped and that is at least one too many for my taste.
The rest is largely a matter of taste except Sorcerous Spyglass seems odd. It's a dead card if it doesn't land in the first few turns. I'd think there were better cards for that slot.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I don't have 400$ sitting around for 4 marsh flats and 4 bitter blossom. So yes, this is a middle ground for mana base considerations. I figured that would be obvious since I'm running gw fetches and none others.
But yeah... Thanks for the thoughts on what you would or wouldn't side out.
2 Fetid Heath
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
1 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Enchantments (3)
3 Bitterblossom
Artifacts (2)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Lingering Souls
Instants (5)
3 Fatal Push
1 Mana Tithe
1 Start // Finish
Planeswalkers (8)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Damnation
I think Bridge is a great card for tokens if you are going for a more controlling build. It causes issue with my anthems like Sorins but luckily those are optional. Obviously Intangible Virtue doesn't fit with in this deck because of the Bridges. Start // Finish has been very useful as a card that I can discard to Liliana / Smallpox / Collective Brutality. What do you all think of the deck? Any token producers you think I should include? Thanks.
You're right that my deck is much slower than the average Tokens deck. If I'm playing against a combo / tron opponent I can hold my bridges game 1 and side them out so doing things like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -2 isn't a bad thing and can get me there sometimes, but it's no where near as good of a match up as it could be. Tron is the nightmare match up but most combo decks are very manageable.
Storm is pretty easy with Liliana / Collective Brutality. I haven't played against Company but I figure I have enough removal to shut them down and win at my own pace. The combo decks that have given me trouble in the past have been the graveyard combo decks. Bridge + RIP helps here a lot and then I don't need a very fast clock to win the game from there.
Since I'm sacrificing my own lands and I need to play a couple extra I wanted those to be man lands. Also, I get into "top deck mode" pretty often and want to draw as many relevant cards as possible. And since I'm a slower deck I think 4 vents is correct.
I would think that Bridge isn't very good against you since many of your creatures have 1 power. But maybe Bridge decks are too efficient at emptying their hands. I played an Artifact Prison deck the other day and his bridge was not really an issue except for one turn when I cast Anguished Unmaking on it. I'm guessing there was a lot of luck involved, but that's been my only experience with it on the other side of the table.
I've found that my creature match ups are pretty 50/50 and often coming down to the die roll. With all of my removal it's not impossible to keep up but it's not easy either. Specifically Aether Vial decks are an issue because they usually play 2 creatures a turn when I'm usually playing 1 removal spell a turn. I figured Bridge could give me the extra turn or two to catch up and turn the corner in these match ups. And it's really the graveyard decks that I'm most worried about with Bridge.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
(the dream play being: cast Smallpox; sac Flagstone fetching a plain/Godless shrine; discard souls and sacrifice no creature. Basically losing one + half a card while the opponent lose a creature, a land and a card, AKA 3 cards.)
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)