Or you could simply go up 1 CB in the main. It is the most similar card to LoTV you can find, and it is just great. I play 2/2 CB and LoTV main, and I am superhappy with it. Also, it opens another SB slot for your wraths
That said, BW tokens might not be the perfect shell for it, but some other BW control kind of deck. Not saying the card doesnt fit by any means, only, I feel we are pretty good already building value over time, and I would fill those slots with something more disruptive, like a Liliana, or some additional hand disruption.
My reasoning for including History over Spectral Procession is:
-History is basically Lingering Souls, except:
--it only costs 3 total
--doesn't require black
--takes 2 turns
--creates dudes with vigilance instead of flying
--ends with a BANG
Given that Spectral Procession is usually the first token maker cut, I think HoB can fill in for it pretty easily while also relaxing the requirement for WWW t3, meaning I can afford the Ghost Quarters main required to have any G1 game against Tron/Scapeshift.
Anguished Unmaking is in there to ensure I'm not just 100% cold to an enchantment/planeswalker/artifact G1.
I have 2 Zealous Persecution between main and side due to the possibility of seeing a lot of elves in my meta... Unless they go T1 dork into T2 archdruid and nothing else, ZP can usually take out 2-3 elves and then allow the single target kill spells to mop up until a Wrath can come down.
Does anyone have any specific critique for this list?
I'm a bit confused about why you say that History is basically Lingering Souls, when one of the only things they have in common (as far as I can see) is the mana cost.
Other than that, why do you put Liliana in the side instead of the main? She is such a powerhouse and feels more like a card you'd side out against specific decks, other than the other way around.
What do you use Blessed Alliance against?
I'm a bit confused about why you say that History is basically Lingering Souls, when one of the only things they have in common (as far as I can see) is the mana cost.
Well, given that we're playing them both t3, here's how they play out (assuming no other spells are played)
Lingering Souls:
T3: play Lingering Souls, get 2/2 worth of Flying creatures.
T4: flash back Lingering Souls, get 2/2 worth of Flying creatures for a total of 4/4; swing for 2.
T5: Swing for 4.
Total damage over 3 turns: 6
History of Benalia:
T3: play History, getting 2/2 worth of Vigilance creature.
T4: chapter 2 triggers, getting 2/2 worth of Vigilance creature for a total of 4/4; swing for 2.
T5: chapter 3 triggers, swing for 8.
Total damage over 3 turns: 10
Obviously, Flying is better than Vigilance, and more bodies is better than less bodies... Especially in a deck with Intangible Virtue. However, without Virtue, HOB does 4 more damage over those first 3 turns and after that the numbers are the same. Souls is better for sure, but they're not so different cards.
Other than that, why do you put Liliana in the side instead of the main? She is such a powerhouse and feels more like a card you'd side out against specific decks, other than the other way around.
What do you use Blessed Alliance against?
Lili is in the side because I wanted 3x Sorin and 1x Gideon as Planeswalkers and wanted the 2nd Brutality main and wanted the anguished unmaking main... I could switch that around for sure. I'd really like to have 3 Lilis among the main/sideboard, but I got this one for $60 a few months back and now she's $120 so that plan is on hold. =p
demon of catastrophies could be a good sideboard card for when the opponent boards out creature removal, and Infernal Judgement could be a good SB card against Eldrazi, affinity, and Tron.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Hey guys, first I'd like to say it's great to be back (finally made a Twitch) on the best forum for the best deck of all time. All hail Tokens. I've been reading the past few months of discussion, thanks to you guys for keeping it going. I'm sure there are many lurkers who appreciate your efforts.
Some thoughts:
It seems that the first existential question any Tokens pilot faces is this: How much black?
An *ideal* play might be this:
T1 Discard > T2 Virtue > T3 Spectral/Souls > T4 Sorin/Gideon
Against many decks, this is a very good sequence. Unfortunately, there are many decks which can easily overcome this line of play, like Tron, Storm, Moon and hyper-Aggro. In the handful of LGS I've played at these are all fairly common decks in my experience.
It is my opinion that the critical turn in many matchups, at least for us, is Turn 2. Far too many decks have us dead by the time we're ready to attack. Our black cards only help us so much in this sense. Bitterblossom doesn't really do anything for us until the game gets off the ground, but our problem is usually surviving the early turns as we tend to dominate the mid/late-game. Collective Brutality often falls short as well on account of its failure to a)kill bigger creatures at instant speed or b) get rid of artifacts/PWs/enchantments. I believe that even Liliana is too slow/narrow (not to mention the only card I really want to pitch to her is Lingering Souls).
This is further exacerbated by the the age-old problem of painful/inconsistent mana, especially if we fail to find a Sorin/Vault. Between Shocks/Fetches/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom, we frequently put ourselves in lethal range.
For these reasons, I believe that the optimal BW Tokens build includes only a splash of black. The aforementioned cards are extremely powerful, but I feel that they work better in a Control/Deadguy shell.
With that being said I'd like to propose two inclusions: Mana Tithe and Runed Halo. I've found these two cards to be extremely powerful in playtesting, especially in tandem with discard.
First, Mana Tithe: This card is perfect in the early game, where most decks are looking to curve out. Unlike discard, it can be used against opposing draws/interaction. Countering any T1-3 play gives us a huge tempo swing. Sometimes all we need is to trip up Bogles/Tron/Infect/Burn/Elves. In addition to the gotcha! factor, many decks will play extremely conservatively after having their critical play countered. As the art on the card implies, Mana Tithe effectively swings the game for us on the draw. The momentum gained by countering a T2 play with our T1 can't be understated.
Secondly, Runed Halo. This is often considered a sideboard card, but in our deck it is a powerhouse mainboard. First of all, very few decks can handle a resolved Halo, especially Game 1. One of our primary issues against creature decks is chumping with valuable tokens and failing to close games out as a result. With Halo we can blank multiple ground attackers while our flyers clean up with ease, not to mention the complete shut-down effect this has on decks like Hollow One, Shadow, Storm, Infect, and Bogles. It also deals with a lot of pesky cards like Skred, Valakut and manlands (and in cases where targeted removal isn't enough like Dredge/Living End). After all, we like to nullify opposing removal while maximizing our own. The problem I find with having a lot of removal is that sometimes it's dead, and other times it's still not enough. Halo provides a much bigger net while freeing up valuable space in our deck.
I personally run 4 Mana Tithe and 2-3 Runed Halo depending on the week and I am always happy to see them. There is no greater satisfaction than countering a Cryptic Command for W or naming Gutshot with Halo. Halo is a solid topdeck, while Tithe is usually no worse than discard. I like to play a single Pack Rat, which is a superior discard outlet in the late-game (though I can see an argument for keeping around a Collective Brutality or two).
Regarding Spectral Procession: I used to dislike it for many reasons previous posters mentioned, but now I can't live without it (I run 3). Three (often 2/2+ vigilance) flyers for 3 is incredibly useful for blocking/closing out games (not to mention synergy with Legion's Landing and Windbrisk Heights, if you run it.
This list essentially differs from others in that there are Runed Halos and Mana Tithes in place of additional discard/removal. Rather than traditional tapout Tokens, Turns 1 and 2 often involve jostling for board presence, and having the ability to hold up either a counterspell or flash tokens T2 comes in handy. As mentioned previously, Discard, Tithe and Halo work quite well together. I love having a singleton Dismember and Anguished Unmaking as backup. Path and Tithe are a nonbo in theory, but in practice hardly ever get in each other's way (plus I like having an emergency fetch option in Path). Zealous Persecution comes in handy just enough to make the cut, serving as an occasional surprise blowout/boardwipe, though I don't feel justified in running more than one.
The Sideboard is a perpetual work in progress, though I'm pretty set on the Disenchants, Timely Reinforcements, and Duress. Other contenders include a 4th Runed Halo, Surgical Extraction, Kambal, Pithing Needle, and perhaps more Duress.
Hello guys! I'm trying the new History of Benalia right now. T3 HOB, T4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems great! I can see that someone here is still not sold on this. I still don't know what to think. So far it's been good, but I need to play it more
Hello guys! I'm trying the new History of Benalia right now. T3 HOB, T4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems great! I can see that someone here is still not sold on this. I still don't know what to think. So far it's been good, but I need to play it more
Its not that HOB is bad. Its just being pitted against some of the best cards at that point in the curve in our deck. You're up against Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession, which make 4 and 3 flying bodies respectively. HOB suffers against both these cards for many reasons:
1. It produces your bodies a lot slower, meaning your opponent has quite a bit more time to react especially in the early turns.
2. Intangible Virtue, the key card of the deck, is less effective, because the keyword offered is now redundant, and it only gives you 2 extra power for HOB, while it boosts a lingering souls output by 4 (turning 4 1/1s into 4 2/2s) and spectral procession by 3 (similar math).
3. The bodies don't fly, which is a huge drawback in this deck. Your tokens get walled by Shadows, Goyfs, hollow ones, Champion of Parishes... well basically a lot of common creatures in modern.
4. The number of bodies produced is 2. Which is not very efficient. Offensively speaking, 3 mana for 2 bodies is only so-so, lingering souls being an exception because it can go on to make another 2 and is resilient to discard. And you get the bodies across 2 turns instead of both at once which would allow an awesome curve into an anthem or Sorin. Defensively its also bad because we win a lot of games by chumping with our tokens against aggro/shadow/hollow one decks to buy time for our lategame stuff to come online or to find answers.
Overall, HOB is actually an OK card. Its problem is it just doesn't justify the replacement of the existing cards at the 3 cmc slot. Intangible Virtue into Spectral Procession/Lingering souls and Vice versa is insane. Likewise Souls/Procession into Sorin often just soft-wins against a number of creature based aggro decks by skewing the race in an absurd direction.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It's awesome to see more people coming around to Start // Finish. I originally didn't value the card highly either until I started playing it and now I'm 100% glad I made the switch from Spectral. You might find though (as I have recently) that you're a bit overloaded on removal after you make this switch; after swapping in 3 of them I've gone lower on Paths and Pushes, especially since I run two Collective Brutality maindeck too. Obviously the 'Finish' half isn't as powerful as our 1 mana removal spells but bringing in 3 of them is definitely an excuse to shave one other removal, I feel.
Overall, this definitely seems to be the main 'shape' of our deck these days, although I seem to be alone in running higher on the Gideons, I just love that card so much. I seem to win basically every game where I play him, not so much with Sorin unless the lifelink is super relevant. I'm considering going up to 3 Gideons, think I'm gonna buy the third copy tomorrow and try it out for a bit.
It's a shame that DOM didn't really bring any new toys for us to play with. Looking forward to the Orzhov set when we visit Ravnica again though!
In other news, I've been testing a Mardu build online and it's been very interesting. If we cut some specific things to include red with Faithless Looting, Boros Charm, Mardu Charm and Goblin Rabblemaster we seem to retain our overall effectiveness and resilience but gain quite a bit of power; Rabblemaster is a lot of fun with Virtue in play and a Zealous Persecution in your hand
I'm also running two Gideons and I like it. I'm surprised how often I play him and just want to emblem, based on the game state.
Playing Gideon and exploding him into the emblem right away feels bad usually cause you're essentially playing a 4 mana glorious anthem which is not ideal. Obviously sometimes that's the correct call for the situation and Gideon is there over the anthem because of the versatility but it's hard to not want to at least squeeze some tokens out of him first before crunching him up. Shame that we can't safely +1 him to keep him and get the anthem reliably as opponents will usually have dead removal that can suddenly be live to take him out.
I took this deck to SCG Modern Regionals Chicago, and I did pretty bad. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-61-scg-regionals/
I thought the decks I would see would be the same as my local meta. I was expecting Jund and Tron but what I played against was mostly Mardu, then Jenskai and death and taxes. I think my match up against Mardu is solid but I took out the Zealous Persecutions.
I need more practice against D&T and Jeskai because I am not exactly sure what to do against those decks. Here is my new list that I plan to bring to SCG Indianapolis. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-612/
I took out dampening sphere because I don't suspect I will see a lot of storm and it has not been useful to me against tron. I figure that if I play my curve, and buff my guys, then I can out race my opponent.
I believe you want to go to the more aggro version of the deck if you are talking about outracing them. I would then go 4 RtA, some number of Legion's landing, 1 or 2 gids maindeck. Probably you dont want BB in that build, though. An aggro shell would look like:
If you want to go for a more controllish version, check the list in my signature, for example (there are many other in this forum). Staying somewhere in the middle is not recommendable.
I have switched from Tokens to BW Control about half a year ago so I can give some insight on both archetypes.
First of all, both have a terrible combo matchup, as neither Tokens nor Planeswalkers make for a fast clock. Gideon of the Trials can steal some games against something like Ad Nauseum or Lantern with his Emblem (and he is great against Burn), but if Tokens gets the right mix between tokens and anthem effects, their clock is slightly faster I have to say.
Against creature decks, in my experience the BW Control list is a little more favoured than Tokens. Even with anthems the tokens get outclassed really fast by delve threats or humans or Hollow Ones, etc. A curve like Wall of Omens into a Gideon into a wrath deals conveniently with most aggro and midrange strategies and allows for faster pressure afterwards with a 4/4 or 5/5 Gideon.
Both archetypes grind well and have decent control matchups. In the end, I feel like both decks are somewhere in low Tier 2 with Tokens having a little more linear playstyle. The biggest upside and also the reason I switched to BW control is that it minimizes draws that do nothing on their own. Intangible Virtue or a Sorin on a board with no tokens feels really bad. Finally, in my list I play some number of Wall of Omens and Night's Whisper to smooth out draws and have a better chance to draw sideboard cards.
I believe you want to go to the more aggro version of the deck if you are talking about outracing them. I would then go 4 RtA, some number of Legion's landing, 1 or 2 gids maindeck. Probably you dont want BB in that build, though. An aggro shell would look like:
If you want to go for a more controllish version, check the list in my signature, for example (there are many other in this forum). Staying somewhere in the middle is not recommendable.
I'm mostly a Standard player, and I love flipping Legion's Landing t3. I was kinda sad Chainwhirler keeps me from doing this on Standard, so I felt like I could give a try on an old friend. So I started tweaking BW Tokens to support Landing+Raise the Alarm. I'm on a near that is near this aggro one you posted, but I believe Bitterblossom is too good to cut. Also, I don't like how Zealous Persecution can go from a really bad card, when you have few or none tokens, to a win-out-of-nowhere card. Let's get to the list:
I'm liking this list a lot, but only playing Friendly Leagues on MTGO. I will start playing it on my LGS next month, and probably give it a try on Comp Leagues. It can go aggro against unfair decks quite nicely, while disrupting it, and can grindy midrange and control decks with Bitterblossom and PWs. My only concern is the interaction split. Sometimes I feel I need more discard, and other times more removal. This might be the hardest point on tunning this "aggro", as you called, way of playing tokens.
What are your thoughts on my list and, specially, why you are cutting Bitterblossom on this approach?
Also, I totally forgot Sorin LOI exists! He can be another adition to the PW count.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Personally, I'm testing HOB using this list:
1x Start//Finish
3x History of Benalia
3x Bitterblossom
1x Legion's Landing
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
4x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
4x Windswept Heath
2x Godless Shrine
1x Fetid Heath
2x Shambling Vent
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Disenchant
2x Wrath of God
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
3x Stony Silence
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Auriok Champion
My reasoning for including History over Spectral Procession is:
-History is basically Lingering Souls, except:
--it only costs 3 total
--doesn't require black
--takes 2 turns
--creates dudes with vigilance instead of flying
--ends with a BANG
Given that Spectral Procession is usually the first token maker cut, I think HoB can fill in for it pretty easily while also relaxing the requirement for WWW t3, meaning I can afford the Ghost Quarters main required to have any G1 game against Tron/Scapeshift.
Anguished Unmaking is in there to ensure I'm not just 100% cold to an enchantment/planeswalker/artifact G1.
I have 2 Zealous Persecution between main and side due to the possibility of seeing a lot of elves in my meta... Unless they go T1 dork into T2 archdruid and nothing else, ZP can usually take out 2-3 elves and then allow the single target kill spells to mop up until a Wrath can come down.
Does anyone have any specific critique for this list?
Other than that, why do you put Liliana in the side instead of the main? She is such a powerhouse and feels more like a card you'd side out against specific decks, other than the other way around.
What do you use Blessed Alliance against?
Well, given that we're playing them both t3, here's how they play out (assuming no other spells are played)
Lingering Souls:
T3: play Lingering Souls, get 2/2 worth of Flying creatures.
T4: flash back Lingering Souls, get 2/2 worth of Flying creatures for a total of 4/4; swing for 2.
T5: Swing for 4.
Total damage over 3 turns: 6
History of Benalia:
T3: play History, getting 2/2 worth of Vigilance creature.
T4: chapter 2 triggers, getting 2/2 worth of Vigilance creature for a total of 4/4; swing for 2.
T5: chapter 3 triggers, swing for 8.
Total damage over 3 turns: 10
Obviously, Flying is better than Vigilance, and more bodies is better than less bodies... Especially in a deck with Intangible Virtue. However, without Virtue, HOB does 4 more damage over those first 3 turns and after that the numbers are the same. Souls is better for sure, but they're not so different cards.
Lili is in the side because I wanted 3x Sorin and 1x Gideon as Planeswalkers and wanted the 2nd Brutality main and wanted the anguished unmaking main... I could switch that around for sure. I'd really like to have 3 Lilis among the main/sideboard, but I got this one for $60 a few months back and now she's $120 so that plan is on hold. =p
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Some thoughts:
It seems that the first existential question any Tokens pilot faces is this: How much black?
Black offers the following (among others):
Bitterblossom
Fatal Push
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Collective Brutality
Liliana of the Veil
An *ideal* play might be this:
T1 Discard > T2 Virtue > T3 Spectral/Souls > T4 Sorin/Gideon
Against many decks, this is a very good sequence. Unfortunately, there are many decks which can easily overcome this line of play, like Tron, Storm, Moon and hyper-Aggro. In the handful of LGS I've played at these are all fairly common decks in my experience.
It is my opinion that the critical turn in many matchups, at least for us, is Turn 2. Far too many decks have us dead by the time we're ready to attack. Our black cards only help us so much in this sense. Bitterblossom doesn't really do anything for us until the game gets off the ground, but our problem is usually surviving the early turns as we tend to dominate the mid/late-game. Collective Brutality often falls short as well on account of its failure to a)kill bigger creatures at instant speed or b) get rid of artifacts/PWs/enchantments. I believe that even Liliana is too slow/narrow (not to mention the only card I really want to pitch to her is Lingering Souls).
This is further exacerbated by the the age-old problem of painful/inconsistent mana, especially if we fail to find a Sorin/Vault. Between Shocks/Fetches/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom, we frequently put ourselves in lethal range.
For these reasons, I believe that the optimal BW Tokens build includes only a splash of black. The aforementioned cards are extremely powerful, but I feel that they work better in a Control/Deadguy shell.
With that being said I'd like to propose two inclusions: Mana Tithe and Runed Halo. I've found these two cards to be extremely powerful in playtesting, especially in tandem with discard.
First, Mana Tithe: This card is perfect in the early game, where most decks are looking to curve out. Unlike discard, it can be used against opposing draws/interaction. Countering any T1-3 play gives us a huge tempo swing. Sometimes all we need is to trip up Bogles/Tron/Infect/Burn/Elves. In addition to the gotcha! factor, many decks will play extremely conservatively after having their critical play countered. As the art on the card implies, Mana Tithe effectively swings the game for us on the draw. The momentum gained by countering a T2 play with our T1 can't be understated.
Secondly, Runed Halo. This is often considered a sideboard card, but in our deck it is a powerhouse mainboard. First of all, very few decks can handle a resolved Halo, especially Game 1. One of our primary issues against creature decks is chumping with valuable tokens and failing to close games out as a result. With Halo we can blank multiple ground attackers while our flyers clean up with ease, not to mention the complete shut-down effect this has on decks like Hollow One, Shadow, Storm, Infect, and Bogles. It also deals with a lot of pesky cards like Skred, Valakut and manlands (and in cases where targeted removal isn't enough like Dredge/Living End). After all, we like to nullify opposing removal while maximizing our own. The problem I find with having a lot of removal is that sometimes it's dead, and other times it's still not enough. Halo provides a much bigger net while freeing up valuable space in our deck.
I personally run 4 Mana Tithe and 2-3 Runed Halo depending on the week and I am always happy to see them. There is no greater satisfaction than countering a Cryptic Command for W or naming Gutshot with Halo. Halo is a solid topdeck, while Tithe is usually no worse than discard. I like to play a single Pack Rat, which is a superior discard outlet in the late-game (though I can see an argument for keeping around a Collective Brutality or two).
Regarding Spectral Procession: I used to dislike it for many reasons previous posters mentioned, but now I can't live without it (I run 3). Three (often 2/2+ vigilance) flyers for 3 is incredibly useful for blocking/closing out games (not to mention synergy with Legion's Landing and Windbrisk Heights, if you run it.
Thanks again to everyone, and happy Tokening!
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
Gladly!
Tokens/Accessory
2x Legion's Landing
3x Raise the Alarm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Spectral Procession
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Pack Rat
Interaction/Disruption
4x Mana Tithe
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Path to Exile
1x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Anguished Unmaking
3x Runed Halo
1x Zealous Persecution
Land:
4x Marsh Flats
3x Flooded Strand
2x Godless Shrine
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Shambling Vent
1x Windbrisk Heights
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Westvale Abbey
2x Plains
1x Swamp
SB:
3x Disenchant
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Damping Sphere
2x Duress
This list essentially differs from others in that there are Runed Halos and Mana Tithes in place of additional discard/removal. Rather than traditional tapout Tokens, Turns 1 and 2 often involve jostling for board presence, and having the ability to hold up either a counterspell or flash tokens T2 comes in handy. As mentioned previously, Discard, Tithe and Halo work quite well together. I love having a singleton Dismember and Anguished Unmaking as backup. Path and Tithe are a nonbo in theory, but in practice hardly ever get in each other's way (plus I like having an emergency fetch option in Path). Zealous Persecution comes in handy just enough to make the cut, serving as an occasional surprise blowout/boardwipe, though I don't feel justified in running more than one.
The Sideboard is a perpetual work in progress, though I'm pretty set on the Disenchants, Timely Reinforcements, and Duress. Other contenders include a 4th Runed Halo, Surgical Extraction, Kambal, Pithing Needle, and perhaps more Duress.
Its not that HOB is bad. Its just being pitted against some of the best cards at that point in the curve in our deck. You're up against Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession, which make 4 and 3 flying bodies respectively. HOB suffers against both these cards for many reasons:
1. It produces your bodies a lot slower, meaning your opponent has quite a bit more time to react especially in the early turns.
2. Intangible Virtue, the key card of the deck, is less effective, because the keyword offered is now redundant, and it only gives you 2 extra power for HOB, while it boosts a lingering souls output by 4 (turning 4 1/1s into 4 2/2s) and spectral procession by 3 (similar math).
3. The bodies don't fly, which is a huge drawback in this deck. Your tokens get walled by Shadows, Goyfs, hollow ones, Champion of Parishes... well basically a lot of common creatures in modern.
4. The number of bodies produced is 2. Which is not very efficient. Offensively speaking, 3 mana for 2 bodies is only so-so, lingering souls being an exception because it can go on to make another 2 and is resilient to discard. And you get the bodies across 2 turns instead of both at once which would allow an awesome curve into an anthem or Sorin. Defensively its also bad because we win a lot of games by chumping with our tokens against aggro/shadow/hollow one decks to buy time for our lategame stuff to come online or to find answers.
Overall, HOB is actually an OK card. Its problem is it just doesn't justify the replacement of the existing cards at the 3 cmc slot. Intangible Virtue into Spectral Procession/Lingering souls and Vice versa is insane. Likewise Souls/Procession into Sorin often just soft-wins against a number of creature based aggro decks by skewing the race in an absurd direction.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I'm also running two Gideons and I like it. I'm surprised how often I play him and just want to emblem, based on the game state.
I took this deck to SCG Modern Regionals Chicago, and I did pretty bad.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-61-scg-regionals/
I thought the decks I would see would be the same as my local meta. I was expecting Jund and Tron but what I played against was mostly Mardu, then Jenskai and death and taxes. I think my match up against Mardu is solid but I took out the Zealous Persecutions.
I need more practice against D&T and Jeskai because I am not exactly sure what to do against those decks. Here is my new list that I plan to bring to SCG Indianapolis.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-612/
I took out dampening sphere because I don't suspect I will see a lot of storm and it has not been useful to me against tron. I figure that if I play my curve, and buff my guys, then I can out race my opponent.
Any thoughts?
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Westvale Abbey
3x Windswept Heath
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Thoughtseize
4x Intangible Virtue
If you want to go for a more controllish version, check the list in my signature, for example (there are many other in this forum). Staying somewhere in the middle is not recommendable.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
First of all, both have a terrible combo matchup, as neither Tokens nor Planeswalkers make for a fast clock. Gideon of the Trials can steal some games against something like Ad Nauseum or Lantern with his Emblem (and he is great against Burn), but if Tokens gets the right mix between tokens and anthem effects, their clock is slightly faster I have to say.
Against creature decks, in my experience the BW Control list is a little more favoured than Tokens. Even with anthems the tokens get outclassed really fast by delve threats or humans or Hollow Ones, etc. A curve like Wall of Omens into a Gideon into a wrath deals conveniently with most aggro and midrange strategies and allows for faster pressure afterwards with a 4/4 or 5/5 Gideon.
Both archetypes grind well and have decent control matchups. In the end, I feel like both decks are somewhere in low Tier 2 with Tokens having a little more linear playstyle. The biggest upside and also the reason I switched to BW control is that it minimizes draws that do nothing on their own. Intangible Virtue or a Sorin on a board with no tokens feels really bad. Finally, in my list I play some number of Wall of Omens and Night's Whisper to smooth out draws and have a better chance to draw sideboard cards.
Hope I could help a little @tarotplz
I'm mostly a Standard player, and I love flipping Legion's Landing t3. I was kinda sad Chainwhirler keeps me from doing this on Standard, so I felt like I could give a try on an old friend. So I started tweaking BW Tokens to support Landing+Raise the Alarm. I'm on a near that is near this aggro one you posted, but I believe Bitterblossom is too good to cut. Also, I don't like how Zealous Persecution can go from a really bad card, when you have few or none tokens, to a win-out-of-nowhere card. Let's get to the list:
1x Flooded Strand
4x Concealed Courtyard
3x Shambling Vent
2x Godless Shrine
1x Fetid Heath
3x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Field of Ruin
1x Westvale Abbey
1x Collective Brutality
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Legion's Landing
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Bitterblossom
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Auriok Champion
3x Rest in Peace
1x Collective Brutality
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Celestial Purge
I'm liking this list a lot, but only playing Friendly Leagues on MTGO. I will start playing it on my LGS next month, and probably give it a try on Comp Leagues. It can go aggro against unfair decks quite nicely, while disrupting it, and can grindy midrange and control decks with Bitterblossom and PWs. My only concern is the interaction split. Sometimes I feel I need more discard, and other times more removal. This might be the hardest point on tunning this "aggro", as you called, way of playing tokens.
What are your thoughts on my list and, specially, why you are cutting Bitterblossom on this approach?
Also, I totally forgot Sorin LOI exists! He can be another adition to the PW count.
Then we could side them back out for game 3 if the opponent sides removal back in.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB